In Session Today: Part IV

This struck me as very profound. To me, relationships without a lot of honesty feel very hollow and draining. I've begun jettisoning these from my life. But this kind of openness he's showing you, the openness to openness, that is an incredible gift.

At least one of the problems with a lack of honesty (or maybe "authenticity" is a better word, as I don't mean where people are lying) is that the connection doesn't really gel between the people involved. IME of greater authenticity the me is more solid, as I think I learn who I am from my connections with other people.

shared some things with T via email. guess it will count as my session

it helps me to write

I blacked out my former Ts name. I'm not trying to get hit with a lawsuit or something

***TRIGGER WARNING FOR THE PHOTOS ***

How did it feel to write that?

I find it helpful. it makes it more real to me

I usually feel very little connection to the things I've been thru and struggled with

I'm aware they happened but it's like... it didn't happen to ME

so writing this stuff out helps me connect to that person back then (young me)

Aw, thanks! I'm definitely feeling his caring more lately.

It is a gift of sorts, and also how he's helping me see what other people in my life might be thinking, but not saying, in reaction to what I do. It's just a very difficult gift to accept, because as much as I hate not knowing what people are thinking, it's also what I'm used to. And some of what he told me before about his reaction to my holding the stone, that hurt like hell. But then, he's also still there, he didn't make me leave, he's still listening and caring and even offering to give me something again, though just for a set time. It's just so hard for me to trust in that... but maybe that's where the therapy is?

I thought what I had wanted was what I got for a long time from ex-MC--what felt like total acceptance, with frequent reassurance. Until...that ended abruptly. But I suppose that's not real life. As much as I felt like that could maybe help heal childhood wounds (and he seemed to suggest that, too, how resolving transference can help rewrite old stories)...I don't know that it really did. Or, to some extent, maybe, just having the experience of feeling really accepted and understood. Even if maybe it wasn't real. Yet I still kept feeling the need to test him, and I don't think that urge is there as much with current T. (Have I tested him? Yes. But do I keep doing it? Much less so, even though maybe from the outside, someone reading on this forum, might think I'm testing him just as much.)

That's an interesting comment, how you said you think you learn who you are from your connections to other people. That makes a lot of sense. I need to think on that some more.

I think this desire to want to know what people are thinking about you is a double edged sword. On one hand, learning how to make sense of how you affect other people is a good thing, especially if your relationships are not all what you want them to be. I found when I examined how I communicated around getting together with friends, I could appear to be difficult to schedule with and not take my fair share of initiating contact. So then the person on the other side reduces her willingness to reach out and initiate time together or now has a more restrictive schedule. So then it feels like she doesn't want to get together with me when really she's just reacting to feeling like I don't want to get together with her. This is one example of what psychologists mean when they say "self fulfilling prophesy." Often anxiety around social relationships amps everything up. Lots of times I end up feeling pushed away by people when they feel I am pushing them away.

This reminds me a lot of my spouse and it came out a lot in his parenting. He wanted to be close to our son but he did things that made the kid push him away. And his biggest fear was not being the parent he wanted to be. It seemed like it had the potential to be very self destructive in the sense that something he wanted so much was messed with because he wanted it so much that he created the exact opposite of what he wanted.

But the other side of wanting to know what people are thinking may not be as useful in everyday life. It strikes me as a major unknowable because you can't really know unless people tell you, and this question asked a lot can be really annoying. I think your friends or whoever want you to feel secure in the knowledge that they like you and love you and think you're great. For me accepting myself had the side effect of being more confident that I am loved by others.

I think many people want to know the unknowable, and it can be frustrating and diversionary from being present in everyday life. If you're distracted by wanting to know what people are thinking, it's hard to listen and respond and really show up for your friends and family. So they might disengage and that disengagement (even if slight, if you're good at picking up on people's nonverbal and body english cues) makes you feel bad.

My personal unknowable relates to things that don't make sense to me. It doesn't really apply to individual people, as I presume that most of what people do makes sense to them. I can't stand it when I can't figure something out, particularly as it relates to social systems or families or organizations. So of course I'd develop a career helping people through the most frustrating of social problems within a goliath of a system.

As usual, this may be not be useful to you but that's what pings for me in your words. I think you are moving towards something very positive in your therapy but I have found the discomfort of doing so is rather strong. I am someone who likes stability and finds security in things remaining the same. Once my T said during a time when I was starting to move from my more stubborn ways of thinking about things, "You're taking big risks." As if I were skydiving or starting my own hot air balloon business or something. I was like, wtf are you talking about? And this is what he said, being willing to be uncomfortable and open to change and what that means.

Thanks, Anne, definitely useful. You often give me quite a bit to think about. I feel I'm moving toward something, too, which is why I'm keeping up the twice a week (well, 3 times last week...) and trying to keep pushing forward, asking T and myself difficult questions, etc. It's definitely risky to change how you view yourself or others, and that's a huge part of why I'm in therapy. So if I don't take those risks, I'm not going to make much progress. This T just seems to be helping me get to that point more, for whatever reason. Or maybe I'm just more ready to go there now?

T yesterday. Went back and sat down. I shared how when I got out of my car, my bottle of Perrier had fallen out of my purse and rolled under an SUV, so I had to go retrieve it. T: "So you were crawling around reaching under some random SUV, looking like you were planting bombs or trackers or something?" Me: "Yep!" Which led to a weird discussion about people putting trackers on cars and do other forms of tracking. T: "I've had a couple spouses who put trackers on cars." Me: "Um, I assume you mean clients, or else, exactly how many spouses have you had? And they all tracked you?" T laughed and said he meant marriage counseling clients. Talked about computer tracking (apparently there are programs that can take screenshots automatically at set times, etc.).

I glanced at his socks and asked, "Are those Super Mario socks? Because that looks like one of the mushrooms." T: "Yes!" He pulled up his pants leg a bit to show the whole sock and was pointing to the mushrooms, saying, "That's the big red one, here's the green 1-up one," and then some other one. I've always been intrigued by his socks, but this is the first time I've commented on them.

He asked how my weekend was, and I said pretty good, got together with friends Sat., that we'd gone to dinner one place, then a taproom afterward, then they left, and H and I went to another bar (D was at his mom's overnight). T: "Wow you went to three bars? That's impressive!" Me: "Well one was more of a restaurant, where we had dinner." T: "And I guess they're all right in the same area." Me: "Yeah, and we just had one or two beers at each one."

I said I had two things to bring up, one a question about last session, one an update, but wasn't sure which to start with. I said first that I'd felt good about Friday's session. T: "I assumed that when you said you had a good weekend."

Me: "But there is something you said that I'm wondering about. It's not a big deal, and may just be a semantics thing, but...So you said how you saw a couple musicians and had given them something from your office to take with them to a performance or competition." T: "Yes..." Me: "Well, this didn't strike me until after I left session, but you'd said before that you had never given a client a transitional object before. But to me, that's sort of a transitional object. Is it just in what you call it?" T: "Well, I guess in that case, I was thinking of it more like a good-luck talisman, not that I necessarily want to focus on luck."

Me: "OK, and is it different because it was just for a specific event, sort of like when I had the interview, rather than keeping it longer-term, like I sort of did with the stone, even though my intention had been just to keep it till I heard back from school, expecting it to be 2 weeks, not 2 months." T: "Yes, I think that's part of it." Me: "So if they told you they had held the object and felt comforted, that would have been OK to you?" T: "They never told me they did. Also, with these clients, I didn't seem them very long, maybe 5 sessions each, so it was more of a shallow relationship. We didn't go into depth like we have here." Me: "Oh...so it was more like you would do with sports psychology then?" T: "Yes, very similar, something where you have to practice and then perform." Me: "OK, that makes sense."

Me: "Do you know which stone they borrowed? I'd feel weird using same thing another client did." T: "Actually, it was something else, you're the only one who's taken a stone." Me: "Really? OK. So...you feel OK about me taking something for the beach trip because it's a set time?" T: "Yes, it's more where it's for a specific event or time." Me: "So this is OK for you, me taking something on the beach trip, but maybe not so much keeping it longer than that? Or if not for that, would it maybe be OK to borrow it again for something else stressful?" T: "I don't know, I guess I'll just have to see how it feels to me as we go." Me: "Uh, OK." (He was smiling when he said that, but I still wasn't entirely sure how to take it. Did it mean he was unsure if he was even comfortable just with me taking it to the beach? Or did he mean he could possibly be OK with me having it for a longer time?)

Me: "So the other thing is an update. You know how I said I wrote to ex-MC?" T: "When did you e-mail him again?" Me: "Thursday night." T: "OK." Me: "Well, he replied." T: "When did he write back?" Me: "Saturday morning." T: "OK, Thursday night to Saturday morning. Just trying to get a sense of the timeline." I pulled out my phone where I had the e-mails up and read them to him (see content in my last session writeup). T: "How did you feel about his response?" Me: "Good, overall, I think. I teared up a bit." T: "What felt good about it?" Me: "Well, that he said I could still contact him if needed. And he phrased it as, 'sure, you can contact me,' which made it seem like he felt OK about it. Rather than being like, 'well, I guess that would be OK, but only if it's an emergency.'"

T: "So I guess it feels like he still cares about you then?" Me: "Yes, which feels good." T: "If you did actually contact him in that situation, how do you think you'd react to that?" Me: "You mean at the time? I think it would depend on what he said." T: "Well, he's generally good in that kind of situation, so I think he'd be helpful. But it might feel different to you, since things have changed." Me: "True, they could." T: "I think what I'm more concerned about though is what effect it could have if it went well. Like if he did his 'holding with the voice' thing, I know you've said you tend to really respond to that." Me: "Yeah..." T: "So I just worry that, you're making progress in dealing with the loss of the relationship, and if he helped you with a crisis, it could hinder that." Me: "Hm, I hadn't really thought of that issue."

T: "I hate to keep going back to the romantic relationship analogy, but it's an easy comparison. It would be like if you had a fight with your partner, if there was this friend or ex you could always go to, then maybe you'd go to the friend rather than trying to work it through with your partner. I guess I'm thinking of the example that if you were having issues with me, then turned to ex-MC instead of working through them with me, it would be kind of avoiding the situation and keeping you from progressing." (or something like that). Me: "Hm...that's a good point."

Me: "But I feel I'd only really go to him at this point in more of a crisis situation, like, say, I'd tried to reach out to you at 6 p.m. on a Friday, and now it's 9:30 p.m., and I know you don't usually get back to clients after 9 or 10, and I'm in a really bad place, and maybe I wouldn't want to wait till morning, that might be when I'd try ex-MC." T: "OK, I wasn't sure if you just meant a situation when you're feeling really sad one night." Me: "No, I'm talking more of a situation where it's like...call him or do something...bad. Like call him as a step before, say going to the ER." T: "So he's more of a nuclear option then." Me: "Yes, that's a good way of putting it." More of a last resort, or like the step just before the last resort. But of course I'd try you first or other people, like possibly H or maybe online friends."
T: "That makes sense. Again, it's good to know you're thinking of ex-MC as just the nuclear option." Me: "Yeah. And honestly, there was this part of me...well, when I got his e-mail response, it was like the little kid part of me felt, 'Yay, he still cares! He'd still be there for me!' But then the more adult, rational part was thinking, 'But maybe this is actually a bad thing. Like, maybe that will keep me holding onto him in some way.' T: "So maybe part of you feels it would have been better if he said no?" Me: "Maybe. It would have hurt like hell, but..." T: "It would have forced you to move forward." Me: "Yeah...this is like still keeping that connection to him."

I forget how, but somehow we ended up on ex-MC's tendency for self-disclosure. T: "Do you think he'd admit it if i asked if he self-disclosed much?" Me: "Oh yeah, he's very open about it, he says it's just part of who he is as a T. The thing is...he'd keep disclosing even after I told him that, say, stories about his kids, particularly his daughter, triggered transference in me, especially talking about helping her with her anxiety." T: "And you're a nice person,so it seems you'd naturally want to ask him how she's doing with that, which takes the focus off of you, which is where it should be." Me: "Yeah. And I don't know if I ever told you about this, but the one time, he actually tried to call his daughter on speaker phone during session, to prove some point. Thankfully, she didn't answer, but I wanted to be like, 'What are you doing??? Are you crazy? How do you think this might affect my transference issues?'" I think T just shook his head to that. I said I don't think I even told ex-T about it because her head would have probably exploded.

Me: "I mean, I think some self-disclosure has a place. I read about T's who won't even answer the question, 'How are you?'" T: "Yeah, it can go too far in the other direction." Me: "I mean, you don't disclose that much, but it's like you share enough of yourself to show...you're human." T: "Thanks, I try to find that balance." Me: "I think part of the issue with ex-MC is...he shared so much that I think I felt like I knew who he was as a person, and I kind of idealized him. But then he'd share about punching the wall or screaming as his son until his son asked if he still loved him and it was really confusing to me because I thought I knew what he was like." T: "There are definitely risks to overdisclosing. Which is why I try to limit it while still, as you said, seeming human."

Me: "Yeah, I feel I have a sense of who you are as a therapist, well, at least as a therapist to me. And you've mentioned that you're honest with people in your real life, too. I just assume you're a good father. And I guess...maybe you're a good husband?" T smiled and kind of laughed. Me (embarrassed, also laughing): "I don't know why I put it like that! I mean, you're probably a good husband!" T: "I also probably know how to drive a car!" Me: "You probably know how to make toast!"

Talked about another ex-MC-related thing or two, and we were almost over time. (I feel like lately, I'm usually the one who has to point out the time or get my phone out to schedule.) T confirmed Thursday and asked if I wanted Monday at 12:30. I said I know he's out next Thurs. and Fri., and I was debating whether to just have one session or two, if he was available for that. Like if I should just do Tuesday or consider Mon./Wed. I asked his availability, and he had some for all 3 days. T: "Why don't you just pick one for now, and it's not set in stone, you can always change it later if I still have time." I went with Tuesday and later switched via a very brief, scheduling-only e-mail to Mon./Wed., which he was fine with. (I request no comments on my opting to see him twice next week. I have my reasons, which I don't feel like going into here. Feel free to comment on other aspects of the session!)

Paid, shook hands as T said, "Good luck out there." Me: "Thanks, you too." T: "It's hot out there, try not to melt." Me: "I'll do my best." T: "Take care." Me: "Thanks, you too." Left, and when I walked into waiting room, the three people there all looked up and stared at me as I was walking out. Not sure if they were his next clients, but I guess we'd gone maybe 2 minutes over? Nice, awkward feeling...(I tend to just glance up quickly when door opens then look back down if it isn't my T.)

You and your T seem to be making palpable progress trusting one another. It seems like a two way street. He grows in understanding that though therapy is ultra important to you and you will email, that you have perfectly sane and sturdy limits all on your own, and he doesn’t need to worry - I think this was your example- that you will be found hiding in his bushes like he is one of the Beatles. Today, he let you know he values you and wants to be there, not ex MC.

I sometimes wish I were brave enough to share my sessions in as much detail as you do, LT. This t seems to be such a good fit for you.

Today was the first "official" session I had with T after her break (by official, I mean on our normal scheduled days). I had to schedule an early session last week because she had just come back from vacation and I was struggling.

I felt a lot more comfortable talking about my attachment to her, and how it'd gotten worse during her vacation, but I said I still didn't think that those were 'normal' feelings. She said I need to stop overthinking EVERYTHING all the time and that my feelings of attachment towards her are completely normal. I said that I was still feeling bad for scheduling an extra appt last week, and she said that she herself has done it a few times with her own therapist when things were difficult.

I like it how she validates my feelings and doesn't make me feel like I'm doing something awful.

Just had a lovely session with my T.

I screenshotted some of my thread and emailed it to him a couple of days ago. He said he read through it. I said thank you and he said "No, thank you. It felt like a privilege.".
We talked about what we had said and what I had gotten from it. I spoke about feeling like it was easier to look at his stuff than my own, and my quickness to want to walk away.
We linked it to other times I have cut people off rather than accept them as flawed. We linked that to my frustration and hurt at the behaviour of my mother when I was young, and the fact she didn't recognise or understand that I needed her to behave like an adult and how that anger 'bounced' and landed back on me (so I directed it to myself).

T said that reading through the thread he became more in touch (but doesn't totally have worked out) what is happening for him in this dynamic. He said that he gets a particular anxiety which causes him to withdraw, and that anxiety is about hurting me, and then the withdrawing ends up hurting me. He said it's not exactly the same, but similar enough to the way I withdraw to resonate. I said "Yes, and then we end up in a kind of dance of withdrawal and closeness" he said yes.

He said he's still trying to figure this stuff out after 40 years as a therapist. I said "Your willingness to engage with it is one of the things I find most inspirational about you.". He looked at me for a moment and shuffled in his seat and said "It doesn't feel that inspirational from where I'm sitting, but thank you.".
I said that I have a little plaque with a quote from Michelangelo when he was 87 years old which reads "I am still learning". T smiled and said "I'm a big Michelangelo fan! Someone told me yesterday that there's an exhibition of his drawings coming to the Royal Academy". I like when I get a little snippet of his non-therapist self.

We stood up to hug, and , for about the third time in a row, I hugged him without asking first (I had originally said I want to verbally ask first). He said Mmm as we hugged and said "You didn't ask, at least verbally". I said "yeah, we'll talk about that another time". He said "It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. I said I know.

As I left I saw a flash of a bird swoop under a little gap near his garage. I said "Was that a swift?" he said "No, a swallow. They're on their second family this year." I smiled and said "Aw that's lovely." and I left.

That sounds like such a beautiful session. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Thanks daisy

Oh I can't believe I omitted this - the best moment of the session:

T: "I feel connected today, I don't know how that feels for you."
Me: [pauses to think about how I'm feeling] "I feel very loving at the moment."
T: "Me too."

That felt good. He doesn't allude to his love for me very often.

Oh wow- I love how real he is with you in session and able to admit how he really feels.

Thanks Lemoncake. I love that about him too. I think it's why I usually am able to trust that we can overcome our ruptures.

Trigger warning for people who get easily upset about the news and for SUI. Don't feel like putting the whole post in a trigger box...

T came back from his summer vacation last Friday, where we met. Then we had a phone call on Monday, where he decided he couldn't do this over the phone and that we should meet twice a week for now, until I'm better. So we met today to start that off.

First, we talked about the fact that I'm scared off dying. T wanted to know what exactly scared me about it and I said that there's nothing after it, which doesn't sound nice.
He wanted to know what triggered that fear. I said the world isn't a nice place. He asked what I meant by world and I replied 'people'. "So people are bad?" I nodded. "Including me?" - "Yes." - "But that would mean I couldn't help you." I told him that was an accurate assessment and that I did not feel he could help me. He asked what made me feel that way, maybe the fact that he'd been gone for three weeks? No, just that the world is coming to an end and he can't do anything about that.

What makes me think the apocalypse is about to happen? Global warming, politics, technology... he said that that had been around for a while, so what changed? I replied the US decided to lift their ban pesticides on Saturday. And I read a bunch of articles about how we're basically already past the point where we could save our world in any way.

He asked about the connection to death. I said that I would be fine with dying of old age, of an illness or also just quickly. What I didn't want is have a 20 year warning about it and then at some point starve to death. He thought I was exaggerating a bit there, but when I explained the data points I had, he agreed that maybe that might happen at some point.

I sat on the floor for a while, until he told me it makes him uncomfortable. During that he asked me what he could do for me. First I said I didn't know, but he told me I had to do something too, it can't just be him making all the decisions. So I said I didn't want to be afraid of dying anymore, He didn't really have a comeback to that.

Then he asked whether I thought I was paranoid. I said my partner says so sometimes. He asked about specific situations, but I didn't really feel like telling him. I told him that I normally realize that those thoughts are not rational. But I can't really change the thoughts anyways. I also told him I do not think the CIA is trying to kill me or something like that. At least not willingly.

We discussed the possibility of medication after that, but he said we can talk about it more next time.

T wanted to know again whether it was not connected to the fact that he'd been gone for three weeks. He said that's often something that makes clients get more out of control, especially people with BPD. Me: "You're reading too much into this..." Him: "I'm reading too many books?" (our language does not have the difference many vs. much) "No, too much into this." - "Oh." He said that yes, he tends to do that. It's important I tell him when he does.

We talked about what happened during the time when he was gone a bit more, and then he asked me whether I was fine with coming twice a week instead of once. He added that some therapists even think more than twice is necessary, to which I quickly replied that I actually also have other things to do than seeing him. So we agreed on twice a week and we'll set a regular time for that on Friday.

Just a casual thought about this exchange. It's about the future and about something that may or may not happen from your perspective (i.e. you may not ever ask to take the stone again), but it strikes me as a relational thing where you do two things: 1) try to nail down his position so you can inform your own (and I don't mean this in some calculated weird way, this is quite normal) and then 2) construct two possible meanings, one that seems unlikely to me (that he was revisiting in some way his earlier promise to give you the stone) and the far more likely, at least as it seems to me from reading the words you wrote.

I feel like, could be wrong, that you have in previous sessions tried to clarify certain say policies with him, such as what a "crisis" means to him and the like. This feels to me like a pre-commit in the sense that I would feel cornered in a particular situation because it's hard to know the context of the future hypothetical because, well, it's the future. It feels like a negotiating strategy that I wouldn't want to get into. And the other thing about it is that this kind of future discussion imposes something artificial on not only where we are in the present but also on the organic nature of the relationship.

It seems like it is anxiety, as in you don't want to make a mistake in the future and be "rejected." I'm not trying to downplay how bad rejection can feel, I don't like it either, but I think you're kind of setting yourself up for it when you get into this kind of future negotiation and strategy. Because if you get to that future point where the hypothetical might apply (which is why your T's response to you was great), most likely both people will see it differently in the context of a present situation. The other alternative is to be present in what you've been given now and should you want something in the future, ask for what you want in the moment. Maybe it feels like a bigger risk, but I think it is actually less risky.

So you left with two "possible" interpretations of what he meant, where one increases your anxiety right now because maybe he doesn't really want to give you the stone even though he promised. Why not take what he said back when at face value? My guess is that maybe you didn't realize at the time there were two possible interpretations, but it might have helped if you did to ask him in the moment. Or maybe you did recognize the possibilities in the moment but were afraid to ask.

I may be assuming too much about your goals in therapy, but I wonder what it would be like for you if your sessions were less about the past (sessions) and less about the future, and more about the present (like MC in the recent happenings)? That section of your session seemed really "juicy" (as my T likes to say), with a lot of emotional connection with your T and self understanding.

I'm not criticizing, please understand, just giving feedback in my straight kind of way. I so respect how you put yourself out there in these write ups, they are great writing, and your progress each session is a given.

@ChickenNoodleSoup
I'm surprised your T didn't say, "Fear of death is something we can work on."

Yes, I think you're right about the two-way street in terms of trust. At one point a month or two ago he said something about "feeling this out along with you" to me. I feel like my relationship with him is different from his relationship with most clients. I mean, not in a sense of "I'm special," but that he's taking a chance doing therapy a bit differently with me than his usual model. His comments during last session about things with the musicians being more "shallow" sort of spoke to that. Because I think that suggests things are comparatively deep with me. I mean, he does have long-term, non-sports clients, but I get the sense this is different in some way.


But anyway, yes, I did use the "I won't be hiding in your bushes" comment (though without the Beatles), and I think maybe over the past 11 months, he's realized that, OK, yeah, maybe I'd look up and realize where he was the one weekend and watch him doing that online, but I'm not going to show up at his house or his son's school or anything like that. Like, I'm not a threat, I'm just attached. Maybe in part my giving back the stone before (without his asking me to do so) shows that I respect his limits. And my checking in about whether my emailing is OK, etc.

Thanks, Art. Sometimes I think I'm crazy to be sharing so much...but it helps me in some way. For a long time, I thought maybe I needed someone who was well versed in transference, who could work through that with me and be comfortable with it. That maybe I should run screaming from this T. But I think he really has helped me and has the potential to continue helping me. Part of his approach scare me, but maybe that's what I need to move forward, to overcome that fear, to accept someone being completely honest with me.

This is a really double-edged sword. On the one hand it would be great to work on that. On the other hand that fear is the only thing that has kept me alive for the last 10 years or so. I think I will ask him directly, but I assume he probably thinks it might be dangerous to go down that road (which I would agree with, although it really sucks).

ChickenNoodleSoup

Do you want some feedback on your session post? It's not a problem for me if you don't.