[sunrise]

My legal meeting yesterday went quite well. There were some rough spots, but we made it through. T was there and tried to get the meeting off to a good start. I was quite reluctant to engage with him at first and looked at him little. When I finally did look at him fully--this is going to sound strange--I noticed he had this rather large, painful-looking cold sore on his lip and I immediately thought, "hey, he's not always perfect, and not always pretty." You know, kind of like, "he's my T, warts and all." (Sorry if TMI!)

In the evening I went to therapy. What a treat! It felt like ages but it had only been 15 days. I am feeling a little like a failure right now, having to write here that no, I did not talk to T about how disappointed/annoyed I was that he didn't answer my email last week. When I went into his office and he asked how I was, I responded immediately, "good!" I knew in that instant that I was, even though I really hadn't known that before he asked. I just went with the here and now, and in the here and now, I was not angry and not hurt, but just fine.

I loved our therapy session. It was us at our best, with give and take and flow. And some intellectual exchange too. I have never laughed so much or so hard in session. We laughed together. Loudly. It was wonderful. And just what I needed. I almost feel guilty having such a good time in therapy. I love how we can be so direct and honest and I don't have to hide my feelings. He can read them so well. I love how he told me "you're so cute" not once, but 3 times. (He is sometimes charmed by my reactions. ) At one point, he had to get out his laptop, which I do not like. I find it hard to do therapy when his attention is split between his computer and me. The machine on his lap forms a barrier. I've told him this before--apparently his wife feels the same way. Anyway, while he was working on his laptop (on correspondence related to me), he tried to move the conversation to something new, and I told him, "I'm going to wait until you're finished." He really respected that, said "good idea," and focused on finishing up. I felt really proud of myself that I could tell him that very directly, instead of sitting there being dissatisfied or becoming annoyed. I've come a long way.

We talked a little about one of my pet ideas for a project, and he really likes it. He urged me to do it. I am hoping we will move into some sort of professional collaboration eventually, but I'm not sure....

I look back on this session, and I do not see any sign of depression or dysfunction. I left feeling very energized and in such a good mood.
A significant moment came when I was reflecting out loud about how my H and I were getting along really well. In our legal meetings, it is not him I get upset with. It is with the other team members that I get upset, annoyed, frustrated, or even angry. This happens A LOT. My problems with the financial guy date back a year. More recently, it has been my H's lawyer. I was thinking out loud about why I would get so mad at the team, but rarely at my H, and I told my T, "it feels safe to get upset at the team." Amen. That explains a lot. My T loved the insight. Knowing this makes me feel better about my behavior, and I thank the team tremendously for putting up with such a volatile, reactive client who butts heads with them regularly yet gets on famously with her H. This is one thing I hope my T passes on to the rest of the team.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Sunny)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm so glad you had a good session, and left feeling connected. T and I have sessions when we laugh a lot, and they feel so good. You needed that

Can I challenge you a bit? I am asking this with absolute care and respect. You said that "it feels safe to be upset at the team", but not your H. I am wondering if you don't feel safe being upset with T? That maybe somewhere in the transference you are replaying a behavior left over from your marriage? I know you weren't upset with T in the here and now, but you had some very strong feelings this week...your feelings were hurt by T's behavior...but you never let on to him how you felt. I could be totally, completely off base, and feel free to tell me to just shut my trap!!

I AM so glad that you had a good session. You had a rough couple of weeks and totally deserved some relief. You and your T have a great connection, and it's always nice to read about your sessions.

[darkrunner]

Originally Posted by sunrise

I am feeling a little like a failure right now, having to write here that no, I did not talk to T about how disappointed/annoyed I was that he didn't answer my email last week.

You did not fail, but it is not too late to talk to him about it.
Earthmama's insight is an interesting one in regards to this.

Originally Posted by sunrise

he tried to move the conversation to something new, and I told him, "I'm going to wait until you're finished." He really respected that, said "good idea," and focused on finishing up. I felt really proud of myself that I could tell him that very directly, instead of sitting there being dissatisfied or becoming annoyed. I've come a long way.

Good for you Sunrise!!!!!!!! This would be really hard to do.
I bet it's nice to look back and see how far you've come.
You deserve to feel proud and happy about that.

Sunny, I'm genuinely glad you had a great session... but like Earthmama, I am going to challenge a bit because I know that you are a person who comes to these boards with an open mind, willing to really think about what has been written.

It might help you took look back over your thread about the email. When you look over this, you can get a sense of what you felt like in the here-and-now of that situation. All of the anger and annoyance is right there because you felt that way when you were writing it.

I know that you said that you walked into Ts office and then felt "fine" after he greeted you. I think it is possbile to feel good, fine, and pissed off all at the same time. I know that sometimes going to T is like "coming home," you know what I mean? So there are good, warm, safe feelings there-- but I know (from major personal experience) that anger can exist at the same time.

I know from previous posts (particularly your email post) that you have worred about "losing control" in front of other professionals, but also in front of T. You mentioned that particular thread, how much you hated acting a certain way in your legal meeting.

I always use this rule: if I had strong feelings about something, I am going to bring it up. It is part of the process**

Why the asterisk? Because if I started a thread, and kept it going, about how angry and annoyed I was at something that T did to hurt me, and make me feel abandoned, you can be damn sure he'd be hearing about it!

Something that I have learned in therapy is that hurt and anger still exist even when good feelings return. I used to think these feelings "went away," especially if H and I had a fight, and then, instead of talking about it, we would just wake up the next day and act "normal." I would neglect telling T about these issues in the relationship because H and I woke up "fine" with each other. After talking to T about this, I realized that H and I weren't "fine"-- we were neglected to bring up, and work out, the issue because we didn't want to revisit something that was going to cause even more turbulence-- even if it was something that would eventually strengthen our relationship.

Is there something you are afraid of?

I hope this didn't come across as unsupportive or negative. You and your T are very connected; that is obvious. I was just hoping to share what came to mind, and wondering what your thoughts are.

[sunrise]

No, my friends, don't be afraid to post what leaps out at you from my post. Thank you for your insights. I think you all are very wise.

I do feel safe with T, angry or happy, and I think it is to his credit and also to the credit of the divorce process we are using, and our cadre of professionals, that I have been able to feel safe being upset or angry at them. It's quite amazing, actually, although I know inside it is somewhat dysfunctional of me, since it is very transferential. At least in part, it is anger at my H being misdirected because it is so very unsafe to be angry at him. But you know, I just have to get through this right now, and this is working for me. Maybe we can return to the "no anger at H" thing later in therapy, when this is all over. I have been angry (and expressed it) more times at my T than I have been to my H (H and I were married 20+ years; T and I have known each other only 2 years). It has been very healing to be able to be angry at him and not experience retribution or destruction. There may be more of this ahead.

Originally Posted by earthmama

I know you weren't upset with T in the here and now, but you had some very strong feelings this week...your feelings were hurt by T's behavior...

Yes, I know. All of that was real. As Pinksoil said, I need only return to my thread and read what I wrote there. (Thank you, PC, for bearing witness!) When I walked into the legal meeting, I tried to hold a grudge against T about it (hold onto my anger) as well as my anger at my H's lawyer, but that didn't work. We were all talking about Obama's win the night before, and sorry to be political, but his victory was very inspiring to me. I was just so proud of the U.S. for electing him. Right after watching his victory speech the night before, on my way to bed, I got that email from my H's lawyer that pissed me off, and seemed to take away the good feelings of the evening. At the legal meeting the next morning, before we got started, everyone was sharing their feelings about the win, and I was almost determined to hold back and not participate, to be closed and guarded and not share in the joy, but then I did. I felt like this is so much more important than my little problems and again, I was not going to repeat the mistake from the night before and let any grudges or too tightly held onto ill will spoil this. I just felt this was bigger than me, and I am glad I didn't sit there holding onto my irritation at such cost to myself. This pre-meeting talk helped draw me into a better frame of mind for the legal work we had to do, which involved reaching a number of key agreements on finances. It's not easy work, and positive affect can help a lot.

As for whether I am still angry at T somewhere inside, you guys might be right. But I do know I can't fake being angry to him when I don't feel it. It would be very hard to pretend something to him I was not feeling, just for the sake of... what? Thoroughness? I do have this feeling that if he were to ignore an email from me again, it would be a huge trigger for me, so that tells me that you probably all are right, and I am not done with this. I have spoken to him about email before, and I know some of it is his disorganization. (He has never deleted a single professional email he has received, and keeps them all in his Inbox. I would become overwhelmed too, if this were my system.) And some of it is his boundaries between professional and personal time, which are very strong. However, you are all so right that I was indeed very pissed off at him, and maybe that will be a discussion for next time. As ktgirl said, "it's not too late to talk to him about it." Maybe I was testing him, but yesterday morning I sent him an email (not a needy one, but an informational one). He responded about 8 hours later.

Originally Posted by pinksoil

I know from previous posts (particularly your email post) that you have worred about "losing control" in front of other professionals, but also in front of T. You mentioned that particular thread, how much you hated acting a certain way in your legal meeting.

Yes, that is very true. Not so much with T anymore--I lose control with him often and am not scared of it--but with the other professionals. It has been a fear of mine since the beginning of the divorce, way way back, before even meeting T. I feel they are "strangers" to me, and I do not like making myself vulnerable to strangers. This fear has been something T and I have worked on, and he knows it is has been a barrier for me in the divorce process. Really, if I had known I would have to let this group of strangers in on so many painful things, I am not sure I would have made this choice. But yet, at the same time, I am glad I did, as it has actually helped me begin to work through this fear. A lot of my fear over "strangers watching my pain" stems from a very specific and traumatic childhood incident, and I have had to work through this in therapy to even be able to come close to sitting there with those professionals through this hugely emotional and painful time. I have had to cancel a meeting or two because I was in too much pain and could not go to the meeting and let them see that. (A huge thanks is due to my H for his patience.) In some of the collaborative divorce literature, the team is referred to as "the family", and I am truly feeling that they have become family. They have seen more of me than most people, and I feel I know them and many of their quirks really well. I know this must sound warped, but I will miss them when this is over. Feeling that way is by itself kind of embarrassing, as you shouldn't bond with the professionals you and your H have employed to carry out your divorce, should you?

Is there something you are afraid of?

Maybe.

Originally Posted by sunrise

But I do know I can't fake being angry to him when I don't feel it. It would be very hard to pretend something to him I was not feeling, just for the sake of... what? Thoroughness? I do have this feeling that if he were to ignore an email from me again, it would be a huge trigger for me, so that tells me that you probably all are right, and I am not done with this.

Sunrise, I had the same thought when I read your email thread, and that you didn't even get to discuss it with your T. I was worried that, if it were me, that next time it happened, probably all those same feelings would come back, even stronger, and that it would be better to deal with it now.

But there is also something to be said for getting through difficult, immediate obligations, and not creating more upset than you can handle. If you needed to not address that now, in order to be able to handle every thing else on your plate, that might have been the best decision for you. You know yourself better than we do

But...just because you didn't bring it up during the last session doesn't mean that you can't/shouldn't in the future. Just because your strong anger/hurt/whatever has passed, doesn't mean it wasn't real at the time and shouldn't still be acknowledged. Often I feel strong things in between session, and just because I've moved on by the time my session rolls around, doesn't mean it's not helpful for us to discuss them. Maybe, when you feel more able to handle it, you could revisit this incident. Not in an accusatory/angry way, if you're not comfortable with it, but explaining/narrating to your T, that even though you don't still feel that way, this is how you did feel at the time (maybe read from the post or something if you need to be reminded/help him see what you were feeling). Just a thought.

(And for the record, I think it would be helpful for your T to understand that his disorganization around communications does impact other people -- you might be doing him a favor by helping him see that).

Originally Posted by sunrise

But I do know I can't fake being angry to him when I don't feel it. It would be very hard to pretend something to him I was not feeling, just for the sake of... what? Thoroughness?

I don't think you have to BE angry to talk about how you FELT. You could just say, wow, I had a really hard week because you reached out to support me, but when I responded, I never heard from you again and it hurt my feelings. Talking about it might actually bring back the feelings - or it might not, and that's fine.

Ah, therapy! It's always something, huh???

[chaotic13]

Sunrise,
So glad that you made it through both the meeting and your session in one piece. It sounds like you are reflecting on these events and learning a lot from them.

I do have this feeling that if he were to ignore an email from me again, it would be a huge trigger for me, so that tells me that you probably all are right, and I am not done with this.

After reading your posts I think you are likely going to return to this topic. Hopefully you or you and he both can resolve it before he ignores you again. Maybe the email situation is just something that, like his cold sore, you just accept. Your T is really good at caring for you during your sessions and legal meetings, he genuinely wants to be there to support you when you need him; but for whatever reason (ADHD;other priorities;??) he is incapable of being dependable outside of your physical interactions. When situations come up, you get pissed, then see that what he does provided you is worth putting up with this one shortcoming.

I get your comment about, not being able to fake anger when you don't currently feel it. For me I also have trouble describing how I felt about a situation, after I've moved threw it. I also struggle explaining what I did to "move threw" something.

One comment I did have for you is: Do you remember a while back when you posted about having trouble bringing your negative feelings into the therapy room? If I recall correctly, at the time you were describing how just being in the presence of your T, made you feel better. Therapy was like a place of comfort in your chaotic world and when you got there you just wanted to bask in it and not ruin the hour with the negativity of the outside world. I hope I am recalling this discussion correctly...anyway. Do you think your connection with T (his positive energy) just swept the negative stuff away?

Another question I have is about attachment. In your today, you described that when you went into your session and he asked you if you were OK, you realized that you were really OK. Do you think that this is evidence that you've moved from your earlier insecure attachment pattern to a secure attachment in this relationship? I thought the same thing when I read the part about the laptop situation. I'm not sure I totally get the attachment theory stuff so I might be totally off.

I'm just glad that after a difficult week you are entering the weekend with some good feelings about your therapeutic relationship.



Just a side comment, I personally found Pinksoil's comments very insightful.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by notme9

If you needed to not address that now, in order to be able to handle every thing else on your plate, that might have been the best decision for you. You know yourself better than we do

Yes, I do believe we know what is best for ourselves. T's pronouncement in one of our first sessions has always stuck with me and guided me in my therapy journey: "only you know what you need to heal." Sometimes I have to dig deep or look in my dreams to find it, but the knowledge is there, if I can access it. I wouldn't say I needed not to address this issue now, but rather I needed to address other things now.

you could revisit this incident. Not in an accusatory/angry way, if you're not comfortable with it, but explaining/narrating to your T, that even though you don't still feel that way, this is how you did feel at the time

Yes, I see what you mean, and Earthmama said something similar. Talking about being angry vs. actually being angry. Thanks, guys.

I think it would be helpful for your T to understand that his disorganization around communications does impact other people

I do believe he has some sense of this. One time I was talking to him about how I first found him, thirdhand from a lawyer friend of my sister who recommended T after hearing the sad tale of her sister in the miserable marriage, unable to move forward. I said to T, "after my sister gave me your number, I called you, and left a message." He looked at me expectantly. I said "you never called back, and I didn't think anything of it, so I didn't call again." He said, "I never returned your call?" I shook my head, and he looked down and put his head in one hand, shaking his head, like "I can't believe I did this again." So I know he knows he has a phone problem (which is actually way worse than email). He was a little chagrinned and embarrassed at this story, and I must admit, I enjoyed that. He wanted to know why wasn't that the end of the story? I told him my sister kept asking me, "did you call him?" And I said "yes and he didn't call back." She MADE me call him back, and finally I did. This time she told me I must name-drop her T-recommending lawyer friend, because she and T were very good friends/colleagues, and if he heard me use her name, he would call me back. So I told him I tried this name-dropping approach and sure enough, he called back within a day. Then his head went into both hands, lol. He surely was not pleased with this recount of his behavior. But yet from his reaction, I could tell he had heard this before and was not happy with this part of himself. I just thoroughly enjoyed his discomfort! So yeah, I think at least on some level, he knows. He apologized right then and there, very sincerely. "I am so sorry I didn't return your call." Sheeesh, that unreturned call was like almost two years in the past when I told him this story, and I never really cared he didn't call back--I didn't even know him and had no emotional investment. But he really wanted to apologize. That makes me think that if I told him about the recent email incident, which did upset me, I would probably get another apology, and maybe another head in hands moment of confronting his self, warts and all.

The whole email thing is confusing to me too because of the dual roles. A therapy client is the one who needs support. And therapy clients are not given his email address. Phone only for them. But I am also his client in his coach role, and those clients get his email. So maybe I stepped outside of the bounds of MY role by asking him for support in an email. Maybe that's not allowed of coaching clients--they get his email, but not for support. Yet he offered support--I thought--in his email to me. So, yeah, I get confused. There are times I have walked into his office and asked if he is my therapist or coach that day. He sees the roles as rather coincident and seamless, but I don't. He is very interested in that. "I'm the same when I'm your coach," he says, "how am I different?" Some good discussions there. And occasionally he has said, "today I'm just going to be your therapist," and I want to purr and move into his lap.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

Maybe the email situation is just something that, like his cold sore, you just accept. Your T is really good at caring for you during your sessions and legal meetings, he genuinely wants to be there to support you when you need him; but for whatever reason (ADHD;other priorities;??) he is incapable of being dependable outside of your physical interactions. When situations come up, you get pissed, then see that what he does provided you is worth putting up with this one shortcoming.

Yes, I feel this way exactly. Chaotic, thank you for understanding. I'm OK with his cold sore!

Do you remember... you posted about having trouble bringing your negative feelings into the therapy room? If I recall correctly, at the time you were describing how just being in the presence of your T, made you feel better. Therapy was like a place of comfort in your chaotic world and when you got there you just wanted to bask in it and not ruin the hour with the negativity of the outside world. Do you think your connection with T (his positive energy) just swept the negative stuff away?

To some extent, yes, and it is especially hard when I have not seen him for a while. He has a very strong energy, and I can just get swept up in the joy of seeing him. I can't help it, and when I am with him, I don't want to. He is a "force." I felt this the very first time we met and knew instantly that he was the answer I was looking for. (I think he knows this because he said to me early in therapy that my good feelings for him were preventing me from feeling the grief of the loss of a friend/therapist from decades before. I was able to take my grief home, away from T, and feel my sadness and process it.) Despite all of this, there are certainly MANY times I cry and grieve with T, and get angry too, so it's not just a smilefest when we're together. It's just so hard when we've been apart for a long time to resist the joy, and I guess I'm weak. I like having some joy in my life once in a while. I think many of you are stronger than I am.

Another question I have is about attachment.... you described that when you went into your session and he asked you if you were OK, you realized that you were really OK. Do you think that this is evidence that you've moved from your earlier insecure attachment pattern to a secure attachment in this relationship? I thought the same thing when I read the part about the laptop situation.

I have felt securely attached to T for a long time. He referred to it once as my being "deeply partnered" to him. I actually don't think I have an "earlier insecure attachment problem." The problem in my marriage wasn't that I attached to my H insecurely, but that he wouldn't let me attach to him and he didn't know how to attach himself. It's great to know someone like T who knows how to attach and doesn't run if someone moves close. He is a great model for me.

Such great comments from everyone. Lots of insight. PC is the best.

[dalila]

So, yeah, I get confused. There are times I have walked into his office and asked if he is my therapist or coach that day.

This is just the route I would take in addressing the email issue. There was a time that I couldn't tell when it was ok to contact T and when it wasn't and when she was not responding because she felt I could handle it and when she didn't know I needed the contact. We spent a good part of a session on this, and set some ground rules that have really helped us.

Oh does your T have a secretary or office help? Perhaps you could leave a message with them? It might help to have a special code word that you both know he will respond to, like when you 'dropped' the lawyer's name?

I can just get swept up in the joy of seeing him. I can't help it, and when I am with him, I don't want to.

I know just what you mean here, I have had awful days but just hearing my T call to remind me of my next appointment brings a smile to my face.

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Sunny,

I have really struggled also with the choice between staying in the here and now and choosing whether to address some old stuff.

Maybe what you needed was the session you gave yourself. T always says to me, "What do you need right now?" And it sounds like you needed to connect in a deep way to T and so you did. Now, having experienced once again the deep attachment you know is at the basis of your relationship, you can address the hurt you experienced last week.

This reminds me of my son when he was little. I used to travel quite a bit for business and when I came home he would have a hard time reconnecting with me. He would sit away from me and he made me work for the hugs I knew would re-unite us. Then later in the day he could be naughty or misbehave, knowing I was there to love him (or give him a time out-lol)!

Sigh. Therapy is GREAT!!!!!

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by sunrise

It's just so hard when we've been apart for a long time to resist the joy, and I guess I'm weak. I like having some joy in my life once in a while. I think many of you are stronger than I am.

I don't know if I would consider this a weakness. It sounds like to are allowing yourself to take what you need most from the therapy session. Last session was to put other stuff aside for the moment and feel the joy that goes with being deeply connected to someone.

I actually don't think I have an "earlier insecure attachment problem." The problem in my marriage wasn't that I attached to my H insecurely, but that he wouldn't let me attach to him and he didn't know how to attach himself.

Great insight!

[Lemon]

Sunny, it is so great that you had a connected session. It sounds like you and T have connections in so many areas. I do hope that at some point you're able to address the issue of his not getting back to you. It really was causing you a lot of pain last week and seems like it might help you break a pattern of not standing up for yourself (sorry if I'm out of line here, just remembering things you've posted about in the past). Maybe it would help to remember that by bringing it up you're not starting an argument with T, you're exploring your feelings and how his actions effected you.

No matter what you decided to do, it sounds like T was really there for you in the divorce meeting. Yah!

[Simcha]

(((((((((((((((((Sunrise))))))))))))))))))

I only have a quick observation to point out.
It is possible that the reason that your anger doesn't stay with you and that your feelings become so transient (after being very intense) is due to the ADHD, and might not be denial related or something deeper. I've talked about that with my T and read about it.

[sunrise]

Simcha, I really don't think it's denial related, but I'm not sure it is ADHD related either. Maybe it's just who I am and isn't a way to be that needs adjusting--it's just different.

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Maybe what you needed was the session you gave yourself.

Originally Posted by chaotic13

It sounds like to are allowing yourself to take what you need most from the therapy session.

I think we sometimes know instinctively what we need, and it can be good to go with that.

One thing I really liked at the very end of my session was that T went over to sit at his desk and look at his appointment book to schedule me for next time. I too took out my calendar and I got absorbed in looking at the various appointments and obligations I have over the next few weeks. I kind of forgot I was supposed to be looking for a time to see T, lol. And the thing is, he did the same thing! We were both just sitting there at opposite ends of the room, zoning out while we read through our calendars. Finally, he said, "um, we're supposed to be making an appointment for you," and then he scheduled me for next week without even asking. (We are often meeting only every other week now.) That made me feel great!

[chaotic13]

He scheduled me for next week without even asking.

I really like when my T does this without making me ask for it. I've been going every 2-3 weeks. 3 weeks between sessions feels really long but I hate to have to ask for an earlier appointment. I know I should be comfortable doing this by now...I CAN do it when I feel like I need it...but it is really nice when my want is just recognized.