[WinterRose]

I don't understand my pdoc. He told me that I've perfected the art of projective identification and I make him hurt and he doesn't like pain (no one does). He said he felt that things were dangerous. Wish I knew what his fears are about our relationship. I asked him since I make him feel my hurt couldn't that help him help me stop hurting? He said it was complicated a transferance/countertransference thing. He's not sure if we can work our relationship out, but is willing to still give it a go. I want to know what's dangerous. I want to know what went wrong. I want to know how I broke things between us - but maybe I didn't - maybe it's just always been this way because of the way I connect with him and he didn't know what he would be getting into at the beginning. I wish he could communicate better.

I've emailed him saying that I don't understand what his fears are and that maybe if I did, things could be worked out. Next appointment is next Tuesday. Hopefully he won't talk too much and we can explore this in addition to changing the medications.

[Cheri]

It really bothers me that he's not taking responsibility for his own feelings, but instead blaming you for the projective identification and trying to make you responsible for his feelings. Have you ever considered that maybe you haven't perfected the "art of projective identification," and that the negative countertransference issue may stem from a problem residing in him? Now you feel hurt and guilty, and he gets to disown his feelings. Sounds like he needs therapy, or maybe more supervision.

[WinterRose]

I'm wondering. I was having the thought after our last meeting - and it took a while before I was able to have the thought - that maybe I hadn't done anything wrong, he did. So why should I feel bad - he knows that I have problems so why should he be angy that my emails were 'nuts'. (I was paniced and said his office was trying to kill me and wanted me dead.) He did admit at the last meeting that sometimes he's a bad psychiatrist and sometimes he's a good psychiatrist. And that I shouldn't make him out to be all good - which I do most of the time. Guess I'm making progress having stirrings of anger towards him.

[okiedokie]

Hi Rose,
Also, you posted that you wished that HE could communicate better!

Sounds like he's right. He's a bad psychiatrist.

I'm really glad you're checking the facts about this. Just because a pdoc tells you something, doesn't necessarily make it true. Get a second opinion! See another pdoc, explain the situation, and get that 2nd opinion. My guess is that you'll be told that what your current pdoc has told you is entirely inappropriate.
Take good care,
Okie

WinterRose, why not ask him to explain his thoughts much more for help in understanding.

If you want to, you can read about transference/counter-transference many places, including this site: www.guidetopsychology.com .

Some types of therapists don't encourage or welcome transference and some can't handle it or can't handle it well. It sounds to me as if he may be acknowledging his own difficulties or boundaries.

I hope you'll talk much more about this as with any topic that needs to be expanded on until you feel comfortable.

ECHOES

[MissCharlotte]

Winter,

I think your pdoc owes you an explanation for his statements.

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, maybe nobody did anything wrong. Maybe what is needed is a clearing of the air.

((Winter))

Best of luck.

[Gracey]

I don't know. . .at the risk of sounding like the devils advocate here, I guess what concerns me most of all is that he is so incredibly OPEN with you about his own issues. Ethical issues abound here. While I take issue with him telling you that YOU make him feel a certain way, the entire situation *might* be an example of a deeper relationship with therapists gone awry. I've noticed that we tend to elevate our T's and pdocs to this level of near perfection; we want to know that they think of us outside of therapy, we want them to encourage our feelings for them, etc. At times, that can be beneficial, and I'm not saying this is the case here. . .but like the other thread about "red flags" it seems perhaps there may be warning indicators prior to a disolving relationship in therapy. What you're experiencing *might* be those flags.

I know what I've written here is not popular and I'm sorry if I've hurt any feelings. But, it raises the concern that a pdoc considers his client to be "dangerous" or is it the relationship that is dangerous?

anyway, that's my two cents. . .

[WinterRose]

thank you all - lots to think about - I'm going to get clarification from pdoc and definitely speak with T about this - thank you for helping me be strong

I am not offended Gracey - I appreciate hearing all the different takes on the situation. It helps me sort things out and be more rational so I can be more proactive and protect myself better.

On the up side, this pdoc - relationship good or bad - had really kicked up my therapy with T in a good way and we have made real progress because of him which would not have happened otherwise. I know that T felt stymied and like we were getting no where and it is possible that the thought was being played with that I might need to go somewhere else.

I still may need to go somewhere else with one or both of them - but I'll have to work up to it, and get help to actually do it. Change is horrifying for me when it is at that level because of some of my issues. I really freak out and start acting out in ways that make providers not want to work with me at all and that leaves me stranded. Just thinking about it causes panic.

Hmm.. I have mixed feelings about this.

I think it is okay that your pdoc lets you know that in your relationship together, he hurts. My T let me know this a couple of weeks ago. It allows us to see that our Ts/Pdocs are human, they have feeling towards us, too.

However, it doesn't sound like your doc told you this in the most gentle way possible.

What concerns me, is not so much the countertransference on his part, but his open admission to having it, and not being sure if it can be worked out. Of course Ts and Pdocs have countertransference, but it's up to them to be aware of it and work through it.

I think it is essential that you find out what is "dangerous." When my T told me that he felt hurt, I too, felt that I "broke" things between us. It became a wonderful chance for the two of us to explore my overall relational patterns.

I really hope that what is going on with your pdoc can be used to your advantage and healing. I wish he would communicate better with you, too.

[lauren_helene]

From what you write, it doesn't seem like he handled the situation well. I don't like that he is blaming you. You are not the only person in the room. The 'relationship' is bringing something to the surface that needs to be talked through.

I am wondering something for anyone in the group to answer, if a T or a p-doc feels danger what should he/she do? I'm guessing one option is to refer the client to someone else but what if he/she doesn't want to do that as in winter's case?

I'm glad he hasn't just referred you to someone it does seem like he wants to work it out but I'm not sure he knows how...

IMO, and after reading The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom, a therapist should have his own therapist available to him, for difficulty with counter-transference as well as for other issues that may arise for the therapist. It's a very intense and demanding profession.

[WinterRose]

He does want to see if we can work it out. I'm not sure what his fears are, but I agree that he should counsel with someone. If we can't work it out and we are no longer a fit, I will insist that he help me find someone that will be a fit because I've connected better with him than anyone else. I don't want to go blindly to someone else. I also like his philosophy which I'm not sure many psychologists share.

Next appointment Tuesday.

[sunrise]

Winterrose, this sounds like the sort of thing that therapists are supposed to use their supervision for. I think it is within your rights to ask him if he has supervision for his problem with your case. Is he consulting with another therapist about his difficulties? If he isn't, I would be very worried, because it sounds like he is not handling his countertransference well at all. I hope you will ask him this very important question. You deserve an answer.

I found his statements to you about the pain and hurt you have caused him and your dangerous relationship to not be therapeutic at all. It sounds to me like he is losing it. Who's the patient here?

Has he told you that you "broke" the relationship or is that your feeling?

It sounds like you have both a therapist and a pdoc. Is the pdoc just for meds? If you feel comfortable with the therapist, maybe you could just switch to a new pdoc for meds and continue productive therapy with the therapist.

Good luck. Very difficult situation.

[WinterRose]

It's my feeling that I broke something. I do have a therapist and pdoc. And, yes, perhaps it is time for a change. But it is hard because this pdoc has really contributed to therapy in an unintended way. I will be asking about if he's seeking counsel himself. I just found it very odd that he would use the word 'dangerous.' It confuses me because I have no idea what he means. I think he's stumbling around as far as acting like a therapist goes, but he is a good pdoc and thinks differently than others which has lead to some good, but maybe uncommon, drug combinations for me. The real hard part is not knowing if I can find another one like him with the same philosophies about mental health. At least he treats me like a person and interacts with me and has a relationship with his patients - whereas other pdocs just dish out the meds and don't always bother to 'know' who they're treating beyond their symptoms. We are more than the sum of our symptoms - and treating symptoms is not the same as treating us.

isnt the whole point is to have someone identify with you. You were doing your work and doing your job in therapy. If he can't take it, seems to me he is in the wrong job or hasnt worked on his own issues. Man.. thats really bad

[WinterRose]

OK - Saw him today. Why do things always seem saner in person? Anyways, he's worried about boundaries and me wanting to become friends - he wants to have a professional relationship. He's redefining a little: now he's an MD, but he said that he likes to treat all his patients like co-workers - that's the way he works. He's concerned that I want someone to talk to and be friends with and he can't do that. This feels dangerous to him - the boundary problem. It makes him feel like he has to protect himself. Anyways - nothing seemed amiss today in person, like I said. Maybe we shouldn't talk on the phone when he's tired or just when he's tired or worked up. Hmmm. OK - still feeling confused, but not concerned/worried like I was. I think my pdocs not sane. To take off on something he sometimes says: he's in the ward next door.

[WinterRose]

PS - I get to remember he's a pdoc and not a T. He was emphasizing that. He wants to stick to the physical side of things and the way the mind works.

[lauren_helene]

Do you need to find a therapist then if he will only talk about the physical aspect of your needs?

Well, I guess the question is what was discussed early on? Was therapy part of the relationship or just a med check?

[WinterRose]

I think that's part of the problem, almeda. We didn't discuss it early on - so it wasn't concrete and seemed to be both. Now it is more defined.

Not sure if my relationship with this pdoc will continue though. He called today upset about an email I sent him - he keeps feeling attacked. I was expressing how frustrated I get at appointments because I worry about the time and getting everything covered - that it sometimes feels like a fight with him to stay focused - a power struggle.

My interpretation of what he said today is that he gave me an hour and I got what I wanted (meds & a letter) so everything worked out - implying that I was not appreciative of him. Well, he went over - the appointment is supposed to be 30 minutes. And he was late because he went over with the previous person. Though I didn't bring it up, it was during work hours for me so I had to work longer to make up for it. Then I get nervous because I know there's another client behind me (they were late or cancelled so this time it wasn't so bad, but he was still late for the next person). So he's saying that I should probably go somewhere else because this is the way he works and I'm having a problem with it. Then by the end of the conversation he's saying that maybe I'm right about what I wrote and others are too shy to say anything and perhaps he needs to work on how he runs things. He apologized, I think he was apologizing - sounded like it, for his hurt ego.

So I guess, I get to think about why I'm staying with him or if I should move on. We keep having so much conflict. I think part of it is that I'm not being kind in my language when I write - that I'm too mean.

Even if what I write is true - and sometimes it's just me expressing my emotions or opinions - I could be kinder in my expression. It won't serve me well in relationships to communicate in such an unkind fashion. It is not very charitable, nor does it help the other person to listen to me. All it does is create conflict. Conflict is not communication.

[lauren_helene]

The more I think about this and read what you write regarding his communicating to you, I'm thinking you need a therapist. I'm not sure your p-doc is equipped to handle what is happening with you.

But a therapist is...just my .02. I think your p-doc is trying real hard but this isn't going to be good for you long term.

[purplemoon]

WinterRose,

I have to agree with Alemda, I think a t would be better. P-docs are great for what they do but very few can do what a T does. Many work in conjunction with each other to make sure that the client gets what they need. Have you considered a T?

[MissCharlotte]

((WinterRose))

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now he's an MD, but he said that he likes to treat all his patients like co-workers - that's the way he works.

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He's concerned that I want someone to talk to and be friends with and he can't do that.

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So, let me get this right? He can blur the lines but you can't? That's crap.

I don't think it's good for either of you to switch roles. The only appropriate relatinoship is a doctor-patient relationship.....this way it's ethical, and professional.

I think you should seriously consider changing. You deserve to be treated professionally and shouldn't have to question yourself because he can't behave the way he should.

Sorry if I sound so prissy, but this kind of ticked me off. You are the patient and you should not have to wonder what role to play.

[WinterRose]

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So, let me get this right? He can blur the lines but you can't? That's crap.

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Sister - I love you. You just made me smile. Thanks for being on my side. I see T next Tuesday and we will be talking about the pdoc issue for sure.

The good side about the whole thing is that it helps me see what I'm working on more clearly. This whole thing has really made me see how splitting and projective identification and transference/counter-transference are going on with me. The pdoc has brought out a lot of issues - been a catalyst really. But, yes, it may be time to move on. The hard part is finding someone else who meets the right criteria and overcoming my attachment.