Today did not go well, advice? thoughts?

I personally have hard time believing that someone who has been through all the psychological and therapy studies to get licensed as a T could be so completely blinded by "countertransference" that they genuinely fail to see how their behaviors in these situations are wrong. I do believe it can get blurry and fall out of awareness at times driven by own desires and wanting self-gratification, but for the long times many of these stories span? I just can't believe it, there must be clear moments for these Ts where they see their actions for what they are and how they got out of control. Of course there is also the fact that awareness is one thing - action and change often is entirely another. Obviously some Ts get stuck in the grey area of denial in between, just like clients or anyone can.

I have never been in such a situation with a therapist, but in a scenario that has become so complex and advanced such as these stories (just read the one from toomanycats as well), I really don't see how this could be "worked out" in a healthy, constructive way with the same person that encouraged developing it and calls it psychotherapy. I have no problems comprehending that there are cases where T and client develop genuine, mutually positive and life-enhancing friendships, but if it is truly healthy and positive, the client won't come here to express a lot of pain and conflicting feelings over it. The very fact that these recurring, negative, doubtful, disturbing feelings exist, to me, is proof that something is just not right about the whole situation. Also, I agree with the notes that most normal adult friendships don't tend to involve the variety of touch described here unless it's a relationship with blurry and shifting boundaries - this is something I am very familiar with as "uncategorized friendships" were the code of my own youth and I did not recognize it as a problem at all, for many years. In fact, I tended to see my relationships with fuzzy boundaries and roles as a more evolved form of human connection, often saying even to others "why put labels on relationships and place them into a box"? I used to mix everything: professional, friendship, romantic etc, all over the map. Eventually I recognized the true current underlying these stories in my life and now it is very different, but it didn't happen overnight, to say the least, and only after many many such experiences. So in this sense, maybe these experiences with a T can be useful... but only if not overly destructive for a client.

I think this is where they end up "overcorrecting," which can also be very painful and confusing for the client. Like, "I've gotten too close, now time to pull way back." But then they act like it's the client's fault, not their own. I think of my MC recently with the e-mail--he realizes he shouldn't have done so much outside contact with me, so decides to pull back on it and limit me--which is extremely painful to me. Yet he acts like there's nothing wrong with his doing it because he's "not abandoning me."

One thing to my ex-T's credit--at one point she did something like that. Went from being very compassionate toward me, then one session, right at the beginning, she was like, "Would hospitalization be so bad?" And I was like, "What??? Yes! You know how I feel about hospitals." Yet she kept going on and on about it. I told her next session how upset I was at her suddenly suggesting that and seeming very removed. She admitted that she felt she'd gotten too close to me and thought maybe she'd started to lose objectivity. And thought maybe she wasn't helping me. So she was suggesting something else. (Though when she said I had to cut back on e-mails, she put that blame on me...)

I am sorry you are hurting . After following your posts here about insisting how the future friendship is what you want and how is would not be problematic, I unfortunately was kind of waiting when the heartbreak would come. Maybe it is better now earlier than much later after investing much more emotions and hopes. It is ok to have all these feelings towards your T, but it is his job to keep the boundaries and the relationship professional. Sounds to me he has failed that and you are not receiving the professional therapy you deserve.

He called me and we did talk about, sadly it was minimal help. I didn't wanna ramble on the phone forever so I tried to keep it short.

He said randomly "You are not the first person to develop feelings for me" which is weird since he already knew about the friendship thing

Then he later randomly said "The weird thing is, if I had feelings for you, legally I have to refer you to someone else" I did not get the point of saying that at all.

I was pretty quiet. I wish I'd said more but ya he basically said that his office is a safe space but not a practice lab. Couples can't practice sex stuff in there so it was the same for me. He basically insinuated that he was associating touch with sex feelings... which is where my fear came from, early on he knew that I was scared of touching people because they would assume I wanted sex from them, and look where we are

My T is gone... its like a stranger I no longer know. I'm less comfortable with him already, I am not sure what I can even say anymore. I feel ****** but its good he called. Although he was completely straight laced, no jokes. Nothing normal feeling. He had no real answer for how I'm supposed to work through this if I can't practice with him. So I think he has no idea what to do with me. I'm hopeless

I guess I'm puzzled as to how hugs is OK but a pat on the arm, or brief arm around the shoulder = sexual ("girlfriend like"). Prolonged arm around shoulder maybe I can see that, but not brief.

A pat on the arm, brief arm around the shoulder is less intimate than a hug to me. They're all friend like, already.

My T and I progressed from a pat on the arm or knee, to hugs after a discussion. Now sometimes she briefly puts an arm around me during a hug.

I'm so sorry your T has conveyed he's not OK with the touch you're asking about. I'm glad he's not taking hugs away. I'm puzzled at him not being OK with the touch you're asking about.

Some (in my opinion, more unorthodox therapists) T's hold client's hand, some touch feet, some even snuggle clients and stroke client's hair.

Personally for me, I needed touch because I believed so strongly that "I am too disgusting to touch".

for some people outside of therapy, any touch between two adults who could be sexually attracted to one another - stereotypically a man and a woman - can be intensely sexually charged. personally i think there is a huge danger using touch in therapy. for some people, a brief hug will mean "friends", but for other people it will mean "maybe we're more than friends". honestly, i don't see how the other forms of touch are "worse" than a hug, but possibly the therapist sees them as a venture into unknown territory, where the client might interpret things in a different way, beyond the brief "friendship/we get on" hug. touching more and in different ways is like expanding a relationship, which is also how a friendship expands into something more than a friendship.

to me it doesn't make sense why therapists touch clients beyond the necessary - eg: handshake first time you meet - but it does make sense that the therapist does not want to add to the touching repertoire. almost all of the therapists i have been with have had great boundaries re touching - only handshakes, if anything. the only one who did hugs, actually had terrible boundaries in other ways, and i am now having to work through issues that came about as a result of that.

I'm with ya here. Months ago he even showed me a comfort hand hold, used my hands and told me he does it with clients sometimes so I thought it was ok to wish I had that during a tough session but when I said that, it was like he freaked out.

He still stands by the arm around shoulder thing too, no idea. I'm confused.

I like you think I am too disgusting. There is no way I can see myself trusting someone and being comfortable withs someone again in this sense to want to touch them, so its just hopeless for me.

I am glad to know he is right along with how I was raised, to believe touch=sex.

Makes me feel spectacular *rolls eyes*

I wish I had said more, I'm tempted to email but I don't wanna be annoying. He is probably sick of me already

Yes. This. I second all of this.

The feelings he is talking about are romantic.
He is saying you have romantic feelings towards him, and that if he had romantic feelings towards you, he would have to refer you to someone else.

The thing is, he is already well beyond when he should have referred you to someone else. And he knows it. You can tell in how he's talking and what he's doing.

I don't think he's a bad guy or a predator or anything like that. I think he's let countertransference get out of hand, and he needs his own therapy as well as to refer you elsewhere.

He can refer me all he wants but I wont see anyone else. I'm not going through therapy again

I'd rather just suffer.... but after he said the feelings for you part he mentioned friendship or otherwise... so no idea...

I don't have romantic feelings for him, thats just it. To me, the touch was simply a step in my progress because I felt comfortable with him. I wanted to see if i could actually touch someone i trust without losing my mind... it was never, oh geez we need to get it on now.

At this point I'm still unsure about returning but I do know I wish we could of talked more, I am still having so much to say and my next appointment is too long away

I'm sad because all this time, especially dealing with my grief he was so good to me and truly made me feel like I matter and he cared... now all I feel is how worthless and gross I am. I think I just need to give up on hope. I am unfixable

Sorry all of this is going on, DP. My take on it is that your t's lack of good boundaries, possible countertransference, and misinterpretation of your requests for touch are rendering him (at least) semi-incompetent. You are not over-reacting. It sounds like your t has been too friend-like with you which has led to confusing, consuming, unhealthy thoughts. As someone whose therapist actually brought about an outside friendship with me during therapy, I know how debilitating and damaging this is. It's an absolute mind-bender even to be led on into thinking you're friends in therapy so that an outside friendship can take place after therapy. Remember, you went to therapy to get help for your self. You didn't go to have your therapist become your friend. Your therapist knows this and should have behaved more like a friendly therapist rather than an actual friend. This is all so wrong.

Lack of boundaries, transference, and countertransference confuse not just the client, they confuse the t as well. Please do not mistake that comment or anything I am about to say as a defense for a t, or blame for a client. My guess is that your t took you wanting to hold his hand or put your arm around him not as means to help you overcome your touch issues, but, that you would want sex from him (based on what you told him). Your t missed the mark hugely by not asking you for clarification. He instead made assumptions because his judgement is clouded by the confusion from countertransference. That confusion is so great he can't even figure out how to help you work through this. That's pretty scary.

Your t's bad boundaries have lead you to this point of feeling hopeless, taking the blame for all that's gone wrong, and shaming yourself. As others have said, this is not your fault. Please be kind to yourself as you figure out what to do. You seem to be pretty good at writing your feelings on PC. Have you considered writing him a note to better convey to him your thoughts and feelings?

Platonic touch can be very comforting, and it can bring people closer. The over-sexualization of touch is unfortunate.

DP--it's clear that your T--rightly or wrongly--thinks you have romantic feelings for him, and that's probably why he's disallowing more touch. It makes sense for a therapist to not want to encourage (or do anything the could be interpreted as encouraging) those feelings, and it doesn't mean he thinks you're disgusting or anything like that.

Did you say this to him? The way you wrote it here sounds very clear. It sounds like he's just assuming they're romantic feelings.

on the phone I did, not exact words but similar.... and thats when he said the office is not a lab to practice in, you need to do work outside the office.

That doesn't make any sense...I'm sorry. I mean, I'm under the impression that relating to a T can be good practice for relating out in the real world. For example, in theory, one should be able to safely express anger to their T, making it feel safer to do so in the real world...As long as it's not sexual, I don't see why it can't be the same with touch, especially of the kind you wanted....

Whether the touch would be helpful or not....his attitude makes it unhelpful by default because he doesnt want to do it or at least wants to choose not to do it

The problem with touch in therapy is not just danger but that its one way touch. They are not touching you out of mutual need. Tho I am not saying a T cant enjoy a hug but they arent hugging you because they need it. They dont need you to meet any touch needs like the client may have.

One way touch can feel lonely and cause more distress. Maybe your t realises this. Real feelings are involved here and he may not want to send you mixed signals that he wants or needs your touch.

I read what you wrote about emphatically not wanting a romantic or sexual relationship, but even if that is true for you , T is taking it that way or feeling that way himself. He isnt leaving it in the friendship only category , and that is why you are getting periodic comments about girlfriends etc on here. You might really have a rarified singular window on the world- I love people for that. In 99 percent of cases though, specified touch like that is about something more than friendship. Even if you are that 1 percent, your T is not and not reading you that way in my opinion. To be fair, it is hard to imagine asking for friendship with a T and asking for touch at the same time, and having them not be related straightforwardly. I only see it that way bc I am in the 99 percent, and not walking that mile in your shoes. I dont actually think working through a fear of touching people requires touching people literally, for whatever it matters. Your T is taking better care of you by saying all this, than allowing touching to go forward.

Weirdly enough I wrote a thank you note for 2017 and gave it to him after all this crap went down, so he probably thinks I think he is fantastic still.... and in that dumb letter I wrote that I hope he can remain in my life in someway. Well then....

I don't think a letter is a good idea again. I may try to write it down though just for myself. I do like your reply though, very good and insightful


I agree and sadly I just can't stop associating touch with sex and he has basically made it seem like oh gross, she wants to touch me, so she must also want to **** me, which is how I assume anyone thinks that I want to touch. So i never do touch people. I surely wont be now either. Forget that idea

Yes I also thought the "therapy is not a practice lab" comment was an odd thing to say. People often become comfortable saying things or experiencing emotions for the first time in therapy, which they then go on to do outside of therapy as well. Other people here at PC have also had touch in therapy which no doubt makes touch outside of therapy easier later on.

I know you feel like you couldn't do therapy again, but I think it's possible you've never had real therapy with this T. It's no wonder you long to be friends, it sounds like he's treated you as a friend, with the large amount of self-disclosure and lack of professional boundaries. You might find that proper therapy is not such a roller coaster and is safer and more consistent. I understand that changing T's is not what you want right now. I only say this because there might come a time in the future when you would consider it, and I think you might have a very different experience with someone else.

Oh, I'm sorry. I disagree completely with this philosophy. I believe strongly that in the office is a place to practice things within the limits of an appropriate therapist/client relationship. Where else are you supposed to be able to be all of the real you and figure you out if not in therapy.

I also forgot in our phone call he said that feeling "Safe" or "comfortable" with someone like me who has not much experience in what is ok and such, might not actually be what you are feeling, so basically hinting at more. I hate that I do not ever feel ok about telling someone something like this again because they all assume I want them. Right now I just wanna run away... I feel like I lost my biggest support in my life. Its different even though he claims nothing has changed. No boundaries are different etc, like yes they are actually but nice try

I agree and what really sucks is months ago, we discussed my touch issues and he said himself that he would allow me to work on "Safe touch" in the office... so I finally am mentally ready for that and I get shut down.... and now he is making it seem like I want to **** him and he has to keep a distance. Yes because sex is so important to me, seeing as I am losing my mind over a hand hold IDEA even... good grief... I really wanna slap him

I hope you write and say more about this, about what you do want, about what kind of friendship you envisioned going on between you after therapy- kind of the topography of it and the specifics of how it might have played out. . It is hard for me to understand if you really have no feelings at all of attraction, romance anything to this person? So many times things are all mixed together, emotions are, feelings are, and those feelings too wax and wane often in many scenarios. I am not speaking for your T, or agreeing with him, but just saying that throughout all your posts, I also read between the lines that romance was brewing, even though listening to you here I was wrong.

At times I thought he had feelings for me but no..... I was on the friendship side of it, other than my urges for psychical contact, not sexual. Like my biggest dream was to hang out and watch a movie together or go to the park with my dog. For me, I've never really wanted a romantic relationship with anyone. I have been tainted in so many ways for that to be a thing I truly want. Do I like him? Sure but as a person, he was funny and kind etc... Do I find him attractive? Nope. not in the slightest.

Honestly when I had these urges I cried after I left, because I felt wrong to even want simple touch from someone. There is no way I could ever actually be a romantic relationship with someone.... so I don't really "go there" feelings wise, I've always been in the friend zone with guys but like I said, several times, I and someone else I talk to about my T, had said he had feelings for me, I might of reflected off it a bit but no, I just want to be friends. However that is out the window now too so does not really matter