[atisketatasket]

Doesn’t a trained psychologist know the difference between effect and affect?

I don’t think he’s going to terminate you if that is what is making you nervous.

[susannahsays]

I understand your anxiety. Maybe you can just try to focus on the positive - that you get to hold onto the stone?

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Doesn’t a trained psychologist know the difference between effect and affect?

I don’t think he’s going to terminate you if that is what is making you nervous.

That really bothered me, too.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Doesn’t a trained psychologist know the difference between effect and affect?

Off with his head!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Doesn’t a trained psychologist know the difference between effect and affect?

I don’t think he’s going to terminate you if that is what is making you nervous.

As an editor, that jumped out at me, too! Still, his spelling/grammar is much better than ex-MC's (not that it took much!) He got aesthetically right!

Not expecting him to terminate, just worried I'll get the official "warning" about email usage. He said he'd let me know early on if it's bothering him at all and wouldn't go right to limiting them or charging me for all of them. I really hope he stays with that and doesn't decide to change boundaries on me tomorrow.

I also dread hearing him say how the emails affected him. I know I messed up and bothered him too much on a holiday weekend, when he may be out of town. I don't do well hearing people say negative stuff about me and it's like that times 1,000 for a male authority figure... I feel like a kid who's been bad.

[atisketatasket]

But is it really negative stuff for him to say the tone and urgency of your emails bothered him? Isn’t that more like a correction? Like you might correct your daughter’s behavior but not actually criticize her? “We don’t throw sand in people’s eyes” versus “you are a terrible kid for throwing sand into people’s eyes.”

Negative stuff to me is like “LT, you are x y z,” actual negative characteristics like “you’re very sick” or “pushy” or whatever. He seems more likely to be “LT, I’d really appreciate fewer emails on a holiday weekend” or “I’d like to see you manage your anxiety better.”

Incidentally I don’t see anything wrong with your tone. You stayed polite and respectful.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

As an editor, that jumped out at me, too! Still, his spelling/grammar is much better than ex-MC's (not that it took much!) He got aesthetically right!

Not expecting him to terminate, just worried I'll get the official "warning" about email usage. He said he'd let me know early on if it's bothering him at all and wouldn't go right to limiting them or charging me for all of them. I really hope he stays with that and doesn't decide to change boundaries on me tomorrow.

I also dread hearing him say how the emails affected him. I know I messed up and bothered him too much on a holiday weekend, when he may be out of town. I don't do well hearing people say negative stuff about me and it's like that times 1,000 for a male authority figure... I feel like a kid who's been bad.

Yep I still don't think you've done anything that needs to be forgiven or that you've messed up. You can effect him xDDDD but I don't think you would have sent the other follow up emails if he hadn't ignored the bit about about the shell in the first place instead of just confirming the time.

[ruh roh]

"I intend on spending at least a little time talking about your perception of how your emails are likely to affect someone - and I will share how they effected me."

Grammar aside, I read this as saying you perceived his response (timing and content) to mean something different than he intended, that you read too much into them. So he wants to talk about how your misperception came across to him. While I don't like his style for myself, it is something that you've taken to, so I would consider this part of his style of working with you, which is to say hey--I didn't mean what you assumed I meant and when you assign that kind of meaning to me, it has X kind of effect on me. But underneath all of it, he's not upset at all, just wants you to know how it comes across.

Again, I wouldn't like that kind of approach, but if it helps you, then that's your call. And for what it's worth, it's really offputting to me when someone assigns a negative meaning to something I've done or not done, when I never meant anything of the sort they thought. It feels assaultive to me. I doubt your therapist feels anything like that, but this is an example of why he might feel it's his job to give you feedback on how he responds to your assumptions about him.


So, to recap: I don't see a single thing here that's an indication he said anything negative about the stone, the shell (except for his pickiness) or you.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

But is it really negative stuff for him to say the tone and urgency of your emails bothered him? Isn’t that more like a correction? Like you might correct your daughter’s behavior but not actually criticize her? “We don’t throw sand in people’s eyes” versus “you are a terrible kid for throwing sand into people’s eyes.”

Negative stuff to me is like “LT, you are x y z,” actual negative characteristics like “you’re very sick” or “pushy” or whatever. He seems more likely to be “LT, I’d really appreciate fewer emails on a holiday weekend” or “I’d like to see you manage your anxiety better.”

Incidentally I don’t see anything wrong with your tone. You stayed polite and respectful.

I get the sense he's going to share his actual reaction in session. Based on some stuff he's said before, you know, the whole "You affect me, LT" thing, I'm expecting him to say something like "I felt hurt by the emails" or offended or annoyed or something like that. Which will still upset me.

And thanks for your comment on my tone--that helps to get an outside opinion!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

Yep I still don't think you've done anything that needs to be forgiven for or that you've messed up. You can effect him xDDDD but I don't think you would have sent the other follow up emails if he hadn't ignored the bit about about the shell in the first place instead of just confirming the time.

Thanks, Lemon. Yeah, exactly, the multiple emails came because it felt he was ignoring that other one. Had he not replied about the session time with that email, I would have given him more time to respond before sending a followup. It just seemed like he saw it and then didn't dignify it with a response. When I guess the reality is, he wanted to confirm the time real quick and maybe didn't even read the other email till later.

And nice use of "effect" there

Interesting, I still like your Ts style better than any others' that are discussed on PC. Whenever I read your updates, I keep thinking that if I'd had a T like him, I would have had a very different experience with therapy. And if I ever considered trying therapy again, I would like to find someone similar. Of course this is based on very limited info (that you post here) but what I consistently feel about it. That does not make it impossible, in a more intellectual way, for me to see the anxiety and frustrations you have, and perhaps his apparent limitations also come from his trying to approach you and your therapy in such a way primarily, in the absence of his feeling it from the inside. Perhaps, at least in part, that's why he keeps insisting on trying to show you how someone like him reacts to you. I can easily imagine that it is partially driven genuinely by trying to make you see different perspective from your own, but probably at least a bit also to keep you at a distance that is more comfortable for him.

I personally would agree with limited professional emails on a holiday weekend and am sometimes internally annoyed when colleagues, students, clients etc try to push it, whatever their reason, except true emergency, something that cannot wait in a more objective way. It is just a normal thing that most people prefer to take a break from work and I think it is realistic not wanting to respond or get detailed sometimes even if normally he would respond within 24 hours. At least it is not random but on an official holiday weekend where it can be expected. My personal strategy though is not responding under those circumstances at all - people then pick up boundaries/limits with time. I don't think it's the best claiming someone does not work but still engage in work emailing, however briefly. It's like stating a boundary but not practicing it fully, it can be very confusing. My last T did that sometimes until I told him explicitly that if he had nothing meaningful to say or did not want to work, then just don't do it. He kept to that going forward.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I get the sense he's going to share his actual reaction in session. Based on some stuff he's said before, you know, the whole "You affect me, LT" thing, I'm expecting him to say something like "I felt hurt by the emails" or offended or annoyed or something like that. Which will still upset me.

Thanks to Piaf I understand how upsetting hearing such a thing could be.

Couldn’t that be useful feedback though? Because if you have that effect on him maybe you do on others as well, and maybe that’s caused issues in other relationships you’re not aware of but which have hurt you or affected your life?

It’s not really about fault, it’s about self-presentation, which can often be a key factor in personal and professional achievement.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

But is it really negative stuff for him to say the tone and urgency of your emails bothered him? Isn’t that more like a correction? Like you might correct your daughter’s behavior but not actually criticize her? “We don’t throw sand in people’s eyes” versus “you are a terrible kid for throwing sand into people’s eyes.”

Negative stuff to me is like “LT, you are x y z,” actual negative characteristics like “you’re very sick” or “pushy” or whatever. He seems more likely to be “LT, I’d really appreciate fewer emails on a holiday weekend” or “I’d like to see you manage your anxiety better.”

Incidentally I don’t see anything wrong with your tone. You stayed polite and respectful.

I think this speaks to an important distinction about how "negative" or critical things come in all kinds of different categories. IMO anything but negative characteristics can be expected to tick an upset button for probably many of us, for me being less than perfect sometimes sets me off, no matter how intellectually aware I am that no one is perfect.

I don't disagree about the tone of the emails you sent, but I do feel a sense of pressure placed on him, some kind of unstated expectation that HE is messing up and not doing what he is supposed to be doing. My feeling is that a response on Sunday morning is not very meaningfully different than 24 hours from a Friday night. But what someone usually does is not a firm promise they would always do it, so my feeling is that you are holding his feet to some fire he's not particularly aware of.

I wonder about his comment, something similar to what he's said before, about how he's "tried to be clear" that he would respond only in the morning. I find myself saying things like this to my clients (I'm not a T) for those who do have what I consider to be unreasonable expectations or who tend to freak out if I am later responding to them than I said. Like if I say "a few days," they email exactly 48 hours later and remind me that it's been a few days (I suppose 1 minute into day three). With the vast majority of people, I don't need to explain what a few days means to me or otherwise feel like I have to spend time on "misunderstandings" I rarely have with anyone else.

I fully acknowledge I may be projecting my own issues into this exchange, but I wanted to write just in case it is helpful to you. I think that being more open to what may seem like criticism or anything that isn't about how great you are would be a good therapy goal for you. Because it seems to me that your distress when you think you've "messed up", at least with your T, maybe this doesn't follow you into your normal life, is pretty off the charts. I doubt any of us do this consciously, but being extremely upset when someone tells you something negative about what you did or how it affected them pressures that person to tiptoe around you and not speak about the negative. To me this feels like a burden I don't want to have, and that open dialog with others is worth the cost of hearing what they really think. This seems especially important if you get on his case about his screw-ups.

I also think that extreme distress in response to others' negativity shuts down communication with children. Learning how to react in a low key way when my son had complaints did so much to improve our communication. I also think it was true for me that I could criticize my spouse until the cows gave home but gave him very little space to complain to me. Again, maybe my projection. I just had a sense that I've been there and while I've hardly figured this out in some "yeah done that" way, learning to be more thick skinned and being willing to listen to others talk about how what I say and do can affect them negatively has been useful to me.

[unaluna]

Your emails - and his responses - feel like perfectly encapsulated bubbles. Not a lot of "stuff" clouding them up. I see a clear reenactment of the past - a male authority figure - and your trying to break through to him and still maintain a sense of self. Its never been that clear, at least to me.

[LonesomeTonight]

Anne, I'll reply more later, but just wanted to say that he'd never told me his email availability for the weekend. He may have thought he did (and will likely claim tomorrow that he did), but he didn't. If we'd had a regular session last week, then it likely would have come up at the end. But I only had the 30-minute phone session, since I was away, and he definitely didn't mention it then. Because I'd remember something like that. In the recent past, he's said I've never even come close to his email boundaries (I suppose I did this time), so it's not like I'm someone he's told the rules to a bunch of times, and I just don't listen.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Thanks to Piaf I understand how upsetting hearing such a thing could be.

Couldn’t that be useful feedback though? Because if you have that effect on him maybe you do on others as well, and maybe that’s caused issues in other relationships you’re not aware of but which have hurt you or affected your life?

It’s not really about fault, it’s about self-presentation, which can often be a key factor in personal and professional achievement.

Yeah, that's how he sees it, as useful feedback that could help me with outside relationships. Which I can understand, but is difficult when I'm used to ex-MC's saying everything I say/do is OK (well, until it suddenly wasn't). And of course, then my mind also starts wondering what other people in my life are thinking of me, and wondering if they feel how he does, and if I've screwed up relationships in the past because of it. Which can send me into a spiral of sorts...

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Your emails - and his responses - feel like perfectly encapsulated bubbles. Not a lot of "stuff" clouding them up. I see a clear reenactment of the past - a male authority figure - and your trying to break through to him and still maintain a sense of self. Its never been that clear, at least to me.

Hm, that's interesting how you see it so clearly. I know this is me reenacting something. I think it's partly the little kid in me wanting to be seen and heard, likely by my parents? I'm hoping T will help me explore this therapeutically and understand that it's not all about him, which he sometimes seems to think, like he doesn't seem to fully get the, well, "transfer" part of transference.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Yeah, that's how he sees it, as useful feedback that could help me with outside relationships. Which I can understand, but is difficult when I'm used to ex-MC's saying everything I say/do is OK (well, until it suddenly wasn't). And of course, then my mind also starts wondering what other people in my life are thinking of me, and wondering if they feel how he does, and if I've screwed up relationships in the past because of it. Which can send me into a spiral of sorts...

Sure, I get that (like I said, Piaf). But do you think maybe you can take a deep breath and focus on the therapist in front of you and what he's saying and ignore all those little voices that want you to stay stuck in the past?

Because this didn't just start with MC--there was a high school teacher, right?--so it has affected your life with at least two people.

And again it's not about blame or you screwing up. We all screw up. Anyone who always tells someone else that what they are doing is OK is not doing them any favors, because none of us do things that are OK all the time.

The past is done with. The future is what matters, and this is what this guy, much as I dislike him at times, is trying to steer you towards.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Your emails - and his responses - feel like perfectly encapsulated bubbles. Not a lot of "stuff" clouding them up. I see a clear reenactment of the past - a male authority figure - and your trying to break through to him and still maintain a sense of self. Its never been that clear, at least to me.

I have similar impressions reading LT's posts but am never sure it is an objective one - why I try to refrain from more detailed responses regarding this particular therapist of LT's. I know I have a positive bias there, which may not be completely realistic, more my preference.

In any case, what I sense (and you pretty much say the same above) is a pattern of wanting to be fully accepted and understood, no matter what you say, by someone who is in that specific role plus is meant to maintain some distance as a nature of that role. Wanting them to change and adapt to you better even when they state clearly their limits (or perhaps especially then?). Not even being okay with 5-10% disagreement, even probably wishing that they lied to maintain an illusion and fulfill a wish? I do feel that the therapy with MC may have been more satisfying at times because it superficially seemed to feed into that illusion, but then frustrating for not maintaining it consistently. I also wonder why someone chooses to see a therapist as an authority figure at all - for example I never saw mine as such and never would any T. I think these (including my refusal to experience them as authority) are subjective perceptions and projections we designate to them and then mentally build upon it.

My last T once said, when we were discussing boundaries in therapy, that he prefers not to state them in speech but practice them individually with each client, based on that unique relationship. And that when boundaries are stated by a T repeatedly, it tends to be a call for both the T himself and the client to want to break them, change them, whatever. I think it's basically the same as actions speak louder than words, and it is easy to say words that we cannot stand up to with acts. I don't think there is any one person in the world who is able to keep the exact same boundaries and styles at all times, be 100% predictable, and I personally don't think it would be healthy and progressive. That would be more a machine, and even machines break sometimes. But it is a good practice to make current boundaries as transparent as possible, and someone saying they are okay with something when they are not is pretty much cheating on that principle, or misleading at minimum.

Another thing, I imagine, might be frustrating at times with this T is his relatively simple perception of interpersonal interactions vs yours, LT. But just looking at people in general, and the average, I do think you are toward an end of a spectrum in terms of how much you think about, analyze, and read into others' reactions and behavior. Perhaps this is part of what he wants you to see and accept, that it is not that people don't accept and respect you, simply that their natural perceptions, thoughts and feelings about relationships and communication are different and maybe less complex and detailed. That a lot of your anxieties might come from torturing yourself with perceptions and thoughts that are unique to you and rarely occur to others, or at least not in similar quality and quantity.

I don't know, I'm just speculating here and it may be off.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I don't disagree about the tone of the emails you sent, but I do feel a sense of pressure placed on him, some kind of unstated expectation that HE is messing up and not doing what he is supposed to be doing. My feeling is that a response on Sunday morning is not very meaningfully different than 24 hours from a Friday night. But what someone usually does is not a firm promise they would always do it, so my feeling is that you are holding his feet to some fire he's not particularly aware of.

I wonder about his comment, something similar to what he's said before, about how he's "tried to be clear" that he would respond only in the morning. I find myself saying things like this to my clients (I'm not a T) for those who do have what I consider to be unreasonable expectations or who tend to freak out if I am later responding to them than I said. Like if I say "a few days," they email exactly 48 hours later and remind me that it's been a few days (I suppose 1 minute into day three). With the vast majority of people, I don't need to explain what a few days means to me or otherwise feel like I have to spend time on "misunderstandings" I rarely have with anyone else.

I fully acknowledge I may be projecting my own issues into this exchange, but I wanted to write just in case it is helpful to you. I think that being more open to what may seem like criticism or anything that isn't about how great you are would be a good therapy goal for you. Because it seems to me that your distress when you think you've "messed up", at least with your T, maybe this doesn't follow you into your normal life, is pretty off the charts. I doubt any of us do this consciously, but being extremely upset when someone tells you something negative about what you did or how it affected them pressures that person to tiptoe around you and not speak about the negative. To me this feels like a burden I don't want to have, and that open dialog with others is worth the cost of hearing what they really think. This seems especially important if you get on his case about his screw-ups.

I was a bit thrown off when you were getting so distressed over him not responding within 24 hours, even if he usually does that. He never explicitly told you "I"ll respond within 24 hours" did he? I can't remember. I get that it is an expectation, and I'd be disappointed/slightly worried if my T went longer in a reply than normal (and she has), but your anxiety seems to be pretty high over it.

I think you said it in one post, but i am guessing he wanted to talk about the stone/shell thing in session? Thats why he said "Lets discuss this tuesday." He probably wrote these emails in between some sort of activity, so was less on the ball than usual.

What I've bolded: I agree with Anne, that the tone of your emails do show that you are upset with him in some way, though he doesn't know why or what it is. I wouldn't put your anxiety as "off the charts," but I was reading your posts about you being worried/upset and I did notice how much it increased.

All that being said, I do hope tomorrow goes well. What time is your appt?

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Another thing, I imagine, might be frustrating at times with this T is his relatively simple perception of interpersonal interactions vs yours, LT. But just looking at people in general, and the average, I do think you are toward an end of a spectrum in terms of how much you think about, analyze, and read into others' reactions and behavior. Perhaps this is part of what he wants you to see and accept, that it is not that people don't accept and respect you, simply that their natural perceptions, thoughts and feelings about relationships and communication are different and maybe less complex and detailed. That a lot of your anxieties might come from torturing yourself with perceptions and thoughts that are unique to you and rarely occur to others, or at least not in similar quality and quantity.

I agree--and this is from a person who DOES over-analyze relationships that are important to me and that i have a insecure relationship with.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

I was a bit thrown off when you were getting so distressed over him not responding within 24 hours, even if he usually does that. He never explicitly told you "I"ll respond within 24 hours" did he? I can't remember. I get that it is an expectation, and I'd be disappointed/slightly worried if my T went longer in a reply than normal (and she has), but your anxiety seems to be pretty high over it.

I think you said it in one post, but i am guessing he wanted to talk about the stone/shell thing in session? Thats why he said "Lets discuss this tuesday." He probably wrote these emails in between some sort of activity, so was less on the ball than usual.

What I've bolded: I agree with Anne, that the tone of your emails do show that you are upset with him in some way, though he doesn't know why or what it is. I wouldn't put your anxiety as "off the charts," but I was reading your posts about you being worried/upset and I did notice how much it increased.

All that being said, I do hope tomorrow goes well. What time is your appt?

Thanks--session is at 11.

I guess one of the issues with email is that it's harder to sense tone. So it could seem I'm angry with him, when really I'm anxious. With the 24 hour thing, he has said before that he generally replies within 24 hours, even if he's away. So that's where that came from.

[velcro003]

the tone that i read was you becoming convinced he doesn't want to deal with the stone/shell thing, and lets ignore it and just do therapy! I could feel you shutting down...or maybe that is just me and how i'd react

[Deejay14]

LT as I think about this I would have emailed him once. He seems to be very reliable, so I would trust a response is coming. Also this is a holiday weekend so I might have emailed but not expected a response unless it was truly a crisis situation. The, I would not be happy if an adult who was not in crisis was repeatedly emailing me on a holiday weekend.

I am also not the best when it comes to waiting. Anxiety can get in the way. When I get the urge to call or email again I remind myself it's just MY anxiety and do something else which is usually a physical thing that helps.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

the tone that i read was you becoming convinced he doesn't want to deal with the stone/shell thing, and lets ignore it and just do therapy! I could feel you shutting down...or maybe that is just me and how i'd react

Yeah, it was a bit like, "Never mind, just forget I asked." Because I (apparently mistakenly) figured he'd say no.