[Anne2.0]

In my experience intellectual knowledge is way far different than being able to apply that knowledge and make positive changes. Some of my best learning experiences have been with those who knew far less than I did about things I wanted to learn. There are masters who are good teachers and not, and those whose curiosity and experience mastering something else enabled them to be a worthy traveler. Or as my T describes it, the accompanist to my solo performance.

In my opinion, "specialists" in certain kinds of therapy or life problems or disorders or whatever are far less useful than an experienced T with good observational skills and understanding of human behavior. I think the least important thing is the knowledge a T has.

In my therapy world, the T isn't a leader or a director down any path at all. At best, he follows me down where I've chosen to go. At worst, he's scrambling to keep up with me. I relish the opportunity to teach him something about me and what I've been through. Book learning doesn't help me here.

[Sheffield]

Agree that a specialist “t” can not necessarily provide a more successful therapeutic partner compared to one who is competent /experienced/people studying/ willing to learn / embued with common sense etc etc
To say that one has more experience of a particular issue than the consulting “t” is akin to saying one has more knowledge of ones child vomit to a GP or ones dogs scratching to a vet-surely that’s stating the obvious but that knowledge doesn’t mean we don’t need help from someone trained to put all the pieces together and formulate some sort of plan to move these issues towards “healing” if possible
I learn a lot from my clients and their owners everyday but I believe I know what I’m doing / what my role is pretty much all the time even if I have to ask for another opinion or consult out for specialist medical/ surgical treatment
Finally imo all the “healing” professions have an element of the unknown even in what appears to be a “textbook” case as every sentient being has their own thoughts and feelings and reactions so all of us are “winging” it to some extent

The exception to the above is I believe the case of children/adolescents where specialist intervention provides a kind of safety and legal net for all concerned (obviously could still have an incompetent “t”

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

Hi LT. I have been following your sessions and wanting to weigh in for months now but it finally all seemwd to click for me anyway. I may be totally off and please feel free to ignore everything I say. I admire that in you. I disagree that you have anxiety over your thoughts and interpretations of what others say.

You seem to handle others comments and disagreement with you very well. I could be wrong but base this on the fact that you continue to post your sessions and put yourself out there for possible criticism. This is something I personally could never do because I am avoidant. I avoid conflict at all costs and take everything others say to me to heart even though I will never let them see that.

It appears to me that you only seem to take offense to what men or other authority think, feel, or say to you. Going way back to the thick of MC days when you were getting along and even with your old T, you seemed to always want their approval and reassurance that what you thought or felt was OK and or acceptable/normal. You used to even post that you were emailing or calling MC to receive reassurance. Maybe that is why you post on this forum as well, only you know the answer to that.

This might be a good thing to bring up in session. It seems to me to be a pattern. The whole stone issue and even the dream subject again seems to be about you wanting approval, acceptance, or reassurance that your thoughts and desires are OK. When T seems to disagree and not provide that reassurance is when you seem to feel the need to keep pushing deeper in hope of getting the answer you want to hear.

Thanks, you make some interesting points here. I definitely am more likely to seek approval from authority figures, particularly male ones. I clearly did this with ex-MC and am doing this in some ways with current T as well. I think maybe I'm looking for the approval I was missing in childhood. And also the acceptance, as my mom's love often felt conditional.

Though I feel I want *acceptance* (which I think is different) from everyone, which I think has led to me oversharing with some real-life friends (not that all of you aren't real!), which is something that T has pointed out a couple times. Like, do I really need to tell them everything? There's this part of me that thinks "If only friend x knew y about me, they might reject me," so I think in telling them, it's like I'm testing them in a way. Which...isn't such a healthy thing to do, I know. T is telling me how I don't have to tell everyone everything, and I'm trying to do better with that (not counting on here, though even here I leave stuff out). Pretty sure it comes down to not accepting myself...

I do agree sometimes it seems that an unusual amount of time and effort is wasted on you trying to obtain that approval and getting this T to come to your way of thinking. I may be wrong but it seems like the lack of this is what ultimately caused you to terminate with your exT and MC.

Maybe not so much with ex-T--I think that was more that I didn't feel she was really helping me, particularly in dealing with the ex-MC attachment. With ex-MC, it was like he kept accepting me and saying everything I told him was OK until...it suddenly wasn't. And he just changed toward me. I don't know, it's more complicated than that, but don't feel like trying to go into all that right now!

While this seems to be a pattern that causes you much pain I would consider what you really want to gain from T. If you want to stop the cycle and improve your life I think this current T is good for you. He, like my T appear to not want to spend time on things that will not push you foward. The stone in his eyes seems to only perpetuate your attachment to him but most of all has morphed into your want of approval from him that this is OK as demonstrated by your eagerness for him to seek consultation over the issue. I can only assume that this was in hope of getting him to change his mind and provide you the reassurance you were looking for.

If you really want to stop the underlying cause of this pattern, I agree that time would be better spend on discussing your childhood with T. For him to help you move forward, he needs to understand the past. It seems that you had a productive last session when you opened up about your mother and provided T the full picture. This is what he needs in order to help you heal the past and ultimately the attachment issues.

T refusal to become enmeshed in the current attachment/approval seeking behaviors is his way of trying to get you unstuck and moving forward.

I think these are really good points--which is part of why I post threads like these, to get outside views on what I'm doing/feeling. He has talked numerous times about how he thinks attachment to him in the way I was attached to ex-MC would be unhealthy and unhelpful for me. He doesn't want to create that kind of dependency (yes, I know, some will say that his offering me twice-a-week sessions, extra sessions, e-mail, etc. could do that, but it's still different than how ex-MC was with that stuff). He's trying to give me the support I need to improve myself and my life without making me dependent, without making it about him. And I think that's what I ultimately need.

And I do think I need to talk about the past more, continue Friday's conversation (which I hope to do with him in 45 minutes).

On the other hand if reassurance or approval is your main goal of therapy (and there is nothing wrong with that if so) then I don't think you will ever get much satisfaction from this T. It just doesn't seem like he is willing to go there.

Either way I wish you luck and hope you find the resolution you are looking for.

Thanks! I think it's kind of like a childhood need vs. an adult need thing. Or maybe more want vs. need? Reassurance and unconditional acceptance and things like that feel good in the moment, but they aren't lasting. It's like getting a fix, a high. But then it fades and I need more, more reassurance, more proof that I'm accepted. That's the cycle I got into with ex-MC, and he kept acting like if I worked through the transference, then I could sort of rewrite stuff from my past. But it was never entirely clear what "working through it" entailed. I think I had this belief that if I could just see a male individual T (I wished for a long time that I could just see ex-MC individually...), let whatever transference happened...happen, then work through it with him, it would magically heal all those childhood wounds. But...now I'm thinking maybe that's just not the right path for me (not making any comments/judgments about other people's journeys!) I mean, unless I was with the world's most skilled transference-processing T.

And I feel I'd end up going from one T to the next, feeling let down by one, then trying to find another to sort of fulfill my unmet childhood needs...only no one can go back in time and fill them...So it would just be an ongoing, painful cycle of hope and disappointment.

So I feel like this is the equivalent of doing what's ultimately good for me, what will help me in the long run, vs. what feels good in the moment. This T has given me reassurance that he's not going anywhere, even if things feel uncomfortable to him (aside from, like, my physically threatening him, which just won't happen). That he'll be completely honest with me, which is not something I'm used to from, well, most anyone. So, that's a really longwinded way of saying that, no, this T is not perfect; no, he's not great at dealing with transference; no, he's not going to meet all of my reassurance, warm, fuzzy needs; yes, he's probably going to hurt me again--but I feel he has the potential to help me in the longer-term. And he has my best interests at heart. So I'm staying with him and seeing how it goes.

[LonesomeTonight]

T today. Went back and sat down. PC came up and I said how he's a rather polarizing figure on here. He seemed bemused (we'd discussed it a bit in a recent session, too). I said how I'd started a thread about him and it was kind of amazing to me how many people commented on it. And there was such a wide range of opinions on him and my therapy. There are some really helpful insights along with some more negative things, particularly about him.

He asked how I felt about people's negative comments. I said I'd gotten better at dealing with them, that they affected me less, that I trusted my own judgment of things more. He said that sounded like a positive development. I said yes, that I also realized that people reading on here just have what I report, they're not in the room, they don't get body language or tone of voice. He said that was a good thing to realize. And he compared it to him talking to the consulting group. How he also didn't give them a full picture of me, that he wouldn't have had time to, that they just went on want he said. I said that made sense.

He said that I probably only gave small snippets of my sessions on here anyway. I was like, "Actually, I give a pretty extensive account, including random little details, like people ask if I record the sessions, and I say no." T: "Oh, OK. Probably a more detailed account than I could give!" I said how a few people had said I should write a book about my therapy experiences. And that I was thinking about it. T gave this big grin and said, "You should do it!" He said I probably have much of the writing done already. I said yeah, but that I had to figure out what the point of the book was, like what the main them was or what the conclusion would be. He said that could be something to figure out while I'm writing it. And that I'd probably figure more stuff out about the process and myself while writing it.

He started talking about good psychological memoirs, like "An Unquiet Mind" (which I've meant to read) and the one by Kurt Vonnegut's son about schizophrenia. I mentioned concerns about confidentiality. Should I write under a pseudonym? If not, then how would my mother react if some of it included her? T: "That's between you and your mother to discuss." Me: "Or what about you or ex-MC being identifiable?" T said I might have to change or leave out certain details, especially if the book bio said where I lived. But that's what book editors are for.

I said how someone on here had mentioned my looking for approval from people. T said he agreed with that. I said that person thought, and I agreed, that I tend to do that more with authority figures, not everyone. Me: "I certainly did that with ex-MC. And I do that some with you." T: "Why do you think that is?" Me: "I'm guessing something with childhood, my mom. That I didn't get the approval I wanted from her for certain things so I look for it elsewhere." He said that made sense.

I said I feel I look for acceptance from everyone though. And how I think that's what led him to say before that I overshare with people. T: "I don't think you tend to be an oversharer." Me: "Well, you said at one point a while back that you think I tend to overshare." T looked puzzled. "What did I say that about?" Me: "In reference to my telling a friend about my past infidelity? It's been at least 6 months since I talked about it with you." T:" Oh right, I remember that. But I don't think I said you overshared in general, just that you didn't necessarily have to share that one thing. I think you felt a need to share with a certain friend, to see if he'd still accept you?" Me: "Yes, you're remembering correctly." So apparently, he was just speaking about that particular topic with that particular person, not overall.

T: "Can I ask you a question?" Me: "Um, OK." T: "It seemed like with the oversharing, you were generalizing a comment I'd made about a specific thing. Do you think maybe you do that with other things I've said, too? Because if so, then I definitely see how you could feel shamed by some things I've said." Me: "Yes, I think I do tend to do that. Maybe I need to make a list of things I worry you think about me and bring it to you, see what you say..." T: "You could, I guess. Like some of the stuff you said in your e-mail Thursday night, you were saying really awful things about yourself, and I didn't think any of those things about you." Me: "Thanks. And your response helped. I think some of that was me feeling bad about myself and projecting it onto you." T: "OK. I'm sorry you felt so bad about yourself." Me: "Thanks."

Me: "Also...I feel weird saying this, like it's TMI. And I'm afraid it would make you write off whatever I was feeling, like it wasn't real. But I think some of that was affected by hormones, like...you know, a particular time of the month." T: "Even if that's the case, that doesn't make the feelings any less legitimate. You were still experiencing them." Me: "OK, thanks, that makes me feel better. I just was afraid...especially because you're a guy...you'd be more likely to dismiss them as just hormones." T: "No. If during menopause, a woman has a hot flash...does that means she's not actually hot, because it's caused by hormones? No." Me: "Good point!" T: "Besides, we're all just basically a bunch of hormones and neurotransmitters anyway!" Me: "True!"

I said how one example of me overgeneralizing something he said could be the stone. Me: "I felt like you were bothered that it made me feel connected to you, so that made me think anything that suggested a connection to you was bad. When you said recently that wasn't the case." T: "Exactly, like I said in the email, feeling connection is OK." Me: "Yes, I understand that now."

T: "You know, I'm actually surprised you didn't push me more with the stone." Me: "Really? I thought I pushed you *too* much." T: "No, not at all, you seemed to back off from it quickly." Me: "I did? I feel like I kept pushing." T: "No, not really. I was expecting you to say something like, 'So when we're both feeling OK about it, can I get the stone back then?' But you didn't." Me: "I wouldn't ask that because I'd be afraid you'd say no and then I'd feel bad." T: "Oh, sort of like don't ask the question if you're not prepared for the possible answer?" Me: "Yes, like that. I'd rather just not say anything. Plus it might not have the same meaning to me now if you gave it to me because of what's happened. Or, I would think you gave it to me just because I asked for it. I'd want you to independently decide to give it back." T: "OK, I get it."

I also said I guessed part of me sort of hoped the people in the consulting group would have been like, "No you're totally wrong in your reaction to your client. I've personally given out 100 transitional objects!" T smiled at that. I said I'm sure they wouldn't say something quite like that to him, and he said, "Well, they can be pretty blunt."

I forget how we got on this topic, I'm guessing from my mom. But he was saying how one harsh criticism said to a child can affect them throughout their lives. I said how it made me think of an oil painting class I took at a community center when I was maybe 9. And the teacher said my painting was "terrible" and my flowers looked diseased. I just assumed at that point that I could never be an artist. And was amazed when I got an A in art in 9th grade. (I'm still not an artist!) He said that teacher probably shouldn't have been working with kids, that she was too caught up in the craft.

He kept talking about some stuff along those lines, and I noticed we were almost over time. I got my phone out of my purse to schedule as he kept talking. He finally was like, "I'm not sure how I got on that topic." Me: "Well, it was interesting. But I know we have to stop." He looked at the clock and said, jokingly, "LT! Why did you let me ramble so long?" I just laughed.

He confirmed Thursday. I said I knew he was out Monday and Tuesday, that he'd said we could have done both Wed. and Fri. if I wanted. But I wasn't sure because I was seeing p-doc on Wednesday, so maybe I could see him just on Thursday? Me: "I don't know, I probably should have figured this out before session!" T was very patient with me, saying I could change later, he just wanted to get something on books and asked which way I was leaning. Me: "I don't know! If I see you just Thursday, then that kinda makes up for the 3 days last week, so...let's go with that."

As I paid, he confirmed I could switch if I changed my mind later if he still had openings. I said I also wouldn't want to take time away from other clients, like if he was trying to see them all in 3 days. He said he'd planned to work longer hours those days to accommodate them, so was OK. Shook hands, he said to have a good week, he'd see me Thursday. I said I'd see him then.

[unaluna]

Sounds like the consult group may have loosened him up some about ATTACHMENT!! like hes not going yikes about it so much, hes more comfortable in and realizes better now what his role is, and that "youre okay, hes okay".

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Sounds like the consult group may have loosened him up some about ATTACHMENT!! like hes not going yikes about it so much, hes more comfortable in and realizes better now what his role is, and that "youre okay, hes okay".

Yeah, that could be. Not sure if it was the consulting group specifically or he's just examining himself a bit. He does seem more comfortable with it though.

I'm mystified that he felt I backed down on the stone quickly though. I had figured he'd feel the opposite. Hm, maybe some of his being more OK with the attachment is he feels I'm respecting his boundaries more now. Like maybe he's no longer worried he'll find me hiding in the bushes outside his house. And he sees that I can have attachment without it being ex-MC level of attachment--it's a spectrum.

He also seems to be more understanding of some of my needs. Like, "In order to do the deeper work, about childhood and stuff, she needs to feel safe and secure with me. And maybe she needs a little reassurance at times to feel that. So giving her some reassurance and showing I care might not be such a terrible thing after all."

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I said how a few people had said I should write a book about my therapy experiences. And that I was thinking about it. T gave this big grin and said, "You should do it!" He said I probably have much of the writing done already. I said yeah, but that I had to figure out what the point of the book was, like what the main them was or what the conclusion would be. He said that could be something to figure out while I'm writing it. And that I'd probably figure more stuff out about the process and myself while writing it.

He started talking about good psychological memoirs, like "An Unquiet Mind" (which I've meant to read) and the one by Kurt Vonnegut's son about schizophrenia.

I love reading memoir, here are a couple that you might enjoy related to therapy (more the first one) or mental health symptoms (more the second one).

Emma Forrest's Your Voice in My Head: https://www.amazon.com/Your-Voice-My...ice+in+my+head

Lauren Slater, Welcome to my Country (by a therapist, about her struggle with mental illness): https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-My-Co.../dp/0385487398

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I love reading memoir, here are a couple that you might enjoy related to therapy (more the first one) or mental health symptoms (more the second one).

Emma Forrest's Your Voice in My Head: https://www.amazon.com/Your-Voice-My...ice+in+my+head

Lauren Slater, Welcome to my Country (by a therapist, about her struggle with mental illness): https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-My-Co.../dp/0385487398

Ooh that Emma Forest book looks good. I want more book recommendations now

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

He also seems to be more understanding of some of my needs. Like, "In order to do the deeper work, about childhood and stuff, she needs to feel safe and secure with me. And maybe she needs a little reassurance at times to feel that. So giving her some reassurance and showing I care might not be such a terrible thing after all."

I've refrained on commenting on this thread because I think you know where I stand on Dr. T. I ultimately trust your judgement, though he's certainly not prefect. But DUH. People with insecure and disorganized attachment styles need a safe place to attach to have meaningful connections. If you can't connect to the therapist, then how the heck can you feel safe talking about the real meat?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by daisydid

I've refrained on commenting on this thread because I think you know where I stand on Dr. T. I ultimately trust your judgement, though he's certainly not prefect. But DUH. People with insecure and disorganized attachment styles need a safe place to attach to have meaningful connections. If you can't connect to the therapist, then how the heck can you feel safe talking about the real meat?

Yeah, it does seem like it should be so obvious! I think he was just more concerned about me ending up *too* attached to him, like in an ex-MC situation. But I feel like there's a happy medium. I mean, I guess ideally that would be "secure attachment," but pretty sure I'm not at that place yet, with T or most anyone... At least T seems to be getting it now...

I had mentioned in another thread e-mailing him to possibly change the day I'm seeing him next week, since he's out Monday/Tuesday. In his response to me, he added that after next week he'll be there one his regular schedule till he's out 2 days in mid-August. So he was reassuring me about that without my coming right out and asking. That's the sort of thing that makes me think he gets it more now.

[LonesomeTonight]

Cross-posted in In Session Today

T Thursday. I'd gotten new tires the day before, and they'd seemed a little weird driving home that day, but I just figured was my car adjusting. However, on the 15-minute ride to T's, my steering wheel was shaking violently, and my car just felt like it was about to fall apart when I went above 40 mph (much of the ride there is highways). I was scared they'd screwed something up and that the tires were just going to come off my car. Feared I'd either get in an accident or that my car would just die and I wouldn't make it to T's. And he was about to go out of town, so it made things feel more urgent.

Made it there (a couple minutes late), and was kind of shaking walking into his office. I shared with him what had happened with the car, he seemed empathetic, and I commented how I'd been anxious about session anyway. T: "Why were you anxious?" Me: "Because you're going out of town." T: "Oh."

Talked more about car thing and the restaurant/bar where I'd waited while they worked on it day before. I mentioned I'd walked there, and T was like, "Wow! That's like a mile!." Me: "No it's not...maybe a half mile?" T: "But you walked there along the road?" Me: "Well, there were big grassy areas next to it, so I walked on those." T: "But still!" Me: "Yeah. Also, that reminds me, I went on a walk around the neighborhood a couple days ago. It was hot, and I was only going to do one loop, but then... I was feeling good and decided to do another loop." T: "How did it turn out?" Me: "Well, I took a bit of a shortcut near the end, but still did most of it. It was just weird, because I felt good. I wondered if you or H had sprinkled athlete powder in my water." T laughed and said, "Well that sounds like a good thing." I mentioned I got really itchy afterward, and how that often happened when I exercised. T: "Can you be allergic to your own sweat? Is that a thing?" Me: "Actually, some people can be. But there's also exercised-induced urticaria, which I think I have. Like caused by histamines. Because it also happens if I do yoga or something, where I'm not sweating much." T: "Huh."

T: "So how is that [restaurant where you went while they did your tires]? I've driven past it a bunch but haven't gone it." I gave brief positive review. Car thing came up again. T: "I was trying to talk about other things to distract you." Me: "Thanks, I think it helped." T: "This is probably a bad comparison, but often if you're feeling a certain way, you can get stuck in that, like a computer having a certain window up. So it's hard to change to feeling another way." Me: "Is it like the other windows are minimized?" T: "No, because then you could open them quickly. This is more like they're closed. So it's much easier to stay with what you're feeling. Like if you're anxious. And I was trying to draw you out of that. " Me: "Thanks. It helped some"

I had coughed a couple times and told him, "This is from allergies and anxiety, I'm not sick" (since I didn't want him to not shake my hand at end). He said, "OK." Then I cleared my throat. T: "Why are you clearing your throat?" Me: "Uh, because I had to clear my throat?" T smiled and said, "I know, I was just messing with you." I smiled.

Me: "So I feel like this is really silly. But I see p-doc next week for the first time in a long time." T: "Oh that reminds me, I talked to her briefly this morning" (I'd recently given them permission to talk about me). Me: "Oh? Can I ask what you talked about?" T: "One thing I said is that I think she should see you more frequently till you can get some of the OCD symptoms more under control." Me: "Um, OK."

Me: "So OK the other thing with p-doc is...this probably seems so silly. But, it will be the first time since I've terminated with ex-MC that I'll be turning into that parking lot (she's in a different building in same complex). And I know, you're right across the street, so it's not like I haven't passed the parking lot and building. But I'm still afraid that turning into it will affect me." T: "That's not silly. LT, loss doesn't have a timeline." Me: "OK, thanks. You mean like grieving a death?" T: "Yes, like that, random things can make you think of the person or feel sad. It's normal." Me: "OK, that makes me feel better" (also thinking, "Good, he finally seems to be classifying leaving ex-MC as a loss, with me grieving it.")

Then I said I'd struggled with figuring out what to schedule for next week. And I was sorry about the e-mail to change the times, that I worried it was annoying. And, while waiting for him to reply to my scheduling request, I considered writing back and saying "never mind, just keep it as it was," but figured that would be even *more* annoying. T said that wasn't an issue, it wouldn't have been annoying--well, unless I did it for every single appointment--andthat scheduling e-mails don't even really register for him as e-mails.

I said I was annoying myself. That I hated that I felt unable to stick with a decision. How, I thought this was an OCD thing, but sometimes it feels like I have to pick the exact right time for a session. T: "What do you mean? What do you think would happen if you picked the wrong one?" Me: "Well, switching to Wednesday, I'd worry that you were just back from your trip, so maybe you'd be tired or off your game. Or what if you or me or D was sick that day, so you'd have to cancel, but then the next day would have worked?" (Which led to my confirming that, if it was an occasional thing, he wouldn't charge me for calling out sick. He said he wouldn't charge me if it was a one-time thing or, like, once every 30 sessions. Only if part of a pattern, where it seemed like I didn't care at all about his time.)

I said how it wasn't just about scheduling sessions. That I was that way with, say, picking out a restaurant for lunch with my friend, doing tons of research. How I thought of all the ways it could go wrong. T said it sounds like I worry so much about the future, that I'm not living in present. I said yes, plus thinking about the past. T said maybe what I should focus on is being more in the present. Me: "So how do I do that exactly?"

T started talking about different ways to stay more present, and I suddenly started crying. T: "What's going on? Why are you upset?" Me (not being entirely truthful): "I think I'm just still stressed about the car thing." T: "OK, I can understand that." (It was really more about his going out of town, but I was afraid to talk about it because of how it had gone last time he'd been out of town, back in February.)

Talked about my trying to read into what people are doing, like hypervigilance. I said, for example, part of why I was concerned he was annoyed at me for sending the e-mail confirming schedule change was that he just replied with "Correct" followed by a period. That generally he uses exclamation points in those sorts of e-mails. But that I realized he probably was just in the middle of something, and he was just typing quickly, so it probably didn't mean anything. He said I was right, that there was no hidden meaning behind it.

I said sometimes I read into how he ends sessions, since he says all different things as his parting words. With ex-MC, he nearly always said "It was good to see you" when he shook our hands, so the times he didn't say that, my mind would automatically go to "Was it not good to see us this time?" T: "Wow." Me: "Yeah, I know, it probably didn't mean anything then." T: "I feel bad that you have so many thoughts like that in your mind." Me: "Thanks? Yeah, I wish I didn't think that way."

We were at 25 after. T pulled out his phone. Me: "I thought we'd already confirmed the scheduling?" T: "Yes, but I just like to confirm at the end." Me: "OK." He confirmed the next week ones (Wed. and Fri.), and I went over to pay. Me: "So...will you be checking e-mail while you're out?" T: "I have no one covering my messages, so that means I'll be checking a couple times a day." Me: "OK, good. I mean, I'll try not to email, but...And what do you mean about someone covering your messages?" T: "If I couldn't be checking email, I'd have to have another therapist checking my messages, or else it would be client abandonment." Me: "Really? OK."

We shook hands as T said, "Stay in the present." I said "I'll try." I turned to leave, and he said, "And good luck with the car." Me: "Thanks. And...uh, have fun? wherever you're going or doing."

H met me in parking lot to drive my car to the tire place, where, after a few hours (while H and I hung out at same nearby bar/restaurant), they determined it was an alignment issue, as T had suspected, and fixed it for free. So I kind of pushed off any reaction to the session/T going out of town until I got home, where I ended up getting emotional and e-mailing him (separate post).

[LonesomeTonight]

E-mail exchange:
Thursday night (note: T had mentioned being in office a bit Friday morning, so I was hoping he'd see this before leaving on his trip rather than bothering him while away):
Hi Dr. T,
[brief car update]

On another note, I think why I randomly started crying today in session is that I'm struggling with your being away for 5-6 days. But that seems kind of pathetic/silly (yes, judging myself), so I didn't feel like I could really talk about it. I think it's partly that, last time you were away, we were still seeing Dr. Ex-MC (though not regularly), so could have theoretically contacted him if needed. So that's part of why I asked you about e-mail. And maybe it just helps to know that you'll be in a Wifi-accessible area and not, say, on the Arctic tundra. I wanted to ask where you were going or at least if it was for business vs. vacation, but knew you wouldn't answer. For some reason, knowing that would make me feel more secure. But I know that's a boundary of yours, so I respect that.

I think I just needed to express that I was struggling with this. I mean, I know I can get through it. It's more that I just had to get the feelings out. But I was afraid to say it in person because it's kind of embarrassing and I worried about your reaction. I think I just want you to say that you understand why it can be hard for me (see: attachment/abandonment issues) and that it's OK to feel this way.

Thanks,
LT
T (Friday afternoon):
"Hi LT,
Sorry for the delay in responding. I appreciate your sharing your concerns and feelings about the gap in our work together. I understand how it will be tough knowing that I am unavailable and I'm glad you were able to communicate it with me. I will check my email at least once a day, so if you need to reach out that will be OK although you may end up having to wait a bit for my reply.

Thanks again for letting me know what had been on your mind - it makes perfect sense!"

Me: "Thank you for responding and for understanding. I hope you enjoy your time off and have safe travels." (Note: I only responded because he said at one point that it bothered him if clients didn't acknowledge when he responded to e-mails.)

His response made me feel better. It felt validating and like he seems to be understanding/accepting the attachment thing more. And I got an exclamation point!

[DP_2017]

Lt

Weird no reply from clients would bother him. I figure t kinda dont expect replies in general.

Anyway hope you are doing well with your email goal.

Glad things got figured out with car. I don't blame you for not sharing why you were upset. That will be me in August. No way it's coming up. I refuse to allow him to jnow how hard it is for me. Probably typical for long term clients to struggle though so its expected

[downandlonely]

I've heard mindfulness can help you stay in the present. I haven't tried it though.

[Lemoncake]

Thank you for posting LT.

I'm glad to see he's upping his game and handled your thoughts about his break with respect and understanding.

thanks for sharing LT and this in particular: Me: "So OK the other thing with p-doc is...this probably seems so silly. But, it will be the first time since I've terminated with ex-MC that I'll be turning into that parking lot (she's in a different building in same complex). And I know, you're right across the street, so it's not like I haven't passed the parking lot and building. But I'm still afraid that turning into it will affect me." T: "That's not silly. LT, loss doesn't have a timeline." Me: "OK, thanks. You mean like grieving a death?" T: "Yes, like that, random things can make you think of the person or feel sad. It's normal." Me: "OK, that makes me feel better" (also thinking, "Good, he finally seems to be classifying leaving ex-MC as a loss, with me grieving it.")


I needed to read this as I'm still processing the loss of my relationship with ex-t. It's been a little more than 3 weeks since we said goodbye, and it's coming out in weird ways. Like last Sunday I sent her that email asking about my sand tray pictures, but not mentioning the car accident at all, and only later realizing I sent it actually because I wanted to feel the comfort of connecting with her, because I'm still processing not having her in my life anymore. I think I'm going to start my own thread for said processing.

[DP_2017]

My t said almost the same thing. It's been 9 months since the major death i had in my life and it's still hard. T told me in a sense you always grieve. You just learn to manage better along the way

[LonesomeTonight]

Figure I'll cross-post here:
T yesterday. He opened door to waiting room, I walked back, and he said "hi" quietly to me as I walked by him. I said "hi" quietly back. We sat down. T said it had been a while since we'd seen each other. I said "well, not really that long." T: "Longer than it it usually is." Me: "True." I said I felt maybe a little silly about the whole e-mail thing (that I'd sent the night before he went out of town) because I think I did mostly OK while he was away. T: "You said 'mostly,' so I'm guessing there was something difficult?" I said there was some stuff with my daughter (which is in TMI territory, so won't go into it here).

I proceeded to talk about that for a bit, with T listening, seeming understanding, and giving me a bit of advice on a particular issue (I have to wonder if his son had issues with it as well but wasn't going to ask). After about 15 minutes, T was like, "Are you feeling OK talking to me after the break?" Me: "Well, I'm kinda nervous, which is why I've been rambling on about this for 15 minutes." T: "It's normal to need some time to adjust." Me: "Yeah, but really it was only 6 days, so..." T: "Still."

Me: "I was kind of concerned that since I did OK...you'd think I was overreacting with the e-mail, with worrying about you being away." T: "I understood why you were concerned." Me: "OK, thanks, but I guess because I did OK, that I didn't reach out to you again, I worry that you think I was making a big deal out of nothing. That I could manage OK on my own." T: "I think it's good you did OK." Me: "Thanks, yeah, it's just more that...will you not believe me in the future if I'm worried about something like that?" T: "I don't think so. I think this was just one particular time." Me: "True, I guess if the week had gone very differently, maybe I wouldn't have been OK and would have felt need to reach out." T: "yes."

T: "Can I ask you something?" Me: "OK." T: "You keep bringing up the fact that you worry you shouldn't be seeing me twice a week. It feels like you don't think you deserve that. Why do you think that might be?" Me: "Well, I see people on PC who go twice a week, and they're dealing with really serious things. I guess I just feel like my stuff in comparison is just not as big. I worry you think I'm malingering or something." T: "I don't think that."

Me: "Or maybe it's really what I'm thinking. Like, I'll think, 'Oh I'm managing pretty well, why am I coming so often?' But then I think about things that show I'm not really OK. Like...I didn't tell you about this at the time. But a few weeks ago, when I'd sent you that e-mail saying all the negative things about myself,

Possible trigger:

I'd taken a knife upstairs to SH. But then I never actually did it. It scared me some though. I get the sense from what you've said before that you don't think SH is that big of a deal though." T: "Well, compared with eating a whole big bag of chocolate M&M's, it's definitely more serious in terms of self-harm. It's not a SU attempt, but it isn't nothing either." Me: "OK, that makes me feel better. I just kept thinking you didn't consider it a big deal, but it's kind of a big deal to me, if it gets to that point." T seemed compassionate and caring when talking about this. Part of me wanted to talk more about what happened a few weeks ago, but part of me felt afraid to, not just because of the topic, but also it's almost like I was afraid of his caring? I suppose that's something to bring up next session.

Shifted back to the my not deserving care thing, that I thought I hadn't struggled enough. T: "Sort of like the 'Big T' thing?" Me: "Oh, like the big-T vs. little-T trauma? Kind of that. Or like we'd discussed before, how some people had really awful childhoods but mine wasn't really that bad." T gave an example of neglect, that there could be a really acute case of it, a particular incident, or it could be something that happens over time, where it may not seem that severe at a glance, but it's more the chronicity. Me: "The what?" T: "The fact that it's chronic." Me: "Oh, 'chronicity.' I don't know what I thought you said. Are you saying neglect from my parents?" T: "Not necessarily, I just chose neglect as the example. I was more thinking of the chronicity of your anxiety and OCD from when you were a kid." Me: "OK, though there was also the fact that my parents didn't give me the support I needed for that." T: "Right, that, too. But just the fact that you've been dealing with it for so long, it can have a cumulative effect." Me: "That makes sense."

T: "I also wonder: Do you maybe feel like you shouldn't be experiencing anxiety at all?" Me: "Well, in a way, I feel like, I have a husband who loves me, a great daughter, we're doing OK financially--so in a way it feels like a 'count your blessings,' thing, like I shouldn't be struggling so much emotionally." T: "You can appreciate those things and still be anxious." Me: "True, I guess. Though maybe this partly is from my mom saying, when I was in high school and went to her saying I was depressed, 'what do you have to be depressed about?' Like I didn't have the right to be depressed because I had parents who loved me, I was doing well in school, I had friends. So I feel kind of like I shouldn't be depressed, now, too. Can I be both depressed and thankful for what I have?" T: "I don't see why not." Me: "OK."

I mentioned my fear of insurance deciding to no longer cover two sessions and said I'd figured out a plan to deal with that if it happened (like 2 sessions every other week, 1 session the other week). T: "Do you think you could have come up with the same plan if that did happen, instead of before it happens?" Me: "Probably." T: "You need to learn to have faith in your ability to handle things as they happen. Instead of trying to prepare everything beforehand." Me: "Yeah, I know."

We shifted onto the topic of some marriage stuff that I don't feel like going into here, because some of it's been ground that we've tread before. I'm not sure what got me off on that tangent, but I wish I'd stuck more with the main topic we'd been discussing, since I don't think that topic got me anywhere.

We were basically out of time, but I said, "I know we're out of time, but since I'm seeing p-doc tomorrow, I just wanted to know if you talked about anything with her besides saying you think I should see her more often to figure out the OCD stuff." T: "Not really, just that you're only seeing me now, that you're no longer seeing ex-T and that you've either terminated or are at least taking a long break from ex-MC." Me: "Oh, OK."

He confirmed me for Friday, and we scheduled for both Monday and Thursday. I went over and paid. Shook hands as he said, "Have a good weekend." Me: "You too." T: "Wait, today's Wednesday. I'll see you Friday." Me: "Right, I was thinking today was Monday!" T: "See you soon." Me: "See you then."

[ElectricManatee]

LT, I have actually started to like your T's approach more since he started to soften a bit with you. I can see why you're sticking with him. But one thing that really struck me about your most recent In Session post is when he told you that it's important to tell you what he thinks and feels about the things that you share, and then he immediately followed that up by saying that he thinks it's important for you to listen to and trust your internal voice first. Except he's just sharing his voice/opinion, not asking about yours.

It seems clear at this point that he knows you don't pose a safety risk to him (in terms of stalking or having delusions about the relationship, etc). Having established that, I think it's so odd that he's not exploring what your attachment behaviors mean to you and what they mean about how you feel about yourself. That's the paydirt he is kicking aside. I do similar things like look at my T's picture, and I have talked about why and what it means to me several times. I would NEVER tell a non-therapist about doing that kind of thing. I'm not sure I would even feel the urge to do it with a non-therapist. But one point of therapy can be to talk about yourself and your inner process and how you feel about human connections. If he is taking the perspective of a friend or your husband or some other person in your life, he seems to be completely missing the point that his role is to be your therapist.

Somewhat relatedly, the percentage thing seems really unhelpful. 5% bothered and 95% what? Thrilled? Unbothered? If he says something is 100% okay, does that guarantee that everybody else in your life will also be totally okay with it? What if his 5% is his weird hang-up that has nothing to do with you? Why does he focus on sharing the tiny negative part when I'm guessing you already have a surplus of negative feelings and beliefs about yourself?

I also want to say that for me, I have grown out of some of the more puzzling attachment-related things I used to need. They're not behaviors that are part of my adult life or coping skills but rather remnants of me trying to fulfill unmet needs. So I think it's more helpful to focus on the underlying emotions and to trust that the habits or behaviors will fade away when they aren't necessary anymore.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

LT, I have actually started to like your T's approach more since he started to soften a bit with you. I can see why you're sticking with him. But one thing that really struck me about your most recent In Session post is when he told you that it's important to tell you what he thinks and feels about the things that you share, and then he immediately followed that up by saying that he thinks it's important for you to listen to and trust your internal voice first. Except he's just sharing his voice/opinion, not asking about yours.

It seems clear at this point that he knows you don't pose a safety risk to him (in terms of stalking or having delusions about the relationship, etc). Having established that, I think it's so odd that he's not exploring what your attachment behaviors mean to you and what they mean about how you feel about yourself. That's the paydirt he is kicking aside. I do similar things like look at my T's picture, and I have talked about why and what it means to me several times. I would NEVER tell a non-therapist about doing that kind of thing. I'm not sure I would even feel the urge to do it with a non-therapist. But one point of therapy can be to talk about yourself and your inner process and how you feel about human connections. If he is taking the perspective of a friend or your husband or some other person in your life, he seems to be completely missing the point that his role is to be your therapist.

Somewhat relatedly, the percentage thing seems really unhelpful. 5% bothered and 95% what? Thrilled? Unbothered? If he says something is 100% okay, does that guarantee that everybody else in your life will also be totally okay with it? What if his 5% is his weird hang-up that has nothing to do with you? Why does he focus on sharing the tiny negative part when I'm guessing you already have a surplus of negative feelings and beliefs about yourself?

I also want to say that for me, I have grown out of some of the more puzzling attachment-related things I used to need. They're not behaviors that are part of my adult life or coping skills but rather remnants of me trying to fulfill unmet needs. So I think it's more helpful to focus on the underlying emotions and to trust that the habits or behaviors will fade away when they aren't necessary anymore.

Thanks for digging up this thread! You make some really good points here...and I'm honestly considering sharing parts of this (anonymously!) with T tomorrow. I am curious as to what the 95% is--indifference maybe? Being flattered that someone wants to look at his pic? (He seems rather vain.)

But yeah, in saying to him, should I not share things like looking at photos in the future? I was saying how I thought it could have therapeutic value, but he seems more concerned about his reaction to it--or perhaps my reaction to his reaction? But I also find it interesting that I look at pics of him (and the photo he thought I meant isn't the one I was looking at--it's still a public one), but didn't so much look at pics of ex-MC, but used other ways to deal with that attachment (see: stuffed elephant). I was saying in session how I have trouble internalizing people's care for me--this is a clear symptom of that. So I want him to help me with that (not just of him, but others in my life).

And that's a good point about asking what my voice is--like how do I feel about looking at the photos? I mean, the fact that I'm sort of confessing suggests shame, but honestly, I don't see too much wrong with it. One of these days, I'm going to compile a bunch of posts from random people on PC like from Dear T, hand it to him, and say, "See? It's not just me!!!"

[LonesomeTonight]

Also, helps to know you've grown out of some attachment things. I was telling T yesterday that, it may not seem this way to him, but I feel less of a need to "test" him compared to ex-MC--and I was still testing ex-MC like 4 years in (it's been a year with current T). I tried to tell him before that the stone (or I guess looking at pictures) is a way of coping without actually reaching out to him. And I feel like it's sort of a step in right direction, compared to needing him to reassure me. Like if I can hold a stone or look at his pic for a bit, as compared to emailing him to be like, "Are things still OK?" (Or even anything, just to get response), that seems like progress to me.

[LonesomeTonight]

Cross-posting from IST:
T yesterday—extra session to deal with stuff from Monday. Went back and sat down. T had printed a copy of my email from Monday night--I said I had a copy, too. He asked where I wanted to start. I said I probably should have figured that out before session. He suggested we start with the ex-MC part, and I said OK.

I'd said in email how it felt like Monday, T had said I'd done something wrong in telling ex-MC that I loved him, that I felt like he was saying that what happened with him was all my fault. T: "The only mistake you made was sharing something like that and not being prepared for him to have a big reaction to it." Me: "Um..." T: "I'm trying to help you understand how people can react to you. That in choosing to tell someone something, you need to understand how it can affect them and how they could react." Me: "OK...I get that, but...it still seems like you're trying to say it's all my fault what happened. When I don't think it was just me. I think it was some stuff with ex-MC, too."

T said he wasn't trying to assign blame, that some of ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries likely contributed. He mentioned ex-MC's excessive self-disclosure. T: "It probably felt to you that he was letting you into his world." Me: "Yes, it kind of did. I don't know that he realizes the effect it had on me or could have on other clients." T: "He probably doesn't." Me: "He'd say it's just who he is as a therapist."

I said I couldn't believe that I was the first client to tell him I loved him. T: "And Ex-MC is a lovable sort of guy, very warm and sensitive and caring. He's squishy." Me: "Yeah, it's why I said a stuffed animal made sense to represent him."

Me: "When you said boundaries, I assumed you meant because he was our marriage counselor." T: "Well, there's that, too. It complicated things." Me: "I kind of feel like...the way he was inconsistent, that he was sometimes willing to talk to me on phone but other times not, that he would sometimes reply to email sometimes not, that he would say we could talk about anything in session sometimes, then other times say we had to stick to marriage counseling stuff--it felt like that contributed to my insecure attachment." T: "Hm, like intermittent reinforcement. That makes sense." Me: "Yes, like sometimes he gave me what I wanted so I kept pushing him to get it, to get more of it."

I said sometimes I wished that I could have just been working with ex-MC, so that we could have fully addressed it. T: "Well, but that could have had its own set of problems. Then you would just be a man and a woman sitting in a room talking, with no H there." Me (thinking...isn't that what I'm doing right now with you?): "True."

Me: “Maybe I just define love differently, like I have a lower threshold. Where some people would think it means I’d take a bullet for them.” T: “That could be. Maybe for you it could be how someone makes you feel when you’re with them, for example.” Me: "Yes. So my saying love might seem scary to someone because of what they think it means. Which is different from what I mean. when I say it." Mentioned how a guy had dumped me after I said I loved him, and how I'd vowed never t say it first in relationship after that. And with people since then, including H, if I started feeling love toward them, it was like "Oh no, what if they can tell, what if they can figure it out." I forget what T said to that.

Said I wanted to cover some other topics in email too. Brought up the ever-present original stone, how his reaction to that still continued to affect me. I said it wasn't so much that I wanted an apology for what he said, I just wanted him to really understand why it upset me. Like when he called it "10% creepy" and compared it to digging through a celebrity's trash. T: "But remember, I said that was on the other end of the spectrum." Me: "But I don't want to be on that spectrum at all!"

I asked why he was OK giving me the stone now for the trip--was it because it was for a set period of time? T: "Maybe that's part of it, but it's really more that I know you better now and I think I understand what's going on with it."

Then I made the stupid decision to bring up looking at his photo. Me: "What I don't understand is why you were bothered by the stone when you thought it was about you, but then you seemed totally fine with my looking at your photo, which is very clearly about you. It's not like I was looking at a photo of the building." T: "Well, I wouldn't say I was totally fine with it. Maybe 5% bothered." Me (starting to cry): "What? I thought you were OK with it?" T: "But that's such a tiny amount. It's barely anything at all. I don't see why it's so upsetting." Me: "Because I don't want it to be any percent. I just want you to be OK with it."

T: "I'm not immune to you, LT." Me: "What?" T: "Things you say and do affect me. I'm not going to hide that. I'm trying to teach you how other people can be affected by what you choose to share. So that maybe you'll think more carefully about it before you share with them." Me: "...Are you trying to say if something like this happens in the future, I shouldn't share it with you?" T: "Well, you should really think about the effect it could have." Me: "But wouldn't something like that have therapeutic value? Like, say, why I was looking at your photo one week but not another?" T: "I'm just saying to think about what you share." Me: "And I know you're trying to get me to know how affect other people...but I'm not going to tell my friend that I missed her and looked at her photo. Well, possibly a family member, but...I think that's kind of normal."

I started crying, "I just have trouble internalizing things, internalizing other people's feelings for me. Not just with you, with anyone. So I need the outside things sometimes. And I don't want to have to hide that." I forget what T said to that. I asked if it would bother him if I went back and read some of his emails to me. He said no, that he wrote emails to clients with the thought that they might revisit them, so that's fine. Me: "OK, that's part of why I initially wanted you to reply to Monday's email, so I'd have it to look at. But then I realized I was sort of afraid of how you'd reply, and we'd only have Friday before the break, so..." T: "I think it's better we met. I've said some fairly harsh things today, and it's better that I'm able to see your reactions to those." Me: "Yes, some of this would have been even more difficult over email."

Me: "I know we're near the end, but there's one other thing I want to bring up that wasn't in the email but that I thought about from Monday." T: “Is this going to be a uncomfortable place to end session?" Me: "I don’t think so, I just want to clarify something, an impression I got." T: "OK." Me: "So when we were talking about secure attachment, you were listing various things you'd said, like told me you wouldn't abandon me, worked through conflicts with me, said that you'd tell me early on if something I did bothered you. And it sort of felt like...I got the sense that you were frustrated with me. But it's not easy, if I've had attachment issues my whole life, to just hear those things and be like, Oh, OK, everything's fine now. So...are you frustrated with me?"

T (in a caring voice): “I’m not frustrated with you, LT.” Me: "OK, thanks." T: "As you know, I can be rather intense at times." Me: "Yes." T: "When I was saying those things to you, it's because I really hate that you have to struggle with the attachment, I don't want you to be suffering." Me: "Oh. OK. Thanks."

T: "I know some of this has been difficult for you today." Me: "Yes." T: "You often seem to react more strongly than I expect you to. So I'll sometimes try to dial back the level of intensity or feedback for you." Me: "I appreciate that." T: "Sometimes I think maybe you need to tell me what you want from a topic, what you're looking for from me." Me: "OK." T: "But I am going to give feedback. Because I want to help learn to listen to and trust your internal voice first, rather than someone else's." I think I started crying here--or said something that prompted his next comment.

T: “Maybe the question should be: Do you think you can handle me?” Me: "...I think so." T: "OK. But just think about it." Me: "I will. But this makes me think of a recent forum post. Where someone had just started seeing a new T, and they were pretty harsh to them, but then they felt it was helping. And I replied to it, talking about you, saying how you say some harsh things to me as well. But that I wonder if I need to hear those harsh things and experience the emotions that come with them, in order to really get at those emotions and work on them. Like shame, for example. And I feel like I'm making progress with you, even though it's been painful at times. But I think maybe I have to do with the pain to move forward. Does that make sense?" T: "That makes a lot of sense." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Friday. T said would be fine to schedule half-hour call while I'm on vacation next week, that I could just text or email about a time. Went over and paid. Usually he stays seated while holding out his hand to me, but this time he stood up like on other side of his chair from me then was walking around to me, and I wasn’t sure if he’d forgotten the handshake and wondered why I wasn’t leaving or if he was going to shake it standing up. To break the awkwardness, I just held out my hand, and he shook it. Said he’d see me Friday, I said I’d see him then and “thanks for the extra session, though I know this is your job.” He smiled. (I was sort of hoping for a "take care," but oh well.)

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

T: "I'm not immune to you, LT." Me: "What?" T: "Things you say and do affect me. I'm not going to hide that. I'm trying to teach you how other people can be affected by what you choose to share. So that maybe you'll think more carefully about it before you share with them." Me: "...Are you trying to say if something like this happens in the future, I shouldn't share it with you?" T: "Well, you should really think about the effect it could have." Me: "But wouldn't something like that have therapeutic value? Like, say, why I was looking at your photo one week but not another?" T: "I'm just saying to think about what you share." Me: "And I know you're trying to get me to know how affect other people...but I'm not going to tell my friend that I missed her and looked at her photo. Well, possibly a family member, but...I think that's kind of normal."

This part seems off to me. It's almost like he's shutting part of you down. I get the relational part of what he's saying, that we can use the therapist to see how we deal with other people IRL. But at the same time, isn't therapy a place where we should feel free to share? I just had a rupture with my therapist over something like this. I shared something and he got defensive about it, but he's said since then that I should be able to share anything and feel safe, understood and accepted. (I think we've resolved this rupture now.) I feel like his statement puts you in a bind. "Go ahead and share and I'm going to react, but maybe you shouldn't share in the first place." I find this confusing.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Cross-posting from IST:
T yesterday—extra session to deal with stuff from Monday. Went back and sat down. T had printed a copy of my email from Monday night--I said I had a copy, too. He asked where I wanted to start. I said I probably should have figured that out before session. He suggested we start with the ex-MC part, and I said OK.

I'd said in email how it felt like Monday, T had said I'd done something wrong in telling ex-MC that I loved him, that I felt like he was saying that what happened with him was all my fault. T: "The only mistake you made was sharing something like that and not being prepared for him to have a big reaction to it." Me: "Um..." T: "I'm trying to help you understand how people can react to you. That in choosing to tell someone something, you need to understand how it can affect them and how they could react." Me: "OK...I get that, but...it still seems like you're trying to say it's all my fault what happened. When I don't think it was just me. I think it was some stuff with ex-MC, too."

T said he wasn't trying to assign blame, that some of ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries likely contributed. He mentioned ex-MC's excessive self-disclosure. T: "It probably felt to you that he was letting you into his world." Me: "Yes, it kind of did. I don't know that he realizes the effect it had on me or could have on other clients." T: "He probably doesn't." Me: "He'd say it's just who he is as a therapist."

I said I couldn't believe that I was the first client to tell him I loved him. T: "And Ex-MC is a lovable sort of guy, very warm and sensitive and caring. He's squishy." Me: "Yeah, it's why I said a stuffed animal made sense to represent him."

Me: "When you said boundaries, I assumed you meant because he was our marriage counselor." T: "Well, there's that, too. It complicated things." Me: "I kind of feel like...the way he was inconsistent, that he was sometimes willing to talk to me on phone but other times not, that he would sometimes reply to email sometimes not, that he would say we could talk about anything in session sometimes, then other times say we had to stick to marriage counseling stuff--it felt like that contributed to my insecure attachment." T: "Hm, like intermittent reinforcement. That makes sense." Me: "Yes, like sometimes he gave me what I wanted so I kept pushing him to get it, to get more of it."

I said sometimes I wished that I could have just been working with ex-MC, so that we could have fully addressed it. T: "Well, but that could have had its own set of problems. Then you would just be a man and a woman sitting in a room talking, with no H there." Me (thinking...isn't that what I'm doing right now with you?): "True."

Me: “Maybe I just define love differently, like I have a lower threshold. Where some people would think it means I’d take a bullet for them.” T: “That could be. Maybe for you it could be how someone makes you feel when you’re with them, for example.” Me: "Yes. So my saying love might seem scary to someone because of what they think it means. Which is different from what I mean. when I say it." Mentioned how a guy had dumped me after I said I loved him, and how I'd vowed never t say it first in relationship after that. And with people since then, including H, if I started feeling love toward them, it was like "Oh no, what if they can tell, what if they can figure it out." I forget what T said to that.

Said I wanted to cover some other topics in email too. Brought up the ever-present original stone, how his reaction to that still continued to affect me. I said it wasn't so much that I wanted an apology for what he said, I just wanted him to really understand why it upset me. Like when he called it "10% creepy" and compared it to digging through a celebrity's trash. T: "But remember, I said that was on the other end of the spectrum." Me: "But I don't want to be on that spectrum at all!"

I asked why he was OK giving me the stone now for the trip--was it because it was for a set period of time? T: "Maybe that's part of it, but it's really more that I know you better now and I think I understand what's going on with it."

Then I made the stupid decision to bring up looking at his photo. Me: "What I don't understand is why you were bothered by the stone when you thought it was about you, but then you seemed totally fine with my looking at your photo, which is very clearly about you. It's not like I was looking at a photo of the building." T: "Well, I wouldn't say I was totally fine with it. Maybe 5% bothered." Me (starting to cry): "What? I thought you were OK with it?" T: "But that's such a tiny amount. It's barely anything at all. I don't see why it's so upsetting." Me: "Because I don't want it to be any percent. I just want you to be OK with it."

T: "I'm not immune to you, LT." Me: "What?" T: "Things you say and do affect me. I'm not going to hide that. I'm trying to teach you how other people can be affected by what you choose to share. So that maybe you'll think more carefully about it before you share with them." Me: "...Are you trying to say if something like this happens in the future, I shouldn't share it with you?" T: "Well, you should really think about the effect it could have." Me: "But wouldn't something like that have therapeutic value? Like, say, why I was looking at your photo one week but not another?" T: "I'm just saying to think about what you share." Me: "And I know you're trying to get me to know how affect other people...but I'm not going to tell my friend that I missed her and looked at her photo. Well, possibly a family member, but...I think that's kind of normal."

I started crying, "I just have trouble internalizing things, internalizing other people's feelings for me. Not just with you, with anyone. So I need the outside things sometimes. And I don't want to have to hide that." I forget what T said to that. I asked if it would bother him if I went back and read some of his emails to me. He said no, that he wrote emails to clients with the thought that they might revisit them, so that's fine. Me: "OK, that's part of why I initially wanted you to reply to Monday's email, so I'd have it to look at. But then I realized I was sort of afraid of how you'd reply, and we'd only have Friday before the break, so..." T: "I think it's better we met. I've said some fairly harsh things today, and it's better that I'm able to see your reactions to those." Me: "Yes, some of this would have been even more difficult over email."

Me: "I know we're near the end, but there's one other thing I want to bring up that wasn't in the email but that I thought about from Monday." T: “Is this going to be a uncomfortable place to end session?" Me: "I don’t think so, I just want to clarify something, an impression I got." T: "OK." Me: "So when we were talking about secure attachment, you were listing various things you'd said, like told me you wouldn't abandon me, worked through conflicts with me, said that you'd tell me early on if something I did bothered you. And it sort of felt like...I got the sense that you were frustrated with me. But it's not easy, if I've had attachment issues my whole life, to just hear those things and be like, Oh, OK, everything's fine now. So...are you frustrated with me?"

T (in a caring voice): “I’m not frustrated with you, LT.” Me: "OK, thanks." T: "As you know, I can be rather intense at times." Me: "Yes." T: "When I was saying those things to you, it's because I really hate that you have to struggle with the attachment, I don't want you to be suffering." Me: "Oh. OK. Thanks."

T: "I know some of this has been difficult for you today." Me: "Yes." T: "You often seem to react more strongly than I expect you to. So I'll sometimes try to dial back the level of intensity or feedback for you." Me: "I appreciate that." T: "Sometimes I think maybe you need to tell me what you want from a topic, what you're looking for from me." Me: "OK." T: "But I am going to give feedback. Because I want to help learn to listen to and trust your internal voice first, rather than someone else's." I think I started crying here--or said something that prompted his next comment.

T: “Maybe the question should be: Do you think you can handle me?” Me: "...I think so." T: "OK. But just think about it." Me: "I will. But this makes me think of a recent forum post. Where someone had just started seeing a new T, and they were pretty harsh to them, but then they felt it was helping. And I replied to it, talking about you, saying how you say some harsh things to me as well. But that I wonder if I need to hear those harsh things and experience the emotions that come with them, in order to really get at those emotions and work on them. Like shame, for example. And I feel like I'm making progress with you, even though it's been painful at times. But I think maybe I have to do with the pain to move forward. Does that make sense?" T: "That makes a lot of sense." Me: "OK."

Confirmed Friday. T said would be fine to schedule half-hour call while I'm on vacation next week, that I could just text or email about a time. Went over and paid. Usually he stays seated while holding out his hand to me, but this time he stood up like on other side of his chair from me then was walking around to me, and I wasn’t sure if he’d forgotten the handshake and wondered why I wasn’t leaving or if he was going to shake it standing up. To break the awkwardness, I just held out my hand, and he shook it. Said he’d see me Friday, I said I’d see him then and “thanks for the extra session, though I know this is your job.” He smiled. (I was sort of hoping for a "take care," but oh well.)

I just think it's amazing how much detail you remember from your sessions. I remember a few things but I think I kind of space in sessions and in life in general, I definitely can't remember whole conversations. I think it's really cool that you do though. Even if the discussion I had was really good or really bad I'll only remember a small portion of it. It's like I have ice in my head or something.

[LonesomeTonight]

Series of email exchanges with Dr. T. Background: Last time I saw him was two Fridays ago. Then I went on vacation. We talked on the phone for a half hour on Wednesday. Then he went away. I'm used to seeing him twice a week, so the 11 days has felt really long (see him tomorrow). And he lent me a different stone (my choice) to take with me to the beach, since I was anxious for assorted reasons.

Friday night: Me: "Hi Dr. T,

A few things before next session. First, I think we need to talk about what I believe is dissociation (maybe derealization?), both currently and in childhood.

Second, I collected a bunch of shells at the beach. Would it be OK to bring a tiny one to add to the sand tray? (If not, it's OK!)

Finally, I know I'm due to return the stone Tuesday. Because that was the deal. But I wish I didn't have to give it back yet. I feel really sad when I think about setting it back in the sand tray. I want you to say, "It's fine, you can hold onto it!" But maybe that's asking too much? To answer your next question, yes, that's me asking you a question. But if you say no, I understand and will return it on schedule.
Thanks,
LT."
Sunday morning (he has always replied within 24 hours in the past, even when out of town):
T: "All good things to talk about on Tuesday. Also, for Tuesday would it be possible to shift our appointment time to either 11am or 1pm?"

Me: "I can do 11 a.m. Tuesday."

Me: "And I guess I wanted to know your answers to the shell and stone before Tuesday to avoid potentially having to deal with rejection in person. Or to spend the whole session trying to explain or justify why I'd want either of those things."

T: In response to the above email (not the time one): "Thank you - confirmed for Tuesday at 11am."

Sunday night:

Me: "It bothers me that you seem to have just ignored my other email, but it's a holiday weekend, so I shouldn't expect too much from you. I'll just return the stone Tuesday and not give a shell or anything. Then we can just go forward with therapy."

Monday morning:
Me: "I'm sorry, we'll talk Tuesday. Have a good Labor Day."

T: "LT,
I had originally tried to be clear that I was only responding to email in the mornings, but perhaps my reply regarding our schedule muddied things. Your replies have increased the number of things to talk about. I do not have a problem with your keeping the stone. Also, I have no problem with you putting something into the sand garden provided I have right-of-refusal if I don't like the way it looks aesthetically.

I realize that this gap in sessions has been a challenge, so I am assuming that some the tone and urgency of your emails comes from feeling that space. I intend on spending at least a little time talking about your perception of how your emails are likely to affect someone - and I will share how they effected me. I realize that you will probably be anxious thinking about that conversation, but know that I see this as an opportunity to learn and continue your growth and awareness. Also, hold in mind that I would not be OK with your keeping the stone and adding a shell if I was truly upset or mad at you. All will be well, and I have confidence in our ability to work this through in a positive manner."
--

Of course now I'm really nervous about tomorrow's session...