Shouldn't one of the therapists have said something?

Tonight in DBT group one of the other group members intimated that like her, I was fat and smelly (she used both of those words!!!). I was so shocked and so hurt and so embarrassed I didn't know what to say. There were 2 therapists in the room at the time the comment was made. I mean, gosh, that's why I'm in therapy - I don't know how to take care of myself. Should I have said something? Shouldn't the person who made the comment have approached me and apologized? I feel humiliated and I'm going to drop out of the group. I'll continue with individual therapy (I think). The group leader is my therapist. Any thoughts on what I should do?

I can't comment on DBT personally. But do speak with the T about this before dropping out, ok? TC.

((((((((((((((((((( internettie ))))))))))))))))))))

I've never done group therapy, so I don't really know what the "protocol" is when something like that happens in group. I do know that if someone said something like that to me, I would feel really hurt and I wouldn't want to go back.

I suppose you could look at it from the point of view that the other group member is obviously a sick person and is taking it out on you - and that what she said has nothing to do with you - it has only to do with her. I think I could get that intellectually, but it's harder in practice.

I do agree with Sky - talk to your T before you drop out of anything.

((((internettie)))) That experience sounds so hard to bear. I think I would have felt similarly to you.

I don't know what the roles of the therapists are in your group, and I am not familiar specifically with DBT. Lately there have been a couple of posts about group therapy here that do not make it sound very therapeutic to me. I'm not sure I really understand it. Is it a bunch of people getting together and letting it all hang out and being insulting and objectionable to each other? And from this people are supposed to learn to develop thick skins ("it's about them, not you")? Or is it a chance for rude people to get their heebie jeebies out of their systems by acting out? Do it in group so they don't do it in real life to the ones they love?

Remember, you don't have to do therapy, you can drop out at any time. That is one of the things it always says very prominently on the informed consent forms we have to sign at the beginning of therapy. You are not stuck in this group. I think talking to your therapist is essential before risking going back to group. Maybe he/she will somehow reframe this for you and convince you to stay in group, but I don't think you should go back until you have let your T know what is going on.

Hi, I think this could be a good learning experience. Is she someone who you would value her opinion? I only take to heart the opinions of those who I respect and who I value their opinions. I also see it as a good chance to work on your self-esteem. This is why the comment hurt didn't it? A person doesn't have to run and hide anymore when they can handle anything that comes at them. This is a great place to be and a place that anyone can achieve.

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internettie said:
Tonight in DBT group one of the other group members intimated that like her, I was fat and smelly (she used both of those words!!!). I was so shocked and so hurt and so embarrassed I didn't know what to say. There were 2 therapists in the room at the time the comment was made. I mean, gosh, that's why I'm in therapy - I don't know how to take care of myself. Should I have said something? Shouldn't the person who made the comment have approached me and apologized? I feel humiliated and I'm going to drop out of the group. I'll continue with individual therapy (I think). The group leader is my therapist. Any thoughts on what I should do?

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Well, that was quite a lovely comment by the other group member. Plus +1 for tact and kindness!!!

First though, really make sure that you didn't misinterpret what was said by the group member in question. Second, I would talk to your therapist about it at your next appointment, and tell him/her exactly how you feel about the situation.

Did anybody in the group and/or the either one of the two therapists have any reaction whatsoever? I don't just mean verbally, but by way of body language or facial expression as well? If they didn't react, it is possible you took it the wrong way.

We can't do anything about other people's opinions except learn about THEM. If she said this to you, about you, then I would look at it and see why she said it. If it's true, I would have said I recognize why she might want someone else "like" her but that you found the comment painful and not something you want to be like! I might have turned the tables on her too and asked her what she was thinking of doing about her situation, was she going to change it at all? You could get in a good conversation with this girl and the group about ways to take better care of yourself?

If what she said was true, I would not drop out of the group because you need people to tell you the truth about what they see; that's the only way we can learn about how others view us! If what she said was not true, it would not have bothered me and I would have been extremely curious as to why she said it.

The therapist isn't always going to be there. If the girl is telling the truth, you need to "address" what she said with her. Definately tell her you felt bad hearing it! But see if you can't turn the situation to your advantage to learn how to take better care of yourself! No one else can do that for you.

I hear your pain!!! I am also in group therapy and have something similiar happen this week. I disclosed on Wednesday that I had a sexual relationship with my former T. Someone in the group said "did you have to pay for it?" Everybody laughed. I was horrified. The group leader immediately told the person that was not acceptable. I too wanted to quit. I forced myself to go to group yesterday and today. I expressed myself in the best way I could and told everyone how invalidated I felt. I am still angry. The people involved didn't think they did anything wrong. The group leaders have indicated this is something that is part of the group therapy process and will need to be worked thru.

I guess I just wanted to say that I know how you feel. I fully support you. But I want to suggest that you go to at least one more group and talk about your feelings. Chances are the person who said the comment might not know they did anything wrong.

Let us know what happens.

I got up during the night and found this email from my therapist and the other therapist who was in the group last night:

"I sensed that you were very hurt by what J said. What she said came out of her own low self-esteem. I thought about having her apologize right during group, then decided that it would be better if the two of you were to talk in private with a therapist (or both therapists) present. M and I had a chance to talk after group, and we wondered if you’re okay. That’s why I’m glad that you emailed me. As for your not saying anything, you must have been shocked (as were M and I). Yes, an apology from J is very appropriate. Remember, J is also in therapy, and tact is not her strong suit. As we write this to you (M has been giving me her input also), part of us wants to call you (even though it’s late in the evening). We want you to know that we were very concerned about what J had said and are hurting for you. Right now we’re here at the office discussing whether J is appropriate for continuing in group. We’d both like to ask you to please not leave group. You’re a wonderful addition to the group and we don’t want to lose you. I’m sorry we don’t have the specifics yet about how J will apologize to you, but we want you to know we hear the pain you’re going through about what J said. We’re both sending you a hug in this email. Please don’t make any decisions yet. Let us help and support you through this."

I sent an email back saying that I would appreciate their help and support to get through this difficult situation.

I haven't been having a great day because of the comment last night. I know I have to use some skill or another to get myself back on track. Right now though I just want to feel bad. It hurt my feelings to be spoken to like that.

I appreciate all of the responses. It's nice to know that some people are so thoughtful and can relate to my pain. ((((((((((hugs))))))))))) to all of you.

Wow! What a caring e-mail from the therapists! It's so good that they knew and understood that you were hurting. They seem to really want to make sure that you can come back to group and feel comfortable.

I know it's still hard, but I hope you can take some comfort in the fact that you know they are on your side. And so are we!!

Wow, that is a great email! It sounds like you have a wonderful team working for you and they are on top of this problem.

My T's email means a lot to me. It's difficult for me to accept such caring though. This is new territory for me. I'm still not sure how this is going to get resolved but I feel more confident that I can deal with it with my T's help.

(((((hugs to everyone)))))

I thought it was important to bring this over from the old forum so I could respond to it. It's from chaotic13:

"Internettie...Let me preface my comments by saying I HAVE NEVER PARTICIPATED IN GROUP THERAPY AND I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING PSYCHOLOGY. My experience comes only from teaching where I use collaborative learning and group work a lot.

My comment first is to Perna.

This group member was very rude. Calling someone fat and smelly, even if it is true is unacceptable. The moderators of the group should have address this in the group, right then and there. IMO This women was not trying to constructive... she was deliberately being hurtful. I agree that sometimes when we are told things that really bother us.. we need to reflect on the reasons they hurt so much... But anyone who says something like this... is just being a *****. This should have been dealt with.

Although the email your T and this other T sent you sounds very sincere, I think they dropped the ball when facilitating this group session. I don't care how shocked or caught off guard they were by this member's comments....they should not have left this women's comments gone unchallenged. I would think therapy groups would have some common decency ground rules that all members must follow. If tact is not one of J strong suit then... that session could have been used as a way to help her realize the need for tact. Those T's should not have just sat there dumbfounded. They should have used this as a teachable moment. It just seems like a good group leader would have just let this situation go without comment or discussion. Maybe I just don't get DBT. This situation could have been flipped to a positive but instead it was swept under the carpet leaving you feeling hurt, J not getting the message that her lack of tack might be why she need therapy, and the other group members wondering if they will be the next person to be preyed on while the rest of the group sits silently in indifference.

Quote:
I thought about having her apologize right during group, then decided that it would better if the two of you were to talk in private with a therapist

I find this statement to be complete ********. She did not act to protect you and is now rationalizing it. Having you and J talk about this issue behind closed doors doesn't benefit the GROUP. IMO

Quote:
..we were very concerned about what J had said and are hurting for you.

MORE BS if you ask me. I'd ask these Ts, if you were so concerned... why did you just sit there and watch me get attacked and bullied?

The Ts running this group should have been deliberating on setting ground rules BEFORE deciding on facilitating a group--not sitting in their office saying, "oh %#@&#! what do we do now."

I would definitely talk with your T about how this situation was handled. And let her know that she should have helped you RIGHT THEN AND THERE and not waited until you emailed them.

I'm sorry maybe my comments are totally out of line. I just think these so called group leaders own you an apology. J may have mental problems but they don't.

Don't wrestle with Spirit. Collaborate with it. (Breathnach)

Edited by chaotic13 (Yesterday (08/31/08) at 09:20 pm)"

chaotic, I think you make a lot of valid points. I've found myself struggling this long holiday weekend with wanting to be grateful that I received a response at all (my low self esteem showing) to being angry that it still is unresolved (and the next group is in 3 days) to being hurt that it was allowed to happen at all. I don't know if I would feel safe in group anymore. If someone else or the same person were to make another comment to me or someone else, what would happen? Would it be breezed over again? It's really messing with my head right now. I feel like I have to fix this for J as well as for me because no one else seems to be responding to the situation. I've gone for 4 days now without an apology and without knowing what is going to happen this next group.

I realize that I'm angry that my therapist was so shocked by the behavior that she didn't know what to do immediately. I know she's only human, but if you're going to lead a group I think you should be ready to deal with the issues that come up in a group setting.

This hits too close to home for me because my family used to call me names related to my weight and it really hurt. There was no one there then either to stand up for me when I couldn't stand up for myself. Like then, I've been depressed since this incident happened. I've been physically sick with stomach problems and headaches. The stress of this is making me ill. And my therapist has made no attempt to contact me to see how I'm doing. I feel abandoned. I know she only has access to email from her office and she is out of town, but she always has her cell phone. Why hasn't she called me? Why should it be me calling her. I didn't make the rude comment and I didn't mess up as group leader addressing the issue.

I'm ranting now. I don't want to keep doing that but I'm upset. I want to email or call my therapist but I really feel like she should be checking in with me.

Anyway, chaotic, I appreciate your response and again, I think you make a lot of good points.

for everyone who has responded to this post.

Internettie, I think you make a lot of really good points--completely understandable. I do not think you should go back to group until this has been resolved. You need to meet with your T alone, or have a meeting with the T and J, or whatever the solution will be. There is too much vulnerability to going back to group before this has been sorted out. Please do not feel obligated to go. You can skip a group session, get this resolved, then decide whether you will go back or not. Although it's no excuse, maybe it's harder for your T to respond right now because it is a holiday weekend (if you are in the U.S.).

Good point, the T does seem ill prepared. I wonder if this is her first DBT group? I have not been in group therapy before, but I have certainly worked many times in groups with complicated structures and stakeholders with different perspectives. One of the things we do at the beginning of the groups is called "norm setting." The group members decide on what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior for the group and come up with a list. Then as the group proceeds, and the norms are not being followed, the group can monitor itself be returning to the norms. "We agreed that insulting comments would not be allowed and that is not happening here. Let's get back on track. No more of that." That way the group can help police itself. (That in no way excuses your therapist from not having a role too.) I guess I just find it surprising a group therapy group would not also do its own version of norm-setting. Without norms, it seems groups with members in need of DBT could deteriorate into free-for-alls where anything goes.

I think also the therapist needs to take a good look at people before inviting them to join a group. A person needs to be ready for group therapy, able to function at a minimum level with others, in order to be included. Perhaps J has not reached that level yet and needs more individual therapy before she should be allowed to join a group.

I agree. All group members deserve to know that abusive comments will not be tolerated and how the Group Leaders will prevent or handle these situation when they arise.

I totally agree with Sunrise here. Anytime your have a group of people trying to work together there is going to be a least SOME members who do not click well. I would think this would be even more likely with a mental health group. The organizers should not have been SHOCKED by her comments.

I agree again. Maybe since your Group Leaders did not think of this themselves maybe you could recommend that the group do this at the next meeting. This activity would get all members involved in creating a group environment that they could all feel safe in too. Since all members are involved in creating and discussing the ground rules, they may also feel more empowered to protect each other from hurtful comments and insure that the rules are followed.

I think what bothered me most about your post was that NO ONE ELSE STEPPED UP TO CHALLENGE the negative statements. Not even the Ts. I'm sorry if my comments might have seem blunt, but I know if I were in that group and witness what happened to you I would have stood up condemned the others for not sticking up for you ... and left. WHY... because... that night the person slammed might have been YOU, but sooner or later when I was vulnerable it would end up being ME. I get slammed enough outside of therapy... I sure as hell don't need it IN therapy.

Internettie You deserve a better group environment. The leaders of this group don't seem to be leading too well. You are in a good position to push for reform and attempt to encourage other members to create an environment that is safe, accepting, and helpful to all members. If you don't think you are up for leading this charge, then I would tell the Group Leaders that the environment they created is not something you are interested in being a part of. Maybe the group needs to lose a few good members like you to realize that things need to change.

Internettie,

I'm sure sorry to hear about what happened in your group. I think that's just awful, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I was surprised by part of your therapist's email though:

I'm in group therapy myself, and that sounds really counter to what group therapy is about. At least in the group that I'm in, members aren't allowed to interact outside group unless they then report to the group what went on. That just isn't group if two members are being isolated to interact with each other. I was also surprised at the phrase "I thought about having her apologize" -- although I totally agree that she should apologize, therapists don't typically try to make people do something. They ask questions that lead the person to think about their interactions and how they affect others, etc. But they should definitely have reacted when she said that, asked her questions about what she meant, how she thought you might be reacting to her statement, etc. It just doesn't sound to me like that therapist is very prepared to lead a group.

I like the preparations you've done on how to have an exchange about that if you decide to go back. I certainly wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to be there any more. And if you go back, tell them you need a safer environment where people won't say cruel things to you! People are supposed to be real in group, but it still needs to be kept safe.

I'm sorry you went through that.

Sidony

I typed out a response and lost it all. Drat! Here goes again...

The group leader is also my individual therapist. I see her tomorrow at 3pm for individual therapy. I'm sure this is what we will be discussing.

People in this group do have contact outside of group. I remember reading somewhere online that with DBT groups, having contact with other group members was not allowed. So I was kind of surprised to realize they weren't following that guideline. I'll have to look for that info again.

Thanks for the encouragement for the practice I've been doing. I guess the next thing I need to do is write out questions for therapist.

I hate the thought of losing her as my therapist and having to look for another one, but I'll do what is best for me overall. I appreciate the responses.

(((Internettie)))

Reading this thread it is so cool to see your confidence in yourself growing!!!

I'm proud of you, and support you in taking whatever steps you need.

I'm sorry that it has been so painful, but you are doing such a good job processing this difficult experience.

Thanks, SpottedOwl. I'm doing my best to make this an opportunity for learning and not an excuse to indulge in problem behaviors. back to you.

Excellent attitude! Who knows fate might have put you in this situation because you are just the right person to help this group become stronger and safer for everyone.

If you hate the thought of losing your T over this issue, then keep communicating with your T and see if you both can work though this issue. I think learning how to repair ruptures and not run from them has been one of the best lessons I've learned so far in therapy.

(((internettie))) good luck tomorrow. I hope your therapy appointment goes well tomorrow.

Internettie, maybe this T is a fine individual therapist. Even if you quit the group, you could still keep going to see her individually.

Ouch.... again I think that this is a good opportunity to heal this wound so that you are not vulnerable to it in the future.

I always thought that one of the group's purposes was to get these types of things out in the open (replaying our family dysfunctions) so that they can be dealt with for everyone's benefit. This was the problem I guess. It wasn't dealt with immediately and out in the open. If it would have been dealt with immediately everyone could have learned from it.

Sorry that you had to suffer all week about this Internettie. You did do good work, however, in sending out that email (recognizing your needs and speaking out about them!), and by reaching out for support here.

When I got home from work this morning I had an email from my therapist. She said that they (she and the other therapist) would help me get through this and that it was not my fault at all. She said that it was an inappropriate hurtful comment.

I get to go talk to my therapist in just 2 hours. I'm so anxious. I want to get this out of the way. I did feel better today though. Work helped distract me and I played some classical music while I sat at work to soothe me. It helped. I'm wondering what direction this will take today. I keep wondering if they'll have the person who made the comment there today so we can talk about this. I'm not sure I'd be too keen on that. I really think this needs to be discussed in group. I'll let you know how it goes.

((((chaotic13))))
((((sunrise))))
((((Sannah))))

((internettie)) I just wanted to wish you well today. I hope you are able to work through this in a way that makes you feel supported and allows you to return to group therapy and feel safe. If that is what you want to do.