It just keeps getting worse.

Stupid me decides to follow up the embarrassing erotic transference session with an embarrassing erotic transference email. Well, actually the entire email wasn't about erotic transference, but there was one paragraph in particular that I put in the email because, of course, I just *had* to tell him how I was feeling. Why do I always do that???

For your reading enjoyment, here is what I wrote to T:

''Do you remember when I gave you an article about Erotic Transference? It was about a woman whom the author called Patty. Essentially, her perceived solution to erotic transference was for her therapist to admit that he wanted to sleep with her. And remember yesterday when you asked if I felt rejected? Well, yeah. You can add all of this up yourself. I would rather eat a bowl of centipedes covered with chocolate syrup than talk about this. But, yeah, the rejection is the opposite of that particular admission-- so I just felt like sharing that. I'm wondering how the hell to get past it, besides accepting that the feelings are natural-- like you said, it is natural to want to become closer to someone with whom you share intimacy-- then combine that with the fact that I have never had a platonic relationship with a straight man... and what a %#@&#! disaster. So I guess I'm just wondering if and how it can be worked through.''

So today he left me a phone message, letting me know that he read the email (and also responding to a crazy message I left at 3 AM because I was completely wired and had no plans to go to sleep). He said that he knows it must have been really difficult to write (no %#@&#!), but it seems to put a lot of things in perspective of the different facets of what's going on with me.

Then what's going on with me????

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pinksoil said:
combine that with the fact that I have never had a platonic relationship with a straight man...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">The solution to this is that your T should tell you he is gay.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Sorry, pink, I have no solution. Hard work. Your T is so accepting. He will help you through this.

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sunrise said:
The solution to this is that your T should tell you he is gay.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Sorry, pink, I have no solution. Hard work. Your T is so accepting. He will help you through this.



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Well, that's PART of the solution. Maybe if could be more like.... "Yes, I am gay; however, if I wasn't.... I would definitely want you." Hahahahaha I need help.

well... I asked you before:

>> I have definitely been able to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection. However, T is right-- my natural feeling is to be even CLOSER to someone who I feel that close with-- hence, the sexual feelings. I am also learning how to accept and deal with a medium-- erotic transference may feel strong at times, and not so strong at others-- but I think it will always be there.

> So... If it wasn't there... Then that would mean that you wouldn't get to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection?

> (I'm just trying to figure what it would mean TO YOU if the erotic transference wasn't there which I interpret to mean - if you didn't have thoughts of sleeping with him at times).

And now I guess I'm thinking (as I was suspecting before): That the answer is: No. If you didn't think / feel sexual thoughts about him sometimes then you wouldn't feel such an intense bond with him. Maybe that... If you didn't think / feel sexual thoughts about him sometimes then you wouldn't be special to him / he wouldn't be special to you...

There is a reason why many people think that sexualized transference is a defence: A defence against what? Figuring that out is probably the key towards feeling a deeper sense of intimacy with people who there are NO sexualized feelings for (e.g., women, kids, and guys who you don't feel sexual towards / guys who don't feel sexualized toward you). Maybe even... A deeper sense of intimacy with respect to clients who don't idealize you / sexualize you... Maybe even... Showing them how to have a sense of deep connection and intimacy not cast up within erotic transference...

Perhaps...

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kim_johnson said:
well... I asked you before:

> So... If it wasn't there... Then that would mean that you wouldn't get to experience the closeness, connection, and intimacy, on a level that is deeper and stronger than any sexual connection?

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Perahps I was using my transference as a defense against having to think about the answer to this question, lol.

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And now I guess I'm thinking (as I was suspecting before): That the answer is: No. If you didn't think / feel sexual thoughts about him sometimes then you wouldn't feel such an intense bond with him. Maybe that... If you didn't think / feel sexual thoughts about him sometimes then you wouldn't be special to him / he wouldn't be special to you...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I'm wondering which came first. I honest with I could pick out the exact date that I decided I want to %#@&#! my therapist-- and then find out to what level the emotional bond existed before then.

I am thinking, though, that bonds exist on many different levels. I feel connections on emotional, creative, professional, and intellectual asepcts. I don't know that these wouldn't exist without the sexual component-- it is more like there can't not be a sexual component if these connections are preexisting. T said that it is natural for someone to want sexual closeness when that individuals feels such an intense bond with another.

I do feel a persistent need for him to find me attractive/have sexual thoughts about me-- that if he doesn't, then that is a rejection-- and like you said, I am not special to him.

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There is a reason why many people think that sexualized transference is a defence: A defence against what?

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Yeah, I had been doing some reading from two erotic transference books I have and the debate between ET being a defense and being an authetnic feeling. The argument in the book is that the feeling we have for our therapists are the true sexual and loving feelings that we would hold towards someone outside of therapy-- the things that we would essentially look for in a lover. The author of that book maintains that in our relationships, we fall in love and strive to make ourselves better-- we want to be that "perfect" person for the one that we love-- and we find ourselves doing the same thing in therapy... changing, partly as a result of the love and attachment that we feel towards the therapist.

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pinksoil said:

The author of that book maintains that in our relationships, we fall in love and strive to make ourselves better-- we want to be that "perfect" person for the one that we love-- and we find ourselves doing the same thing in therapy... changing, partly as a result of the love and attachment that we feel towards the therapist.

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I find this quote really interesting. I have definitely made changes in my appearance since starting therapy, and on some level, I know it's because I want T to find me attractive. I don't feel erotic transference towards him - my transference with him is so, so, so parental - but I do sometimes wonder if it's there, and I'm not letting myself acknowledge it?? I feel it pushing at me sometimes, and I just push it away. Our relationship feels so comfortable, and I think I'm afraid he will take away the physical contact that we have if I'm having ET feelings. Plus, there is the inevitable rejection. I know I don't actually want to have sex with him - I already had that experience with a counselor in my past, and I know how that plays out (badly). But I do want him to find me attractive.

Huh. Thinking about it now, he HAS said he finds me attractive, which just made me super angry. And he responded "do you think that it's impossible for someone to find you attractive without wanting to have sex with you?". So, do I feel rejected? Flattered? I have no idea.

I see why I'm avoiding letting myself feel/acknowledge any ET with my T - my mind is reeling just from thinking about it during this post!

Pink - good for you for being able to be so honest with T and with yourself. Only good will come from it, although getting there might feel bad.

I think parental part can also play out in wanting to look attractive for a T. It reminds me of a little girl, spinning around, showing Dad her new dress or something.

Earthmama, my T has also made comments such as, "You look really nice today." I think I shouted at him, lol.

It is interesting that you mentioned the fear of physical contact being taken away if you admit ET to your T. This was a huge issue with me. The first time I ever admitted my feelings for him, I expressed that he was probably terrified of me, and would be gradually moving his chair back until he was sitting against the wall. T's respond was to ask for my hand. I took it and he said, "Do I seem afraid now?" Unfortunately, I still worry that he is scared. I expressed this as recently as Saturday. He assure me he is not afraid of me, but I continue to think that I am going to push him away.

Thanks for sharing how your T reacted to your admission, pink. I am sure, intellectually, that my T would react in much the same way (particularly since we seem to be working with these twin Ts!!!!) - but the fear is still there.

I like your image of the little girl spinning in her dress. Makes a lot of sense.

You want to be wanted.

We're human beings. The deepest part of the core of who we are is a desire to be wanted. As adults, being "wanted" often translates sexually, but stop and think a moment. Can't you recall wanting to feel wanted when you were little?

"Look at my new dress Daddy!" said the little girl who desperately wanted to be seen. . .wanted to be admired. . .wanted to be noticed. . .wanted to be validated. . .wanted to be held.

You fill in the blanks love. You know what it is you wanted.

I am thinking not so much ET as defense but more of as a test. A test of therapists integrity, boundaries etc. When little girls twirl around and dance for daddy in their pretty dresses... A good daddy will love his little girl and make her feel special and good and beautiful w/out violating that trust. She will grow to feel comfortable with her sexual identity as well as her worth outside of that. I don't care what anyone says, the therapist/client relationship can NEVER be an equal relationship. Wouldn't it be the ultimate betrayal for the T to respond in any way to the ET? Do we really want a sexual relationship with T or is it the ultimate test?

> I am thinking, though, that bonds exist on many different levels. I feel connections on emotional, creative, professional, and intellectual asepcts. I don't know that these wouldn't exist without the sexual component-- it is more like there can't not be a sexual component if these connections are preexisting. T said that it is natural for someone to want sexual closeness when that individuals feels such an intense bond with another.... I do feel a persistent need for him to find me attractive/have sexual thoughts about me-- that if he doesn't, then that is a rejection-- and like you said, I am not special to him.

Yeah. I think there can be many different layers / aspects to erotic transference. Wanting to be close, experiencing closeness, wanting to be attractive so someone, wanting them to remain attractive to us is one way erotic transference can manifest... That can be separated out from the sexual / sexualized kind of erotic transference, though. In a way... Sometimes people are resistant about calling the first kind 'erotic'. Something to do with the sexualization of children, I guess. But I surely do get the first kind... And I also have trouble separating it out and distinguishing it from the second kind. And I guess... I was wondering if you did to (and if that manifested in your transference for your therapist and maybe in having some kind of trouble meaningfully relating to people who you don't have that second kind for - such as women and children and men who you are pretty sure you don't feel sexual towards).

I guess that was the distinction I was (and am for myself) trying to get at. So... The thought that there can be a wonderful bond with your therapist in that first sense even if the sexualized feelings come to pass... And if it didn't matter so much if the second kind of feeling came to pass as that wouldn't (at all) threaten the nature of the first kind of feeling... And if the second kind of feeling came to pass that it might even deepen that first kind...

Perhaps...

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kim_johnson said:

I guess that was the distinction I was (and am for myself) trying to get at. So... The thought that there can be a wonderful bond with your therapist in that first sense even if the sexualized feelings come to pass... And if it didn't matter so much if the second kind of feeling came to pass as that wouldn't (at all) threaten the nature of the first kind of feeling... And if the second kind of feeling came to pass that it might even deepen that first kind...

Perhaps...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

When you say "the first kind," are you referring to erotic transference of the parent/child-type that is not sexualized in the I-want-to-%#@&#!-you-way? I just want to make sure that I am clear.

There are so many overlaps of the two, I think. Wanting to be interesting, attractive, wanting to be with the person all of the time, the jealousy of time spent with anyone else other than you.

I'm trying to figure out what it really means to "work through" it. To me, the logical progression would be that the closer I become with him, the more I'd want to %#@&#! him.

Hmm, I have a lot of reading to do tonight.

Yes, that is what I meant by the 'first kind'.

Despite Freud's thing about the oedipus complex... The majority of theorists do not think that kids typically think about / want to have sex with their parents. So there might be an example of the first kind without the second.

Similarly, the majority of theorists do not think that parents typically think about / want to have sex with their kids. Another example again. Or best friends. Or some male friends who I have. Some supervisors etc etc etc.

It seems to me that a very deep sense of the first kind of intimacy can be quite apart from the second. While sexual partners (ideally if not always) kind of travel through the first kind into the second I don't think it is supposed to be the case that the first kind inevitably leads into the second kind or even that the second kind is a demonstration of just *how strong* that first kind is (think parent child relationships in particular, but also friendships or sibling relationships).

Addressing the comment about being afraid of losing physical contact admitting to the ET...

I've only had two hugs, but they were my last. We haven't discussed this but I got mad one session and said 'well of course don't touch the ET patients:...

I'm so done now!

I really liked the way you described that. It helped clarify my thoughts.