[musinglizzy]

I just want to vent. The therapeutic relationship is often intense, intimate, one of the most trusting and open relationships one will ever have. Mine has got my mind so darn screwed up I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

My T is leaving for vacation tomorrow. Anyone else in my life, it wouldn't be such a secret. Small talk about where you're going, etc. I can't even ASK her where she's going. I have before...but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. But I AM curious. Is she leaving the country? Is she going to do something amazing? I don't know. She didn't offer, and I couldn't bring myself to ask. I hate the one-sidedness. I know that's the way therapy is, but it's so hard for me to accept. Heck, I'd have NO problem asking my doctor or someone like that...if they mentioned they were going away, I'd say "oh where are you going?" Why can't I do this with my T?? It feels different. Like I don't deserve to know. I hate being curious.

Another example. I have some pictures I want to bring in...but I want to be able to explain them, but I'm afraid to ask her to sit by me on the couch so I CAN point people out and explain things. She used to not only sit by me, but hold me. She stopped doing that, and has said that even with no touch involved, she won't sit by me on the couch. So remembering that, I haven't brought the photos in because I'm afraid to ask her to sit by me for a couple of minutes while we go through them together. I wouldn't think TWICE about something like this with anyone else. I'd rather not share them at all than risk her saying no to sitting together so we can go through them together.

I'm afraid this "therapeutic relationship" is harming me more than it's helping me. I know the boundaries are in place for a reason, but how can one learn to not be hurt by them? I've been hurting for TOO DAMN LONG.

It feels like I have to dissect everything related to therapy. I have to be on guard, watch what I say.... I know it's just me. My T has been very good to me in other ways. She's an excellent T. I think it's more me, attachment/rejection issues that are far too hurtful for me to move past. Therapy is supposed to help all of that. Instead, I feel worse, because those feelings in me have more than doubled.

I hate how Ts are so elusive. I always thought I was. Now I'm feeling wide open, bleeding all over everything.

I am so sorry

I left my first therapist for the reasons you mentioned. My "Therapeutic Relationship" was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I regressed, became completely dependent, and felt crippled under the power differential. The day I quit was one of the most painful, yet liberating experiences I have ever had.

My advice - if it's causing you pain, take a break from it, or try out somebody else and see how it feels. No relationship should make you feel like you're not good enough to be comforted, touched, or held. The therapeutic set-up can be outright cruel.

[musinglizzy]

Thank you.... I really appreciate your sharing that you, too, have felt this way.

[musinglizzy]

It's like I feel worse about myself, even more undeserving, than I did before starting therapy. I don't think that's right, and I'm trying to move past it. I was better off before I had any of these feelings. I was better off just dealing with my past, and my current troubles without adding yet another thing to the list.

[ruh roh]

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with her vacation and all that it highlights for you about your relationship. It bothers me that she seems to have encouraged a level of closeness that she wasn't willing to maintain. It can't feel anything other than punitive and distancing.

As for the pictures...I take in pictures all the time. Many are photographs. We sit across from each other. I hand them to her one or two at a time and explain them. If she isn't sure who is who, she holds it up and points, asking who the person is. Once, she placed the picture standing up on the table next to her so that we could both see it, and we talked about it.

I'm sharing that just to show that it's possible to share pictures without having to sit next to each other but still interact and explain things. I also hand her my phone to look at pictures, or bring in my laptop and turn the screen around. But those are for current day digital photos. The old ones I do the other way. It works just fine.

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

It's like I feel worse about myself, even more undeserving, than I did before starting therapy. I don't think that's right, and I'm trying to move past it. I was better off before I had any of these feelings. I was better off just dealing with my past, and my current troubles without adding yet another thing to the list.

I feel the same way. I have gone on with my life, but I feel a lot more damaged than I did before. I was always so scared he would tell me I was repulsive and disgusting and he would quit working with me and that is what happened. I couldn't even pay someone to look at me and help me. I have given up on so much in my life. I just survive now. I accept that is the way it is. I don't want more or better or different. I will live this way until I die. I don't care.

[musinglizzy]

Thanks ruh roh... I may just do that if I share them. Hand them over one at a time. I thought about scanning them and Emailing them to her instead, so I could write a brief description under each. It's so stupid I even think this way. Seriously.

Puzzlebug, thank you. You have always been a good support to me on the boards. I feel a lot like you do. So how long have you been out of therapy? The scary thing for me is just what you said. I could quit, and just keep moving on with my life the way it is, but I would walk away more damaged than when I came in. I keep hoping if I stick it out I will "be healed." After all, I feel like I have been hurt further there. Like ruh roh said, she did encourage a level of closeness she wasn't willing to maintain. And when she took it away, it was with no discussion at all. What I think, how I felt, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But my level of self worth went down a few dozen notches after that. I didn't deserve it, I guess. I told her I wish it never happened, because I was just fine before she introduced that level of care. She said she's never been physical like that with anyone, until me. I asked her "and what made ME so damn special?"

[stopdog]

I find not having to make small talk a good thing. I don't care where the therapist is going on her vacation. I don't want to have to appear interested in what she does in her real life.

Some people it seems find use in looking at it as a relationship and others don't. It seems this therapist is content to just let you bonk off the therapy walls while she sits and watches.

It doesn't sound like it is going well for you at the moment. I think it is so hard to know whether to quit or persist. We have such hopes for the relationship. We hope that we can work through things. Hugs.

[TheWell]

I ask my therapist if he is going anywhere good. He tells me where he's going. I don't ask personal questions but where you are going on vacation doesn't seem personal to me. I don't tend to ask many questions. Maybe that's why he can tell me where he's going.

[junkDNA]

my T is pretty open and not elusive. but i dont ask that many personal questions. sorry you feel like the relationship is damaging you.

Here were the warning signs I should have listened to:

1) Obsessively thinking about the therapist
2) Not functioning well between sessions
3) Over-valuing the relationship compared to other, more 'real' relationships
4) Distancing myself from friends and family members
5) Wishing the therapist was my parent
6) Longing for the therapist whenever I felt upset
7) Feeling like I won the lottery when the therapist emailed
8) Decreased interest in work
9) Feeling like a child who lost their mommy when the therapist went on a vacation
10) Excessively internet researching the therapist
11) Distress seeing other clients
12) Distress if the sessions didn't go perfectly
13) Distress thinking about therapy ending someday

See? Not healthy. Something had to change.

[divine1966]

Hmm. I have no problems asking where is t going on vacation. None whatsoever. I would not ask anything too intimate but we often chat about mundane stuff. We both love to travel so topics of travel comes up a lot. I generally like to ask people about travels ( like to get ideas and opinions on places)

I am not attached or have intense relationship with t, yet I can ask whatever the heck I want ( of course appropriate).

I thought it should be the other way around. If you have such close relationship and are attached you should be able to ask and if you are kind of neutral then you wouldn't ask?

Why is it the other way around?

I had to edit to add that I would be very concerned if relationship with t was my closest and the most open relationship. It would bother me. I don't think it should be.

Would you want to change that? I send you my best wishes

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[ruh roh]

Her actions and decisions do not define you; they define her.

Your worth is not wrapped up in whatever she does or doesn't do.

[Gavinandnikki]

Ultimately, it was the pain of my transference feelings and finally accepting that NO MATTER WHAT, my therapist would/could never be my..... fill in the blank, anything except therapist....lover, mother, friend ....the pain - that caused me to end therapy.

Couldn't take it anymore. My heart ached (bled) when I was with her and a whole lot of the time I wasn't with her.

Too much. I'm better now.
Only you will decide to stay or to go. It took me a long time to decide.

Try not to be so harsh on yourself. Your feelings are normal.

[unaluna]

Its like the t is the one with borderline. Why are you pussyfooting around her? Are you afraid she is going to get mad, or take something away? I would agree that the relationship has changed, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We change, we learn, we move forward. Whats the worst that could happen? You ask where shes going, she says shed rather not say. You say sorry, you didnt mean to pry and call her the b-word. NOW youre doing therapy. I walked into my ts office this morning and told him it smelled stuffy and asked him if he was eating salami again. He said how did you know? And thinking about it on the bus home i wished people on pc had this kind of relationship with their ts. Theyre just people. But yeah it took me a loooooong time to get there.

Originally Posted by hankster

Its like the t is the one with borderline. Why are you pussyfooting around her? Are you afraid she is going to get mad, or take something away? I would agree that the relationship has changed, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We change, we learn, we move forward. Whats the worst that could happen? You ask where shes going, she says shed rather not say. You say sorry, you didnt mean to pry and call her the b-word. NOW youre doing therapy. I walked into my ts office this morning and told him it smelled stuffy and asked him if he was eating salami again. He said how did you know? And thinking about it on the bus home i wished people on pc had this kind of relationship with their ts. Theyre just people. But yeah it took me a loooooong time to get there.

I love this.

Not all therapists are as cool as yours.

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by hankster

Its like the t is the one with borderline. Why are you pussyfooting around her? Are you afraid she is going to get mad, or take something away? I would agree that the relationship has changed, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. We change, we learn, we move forward. Whats the worst that could happen? You ask where shes going, she says shed rather not say. You say sorry, you didnt mean to pry and call her the b-word. NOW youre doing therapy. I walked into my ts office this morning and told him it smelled stuffy and asked him if he was eating salami again. He said how did you know? And thinking about it on the bus home i wished people on pc had this kind of relationship with their ts. Theyre just people. But yeah it took me a loooooong time to get there.

Wow. I guess I didn't think of it that way....that's why outside opinions are so nice. I guess if I asked her where she was going she'd tell me. She always has. But if for some reason she doesn't want to say, then I'd feel rejected. So I'd rather not take that chance that she doesn't want to share. I've no reason to think she wouldn't share...but who knows. I'm not sure what I'm afraid of. Her terminating me when I have been through SO much with her and she knows just about everything....changing things more, which would make me less comfortable. Unfortunately my safety comes in things being familiar....actually, that's probably true for most. Haha...I'd never call my T a *****, but I suppose if I did, that would be therapy, wouldn't it? LOL

[SkyscraperMeow]

I quit my ineffective therapist and found a new one. He's awesome. I'm happy.

Your process is your process, but from my perspective, watching you struggle through this makes me sad. I've seen you hurt. I've seen you angry. And then I've seen you announce that you've decided to stay with your T to save the relationship.

And I thought, well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's some arcane reason why it's a good thing for her to keep seeing this woman who has stripped her of emotional safety, diminished her feelings, and refuses to allow dialog on the subject.

And now you're here.

There are hundreds, nay, thousands of therapists out there. And almost any one of them would be better than your current one.

Your argument for staying is that you have so much invested with her. That's what we call the sunk costs fallacy. It causes people to throw good money after bad, because they've already invested so much that they can't bear to admit they made a mistake.

But here, it's worse. Because not only are you dumping screeds of money into this pit of emotional turmoil, you're putting your self worth, sense of well being and mental health on the line too.

And for what? For the return of an illusion which was temporary at best and completely unethical at worst?

There's a reason most therapists don't snuggle with their clients. Or coo lovingly to their own children in front of their clients, or any one of the half-dozen other completely unhinged things this woman has done with you and to you.

Here's what I think. I think you're going to continue to struggle with this and her. And then I think one of two things will happen. You will leave her, and find an ethical therapist who can actually help and you will feel empowered at having done so, OR you will continue this dramatic spiral of increasingly hurt feelings and eventually be one of the people posting 'my T terminated me' threads.

This woman is actively harming you and you know it. There's really only one choice to be made here, at this stage it really depends on whether you jump or will be pushed.

^Sometimes an illusion is all one will ever have. Why would anyone take that away?

[musinglizzy]

Originally Posted by SkyscraperMeow

I quit my ineffective therapist and found a new one. He's awesome. I'm happy.

Your process is your process, but from my perspective, watching you struggle through this makes me sad. I've seen you hurt. I've seen you angry. And then I've seen you announce that you've decided to stay with your T to save the relationship.

And I thought, well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's some arcane reason why it's a good thing for her to keep seeing this woman who has stripped her of emotional safety, diminished her feelings, and refuses to allow dialog on the subject.

And now you're here.

There are hundreds, nay, thousands of therapists out there. And almost any one of them would be better than your current one.

Your argument for staying is that you have so much invested with her. That's what we call the sunk costs fallacy. It causes people to throw good money after bad, because they've already invested so much that they can't bear to admit they made a mistake.

But here, it's worse. Because not only are you dumping screeds of money into this pit of emotional turmoil, you're putting your self worth, sense of well being and mental health on the line too.

And for what? For the return of an illusion which was temporary at best and completely unethical at worst?

There's a reason most therapists don't snuggle with their clients. Or coo lovingly to their own children in front of their clients, or any one of the half-dozen other completely unhinged things this woman has done with you and to you.

Here's what I think. I think you're going to continue to struggle with this and her. And then I think one of two things will happen. You will leave her, and find an ethical therapist who can actually help and you will feel empowered at having done so, OR you will continue this dramatic spiral of increasingly hurt feelings and eventually be one of the people posting 'my T terminated me' threads.

This woman is actively harming you and you know it. There's really only one choice to be made here, at this stage it really depends on whether you jump or will be pushed.

Your post is eye-opening...thank you! You gave me a lot to think about....some soul searching to do... I guess the reason I stay...short answer...I'm attached to her. And I do have a lot invested. It was great work getting here. I try to figure out if my emotions are more to dealing with the subject matter in therapy, vs. this other stuff. I really have fought this. I've really tried to put in an effort. I've disclosed some ENORMOUS things to her recently, things I have never spoken of before, EVER. I pushed myself...figured if I just forced myself back into therapy I'd get over this crap and keep going. Maybe this is all triggered by her vacation, I don't know. But I still never recovered from what happened in March... if I quit, I'll convince myself I've failed, but if I stay....well, I keep feeling this way. Maybe I'll feel this way if I leave, too. I'm sure I will be reading your post over and over again, trying to figure things out in my own head. Thank you!

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Mistysea

^Sometimes an illusion is all one will ever have. Why would anyone take that away?

That is a horrifying thought that illusion is all we have. I refuse to live in illusion. Why would anyone willingly want to?

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[divine1966]

Originally Posted by musinglizzy

Your post is eye-opening...thank you! You gave me a lot to think about....some soul searching to do... I guess the reason I stay...short answer...I'm attached to her. And I do have a lot invested. It was great work getting here. I try to figure out if my emotions are more to dealing with the subject matter in therapy, vs. this other stuff. I really have fought this. I've really tried to put in an effort. I've disclosed some ENORMOUS things to her recently, things I have never spoken of before, EVER. I pushed myself...figured if I just forced myself back into therapy I'd get over this crap and keep going. Maybe this is all triggered by her vacation, I don't know. But I still never recovered from what happened in March... if I quit, I'll convince myself I've failed, but if I stay....well, I keep feeling this way. Maybe I'll feel this way if I leave, too. I'm sure I will be reading your post over and over again, trying to figure things out in my own head. Thank you!

You don't have leave therapy, just this therapist. It's like leaving bad relationship, you aren't quitting relationships, you are just leaving that one bad one

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[musinglizzy]

She actually suggested I see a colleague while she's gone, so I have an appt with one next week. She encouraged me to talk to him about my issues with our "therapeutic relationship." I'm going to try... but I may chicken out.

[unaluna]

I may be confusing you with someone else, but if you feel stuck with your husband so you go to therapy, then you feel stuck with your therapist - the problem is probably not your therapist nor your husband, but that when things get unpleasant, you say, "well im stuck, watcha gonna do, i dont want things to get worse than they already are." That makes sense to me about the husband, cuz if you have like kids and stuff, you do have to take things into consideration. But with a t - i think they are more interchangeable or exchangeable than h's.

Altho i must admit, ive kept some of my ts longer than i kept my h's. But dont count that! but seriously, what is that pattern of feeling stuck about? What small things can or do you succeed at, that show you that you can unstick yourself from bigger stuff?