Left feeling unstable

I do see that he was triggering,many times purposely,to see my reactions.Some of them felt so heartless and cruel to me,but in reality,that was just my perception and he wasn't intentionally being heartless and cruel.He knew exactly what he was doing,I just didn't realize it at the time.

This seems to me to be one camp... where the t believes that they need to push or tough love the client through growth. And then there is another camp that believes that the client will need less from them as growth progresses and will naturally pull away - grow up and leave home. [not to say that there is only these camps, and yes this seems overly simplified]

I hope my t is in the later camp not the former. I want to be allowed to grow up at my rate knowing that my t is there each step of the way, being supportive and caring.

Then again, it might all be based on what the t thinks the client needs, which might be where some of the inconsistencies come from with some t's.

I think the big problems come, like in your case, Skies, when a T seems to be more from the latter camp, then suddenly shifts to a tough love approach without warning. That's naturally going to be jarring and painful, especially if it repeats a pattern that happened at some point in a client's life.

...I tol him he took that concept of withholding mirroring, validation, empathy, etc. too far.

How many relationships (sexual, friendships, etc.) do you know that are an obvious mismatch and go on for way too long, hurting one or both parties? It happens constantly.

If you think this guy is driving you to a breakdown or is starting down that path by overestimating your ego strength, then I still say what I did before, he's bad news. Competency and harm are not mutually exclusive in any practitioner.

Do you think he will listen to you and change or accommodate to your needs or wishes?

When I read stories like this, I feel so glad that I have a T that can manage 'it all'.
I remember early on in my therapy with her, I was in a psychotic state emailing back & forth one evening with her. I can't remember now what I was saying, but it felt extremely urgent back & forth.

I remember talking about it later with T and me saying I was afraid she wouldn't reply and/or that she would leave me because of what was going on. I remember her saying of course it affected her as a person, but it was part of the work.
She understands it is all about the work. My state may have been upsetting for her, but she knows it's not about her. No rupture.
I don't tell this stories to brag. I tell them so others can compare and decide whether what they've got is enough for them, or whether to look for a T that gets and understands 'THE WORK'.

T1 began to handle boundaries in a more and more withdrawing way because I was attached to him and he was struggling to handle my feelings. I felt worse than when I started. There was more going on in his personal life which contributed and I wasn't getting effective therapy any more. It's nothing to do with him being a good or bad person or anything. It wasn't working. I wasn't getting therapy.
The question I had to ask myself (and I believe we should all ask ourselves in therapy) is "is this therapeutic?". And like my situation with T1, what you describe doesn't sound therapeutic.
I left. It was traumatic, painful and like re-experiencing traumatic loss all over again. I mourned him for a year. But it was the best decision I ever made for myself and my therapy. I'm so glad I took that step. So while it is immediately more traumatic to leave, if you can weather that storm with the solid support of a good therapist, it will get better. I no longer wish for any kind of relationship with T1.
Sending you

But the frame should be there to help YOU to do the therapy work you need to do. I suggest asking why this frame is exactly the way it is. What does he suggest you do when you feel unstable next time and feel the need to email. What could you do instead? Also, have you told him you can't afford the second session? Then, if he suggests booking another session, you can ask him how does he imagine it when he knows that you can't afford it. Don't let this discussion stay abstract and high level. It has to go very specific. Otherwise I really don't know what you are talking about at all.

It feels the same for me-trauma. And I sit here and think it has nothing to do with him. Intellectually, I can separate this out as not having to do with him personally, but that doesn't change the trauma feelings. And I wonder-if your brain is feeling the same trauma feelings from childhood, does that mean your brain doesn't know the difference; hence, you are actually being re-traumatized by feeling the original trauma feelings?


Yes, I agree, I think that he might view the emails as acting out, so it can help bring all the feelings into the sessions. So I'm ok with that-in that sense.

I've told him I couldn't afford a 2nd session. He realizes this limitation but has asked me if I could take a loan out. I did tell him recently that I am taking a consolidation loan out to pay medical costs and other past debt. I can use some of that loan money, very little, but it's already stretched too thin and I have no savings or disposable income.

Your advice about getting to the details is really, really helpful. We have been talking about the abstract, which causes my mind to fill in the blanks. I will ask for details next time.

I don't think there's much i can do instead. I have schizoid anxieties, so just a quick touch base with him can really make a lot of difference.

All relationships can "go wrong" it's very easy to see a person and how great their other relationships are looking in. You diagnose yourself as the prblem "he's not like this with other ppl so it must be me" that way you have a false sense of control. If you get it wrong then you can get it right somehow. The truth is that it takes 2 ppl in any relationship and he is responsible for this failure. Perhaps even more so in this situation.

I know it is hard to hear because you may feel attached to who he was before and not who he is now, but the best thing you can do is find someone who can really help. What you need is not wrong but he cannot help you with that. Maybe he did but he doesn't seem to now.

I hope you are well. You deserve so much healing.

Btw my ex T was a fan of saying I was the "only" person who needed whatever. It was shaming and made me feel horrible. I found a new T who stated that I was by no means her only client who wanted certain things (hugs or emails) and whatever it was she wouldn't reject me. It was a liberating and freeing.

You know, I cannot imagine what is like to have to have insurance. That leaves professions open to bloating their fees.
We in the UK don't have a perfect system. And mental health care in our NHS is inadequate at best. But, many T's cannot inflate fees because they wouldn't get any clients. I'm sure many charge more than mine, and if mine didn't offer a sliding scale I couldn't afford it. But she and others do.
I'm sorry it's much more limited where you are. But I'm sure there's a golden apple somewhere for you.

I thought I could never open up to another one (I wrote that here on PC at the time) but two years later I have told this T things I would never have dreamt of even telling T1. It didn't happen overnight, but my attachment and trust transferred to the new therapist.
I'm sorry your choices are limited by your insurance, and it's not at all easy to muster the energy to look for a new therapist when you are at such a low ebb (quite the catch 22, really) but I urge you to keep trying. Many people here on this board have been able to find excellent quality therapists who take insurance, and I really hope for the same for you.

That really stuck out to me.

There were SO many times during my years of therapy that I felt exactly how you are right now,thinking my T wanted to get rid of me,etc.There were even times when I told him there were certain things he said or did that I liked or I thought helped me and then he would stop saying or doing them and I couldn't understand why.Sometimes I would demand an explanation but he would be very vague about it,which would upset me even more.

I realize in hindsight he wasn't being cruel or anything,I see he was doing what he thought was best,testing me,challenging me, in order to find my vulnerabilities,my weaknesses,what makes me tick.In the end,I always ended up learning more about myself and it was always helpful in the long run.

His withholding from me,at times,were so painful,but I know now were necessary for me.And I know if he had been exactly who and how I wanted him to be ,if he had done everything the way I wanted him to,I wouldn't have benefitted as much as I have.

Once,I sent a really long email,I really poured my heart out talking about some very important things I had never talked about in sessions.His response was very cold,short and invalidating.My reaction was very extreme and I didn't go to a couple of sessions,did no call no shows,almost ended up going to the hospital,etc.At the time I was so hurt,I thought he was so cruel and uncaring,but once I did go back and we talked about it(and he was vague again)I was able to understand why I reacted the way I did,why I was so triggered,and it was very beneficial.

I do see that he was triggering,many times purposely,to see my reactions.Some of them felt so heartless and cruel to me,but in reality,that was just my perception and he wasn't intentionally being heartless and cruel.He knew exactly what he was doing,I just didn't realize it at the time.

It might be that the way you are thinking and feeling right now are due to your own past,your own experiences,your own perceptions rather than any ill intentions on his behalf.

I also want to mention that all the times I wanted to quit therapy because it was too hard,left me feeling worse as each week went by and talked to him about it he said if I wasn't feeling like crap then therapy wasn't helping,that it gets worse before it gets better,that's the nature of trauma therapy.

Hang in there,you will get through this.

I would be major time affected by what he did. Having watched the comments from people struggling with this and who have been with the same t for over 3 yrs; I have started to worry that when I get to the 2-3 yr mark, my t might start doing some of the same stuff all in the name of "intervention", "burn out", or "counter transference". I guess it doesn't matter the why, I don't want her to ever pull back anything she's given. I feel I need to grow out of it and away from the needs rather than being shoved out of the nest so to speak. I hope she believes this too.

I mean really, if I ever get to the place where I am as comfortable about between session contacts as she says they are ok to do and then she was to tell me that they are no longer welcomed - I would freak out. It would be devastating and extremely trauma creating.

I just posted about contact outside of session before reading this post. All of your feelings are mine as well. T's being one way, then changing it. For the greater good? Not so sure about that...it feels awful.

And boy do I hear you! But for me, it was once I mentioned how I liked or appreciated something she did, that's when she stopped. Gee, when I was a kid, anything I loved was taken away from me. My T is doing the same thing now....

Thanks Elio. Why is this? Why the lack of patience? I never noticed the 2-3 year mark. Interesting.

I've just read through this thread and recalled some other things you said on other threads, Skies. You mentioned that this therapist was very helpful for you in a few ways in the past - that is good. But more recently it seems like he's been triggering a lot of pain with the strategies he is using (whether with your best interest in mind or defensively). What I would consider in such a situation is whether it's useful for me to continue with him, keeping my current needs and goals in mind. It is perhaps not necessary to question his competency in general, maybe more that he was helpful in a certain period and for some things, but it does not mean he'll be helpful forever and with everything. Also, relationships are dynamic, change and evolve over time. Sometimes they expire in spite of being great in the past. I would probably evaluate what more potential benefits you could have from this therapy, and if you have ideas, discuss it with the T. If he is no longer willing or able to support you and provide help, for whatever reason, and it's not just a momentary state but persists, maybe consider stopping. This may vary among clients but I personally think that no therapy is a better option than constantly stressful, harmful therapy. I think that a therapy that hurts more than it relieves over a long period is most likely not done well or is not a good match.

I mentioned in other discussions before that I used to have a psychoanalyst who was quite rigid in his views and methods. It was interesting and helpful for a while but then stopped being beneficial and actually made me worse and worse in a particularly stressful and difficult period. He also handled between-sessions communication in a very erratic way. Like you, I wondered if it was about me and he was just trying to find the best approach working with me at that time. I kept looking for fault within but in the end I felt convinced that most of it was not about me but his own insecurities and... well, not having the background and skills to work outside of his beliefs. I'm not suggesting that you do the same but for me stopping at that point and not pushing it further turned out a really good solution. I then found another T who is very consistent and more compatible with me in many ways, including focusing on strengths, improvements and positives in the present, instead of looking for faults and negatives in my history all the time.

Again, just my opinion, but I think that model of psychoanalysis that it has to go on for many years is really outdated. I think it is often more effective to use approaches and therapists that are suitable for whatever state and concerns we have at a given period of life. It's not like they are blood relatives that we are stuck with for life and need to adopt to because there is no choice.

You seem to think that this T cannot help you and you are not improving... are you sure this is the case, and not the other way around? That the T was helpful for a while but actually you may have surpassed him and his toolkit? Maybe why he behaves in such a defensive manner, not explaining things to you etc. I would always be very cautious drawing conclusions about someone I only "see" in very limited ways online but if there is any impression I could get from your posts here, it's that you don't come across as a negative person at all. You also do not appear cynical fro your posts. But you do display a keen sense of complexity, depth and a very analytical mind. I can easily imagine that the way you tap into and question things in a gentle but sharp way might make a therapist feel internally intimidated, someone who is only superficially confident in his abilities and skill set. Might be why he says he would not work outside of the frame and why he withdraws parts of the therapy that he is not able to handle at this time. And what you said on another thread, that the T mostly keeps pointing out negativity in you just does not seem to compute for me, it does not seem to match the person who is making these posts

Again, just my opinion, but I think that model of psychoanalysis that it has to go on for many years is really outdated. I think it is often more effective to use approaches and therapists that are suitable for whatever state and concerns we have at a given period of life. It's not like they are blood relatives that we are stuck with for life and need to adopt to because there is no choice.

. . .
I would feel like he cares if done for the right reasons, so maybe I'll get more clarity. I lot of this ambivalence is related to how my parents raised me-no parenting; no rules. . .

This seems to me to be one camp... where the t believes that they need to push or tough love the client through growth. And then there is another camp that believes that the client will need less from them as growth progresses and will naturally pull away - grow up and leave home. [not to say that there is only these camps, and yes this seems overly simplified]

I hope my t is in the later camp not the former. I want to be allowed to grow up at my rate knowing that my t is there each step of the way, being supportive and caring.

Then again, it might all be based on what the t thinks the client needs, which might be where some of the inconsistencies come from with some t's.

My T was very supportive and caring.But he also wanted to help me,which meant the need to test and challenge me at times.

Yeah, my T definitely seemed to be more in the tough love camp. I go back to the time when I was really upset about something (partly because H also wouldn't validate me about it), and she was like, "I know you want me to validate you right now, but I'm not going to." That led to me sitting in the car sobbing and a sort of mini-rupture. But I think, based on some of my responses to her, she's come to realize that approach doesn't necessarily work so well with me. She's seemed to shift her approach to be more gentle and caring, though aspects of the tough love creep in, too.

Marriage counselor is from the other camp. He knows I'm very attached to him and have some strong paternal transference. But he hasn't tried to push me away, and understands that sometimes I need reassurance from him. I'm still attached (the intensity waxes and wanes)--and last month had a phone call with him where I was like, "How can I stop being so attached? What do I do?"--but I definitely feel much more secure in our relationship than I did, say, even 6 months ago. So I think that's progress. He just seems to think that time and building/strengthening more outside relationships will help to lessen the attachment. I definitely respond better to this style, though I think it can make attachment more intense. So if a T uses this style, they need to be able to handle clients becoming attached without then pushing them away.

I think the big problems come, like in your case, Skies, when a T seems to be more from the latter camp, then suddenly shifts to a tough love approach without warning. That's naturally going to be jarring and painful, especially if it repeats a pattern that happened at some point in a client's life.

Yes,jarring and painful,but can also turn into healing if worked through.

This has to be on of the nicest post anyone has ever written to me here. You really shifted my outlook, just with these words. You are drawn to mentors, but maybe you have than mentor thing going yourself.

Speaking of mentors, when I was in my late teens, a business teacher talked to me a few times, sort of took me under her arm and told me I would do bigger and better things than those I was in the class for. Strange, I did do those things. Strange, I mean, because it didn't cross my mind that I could do them. She also taught me about assertiveness. It was an exciting new concept for me, perhaps the first 'social' thing an authorative adult ever taught me. Ever since then, I became naturally assertive in business, and ended up with several promotions before i was 22. It gave me social power, so it served as a catalyst for more things later, much more.

Your post was like that--thank you. It really helped that you genuinely talked about 'good' parts of me (strengths), that my therapist leaves out and showed me I could believe in them.

After reading what you wrote, I re-read some of my posts at the beginning, and they suddenly sounded ridiculous. I was making myself responsible for all that had gone wrong, yet, he is the expert. At least some could be his fault, if not more. Now that is how I was feeling at the time, no doubt, but I feel almost like a different person now. So a little can go a long way. Now if my therapist would do that from time to time, imagine what we'd accomplish.
. . .

What is the concept of witholding, mirroring, validation, etc? Is it a technique they use and withholding is part of it? Sorry...just trying to understand so I can be on the lookout for that.

Also, I had a therapist once who stopped doing something kind when I said I appreciated it. It was horrible and shaming and put me on notice not to tell another therapist things like that. With the one I see now, I have tested this out and so far she has not reacted the same, but who knows if that will change. It's just awful how a therapist can worsen existing wounds so easily and without any apparent regret.

It's in the trauma books. There is discussion about "gently" withholding what a client needs to allow things to be worked through. And what a client needs is usually the stuff they were deprived of in childhood. That's what draws transference feelings out the most.

Gently being the key word here. For example, if a client always seeks validation, then withholding it will get at that need, process deep emotions, and let a client understand why she needs it and how it affects her etc. It's a common technique, I believe. However, this doesn't mean you withhold all validation for weeks, months at a time. It doesn't even mean you do it an entire session.

I would think they would tell me what they're doing because I am a paying client. I don't do work for my clients (different field) and not tell them what I'm doing in exchange.

This situation stinks. I do not believe that it is therapeutic to withdraw from a client. I think Ts need to know themselves well enough to know what to say is ok from the outset. It's their job to help struggling people. They need to know to what lengths it is ok for them to go to do so.

I agree with you that your situation is re-traumatizing. For me, walking away was the best choice when I was being re-traumatized. But I had other ts to support me through that.

I'm one that also presents a challenging diagnosis. That is no excuse for a t to mess with your head. I agree that asking t to explain his reasoning until it makes sense to you seems like the only way to go.

and I am appalled that your t wants you to take out a loan to see him more.

Sorry, I'm a little lost to your questions. Why is what and lack of patience around what?

I would think they would tell me what they're doing because I am a paying client. I don't do work for my clients (different field) and not tell them what I'm doing in exchange.