The "Therapeutic Relationship"

I don't think it's a fantasy. He works for musing's therapist. Conflict of interest. He will not be unbiased.

Actually, I do not. I am in a stable healthy relationship with my wife of ten years(I am also female). I do have abandonment issues but not with her (maybe our first 1-2 years together) but no longer. I also have a lot of friends and it does not happen with them. It happens with 3 women in my life (one is my t) that I have some kind of EXTREME maternal transference with. If I didn't go to therapy it wouldn't happen with her......so I don't mean to talk about myself in this thread but I so relate to the original poster. Why go, if the relationship causes more hurt than what you came in for? I go once a week and my goal is to go to every other by August. We will see if this helps.

Also, I agree with stopdog in that I do believe some therapists cause this (knowingly or unknowingly).

I think its in their best interest to ultimately get a good recommendation from lizzy, not to keep her running around in circles. Her orig t thought this other guy would have been better for her from the beginning. To me, that means orig t knew her own limitations and acknowledged the other guys expertise. The fantasy i speak of is some transference slash conspiracy theory - i dont understand where its coming from.

Also, I wrote this exact thread a few months ago when I was in this exact position. What I did was say "$&@! It" and I sent the email to my t. I laid it all out there. Not caring where it took me. It was empowering. I even stated that I need touch from her other than hugs. That I need her to sit by me sometimes and put her hand on my back. I said I understood if she can't but then I wanted to talk about therapies that do--somatic experiencing maybe.....I also wanted to talk about emdr (my wife is a t and wants me to try this). I explained how hard it would be for me to leave, how attached I was to her and how it felt like my relationship with my mom (who allowed no touching to occur). I said I was worse now then when I started......I mean I just laid it all out there. Understanding that she may want to refer me. This is what happened. First, I felt empowered. I was finally taking control of my therapy. The powers was mine, not hers. She met me half way. She said she would sit by me and touch my back. She said she was scared I would "get stuck" but would do it and would not say no. She does it with the boundary of "not all the time". She also talked about other therapies and was open to me trying them saying I could do both (her and emdr) for a transition or she would be right where she is if things didn't work out somewhere else. I also believe the letter made her understand more how intense the transference was which made her know how to help me better. All of this made me relax a little more in the relationship (it is not perfect) and we will see how it all ends. But I say.......throw it all out there, take back your power. Be brave and tell her her lack of consistency has really sucked because it has!

Actually, she already had a pretty full client base, and knew she wouldn't be able to get me in with her right away, which is why she suggested him in the beginning. My T is a psychologist, he is a social worker. She has told me (not in these words) that as a trauma T, I won't find anyone locally who is any more qualified than she is. When she suggested this other guy, she knew nothing about me except that I was having issues in my marriage....so I don't think she tried to refer me to him for any other reason than she didn't know if she'd have any availability for a new client at that time. Well, it took a few weeks, but she got me in. I have tried to picture seeing him for this one session, but I feel like he can't be unbiased when it comes to his boss.

Complicated but can have positive benefits for you in a sense of understanding yourself, raising self of esteem. How to set and respect boundaries. All these and more can be accomplished if the therapist themselves have good boundaries, patience are empathic and caring.

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My dog and I went for a walk in the woods to clear my head. I found a four leaf clover on the way! Anyway, I thought about this post, and tried to do some soul searching. My T is wonderful in just about every way. I feel like she's made mistakes, yes, but I second guess myself....who says I'm right? And I also think, she's human, and any T can/will make mistakes with people. So I am taking the blame on myself, not that she made mistakes, but that I can't move past them. So I thought about why I can't move past them... I think it's because I haven't talked to her enough about it, to process it, to put the subject to bed. Ok, so keep following the line down, I thought of why I haven't talked to her enough about it. Why do I feel I can't? Well, because I'm afraid that if I keep talking about this, she will ultimately decide I can't let this go and that it affects my therapy and maybe I need to see someone else. I'm afraid if I keep bringing the subject up until I can really fully process and get over it that she'll terminate me. I'm so afraid of boundaries changing that it consumes me, I'm always looking for what's gonna change next. Like now this being the first vacation that she hasn't said I can check in. Well, it's also the first vacation since our rupture, so of course I think to myself this is yet another new boundary. I'm sure I'm just being oversensitive. She deserves to leave work here! And I wouldn't contact, but just knowing I can is helpful. Yes, I've felt very hurt by my T. But I also think back on how she has gone out of her way for me, and that makes me think I need to see the good, and let go of the bad. My T has rearranged her schedule for me in the past. She has kept my sessions even though she canceled all others when she was going through some stuff. Because she felt I needed them (she didn't tell me this till months later). She has ELIMINATED my copay. That's money that's not being put in her pocket. She knew things were rough financially, so first she reduced it, then she took it away completely. She has made herself available by text or Email ANYtime. And she has spent a great deal of her own time staying in touch with me. I see her twice a week, but she wants me to check in still, in between sessions. I feel guilty about that and don't always do it. So I feel like my T is available 24/7 if I need her. I've talked to her via text or Email on holidays, even on the day she got married last summer! She has made me feel 'thought about' by texting me pictures of things she knows I'll appreciate when she's on vacation. To get a text or Email from her in the middle of the night while she's on the other side of the world has been priceless for me. She doesn't get reimbursed for any of this. So, even though I whine about the things I think she's done wrong, I also don't mention all of the good, selfless things she has done for me. She says she's done nothing, but she has. Once she told me "you're just as important as anyone else, and more important than many." I'm pretty sure she is closer to me than she is many others, I don't know why, there's truly nothing special about me. I assume she feels sorry for my story, but I try to tell it in a way as not to get sympathy for it, because I don't want it. In fact, I'd rather just pick up right now and change my life moving forward, then revisit the things in the past. But she says I need to. I've told her things I've never told anyone, or written or said out loud. And that has made it easier for me to talk to others. My step brother (same age) molested me when we were just 9. I never spoke of it. But in talking about him, one day she said "I find something really interesting about your relationship with him." I felt like she sensed something...and that just came out. I never intended to tell anyone that. Just during my last session, I told her I keep alcohol stashed around the house. But I don't drink it. I just talk big and say I will. So there's something about a connection with someone who while in their presence, things just come out on their own. There are some things I'm holding back, and she knows that, but she doesn't push me. I feel like the problem is more me than her. Because people are going to make mistakes sometimes, even T's. I'm not an unforgiving person. But I've really found myself having big time issues with just letting this stuff go. It just hurt too much. Up until March, she was the most perfect T for me. She was everything I could have ever asked for. All of this is why I have a hard time letting her go. I guess I tend to focus more on the negative, the mistakes I feel she's made, than all of the good, selfless things she has done for me. Do I feel like I owe her? Well, it doesn't feel that way, but maybe. But more than that, I think about leaving, then I think about what my life would be like without seeing her, without having her to Email whenever I need, without getting those check in texts once in awhile, or a beautiful photo of a plant, and I think of how empty my life would be then. A therapist can't fill up my life... but if she can help it not feel so empty for right now, I'll certainly take it. Aside from her, and people here, I have no one to talk to. I've always been afraid of pushing people away by whining about my life. Depression has a hold on me very hard. And I feel like I've been pushing her away too. Lets face it, I have. I'm trying hard to make up for it by disclosing some pretty heavy things...but in the end, I still feel awful, only now moreso because I opened up a new can of worms with big disclosures.

I have been so thankful for people here, because I sure questioned myself....maybe I was overreacting, or being unreasonable. But people here took my stories as mistakes on her part also, which helped me not blame myself quite so much. But I think I really wish she would see just SOME of them as mistakes herself. I'm so sensitive to everything now. She was always RIGHT on time. I never had to worry about my session not starting on the hour. Lately it seems like she's slacking in that a bit. She has some clients she sees for a full hour (my sessions are 50 minutes, but I also see her twice a week). Clients she only sees once a month or so get a full hour. As do couples. So lately, it seems like the clients ahead of me have a full hour session. She'll get out late with them....apologize, then have to run to the rest room, and by the time my session gets going, it's nearly 10 after. Honestly, I don't mind. She's usually good at making up the time at the end of the session, and there have been times she's kept me a little longer than 50 minutes. But I just notice lately it's becoming more and more common, when it never used to happen at all. I'm just super sensitive to things right now.....I hate it.

I agree most of this comes from abandonment issues. I have and sometimes do feel this way but I think I would with any T I get attached to. I did feel that way with boyfriends I didn't trust. I never did with my husband who I completely trust. Hmmm so I guess for me it's an insecurity issue that has to be dealt with vs finding another T. Because this could happen again.

I wish I knew how to advise you. If your therapist had ever admitted fault with the holding you thing I would really encourage you to keep trying. Because I feel overly attached, emotional, feel heartbroken being separated from my T--- and she says this is a normal part of dealing with my fundamental wounds. Part of you DOES become very childlike and dependant. She says it's very very hard and when therapy gets very tough. We focus on teaching my adult mind strategies to deal with the upset child emotional self. We also work in session to reassure that child part of me. It's hard and it hurts. What my T keeps reminding me is it isn't my relationship with HER that is creating the pain, it's how my relationship with her touches those deep unsealed wounds. So at some point therapy, at least for deep seated trauma issues IS really hard and painful.

However I think your therapist just either isn't very good or else has some kind of block where you are involved. Other therapists are out there. The way she handled the touch thing seems so cruel to me.

No, she never admitted fault. It was something that was never discussed before she started doing this, or during. Or even after. It wasn't discussed until almost a month went by and I realized she wasn't offering it anymore (it wasn't every session, and was only for the last few minutes of a session when it was). So I brought it up to her. I was hurt that she didn't tell me in the beginning that this was a temporary boundary crossing for her. I was hurt that she didn't talk to me about any feelings behind it, or that she even told me when she took it away. So I wasn't upset that she took it away so much, but that she wouldn't discuss it with me, or let me know it was only temporary. She said at that point if it hadn't been that that caused a rupture, it would have been something else. So she carries no blame in how she handled things. And I say she should have discussed it with me if not before or during, when she decided to take it away. I asked her prior to this about boundaries, and she pretty much listed off just one, and that was no gifts. Well by then I'd already done a painting for her and given it to her....she didn't say anything at the time. So no, she doesn't think she handled anything incorrectly at all. If she would consider admitting she should have done something different, I think I could move on. She also won't tell me what exactly made her decide to stop. Because I feel it was a disclosure I made. She assured me that nothing I did made her stop, but she won't tell me what did.

It would also definitely bother me that she isn't open to discuss it or admit she was partly at fault. That's one thing I particularly like about my marriage counselor--that he's willing to admit that he messed up in how he handled something or that he misunderstood me, things like that.

You mentioned in another post on here that you keep worrying that she'll take something else away, and I think you were worried about accidentally touching her hand on the stairs (right?) I completely understand this, because if you don't know *why* something happened, then you don't know how to keep it from happening again. Which leads to anxiety and insecurity. As for assuming it was something you said, I get what you mean there, too. It was almost right after I told MC that I loved him that he seemed to start pulling back. So without any other information, I had to assume it was because of that. Which really hurt, because he'd reassured me before that nothing I said would cause him to reject me or go anywhere. He did try to explain all that a bit more, and seemed to understand why I thought that, but I think we need to have more discussion about it. If your T won't even discuss the issues with you, then that seems really painful and frustrating.

Yup. You're right about my other posts. Thank you very much for that thought.... that since I don't know why something happened, I don't know how to keep it from happening again. That's exactly it! That's why many have said that it's possible she just got too attached, and when she realized it, she spooked. Either that or she confided in a colleague or something about me, and they told her she was "in too deep." These are the only things I can come up with, and of course, she wouldn't want to admit either of those to me . That would be admitting possible wrong-doing I suppose. But yes, I'm driving myself crazy watching and waiting for the *next* thing to be taken away or changed. Now she didn't offer checking in while she's gone. I wouldn't think anything of it except that she has always made a point to offer before. Ugh. I'm driving myself crazy.

I am kind of shocked - i know, right? - that she was SOOOO available sooooo early in your work together. Its like the illusion of closeness it provided obscured the fact that a strong foundation was not being built. Now youre left with this shaky foundation which she refuses to acknowledge in any way. ??

I think that's why I just can't seem to get past it. She was a dream in the beginning. She said she did those things to help gain my trust, and when she felt it was sufficient, she stopped offering those things. I told her it's funny that the very thing she did to earn my trust is what shattered it. If she'd have taken her time and done it the right way I wouldn't feel the way I do. She said she's never "been physical" like this with anyone else in over 20 years as a psychologist....I was sarcastic when I replied "then what made ME so special?" She said I was in a very dark place and feeling very alone. Well, I'm worse now than I was then, that's for sure.

That'd what struck me about Lizzy's story. My T does many of the things she spoke of and other things people would think are even weirder. But it was a slow process getting there. Nearly a year before we hugged for the first time. Almost 2.5 years in the first time she held me. 2 years in the first time she texted me for non scheduling purposes. Every thing happened slowly when I was ready/able to ask for it meaning the trust was already built.
It's ime Lizzy's T did it backwards. .

For me, all of these things started happening within the first four months!
The first time she sent me a text was during a vacation, where she sent me pics of a landmark she was at. The pics were beautiful, and I have to admit I was touched that she was thinking about me. I never had her cell number before that.

Granted my T is a very very physically gentle and respectful person...but still she waited for me to ASK for things like touch. Meaning I ALREADY trusted her enough to take the risk of being rejected. By four months in I wouldn't even sit on the floor yet.

It just seems like she doesn't think quite clearly where you are involved

Now *i* want to see the guy t just to hear what he has to say about all this. I cant imagine him defending it. Maybe she wants you to see him because she realizes she has backed herself into a corner. She has things she needs to deal with, but they are not your issues to deal with. I would cut my losses and move on. Things are only going to get more intense, and she has already proven herself inadequate. She may have 20 years experience, but not in depth. It takes a bit to shock me ya know!

Part of me is just afraid he'll defend her and agree because she's his boss. I just don't want to hear I'm wrong from him.... I'm always wrong. I just don't feel that way about this.

Would it be possible to add on another T while you're seeing this one/ I agree with the other posters here that your T is doing your transference attachment wrong. She's withdrawing from you while you're still very "regressed" and, in my opinion, she should wait for you to grow more. It looks like forcing the process, and that is unnecessary agony for you. There's enough deprivation in therapy just by time between appointments and what naturally happens, without her doing it on purpose. But if you could start seeing someone else, too, it could be an easier transition. I wouldn't even tell the first T. She doesn't deserve to know. But I realize it's so hard when you're in deep therapy and having feelings stronger than you can endure. Therapy should be a maturing process, not just a repeat of the trauma that started your problems in early life.

I considered that, I know there are a couple people on here who have more than one T. Perhaps this post has given me the kick in the butt required to find out if I can do this. I don't know if my insurance company will pay for two T's...and unfortunately I can't afford to pay out of pocket. Thank you Restin, yes, I'm in very deep therapy right now, and I know inside I feel a little needy. I try not to make her aware of this. She flat out asked me how I felt about her leaving, and I said I'm fine. I'm not devastated by any means, but I am sorry she's gone... we're in the middle of some pretty tough stuff in therapy right now. I also don't work in the summertime so I don't have that distraction. If I had work to go to, that would definitely help me stay in a better place. Yeah, she has really hurt me. But at the same time, I am also so attached and practically dependent on her. I try to remember who/how she was before she changed boundaries. And how safe I felt. I have a list of things to accomplish in the next week...to try to keep my mind and hands busy.

I hope you don't mind...I've been talking to my T about your this situation. From what I can tell her...she is saying the same things. Some how your T has found out she introduced touch in the wrong way, became too attached or a colleague has advised her. But if it was a mistake, your T should admit it. We all make mistakes. And it does mess up your trust...wondering what is the next thing she will take away?

Trust is powerful.

I figured out today that I have a big reaction to your situation because-

1) I feared it would happen in my current T relationship. It made me question what we were doing in therapy...what is the process? I was relaxed and trusting, then I became scared. Now we are working to build my trust back...

2) I have experienced this before: The perp psychiatrist- I innocently let him in...cared about him...and I loved the person he let me see.
We became intimate.....then he changed the relationship. I felt hurt and confused.
He took touch and intimacy away...and he would not explain it to me. I asked. He refused to explain it to me.....and he made my confusion my fault!

"You promised me you could handle this!"

Your T needs to discuss this with you as long as you need to. She needs to admit any mistakes. It wasn't your fault- so whose fault must it be?

Im thinking of you.

From what I've read about your situation...it wasn't necessary for your T to act this way...take touch away and not discuss it until you caught it and brought it up. It sounds pretty cruel, to me.

I appreciate very much that you would take my story to your T! That really touches my heart, thank you! I don't mind at all, I'm thankful! It's interesting your T also said the same things, either she got too attached or was discussing me with someone, who told her she shouldn't be doing what she was doing.

Honestly, I've read your posts too, for you to trust at all is HUGE...it shows how strong you are if you can open your heart and learn to trust a T after what you've been through. We are all vulnerable in this journey, and Ts should know that more than anything. It sounds like you have a patient, understanding T. So nothing happened, you just kinda had a feeling all of a sudden? I don't recall, but I hope your old T (who did take advantage of you, even if you were a willing participant) is no longer practicing! Thank you so much for the feedback, from you and your T!

Thanks. It was the decision she made not to talk to me about it that has me losing my mind now. Even though I've talked to her about it, I really didn't get any satisfaction, and I always worry if something feels a little "off," is she changing something else? I'm hypersensitive about it. Since she didn't talk to me about it that time, why would she discuss any changes to her boundaries now? She knows that all of this could have been avoided if she would have talked to me about it, without waiting for me to notice and bring it up myself. It's obvious I wasn't counting on it all the time, I see her twice a week and it took just shy of a month for me to really notice that she wasn't doing that anymore. She told me she gradually tapered off. No, she didn't. I was keeping a therapy journal at the time, and actually have it written in there when she ended up doing that. Three sessions in a row she did that (which was unusual), and after the third session, she never left her chair. That was in February.