intense session

last session was really intense. i missed the one on monday 'cause i was still sulking or something, i guess. was thinking it would be easier (for me emotionally) to withdraw from him rather than going through a deep sense of abandonment and isolation and like the bottom had fallen out of my world. missing the session was about as painful as going to see him, though. so i went in on friday.

he had supervision about what was going on with us. figuring out what to make of / how to use the counter-transference feelings, i guess. he wanted to share the interpretation that made sense for him in the supervision session, i guess. i want to say (fairly clearly) that he delivered it very gently and he was clear (and seeming to be very genuine) in not blaming me at all. he also said that it was just one take... and that there could be others... and it was a starting point for further investigation rather than a final word.

he said that my mother placed a lot of demands on me that i was unable to meet. and he felt (very gently) that i had placed a lot of demands on him and / or that he had gone beyond what he would usually do to accommodate me. like... arranging a sliding scale, having email contact, having phone contact including phone sessions, even moving the furniture around to help me feel more comfortable. and he realized... that it wasn't that he was trying to do behavior modification with his not having a phone session with me... it was more that he felt that was more than he could meet.

he said something about how he really WASN'T saying that he had been abused (by me in this situation, i guess). and he did acknowledge that I didn't ASK him to do some of the stuff (like his moving the furniture). but i guess the thought is that he was FEELING a little abused, like he was going out of his way to be accommodating and that the more he did that the more he felt like he needed to do...

i had never really thought of this. i guess i understand about projective identification rationally and i've read a couple case studies illustrating it... but examples in the literature always seem so blatant and obvious whereas this seems much more subtle... but maybe that is just because things seem blatant and obvious when they are going on with OTHER people. whereas it is much harder to make sense of oneself...

i... i wasn't sure what to make of it really. i guess i have an interpretation but it is quite different. at least... it seemed so initially. i was thinking it was about my being scared of feeling abandoned. but then i thought... sometimes needs conflict. such that a persons needs can't be met. story of my life... and maybe it does tie in with this after all...

my mother did make demands that i couldn't meet. but in a sense the demands were legitimate - in the sense that she had legitimate needs that really did need to be met. only... i couldn't meet them. i tried... but i couldn't. helpless. i just wanted to curl up and die really. and i do feel like in a sense there really is nothing he can do to help me. i have needs that no person possibly could meet. he can't partly because of the limitations of his role (as dinah was saying before) but i also think that i have needs that really no human could meet. and i feel helpless once more. helpless to meet the demands of others (such as his 'demand' that i attend a session when i was sick). helpless that he can't meet my 'demand' (that he do a phone session with me). and of course he feels helpless to meet the 'demand' too, and helpless that he has the 'demands' he has.

and... is this the 'depressive position' that is meant to be a partial resolution? i think it IS what i defend against... that feeling that has me curled up into a little ball just willing myself out of existence. that feeling... there isn't anything that can be done. and it seems to me that... that is what it is to be alive. was like that for my father. was like that for my mother. was like that for me. and now... it is like that for my therapist too. not that i'm 'contaminating' exactly... but i don't see how there is anything to be done. and i feel numb and depressed and helpless... and i'm pretty sure that (when it comes to me) he does too.

what is to be done?

i don't understand.

((((((((((((kim)))))))))))))

I dunno i hope things will work out! kiya

Id say now its been made consious you both now will through throu it and bring a different resolution. I'd say this is a great session, though painful, but after a while you will begin to feel free of the heavyness.

((((((((((((((((((((((( kim ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I would guess what must be done is to go to your next session, and the next one, and the next one, and keep talking about this, and work through it. Sometimes the most painful things are the things that can lead us to the most growth and healing.

I can relate to the feeling of "I have needs that can never be met". I've said that to my T many times. But we just press on and trust the process. I don't know what the outcome will be....will the needs be met? Will they just go away? Will I come to some sort of acceptance that they can't be met? Will the needs change? Only time will tell.

It sounds like your T is committed to working through this with you. Hang in there.

it is hard. i'm off... i was hoping to go on the 20th but looks like my visa will require me to wait until the 1st of August. So we only have... a few weeks. and he is off this week for the school holidays. so... near the end of our time together. not sure what will happen if / when i come back. i know that i'm leaving. he isn't leaving me. i'm leaving him. but it doesn't really feel any different. thats why i have had the urge to withdraw / not go back. because... things are ending anyway.

i don't really understand the object relations stuff very well. i get it a bit... but not a great deal. i was trying to read up on projective identification a bit. to try and help me understand what my t was saying... but i'm not really sure i get it...

i guess i do have this stuff that i try and avoid. the stuff that gets me in a MDE sometimes... its a kind of hopelessness... needs don't get met. life is painful. etc etc. i read some stuff about grieving... and stuff... but i'm not sure i really understand. i get that things aren't like this for everyone... but i'm not sure what i'm supposed to do to lessen the pain.

i've realized that i don't really go numb. i just... hurt. and the hurt is a dragging numbness. but it is hurt really. feels really painful. and it is a feeling i try and regulate / lessen. and i'm not sure that it is dissociation or that i'm dissociating from it exactly. i don't know.

but i do think... that maybe i have been trying to induce that feeling in him somewhat.

maybe... to see if he can handle it. if he can cope with it... then maybe there is hope for me too. maybe he can show me how to make it better. i don't know... i read something about the 'depressive position' being a partial resolution insofar as it constitutes progress from the schizoid position (one where there is splitting). but i dunno. i don't see this as progress, i guess. falling apart inside doesn't really feel like progress to me.

(((( kim ))))

This must be so difficult (not a strong enough word!) for you.

You've talked a while about this time coming when you would be leaving and how that would work. Are you and T still talking about trying to remain in contact while your away?

Kim, will you see your t again before you leave? At least you're talking about the problems, makes for better closure if that's what's going to happen while you're away.
I have no great advice, but I'm sorry you're feeling so poorly.

Ugh, that sounds like a very hard session.

I guess I have some mixed feelings about needs. I think that maybe we all have needs that no human being can meet. That's why we have lots of human beings in our lives. I suspect we all have deep wells of need inside. And that we can get some met one place, and some met another place, and hopefully eventually we can get enough of them met to bring the need to a manageable level.

But then there are the specific needs we have from specific people. And sometimes they just can't meet them either. Or don't want to. Or have their own needs that might clash with ours. My therapist complains in some irritation sometimes that I need guarantees from him, and he just can't give me guarantees. He says I want certainty, when there is no certainty. He's right, of course. It's possible that other therapists could give me a bit more certainty than he can, but likely none could fill my bottomless need for certainty. So we compromise. I recognize that he can't give me the certainty I need. And he recognizes that I need him to give me as much certainty as he can.

It isn't bad to need. It isn't bad to ask. Sometimes the answer is no. But that doesn't make you bad for asking, or for needing. It doesn't make your therapist bad for not being able to say yes. There's nothing for you to be ashamed of.

It does hurt though. Ouch. I can remember lots of hurts myself.

In the end, can he meet enough of your needs to make your relationship worthwhile to you?

I did email him a couple things... wasn't sure if i should have or not... but i did...

one thing was that i said that i think we needed to talk again about email / phone contact. because... well... he clearly feels that i've been placing demands on him that he can't meet. and the sticking point became my request to have a phone session with him. and so... i think we need to revisit the whole email / phone contact thing... see what the boundaries are.

it is hard... i accept that he FEELS like i've been placing demands on him that he can't meet. from my perspective... i don't think i have placed `demands' on him at all. i've been wracking my brain / heart over that, and i don't think i've been `demanding'. of course... i might be wrong... i have made some requests. those requests have been hard for me precisely because i don't want to come across as `demanding'. so i've simply `requested' (in a fairly quiet voice all poised for him to say `no'). with respect to the phone thing... and with respect to the email thing...

i think the thing is... that the more hesitantly i ask... perhaps... the more he sees it as a `demand'. i mean... that if i `demanded' in a more traditional sense (of really being forceful in the way i ask and / or saying `if you don't do this then i'll be devastated and / or hurt myself) then it would (perhaps?) be that much easier for him to see me as being unfairly demanding and thus easier for him to say `no'. whereas... when i ask all poised for him to deny me... when i'm poised to feel dejected and bad for asking... maybe that feels more like a sort of `insidious' or `manipulative' demand for him. one that he can't possibly deny... maybe i'm over-thinking it... i just don't see how i have been `demanding' in any traditional sense so i'm needing to do the mental gymnastics to see how i may have been...

i never asked him to move the furniture to help me feel more comfortable. that was his suggestion. i... wasn't that comfortable about him doing it truth be told... but he offered. and he did it. and... it did help me feel better (maybe that he did do that but also because it felt like we were 'together' rather than his 'facing / confronting' me). but i certainly didn't demand (or even request) that he move the furniture. did i demand that he DO SOMETHING to help me feel better? perhaps... but that was along the lines of BACK OFF AND STOP PUSHING SO HARD. so... i don't know.

i guess... from what he said... the counter-transference seemed to be that he felt i placed demands on him that he could not meet. that he felt... helpless to meet. and then felt frustrated / angry / inadequate in virtue of not being able to meet them. that was how he felt. in response to me. and i guess that what is left for me to do is to figure out my contribution / role in that. while realizing that part of it might be his %#@&#!.

i guess it is testament to how much he wants to help me. that he feels inadequate to do a hell of a lot with respect to that. i guess... i often feel inadequate in the face of my needs (in the sense that i don't see what i can do to help me meet them). and i guess... he does too. maybe the thing for me is (kinda like Kiya had a thing)... maybe the thing for me is... that i feel like i have needs that i'm bad to have. needs that simply are too demanding. and i don't see how on earth they can be met. and i feel bad for having them because if someone knows i have them then they only will feel inadequate in response because they are too great to be met. and so inadequacy... and grieving the inadequacy. maybe that is all that there is to be done. and maybe... i was attempting to induce that feeling in him. and... maybe some rage? i felt pretty angry at him for not giving me a phone session... i guess i do feel pretty angry / frustrated that i have these needs that can't be met. and i guess anger / frustration comes through as well as despair / withdrawal / hopelessness.

and maybe anger is the way forward. i read that the opposite of depression isn't happiness. it is VITALITY. anger / frustration is a vital emotion. it is assertive. it asserts ones existence. maybe that is the thing. i don't understand the depressive position, i've realized. i don't understand how it is a step forward towards resolution. to my mind... it is what everything is arranged around defending against. defending against coming to grips with the hopelessness... seeing that there really is nothing that can be done... realizing that death is the only way out. thats what i'm dealing with anyway... maybe that isn't the depressive position after all. maybe others can handle it better than me so they can grieve for it and yet move forwards at the same time. i can't seem to do this... though... something is needed for that forward movement. something assertive of existence... maybe anger / frustration is precisely that. something VITAL even if unpleasant.

if anyone finds anything at all on `where to' from the depressive position then could ya let me know?

why can't i take comfort / solace in the fact that he is trying to help me? that he feels depressed / hurt / angry that he can't? that he cares about me THAT MUCH that i'm able to affect him so? why isn't that comforting in itself? to know that a person cares THAT MUCH to want to make things all better for me if only they could? i guess... i do take comfort in that... but... i feel like what is so hard for me is LIFE. that LIVING IS TO SUFFER. that to be alive is to have needs where to have those needs frustrated / not met is... unconsolable. that it just makes the position even worse that he can't console me that he can't do anything... that that is the nature of the position. that other people caring doesn't matter. doesn't really help.

and that is awful isn't it? why can't i take some comfort in the fact that he cares? BECAUSE HE IS LEAVING ME AND I'LL BE ALL ALONE AGAIN. and doens't matter how much he is there for me now (only makes it harder cause the contrast will be greater). the more he tries to help the more i'm going to be losing. why can't i just take comfort in what he is offering me now and have some faith / trust in the world that other people will step up to the plate in future when he isn't there? because i've been dropped (and left there not picked up by anyone) for so much of my life. and... i don't know what is to be done. i wish... he was a little kid and i could console him in the way that kids simply can be consoled and happy in the moment. in the moment... i'm losing the moment... back to the seven years of the torture of being dropped...

i'm sorry t... i love you... but to love is to hurt. and i wish i was numb. don't think i was ever numb in session actually... the heavy wasn't numb... it was HURT. HURT. I hurt so much. the more you care about me the more i hurt. because the more it becomes apparent that i haven't had that much caring in my life. and... those times haunt me. all tied up in present times too. and nobody can care about me in the moment right now... maybe 'cause... it will destroy those past aspects of me? maybe... i'm terrified of that. i can't leave them. everybody else did. everybody else left them. what got me through was saying to myself over and over and over every night I WILL NEVER FORGET. I WILL NEVER FORGET THIS. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER. maybe because... being present with caring in the moment... is to abandon those past pains of myself. and... i can't let them be alone. i promised. i can't do it. if i do it now... they never will have survived back then. and this... doesn't make any sense.

and maybe the 'i can't go on... i must go on... i'll go on...' maybe how that is realized... is with the rage. 'cause rage is the only vitality i know. at the mo all my hatred is invested in bob. maybe i need to take some of that back and hate my t... only... i don't want to hurt / kill him. i don't... i don't... but if i hurt him then maybe he'll feel angry with me. and then... in the face of the realities of life where we won't see each other anymore... maybe then... in the face of that... we will go on. relatively unaffected by each others absence. maybe thats it.

and i think kohut thought that something like this was bedrock. that everything else... was arranged around defending from this feeling of aloneness and isolation and fragmentation and painful disorganization. i thought this was supposed to be bedrock and that everything else was arranged around defending against that.

but then surely the depressive position isn't about facing up to that? i'm not sure how much kohut thought a person should face up to it / feel it... maybe... i'm not sure... making stuff up here... the thought was to have more adaptive / healthier defenses against it... but that it always did need to be defended against... because otherwise... how are you supposed to go on?

maybe it is the same thing or maybe it is not. maybe facing up to what you are structured around defending is to help you see what the defensive structures are... the defensive moves you employ... and maybe then you can assess their adequacy... and maybe then you are placed to learn different defensive moves... different ones that really do help. so... if someone saying nice building up and nurturing things to you helps... then it is about defending against the feeling by doing something that makes it more rather than less likely that a person will respond to you in that way. someone tries to help you... reinforce that rather than demean it... because if you don't reinforce it then you won't get more of it...

why do i feel like i have to be alone and unconsolable in order to be true to myself? that that is facing up to things... that not feeling that feeling is deceiving myself... is not being true to myself... is abandoning the hurt parts of myself? why... i don't understand. maybe its 'cause i'm supposed to learn to console myself. internalize how others console me and apply that to myself. internalization... feels like cheating somehow... leaning on the railing when you need a crutch. i'm not sure... he did feel it i think. he does feel it i think. why do i feel like i need to convince him that thats how bad things really were / are? there can't be a solution... there can't be a solution. why can't there be a solution? why is there being a solution NOW being untrue to the PAST? this doens't make sense. maybe some parts... this is the only being they know. this feeling... without this feeling... there isn't anything more to them than that. either they exist or they don't. why do i care about them so much? they just want to die. why can't i... just let them. just let them go.

there were times when my mother needed consoling and i wouldn't. there were times when i knew what was needed to help her in the moment and i was withholding. i was frustrated / angry that she never seemed to do that for me. so we would fight. it would start with something like `get your damned mess out of the lounge'. and instead of being deferential and obedient and placating i'd do it in a spirit of defiance and silence and i'd take myself off to my room and remove myself from her presence for the rest of the night. and i'd be there in my room hurting and feeling alone. and she'd be there in her room hurting and feeling alone. and the only sort of bonding i experienced was that we were in our own unconsoled isolation side by side. and i guess i could have tried going in to see her and consoling her... but i guess i had also learned that it didn't really work. she would get suspicious that i was being nice to her because i wanted something from her... or she would simply find other things to feel upset about. like my forgetting to brush my teeth two weeks before or my needing money for school camp or... there was always something.

and so maybe that traumatic bonding is all i know.

most of my friendships used to be like that. traumatic bonding friendships. and i guess we both needed each other to be dragged down and to stay down in order to feel bonded. our unconsolable depression and our joint efforts towards making suicide pacts were the only source of bond we could enjoy. i don't do that anymore. not as blatently, anyway... but meaningful happy connections do elude me...

Kim,
I'm really sorry that you are feeling so sad, so confused, and hurt. No one deserves to feel that way. These things can bring up all sorts of emotions from our past that we don't want to re-live.

In my opinion, Kim, and I might be wrong--- I don't think your T had any right to say what he said. He made it sound like you are a burden somehow, and it's completely untrue. Your T can't handle himself, it seems, and should have been cognizant of how it would sound, and how you would feel when he said it. His impulsive blurting out that you place demands on him, seems to indicate he has self doubts. His emotion took over the therapeutic value to the relationship.

Don't worry that you are placing a "burden" on your T. His JOB is to maintain a therapeutic relationship, and he violated that, IMO. He should have suggested alternative options to your suggestions/requests (seldom and minor as your requests seemed to be). Instead, he said something he should have KNOWN was going to be hurtful and with no purpose other than his own indulgences.

Ack.... I just feel really bad about what happened with you, and I wish there was something I could say that was more helpful.

Hey. Thanks for responding. I really appreciate it. I'm amazed that someone managed to get as far as they did :-)

I think.. I'm feeling a lot better today. Couple things helped... Got an email from my ex, which was nice, and got an email from my t, too, which was also nice. So... Feeling a bit more connected with people who I care about.

I don't think that he intended to convey that I was a burden. I don't think that he thinks I am... I think that he was really very genuinely trying to come to a non-judgemental / blaming take on this. I think... It was courageous of him to try and figure some of the counter-transference stuff so that we could use it for good. I've seen too many therapists where they were simply unable to face it in a non-judgemental / blaming way. I'm actually quite impressed with how he has dealt with this.

I guess... I hurt him. I didn't really mean to. I mean... I thought something like a short sharp shock might be nice (if he was indeed trying to do the same to me via behavioural intervention). But I didn't think... That my not seeing him anymore would hurt him. I thought... He would be happy to see the back of me truth be told. It is kinda shocking to me that it got to him so much that he sought supervision about it. A great deal.

I think... He is genuinely trying to help me see some patterns that I have in my life. I think he is trying. And today... I guess I think he is helping. Sometimes it does feel like my need is too great... I think the thing is that holding more ambivalence kind of lessens the need. Maybe like how seeing that things would have been hard in a number of respects with my bf makes it so much easier that we broke up. I still care about him, yeah. But I don't know that we would have been happy together.

been thinking about that a lot today, actually. the intense longings... maybe they arise from idealization. maybe those intense longings that can't be met arise from splitting. maybe splitting and idealization isn't a defense from those intense longings, maybe the intense longings are a manifestation of the splitting and idealization.

so... sometimes... the intense longings can feel like a desire to be held or something like that. but... imagine if you were held and you weren't let go. eventually... your need would be satiated and you would want to go off exploring. do something independent. eventually... you would want to assert yourself in some way.

so maybe it is about learning to blend / integrate things better. and doing that will result in the longings lessening... maybe.

just hard to see how sometimes.

KIm,

Have come across some similar, frustrating exchanges with T where he told me that perhaps what I was seeing were his limitations. I interpreted this to mean his humanity, his self, his personhood. But, as presented in the context it was--it felt as though parts of me were rejected. I come up against this now and again and know it's the split out parts that crave more than he can give.

When I think of the disorganized self I think of a pile of molecules and T as a the mad scientist. The molecules will eventually come together in a little bit different configuration as before, but with the same external appearance.

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and so maybe that traumatic bonding is all i know.

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Yeah, me too. T called it complex ptsd. So we have to learn what healthy bonding, with healthy boundaries feels like and then react accordingly?

Hey, just found this article of interest:


Peace

Self Psychology rupture &amp; repair

Hey. thanks for your response. i liked the article. i guess i feel like that might be happening.. we are on good terms again, but i guess things are a little different from how they were before. better? perhaps... maybe we have a bit of a better understanding of each other / where things are at than we did before. i guess it is one of those things... i feel like he took a bit of a risk in looking inwards and talking with me. helps me have the courage to take a similar risk. thinking a bit about my mother... something i don't usually think about at all. thinking (trying to think about but maybe not succeeding very well) in finding some transcendent view of objects / people. The transmuting internalization thing... synthesizing is so hard... trying to temper the longing for closeness with thoughts of how desirable independence can be. and vice versa... so hard...