[DP_2017]

I know the decision on what to do next is mine but just looking for some advice or feedback while debating the decision.

My T and I are very close. He has been super friend like for months with me, doing all sorts of things that are very "grey area" and I thought maybe after therapy we would have a chance at friendship. I had hope for it. He knows I wanted that too. I brought it up months back.

He also knows I struggle with touch issues. My whole life I felt like I was gross or repulsive so I would not even want to touch people, let alone actually do it, I didn't want to make them sick or uncomfortable.

I decided today to tell him, that I been having urges to touch him. Putting arm around him or on shoulder, hold his hand etc, and I even apologized for having those urges. I was so sick, this was terrible for me, I felt so dirty to even say it.

Then, he basically said he was glad I said it and he gets it but he can't allow touch because it is too friend like, too friend like?? After all the BS he has done already??? He even previously told me he would work on touch with me and allow me to touch him at times.

I feel so rejected, gross and dirty. I never want to even consider touching someone again, so I can be rejected again. This is the only person I am ok with touching in my life, we hug often and I don't have support much in my life. I dont have urges to touch anyone else. This is the person I trusted most in my life and he rejected me, I feel like I should just go die somewhere. I'm so useless and ugly.

He's probably vomiting at the thought of it all. He told me to "touch my dog" instead, which is so ******, since A-- I do anyway and B-- its not the same as people....

I don't understand why he could not of just said yes we can do touches when we both agree before hand and not a complete blow off. I feel so low about myself.
I don't know I want to even go back.

Do not suggest someone else either because there is no way I am gonna spend money on someone else to be hurt and rejected by them at some point to. No thank you

I am not sure if I should tell him how it made me feel, what good will it do? Or If I should go back? He is all excited he is getting more clients in a few months and I'm sure he wont miss my ugly ***. He will have more exciting and non gross people to help.

I really hate how badly this went, in one instant, it re-enforced everything I believed about how others perceive me touching or wanting to touch them. He was so good to me too, I just can't even understand how this went so badly.

I should also add, I am extremely attached to him and I recently lost my beloved dog and that shook my world, I am not sure I can handle losing him so soon after and have no support to get through it. No idea what to do, I wish I could just call him right now but I feel It would be annoying.

[Amyjay]

Ouch. I am so sorry you are hurting.

Oh my goodness. This is EXACTLY what happened with my ex therapist. Every part of it. The blurred boundaries, the 'friendlike' attitude and then wham! The hug rejection. DP this is so familiar to me. Very much so. I'm afraid I eventually had to face the fact my T didn't have the competency level I needed. This type of inconsistency and confusion is hurtful and cruel. I'm very sorry you're going through it.

[toomanycats]

I'm really sorry. I know that this must hurt. I have a lot more I'd like to say, but first:
Could you share what blurred boundaries you've experienced with him?

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

I'm really sorry. I know that this must hurt. I have a lot more I'd like to say, but first:
Could you share what blurred boundaries you've experienced with him?

I could but I'd rather not, just in case he is on here, I don't want him in trouble, thats not something I'm looking for.

[Out There]

I'm sorry this is happening and how you're feeling - it is blurred and inconsistent boundaries and T's should know this and how it can make people feel. The loss of a beloved pet who give us unconditional love can affect us in these areas a great deal. A safe , gentle hug , if wanted.

[Elio]

I can see how painful and triggering this has been for you. I'm a bit confused, you say that you hugged often and then you say that he said he can't allow touch. Has he taken away what touch you did have or was he responding to the concept of those additional touches you described?

I ask you this because several months back I asked for additional touch. The request was for a very specific type of touch with a very specific purpose in mind. After many weeks, my T finally had made the decision to not extend touch to this area. It was extremely painful and confusing. One thing I did do via between session contact because I was not doing well with the 'no' was ask if this meant she was removing what 1 touch that is allowed. She told me no that her refusal was specific to what I had asked for. This made it easier for me.

If you didn't get that clarified, then it might be worth it to gather this information before you make a decision. If he did remove all touch, that is awful. Either case he went about it in a very insensitive and traumatizing way; and I am sorry that you are going through this.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Elio

I can see how painful and triggering this has been for you. I'm a bit confused, you say that you hugged often and then you say that he said he can't allow touch. Has he taken away what touch you did have or was he responding to the concept of those additional touches you described?

I ask you this because several months back I asked for additional touch. The request was for a very specific type of touch with a very specific purpose in mind. After many weeks, my T finally had made the decision to not extend touch to this area. It was extremely painful and confusing. One thing I did do via between session contact because I was not doing well with the 'no' was ask if this meant she was removing what 1 touch that is allowed. She told me no that her refusal was specific to what I had asked for. This made it easier for me.

If you didn't get that clarified, then it might be worth it to gather this information before you make a decision. If he did remove all touch, that is awful. Either case he went about it in a very insensitive and traumatizing way; and I am sorry that you are going through this.

We still hugged today, he wont take hugs away, he said that. He just said this but he had recently told me I could put my arm around him, and we talked about comforting hand holding months ago etc. I figured it was ok. Apparently its not.
I didn't even want to hug him today but I did because I figure it may be our last one

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

We still hugged today, he wont take hugs away, he said that. He just said this but he had recently told me I could put my arm around him, and we talked about comforting hand holding months ago etc. I figured it was ok. Apparently its not.
I didn't even want to hug him today but I did because I figure it may be our last one

Is his objection that you shouldn't be the one to initiate the touch? That's the only way I can explain him allowing hugs but not hand-holding/putting your arm around him.

Either way, this is confusing as all heck. I'd go back and tell him exactly how it made you feel. He seems to have been helpful otherwise?

[toomanycats]

So, to me, the fact that you're afraid to share them indicates that you kind of 'know' that he's overstepping professional boundaries. Let me pause here to say: Any overstepping of boundaries is NOT your fault. Keeping you safe, taking care of you by establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries is the therapist's job. #1 job, actually. So, even if you 'kind of know,' it's NOT your fault. And I say this from experience, since my last therapist blurred our boundaries, resulting in a very negative outcome for me.

So, a couple of possibilities come to mind:
1. Perhaps he is in supervision, and his supervisor is now aware of his countertransference (which I absolutely believe is happening) and is counseling him to establish some boundaries to corral the relationship back to 'professional' if that is even possible.

2. He himself has realized that he has messed up, blurred boundaries he shouldn't have blurred, and is trying to move the relationship back to professional.

Those are my best guesses.
I absolutely don't think he thinks negatively of you in any way.

Touch is a difficult subject in therapy. As it is of such importance to you, it should've been something around which he has defined and explained his boundaries. Perhaps hugging and handshakes are the only type of touch he allows, and that is policy (or even the entire practice's policy if he's working in a practice).

The other thing that kind of springs to mind is that most friendships do not involve touch beyond hugs (at least in my experience) - especially adult friendships. Your desire for other types of touch is ABSOLUTELY OK - but maybe it is coming from some transference.

I think you should tell your T exactly what you've said here. All of it. From how his blurry boundaries are messing with your head to how his assertion of a 'no additional touch' rule is making you feel.
I would also outright ask him if he is in supervision and if he has discussed your case with his supervisors and if he has been entirely honest about his boundaries with you.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

So, to me, the fact that you're afraid to share them indicates that you kind of 'know' that he's overstepping professional boundaries. Let me pause here to say: Any overstepping of boundaries is NOT your fault. Keeping you safe, taking care of you by establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries is the therapist's job. #1 job, actually. So, even if you 'kind of know,' it's NOT your fault. And I say this from experience, since my last therapist blurred our boundaries, resulting in a very negative outcome for me.

So, a couple of possibilities come to mind:
1. Perhaps he is in supervision, and his supervisor is now aware of his countertransference (which I absolutely believe is happening) and is counseling him to establish some boundaries to corral the relationship back to 'professional' if that is even possible.

2. He himself has realized that he has messed up, blurred boundaries he shouldn't have blurred, and is trying to move the relationship back to professional.

Those are my best guesses.
I absolutely don't think he thinks negatively of you in any way.

Touch is a difficult subject in therapy. As it is of such importance to you, it should've been something around which he has defined and explained his boundaries. Perhaps hugging and handshakes are the only type of touch he allows, and that is policy (or even the entire practice's policy if he's working in a practice).

The other thing that kind of springs to mind is that most friendships do not involve touch beyond hugs (at least in my experience) - especially adult friendships. Your desire for other types of touch is ABSOLUTELY OK - but maybe it is coming from some transference.

I think you should tell your T exactly what you've said here. All of it. From how his blurry boundaries are messing with your head to how his assertion of a 'no additional touch' rule is making you feel.
I would also outright ask him if he is in supervision and if he has discussed your case with his supervisors and if he has been entirely honest about his boundaries with you.

He does not see anyone to talk about his cases, he has told me that. He will ask questions to fellow T's if need be but keeps cases info to himself.

I thought he had countertransference too, which is why the possible friendship felt so real.

As for him going back to pro, that;s just it, aside from this, he was still very much "normal" in doing things he normally does with me, I left being like but you said the whole friend thing....

I do have feelings for him, he knows it. Its mostly friendship though, like honestly, just being able to hang out without paying him would be amazing.

Also I don't actually know what he has done with me is "Wrong", I was 100% ok with it because I loved it and it gave me hope for friendship.

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Is his objection that you shouldn't be the one to initiate the touch? That's the only way I can explain him allowing hugs but not hand-holding/putting your arm around him.

Either way, this is confusing as all heck. I'd go back and tell him exactly how it made you feel. He seems to have been helpful otherwise?

Mostly, at least in a support sense.

[toomanycats]

Being ok with it...even asking for it...even BEGGING for it...does not make it ok for a therapist to cross therapeutic boundaries. YOUR feelings - all of them - are welcome. It is your therapist's job to hold the boundaries, even if the client is ok with or asking for them to be crossed. That is, ultimately, how they demonstrate their care for us. And, it is their primary job -- SO MUCH of the work we do in therapy is done through this sort of caretaking.

Also, there should never be a situation where a therapist is meeting his own needs with a client (outside of the need to get paid and do meaningful work). He should get his own needs met outside of therapy so that he can focus all of his attention and energy on what you need, which is, more than anything else, a safe place with a safe person.

toomanycats is speaking alot of wisdom here.

I know this sounds blunt but you shouldnt be working your way towards a friendship. That in itself is crossing boundaries.

Ask yourself if you are looking at this man to meet your needs in therapy and also after its ended? Just because needs are not sexual does not make it necessarily appropriate.

The goal of therapy is not to keep this person in your life.

If he has counter transference and is actually looking at you to meet a need the he needs to process that and find another way thats more appropriate to meet his needs

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

toomanycats is speaking alot of wisdom here.

I know this sounds blunt but you shouldnt be working your way towards a friendship. That in itself is crossing boundaries.

Ask yourself if you are looking at this man to meet your needs in therapy and also after its ended? Just because needs are not sexual does not make it necessarily appropriate.

The goal of therapy is not to keep this person in your life.

If he has counter transference and is actually looking at you to meet a need the he needs to process that and find another way thats more appropriate to meet his needs

I don't think I am. I don't NEED to have friends. I have plenty of online friends and a best friend. we just click and have a really amazing connection and tons in common and super close in age. It feels like it should "be" -- I never felt this way until months in and getting to know him, and yes I have, he has been very open and personal with me. I've seen him in out of session settings too.... and I know what he is "like" outside the office.

At any rate, he clearly has been playing me if "friendship" is his biggest worry when he has been sending signals left and right that is what he also wanted

Are you saying you meet up together outside of session or you just pass him by in public kinda thing?

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

Are you saying you meet up together outside of session or you just pass him public kinda thing?

We don't hang out specifically but I've had more than 1 out of session meet up with him where no money or "therapy" was involved. I wont get into details though
but all were in the office

I think you know yourself he is not being ethical. And if he is not, then, I wonder how he is with others?

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

I think you know yourself he is not being ethical. And if he is not then, I wonder how he issaid with others?

Probably just fine. He has no reports etc.... and I think all or at least most of these meet up things were just me, not something he does with others. No it was not sexual either. Obviously if simple touch freaks him out LOL

I don't really think these were unethical either. No idea. I don't much care about ethics to be honest. I think they do more harm than good.

[unaluna]

Speaking of which, i wonder how ramona is doing? If you need a whats the word - warning story? - about how even a fantasy affair with a t can go all to heck, search for ramonas posts on the romantic forum last year.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Speaking of which, i wonder how ramona is doing? If you need a whats the word - warning story? - about how even a fantasy affair with a t can go all to heck, search for ramonas posts on the romantic forum last year.

I have no sexual fantasy with him. I can barely handle hugs from people. No way I want sex with anyone.

This is purely a friendship desire I have.

Originally Posted by DP_2017

I have no sexual fantasy with him. I can barely handle hugs from people. No way I want sex with anyone.

This is purely a friendship desire I have.

Just because it doesnt involve sex, it doesnt necessarily make it ok.

You said it yourself. Its a fantasy. He's not your friend... hes your therapist.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

He's not your friend... hes your therapist.

Well no kidding, my desire is to be friends AFTER therapy. I've talked to many people on other forums who have done just that. There is even a story about a man and his former T who were friends for 25 years until one died. It is possible but obviously with his comment today, he has no interest in it... just acting like he does to lure me along.

No, thats not true. Be honest with yourself. You have implied that it was already friendship-ish with very grey areas. Its one thing to have a professional relationship and then end therapy and later on become friends but you are already trying to make it happen.

One person said that friends dont really touch much beyond hugs etc. Would you really be ok to do stuff like hand holding now and other touch and then to give it up? Is he married?

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by Coming up tails

No, thats not true. Be honest with yourself. You have implied that it was already friendship-ish with very grey areas. Its one thing to have a professional relationship and then end therapy and later on become friends but you are already trying to make it happen.

One person said that friends dont really touch much beyond hugs etc. Would you really be ok to do stuff like hand holding now and other touch and then to give it up? Is he married?

I was going along with what I was feeling, so yes I was doing the friend thing with him but he apparently was not doing it, according to him... so I was just being nuts. He is no longer married no....what does that have to do with being friends?

Would I give up what to hand hold? The friendship aspect? No but I probably already have lost both anyway

[Elio]

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Well no kidding, my desire is to be friends AFTER therapy. I've talked to many people on other forums who have done just that. There is even a story about a man and his former T who were friends for 25 years until one died. It is possible but obviously with his comment today, he has no interest in it... just acting like he does to lure me along.

I don't know about him luring you along. I'm not there with you. It could be that right now you are not friends and what he thought in his mind when he heard your thoughts was that it was too intimate for the relationship you currently have with him. Again, not trying to defend him. He handled it extremely poorly, leaving you hurt and confused. It also sounds like he was not attuned to you and didn't see how much it affected you.

BTW, I wanted to let you know that it was well over a year before I physically touched my T for the first time. I had gotten to a place where I was starting to think that she would not touch me because of being disgusting (I'm gender non-conforming, initially I don't think of myself as disgusting but I had recently started taking testosterone and that left me feeling like I was contaminated). My only allowed touch is a handshake; however, she does allow it to linger so it's not all business level handshake. Incidental contact is also not a boundary - I needed this spelled out for me; that I would not be "bad" if we accidentally touched.