[LonesomeTonight]

I know some of you are commenting on the fact that I emailed him multiple times on a holiday weekend. I know that I messed up and shouldn't have done that. I usually do my best to avoid bothering him on holidays or if he's away. This really just sort of spiraled. He's also said before that I don't have to "take care of him" in terms of not emailing at various times, that he chooses when to check his email (text is different--that's for scheduling only). Just wanted to address that.

[Echos Myron redux]

I feel like he is the problem in this situation. He has been massively inconsistent with lots of different boundaries, not least out of session contact and this is a recipe for disaster with a client who struggles with attachment.

It is not okay for the therapist to invite this kind of situation through confusing and unclear guidance on what's okay and what's not, then to shame the client for overstepping. Not okay at all. This has been his way all the time he has been working with you. And I see you more anxious and more frequently expressing

Possible trigger:

sui thoughts

than I have ever seen you before. It worries me that his ridiculous policy of so-called honesty and his lack of decision making on boundaries are doing more damage than good. I know I see it differently to many other posters but I just don't see how his policy is helping you to feel empowered and heard. He is just re-shaming you like all the other 'male authority figures' as far as I can tell.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I know some of you are commenting on the fact that I emailed him multiple times on a holiday weekend. I know that I messed up and shouldn't have done that. I usually do my best to avoid bothering him on holidays or if he's away. This really just sort of spiraled. He's also said before that I don't have to "take care of him" in terms of not emailing at various times, that he chooses when to check his email (text is different--that's for scheduling only). Just wanted to address that.

It's not your fault LT.

[DP_2017]

LT
We have talked privately so you know my thoughts on all this but I did want to add a few things even though I tend to end up upsetting people more than anything here.

As someone else with anxiety, I get it. I used to have massive anxiety about T emails and it became really unhealthy. I would spend so much of my day just checking for a reply and then getting upset or freaked out if there was none or he didn't say what I wanted. I realized it did me no good. It also ended up leading to email misunderstandings which lead to a massive rupture and emails being done with all together. I see the misunderstanding part with you guys already. This is why I think it's so important to just wait on things and discuss in person. Yes rejection can be scary and no one wants to be rejected but it happens to everyone. I think with T's it can be painful for them to reject us but also helpful, as compared to others, they know how to manage it better and can help us through it. I have been rejected 3x by my T since this year began and he's still the most important person in my life. I think even though it hurts at the time, it helps me grow, so next time, don't be afraid, go in there and just say or do what you need, if it leads to a rejection, it sucks but you can get through it. You are stronger than you think.

Anxiety lies to us... I've worked alot with my anxiety in therapy and outside of therapy. I find that CBT stuff has been helpful, have you ever asked your T about this?! Mine gives me this worksheet. It helps you when you feel super anxious about something like "Oh I messed up, he will terminate" and helps you walk yourself through the anxious thoughts and see the logic in what really is... like how it's ok if you made a mistake, you are human, forgive yourself. Mistakes don't automatically lead to termination, there is many other options he could do. I have found it to be very helpful and if you wish, I'm more than happy to send you a copy of the sheet so you can use it yourself

This may seem harash but... The best thing you can do for YOU, and your growth, is to make your own boundaries. I'm not saying "Never email him again" But limit yourself. Don't email on holidays or even weekends unless it is urgent. T's do have lives outside of work and they deserve to enjoy them. No you don't have to take care of him, but you do have to take care of you and while this is painful, trust me, it's helpful. My T STILL says I can email whenever (although he says he wont reply) but I wont do it anymore. I have found myself feeling less anxious in a sense because I'm not constantly fretting over emails. Talking in person about things seems to be the most useful way to work them out. Also, at some point, you should start thinking of less frequency. I say this, because you spiraled so easily from a 1 day delay in a email and a response you didn't like, that it shows you are VERY attached and dependent on him, and I've been there and it's no fun and isn't healthy. I want to see you change your patterns and be able to enjoy things more, not let anxiety win. You can do this. I worry about how you will handle holiday break (Christmas, thanksgiving).

I personally don't like your T either, he's too harsh for my taste... BUT most people hate my T and he works for me. If your T works for you, that's all that matters. He's still allowing the stone, so that's good. Tomorrow is nearly here and hopefully you can talk through a lot of things related to all this.

[JaneTennison1]

He could have not opened or replied to the email very easily. This isn't on you for his poor boundaries. Ex t 1 reprimanded me for an email conversation we had. Last tim I checked it takes 2 to have a conversation and she could easily have no replied if she was bothered.

[ruh roh]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I know some of you are commenting on the fact that I emailed him multiple times on a holiday weekend. I know that I messed up and shouldn't have done that. I usually do my best to avoid bothering him on holidays or if he's away. This really just sort of spiraled. He's also said before that I don't have to "take care of him" in terms of not emailing at various times, that he chooses when to check his email (text is different--that's for scheduling only). Just wanted to address that.

If it helps you to know, I emailed a ton to my therapist over this weekend, related to a big breakthrough that's been unfolding. My therapist didn't think it was a bad thing at all, but it's also our arrangement that I can email as I need to and she'll respond when/if she can. Anyway, don't beat yourself up about emailing. If your therapist thinks it was a burden, he will tell you, but based on how he's handled other things, it will be done in a straightforward way. Also, it's not a bad idea to trust that he will get back to you when he can, and that he'll always tell you the truth about what he's thinking.

[Deejay14]

Yes DP , it's so much easier to set your own boundaries than to be a slave to your email or phone.

[unaluna]

(((LT))) Things might be spiraling for you, but i dont see that they spiraled for him. I see that he resisted being drawn into your spiral. He just kept repeating, we will talk about it tuesday.

I think if you look at your emails, you can see for yourself, the initial one was, as another poster said, not indicative of crisis, but pretty obviously just wanting to reach out.

But once you put that out there, wow "bossy LT" comes out. Can you write what is going on for you in that 24 hours, while you are holding your breath, waiting for him to get back to you? Yes, you are probably affecting him during that time, but what about the feelings you have set loose in yourself? Dont look out the window, look in your own heart.

His tone seems exasperated, disengaged from your needs, and cold. Whether or not you should have emailed him numerous times is not really up for discussion - it is simply a manifestation of your attachment/transference experiences and as such it is the therapy work itself. If a therapist engages in email contact, they need to be able to manage their feelings around the potential intrusions and associated significant client need. His annoyance is thinly disguised. I hope your session goes well.

[Lemoncake]

Originally Posted by unaluna

(((LT))) Things might be spiraling for you, but i dont see that they spiraled for him. I see that he resisted being drawn into your spiral. He just kept repeating, we will talk about it tuesday.

I think if you look at your emails, you can see for yourself, the initial one was, as another poster said, not indicative of crisis, but pretty obviously just wanting to reach out.

But once you put that out there, wow "bossy LT" comes out. Can you write what is going on for you in that 24 hours, while you are holding your breath, waiting for him to get back to you? Yes, you are probably affecting him during that time, but what about the feelings you have set loose in yourself? Dont look out the window, look in your own heart.

Well said Una.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

(((LT))) Things might be spiraling for you, but i dont see that they spiraled for him. I see that he resisted being drawn into your spiral. He just kept repeating, we will talk about it tuesday.

I think if you look at your emails, you can see for yourself, the initial one was, as another poster said, not indicative of crisis, but pretty obviously just wanting to reach out.

But once you put that out there, wow "bossy LT" comes out. Can you write what is going on for you in that 24 hours, while you are holding your breath, waiting for him to get back to you? Yes, you are probably affecting him during that time, but what about the feelings you have set loose in yourself? Dont look out the window, look in your own heart.

I'm not sure it's as much "bossy LT" as "little kid LT." The rational adult isn't there anymore. I thought about typing out what I had thought throughout the weekend regarding the emails, maybe to make him understand better. Like the emotions that came out. I want to also examine with him where those feelings come from. Like what from my past is being triggered? How can I process that so I don't keep repeating this pattern?

Originally Posted by Glowworm80

I don’t like your T’s interpretation of you having poor boundaries just because you get so affected by people and what they say. That is more a sensitivity and or/self esteem issue to me.

He seems to have more of a conventional psychodynamic object relational concept of boundaries, which is how i conceptualize them too.

This isn't the best diagram, just Googled, but when you are 2 separate people, you're boundaries look more like they do on the right. When you're enmeshed, you're boundaries look more like the left.



Lonesome-I think in disclosing his feelings to you about the stone is his way of trying to be separate from you in the effort to help you develop and solidify your sense of self; to get you from the left to the right circles. Maybe he is clumsy about it, but that is where I think it comes from.

When how you view yourself is dependent on the other person, such as a father figure, it can make you feel powerless as when you were a child. An infant doesn't think of itself separate from the parent-the circles are more overlapped with mother-child. If your parents didn't allow you to be autonomous, you don't grow up relating with the separate circles. With MC, you seemed to be stuck in the subset/area between the 2 sets/circles, which is enmeshed.

I have similar issues as you with male authority figures yet my Ts approach isn't similar to yours, probably just because he's psychoanalytic. He has taken a similar approach as far as not telling me his feelings. Telling feelings reinforces your self-concept depending on him. If he doesn't tell you how/why he felt that way, then you are forced to be yourself and separate.

I've never read such detailed therapy accounts as yours, so it's really interesting to see how this works out. I can tell you that it's very difficult to do therapy in a way that 'unenmeshes' you, so the more power to you to work through this stuff.

[stopdog]

Have you heard of the term King Baby? It is often used in recovery circles, but has wider application I believe. Most people have some of these tendencies, but it is an interesting thing to consider about how one reacts when one does not get what one wants when one wants it.
King Baby Characteristics - Alcoholics Anonymous - North East Wales
http://www.hopetrustindia.com/conten...baby’-syndrome
King Baby Syndrome - An Explanation For Our Addictive Personalities

Originally Posted by stopdog

Have you heard of the term King Baby? It is often used in recovery circles, but has wider application I believe. Most people have some of these tendencies, but it is an interesting thing to consider about how one reacts when one does not get what one wants when one wants it.
King Baby Characteristics - Alcoholics Anonymous - North East Wales
http://www.hopetrustindia.com/conten...baby’-syndrome
King Baby Syndrome - An Explanation For Our Addictive Personalities

Aren't all babies King Baby since they are all bundles of need with no understanding of the other? What's the difference between seeing our adult self as a baby as opposed to a King Baby?

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I'm not sure it's as much "bossy LT" as "little kid LT." The rational adult isn't there anymore. I thought about typing out what I had thought throughout the weekend regarding the emails, maybe to make him understand better. Like the emotions that came out. I want to also examine with him where those feelings come from. Like what from my past is being triggered? How can I process that so I don't keep repeating this pattern?

I think you should write it out. It can only help.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by SorryNorma

Aren't all babies King Baby since they are all bundles of need with no understanding of the other? What's the difference between seeing our adult self as a baby as opposed to a King Baby?

The articles quantify this.

Originally Posted by guileless

He seems to have more of a conventional psychodynamic object relational concept of boundaries, which is how i conceptualize them too.

This isn't the best diagram, just Googled, but when you are 2 separate people, you're boundaries look more like they do on the right. When you're enmeshed, you're boundaries look more like the left.



Lonesome-I think in disclosing his feelings to you about the stone is his way of trying to be separate from you in the effort to help you develop and solidify your sense of self; to get you from the left to the right circles. Maybe he is clumsy about it, but that is where I think it comes from.

When how you view yourself is dependent on the other person, such as a father figure, it can make you feel powerless as when you were a child. An infant doesn't think of itself separate from the parent-the circles are more overlapped with mother-child. If your parents didn't allow you to be autonomous, you don't grow up relating with the separate circles. With MC, you seemed to be stuck in the subset/area between the 2 sets/circles, which is enmeshed.

I have similar issues as you with male authority figures yet my Ts approach isn't similar to yours, probably just because he's psychoanalytic. He has taken a similar approach as far as not telling me his feelings. Telling feelings reinforces your self-concept depending on him. If he doesn't tell you how/why he felt that way, then you are forced to be yourself and separate.

I've never read such detailed therapy accounts as yours, so it's really interesting to see how this works out. I can tell you that it's very difficult to do therapy in a way that 'unenmeshes' you, so the more power to you to work through this stuff.

I won't derail LT's thread but I just wanted to thank you for this diagram.

[blackocean]

Originally Posted by SorryNorma

His tone seems exasperated, disengaged from your needs, and cold. Whether or not you should have emailed him numerous times is not really up for discussion - it is simply a manifestation of your attachment/transference experiences and as such it is the therapy work itself. If a therapist engages in email contact, they need to be able to manage their feelings around the potential intrusions and associated significant client need. His annoyance is thinly disguised. I hope your session goes well.

I agree with this, and also believe that this therapist should simply never have allowed email contact with OP except for scheduling or unless there is a true crisis, with clear definitions of what "crisis" means.

And this thing with the stone is also very weird. I don't know the whole story but: Either give it or don't give it. Don't give it, then take it away because you're weirded out, and then consult with people and report back to the client that these strangers agreed that your discomfort is valid and needs no explanation, and then give it again but only conditionally and then, knowing how important it is to her, when the client expresses worry over having to give it back, ignore her request to hold on to it. Doesn't this repeat the intermittent reinforcement pattern by the last therapist that caused such a problem and messed with OP's head, which you are talking about so much in therapy? Also, you don't need to tell her your explanation for your discomfort, but you need to tell her that you talked about her with strangers and that they agreed with your assessment and validated you? Why do you need to tell her this at all? Doesn't that only feed OP's fears about herself?

[blackocean]

Also OP I don't think your desire to have a stone is pathological and am a little frustrated for you that he has suggested it is pathological and caused you such anxiety about it, that something that should have been a small thing, a minor gesture of support, has become such a big deal between the both of you. Some people are sentimental and like to hold on to things that remind them of other people and places that make them feel safe or carry good feelings. I have bones and rocks on my desk from places I have visited, for example, or small items that remind me of friends. Rubbing smooth stones itself is therapeutic for anxiety, but especially if it is attached to a safe or happy place or person.

Therapy is meant to be such a place, in a way. As is common, when we started doing trauma work and I started panicking my therapist helped me find grounding memories of "safe places" to bring to mind when I am beginning to feel overwhelmed. He emphasizes that he wants to make the room a "safe place." You have very high anxiety and abandonment fears and a stone you can hold that reminds you of your therapist/the therapy room is a coping object. He could see it as a positive thing and encourage you to hold the stone instead of emailing him again when he hasn't emailed back, for example. If he knows you SH, this is especially weird. SH is the maladaptive mechanism and carrying/holding a stone is the healthy one--if the latter could help prevent the former then he should not be making you feel bad about needing it.

I think sometimes people don't consider the necessary distinction between "normal" or "common" and "pathological." No, most people don't need a transitional object from their therapist, just as most people don't need a cadre of happy memories in store to keep them from having a panic attack when triggered; I don't see how an object that eases the pain of separation for the unhealthily attached client outside the therapy room is maladaptive and necessary to "correct." I get that you are working on attachment in addition to anxiety and he is worried about dependency, but you still need a way to deal with these negative feelings when they get overwhelming. SH is harmful, the stone is healthy. There is literally something called a Worry Stone that is marketed and sold. So I just don't get it, unless there's something I'm missing.

[toomanycats]

OK I've ONLY read your email exchange, LT, on page 25...nothing beyond that. I want to give my unbiased "opinion."

To me, this looks like he simply was otherwise engaged and responded to the scheduling stuff ASAP as that stuff tends to need to be handled quickly and doesn't involve much thought. Ultimately, he realizes this has caused you added anxiety, and he attempts to fully respond to your emails -- plus accurately predicts your response/thoughts in reminding you that what he is saying would NOT be in line with the idea that he was mad at you.

The conversation he seems about to lead into is one my own T has had with me many times: having to talk about the effect I have on him/on people. It's a suggestion that sets off scary alarms of "I'm too much" in my head but has never really led down that path.

I think everything is truly OK. The conversation will be OK. Maybe you'll get some added insight about how you can affect him/his side of "the invisible conversation" so that you can more accurately predict what you cannot see.

[toomanycats]

Also, I don't think it's messed up to email multiple times on a holiday weekend.
He's a big boy. He can set his own boundaries.
And I emailed my T a few times this weekend too.

[toomanycats]

Also, I do not at all read exasperation in his tone.
I read nothing but calm, collected, "I've got this"/"I've got you/us" control. Not meeting your panic with panic, because he's not panicked. There's nothing to panic about. He's not angry, he's not upset at you, he's OK, you're OK, you're both together OK.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

Also, I do not at all read exasperation in his tone.
I read nothing but calm, collected, "I've got this"/"I've got you/us" control. Not meeting your panic with panic, because he's not panicked. There's nothing to panic about. He's not angry, he's not upset at you, he's OK, you're OK, you're both together OK.

I agre, i don't read exasperation in his tone either.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by toomanycats

Also, I do not at all read exasperation in his tone.
I read nothing but calm, collected, "I've got this"/"I've got you/us" control. Not meeting your panic with panic, because he's not panicked. There's nothing to panic about. He's not angry, he's not upset at you, he's OK, you're OK, you're both together OK.

Thanks, TMC. The email to me had the same tone he often uses--I think that's just his email tone. Which isn't all that different to how he talks in session really. I appreciate your other comments/posts, too.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

I agre, i don't read exasperation in his tone either.

Thanks, Velcro. I think the first time I read the email, I was projecting my fears and shame onto him. And then when I read it later, it just felt like he was talking to me, being Dr. T, trying to reassure me that things are OK.