yes here I am again. But these are serious questions. >.>

Ok so from multiple people, primarily other single guys, they've sid time and again to stop letting myself fall into the spell of women that end up flirting and then when I fall, I fall flat on my face as they step out of the way. I know that this is 99% my own fault because. well. EMOTIONS! Being BPD, I suffer from many things that makes it hard to avoid this.. but I need to.

So... they say to stop caring so much about the attention you get and not to let on that I'm really interested. Some guys and one of my friends said that even being "mean" works. well. truth be told, I can't see myself going that far but what of this casual attitude? Is that true? Does that make women more attracted to men? I would never outright treat a lady badly but even just being a bit more relaxed about it is very difficult for me.

Something I realized though. I thought about this and tell me if I'm accurate here. Being interested, and not showing it so passionately or so openly is not necessarily being disingenuine? I always have a battle going on in this area, in that I've always thought that if I wasn't quite such an easy "catch" for them they might take to chasing me more but at the same time I'm at odds with it because I've always felt I would be being deceitful. I have fought for so many years as a submissive type person that goes along with everyone, to find my own way so it's hard for me to go against the natural way I am. Does that make sense?

Anyway I'm just wondering, especially from the ladies, is this more attractive to women, for a guy to just kind of "not care"? That is without being rude or cocky.

Just curious.

Study everything I have ever done...... and do the opposite. Girls will flock to you.

- Signed,
Woman Repelent

[unaluna]

I would say its not about playing a game either way. It depends on what you are looking for. Decide on what you want, then yeah be more aggressive about finding it. Maybe try this on other goals first, then on girls.

A good start would be to drop the idea that all women want the same thing. Do all men want the same thing? No. That's why slowing down when you meet somebody new is important. She is way more complex than what you see on the first few dates.

[Silent Void]

Don't lie. Don't fake it. The right one will come along. You'll figure out who she is.

[livelovelearn1986]

Different girls like different stuff. Different guys want different things.
I think focus on you and simple companionship. then when you are where you need to be God will walk the right woman right into your life.

Don't settle for the one you can live with when there is one you can't live without.


Live Love Learn

[Grey Matter]

Why does it have to be a game? Be yourself and be patient. It will happen.

Originally Posted by Michanne

A good start would be to drop the idea that all women want the same thing. Do all men want the same thing? No. That's why slowing down when you meet somebody new is important. She is way more complex than what you see on the first few dates.

I'm not sure that my original post implied that women all want the same thing. That's a very big jump. There are certain generalizations in societal norms that are common to genders even as we are all unique and there are of course exceptions to the rules.

I do appreciate the complexity of women or I should say people. None are alike, but in certain ways we are all similar too. In one way, males, generally can be and are more visually attracted to women whereas women are emotionally attracted. Again there are exceptions and different levels of this but these are true in my experience. Does that make me sound like I think all males or females are the same? If so, I think that you have missed my point.

Originally Posted by Grey Matter

Why does it have to be a game? Be yourself and be patient. It will happen.

For lack of a better word, it is kind of a behavioral game. "be yourself and it will happen" I understand to an extent what you're saying but I'm not saying I'm going to completely act out of character or be something I'm not. I'm talkign about minor interactional changes that may affect the way I am responded to. I will never be completely aloof of women's attention to me if they give it, that's not me, but a bit of control in this area is what I'm asking if it would be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Silent Void

Don't lie. Don't fake it. The right one will come along. You'll figure out who she is.

As I've said sort of earliler, I'm not talkign about lying, deceiving or misleading. I'm just talking about being less "gung ho" when a girl flirts or shows interest. That isn't misleading. That's being more controlled.

If the right one. I'm not sure I entirely believe in that thought. The right one as in "the one" escapes me because love is a choice we make. I don't think theres any kind of esoteric magic that happens nor some fantastically perfect soul mate out there for me anymore than I think I'm going to go into the woods and find a unicorn.

Originally Posted by Useless Me

Study everything I have ever done...... and do the opposite. Girls will flock to you.

- Signed,
Woman Repelent

STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP DAMMIT! I mean it though, man. I'm sure you're a good dude. don't be so hard on yourself *man hugs*

Originally Posted by hankster

I would say its not about playing a game either way. It depends on what you are looking for. Decide on what you want, then yeah be more aggressive about finding it. Maybe try this on other goals first, then on girls.

On other goals in my life I just go for it and of course as in everything in life it's hit and miss... you just have to try.

I do feel like it's kind of a game in the sense that it's a back and forth thing, people try things, to get your attention, see if it works, both sides try to get the other one to "chase" them or be interested.. and sometimes it's one way other times it works and both end up together but It's not a game in the sense that it's something non-serious but nonetheless I think there is something to this term.

[lightinthesky]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

yes here I am again. But these are serious questions. >.>

Ok so from multiple people, primarily other single guys, they've sid time and again to stop letting myself fall into the spell of women that end up flirting and then when I fall, I fall flat on my face as they step out of the way. I know that this is 99% my own fault because. well. EMOTIONS! Being BPD, I suffer from many things that makes it hard to avoid this.. but I need to.

So... they say to stop caring so much about the attention you get and not to let on that I'm really interested. Some guys and one of my friends said that even being "mean" works. well. truth be told, I can't see myself going that far but what of this casual attitude? Is that true? Does that make women more attracted to men? I would never outright treat a lady badly but even just being a bit more relaxed about it is very difficult for me.

Something I realized though. I thought about this and tell me if I'm accurate here. Being interested, and not showing it so passionately or so openly is not necessarily being disingenuine? I always have a battle going on in this area, in that I've always thought that if I wasn't quite such an easy "catch" for them they might take to chasing me more but at the same time I'm at odds with it because I've always felt I would be being deceitful. I have fought for so many years as a submissive type person that goes along with everyone, to find my own way so it's hard for me to go against the natural way I am. Does that make sense?

Anyway I'm just wondering, especially from the ladies, is this more attractive to women, for a guy to just kind of "not care"? That is without being rude or cocky.

Just curious.

Since I am a woman I feel like I gotta say something

Think you should be who you are, otherwise it just won't be you. But.. I wouldn't like the type of guy who "falls" often because he just wouldn't make me feel unique, sometimes I see guys who try too hard and I don't like it. Ever heard "girls like bad boys" oh well part of it is true but not for every girl and not for too long, but you need to make feel like you are not available there for them 100% .

[lightinthesky]

Every woman, I think, wants to be special, unique,change man's world, once we (well I do) feel like we are "one of the others" (many others) it damages something inside us and talking about only me, would push away, far away.

[danvb]

You say, "Love is a choice we make".

That's very true. But there is so much more going on than just making a meaningless choice. That choice is based on what you're telling youself about the person you are choosing to Love. There is an almost subconscious internal dialog you're having with yourself thats going on inside your own mind that compels the choice you are making.

Well, the same thing is happening inside your mind every time you notice a woman is flirting with you... You begin making choices inside your mind. There are things you tell yourself about the situation... there is that almost subconscious dialog you have with yourself whenever someone flirts... "Hey, she's flirting with me! She's really hot! She likes me... she want's me to flirt back with her... I'll give her a smile to let her know that I know she's flirting..." I don't know, you can be saying any number of such things to yourself... and those thoughts usually happens at the speed of light... almost imperceptible.

Instead of focusing on the outward personna that you want to present, I just wonder if you didn't pay more attention to the things you tell yourself about how you react to the flirtation that you might get a better handle of why you misinterpret and misjudge HOW to react. You react now, but do you know why you're doing what you're doing and exactly what the message is you're sending? Are you really reading the message she's sending correctly?

I think if you just slow things down and give it more introspeciton and meaningful thought beforehand you might be less inclined to, as you said."fall flat on my face".

I dunno. Just a passing thought.

Dan

[kittlies]

Being "mean" is terrible advice.

I used to have terrible social anxiety, but after I got divorced I really wanted to get out of the house, get my mind off things (I had quite a breakdown), have fun, and meet women. I went on a dating website and wrote to people expressing interest in whatever the most interesting thing on their profile was, asked for a date after a few messages, and then acted as polite as I could on the date. I was honest about my divorce and mental health issues, but always said it with a calm smile, and a few hopeful comments implying that I had hope for the future and was taking care of myself. I expressed interest in what they had to say and tried to be good company. A very large percentage of them ended up falling for me, and eventually I found my current fiancé.

I believe that the thing that made so many fall for me, is that I believed that it was important to be true to myself while also ensuring they had a good time, and acted as such. And also, I never rushed anyone or got needy, because at that time I wasn't yet ready to fall in love. The more you need love, the harder it is to find.

There is a book about "players" called "the game." It is the true story of some guys who become professional pick-up artists and teach seminars on picking up women. It ends badly for them, as they did not also invest time learning how to have healthy long term relationships, but it offers a lot of good advice about getting women to fall for you. Just skip the part about "negging" (small put-downs to make a women seek your approval) and substitute the kind of healthy, supportive statements you use on here. I've read some of your posts, and you know how to do that.

I hope that helps. When you really want a relationship, it can be SO HARD to play it cool, but remember, "playing it cool" is not a game, but rather a way of insuring you don't make the woman feel pressured or uncomfortable.

Also: always shower, brush your teeth, and wear deodorant.

Full disclosure: I am a lesbian, not a man. But this has also worked for my straight male friends.

Originally Posted by danvb

You say, "Love is a choice we make".

That's very true. But there is so much more going on than just making a meaningless choice. That choice is based on what you're telling youself about the person you are choosing to Love. There is an almost subconscious internal dialog you're having with yourself thats going on inside your own mind that compels the choice you are making.

Well, the same thing is happening inside your mind every time you notice a woman is flirting with you... You begin making choices inside your mind. There are things you tell yourself about the situation... there is that almost subconscious dialog you have with yourself whenever someone flirts... "Hey, she's flirting with me! She's really hot! She likes me... she want's me to flirt back with her... I'll give her a smile to let her know that I know she's flirting..." I don't know, you can be saying any number of such things to yourself... and those thoughts usually happens at the speed of light... almost imperceptible.

Instead of focusing on the outward personna that you want to present, I just wonder if you didn't pay more attention to the things you tell yourself about how you react to the flirtation that you might get a better handle of why you misinterpret and misjudge HOW to react. You react now, but do you know why you're doing what you're doing and exactly what the message is you're sending? Are you really reading the message she's sending correctly?

I think if you just slow things down and give it more introspeciton and meaningful thought beforehand you might be less inclined to, as you said."fall flat on my face".

I dunno. Just a passing thought.

Dan

Well it's not a simple choice, no.. but I just like to separate attraction and infatuation from real love which is active rather than passive. but I don't necessarily disagree with you.. I think we're on different tracks

Let me elaborate. I don't want to Make it happen tomorrow or in the next five minutes or at all. But here's the problem I have. I ended up more than once with women that didn't end up clicking with me because, well, I've always done nothing. i don't do well with women unless they come to me in the sense they pretty much do everything but actually ask me out. But it always ends badly becuase they simply are not the type that I can stay with because, well... they leave. >.> NOT WHINING. I'm just re-evalutating how I am perceived because I'd rather be more active so that when I AM ready or find that one that I really like, that I won't miss my chance. Which I am sure I have many times already with others... Idk if I'm making sense but I'm not trying to be a different person, I really want to emphasize this. I just mean being more controlled about my emotions... which I think would be a good thing. but I understand and thank you all for your perspectives and honesty. It does help.

[danvb]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

Well it's not a simple choice, no.. but I just like to separate attraction and infatuation from real love which is active rather than passive. but I don't necessarily disagree with you.. I think we're on different tracks

Yes, perhaps we are. Either way, all of those things that you mentioned, attraction, infatuation and love, as well as flirtation, are all choices... I was just saying , take a look at how you make your choices.

Cheers,
Dan

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

I'm not sure that my original post implied that women all want the same thing. That's a very big jump. There are certain generalizations in societal norms that are common to genders even as we are all unique and there are of course exceptions to the rules.

I do appreciate the complexity of women or I should say people. None are alike, but in certain ways we are all similar too. In one way, males, generally can be and are more visually attracted to women whereas women are emotionally attracted. Again there are exceptions and different levels of this but these are true in my experience. Does that make me sound like I think all males or females are the same? If so, I think that you have missed my point.

Anyway I'm just wondering, especially from the ladies, is this more attractive to women, for a guy to just kind of "not care"? That is without being rude or cocky.

You're asking for a formula... How should I behave...before any consideration of who she is.

Every woman, I think, wants to be special, unique,change man's world, once we (well I do) feel like we are "one of the others" (many others) it damages something inside us and talking about only me, would push away, far away.

Anything that starts with "every woman" is not treating them as an individual.

Every woman wants to "Change a mans world"? That is an expectation before you have even started the relationship. If that is truly how you think it isn't going to go very far.

Er... I'll give this a shot?
First, disclosure:
After the initial post I didn't read any of the others.
sorry

I've gotten the impression that if there is any kind of bell curve regarding "typical" expectations, conduct or communication style amongst dating females, I would like fall far to either end.

I might agree with this, depending on the day, how honest I am being with myself or anyone else and how hard Special Snowflake Syndrome happens to be manifesting at that particular moment.

That said...

I've pretty much always been really, sometimes shockingly, honest with people.

It gets mixed results, but usually gets me where I need to be eventually.
But that doesn't mean that I am not very protective of myself.
i can tell someone that I am really attracted to them, drawn to them, even that I might be falling in love with them [a lot of the time I don't know until i turn around and realize "wait I have actually BEEN in love with them for some time"]... but then again, maybe I haven't even been in love yet? [ok let's not open that can of worms....]

But I can also express that I need to have some sense and logic about the whole thing, that I don't agree that like, exverything should be sacrificed for this notion of love.

Just because I get a tingly feeling whenever I talk to someone, it doesn't mean I can trust them implicitly and I make that perfectly clear.

Trust, dependability, communication, understanding [not always the same as communication], enjoyment and tolerance of eachother, ability to support and BE SUPPORTED by one another, knowing how to say what you need and find out what the other person needs...

That all takes time. Lots of it.

So you can throw out there that "WOW YOU KNOCK MY SOCKS OFF" but you can also hold back at the same time and be smart about passion, which may seem impossible.

So, you don't have to be stand offish. At all.
But it's harder to get hurt when you understand that, no matter what the Beatles say, Love is not all you need.

When you start to grow up, it's not.

And having been through a long term relationship that didn't work out already, s4ndm4n2006, you probably know that.

but I'm saying it for everyone who just throws all they have at something because they feel starry eyed, over and over and over.

Then feel heartbroken. over and over and over.

If you have questions, ask.
if you have doubts, give it time.

Don't hide your feelings, but don't let them control your destiny.
That's how you get lost.

From what you say, OP, it seems like you are much smarter than being constantly yanked around by women who are not genuine or who want to hide behind "oh I didn't know you felt that way".

Also... I've pretty much always done the "build intimacy by way of friendship first" thing.
It seems to work out so much better.

RE: girls like bad boys.

Most bad boys are so much less intelligent than they think they are.
Also, they think they can get more by taking advantage of people in a negative way- see? stupid. "bad boys" are mildly entertaining for a time.

The good ones are worth more than gold.
Women who don't understand this probably don't have their priorities in order.

Most of the ones who do, in my experience, know when you are putting on a show as well.

[Grey Matter]

I saw someone say how women want to "change a mans world" or something along those lines. Sound eerily like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope.

I am not male or female. I have a partner who I adore, and I think our bond has grown because we both believe in the same things. Such as "You may change part of my life but I will always be me and you will always be you" and "Don't expect me to be the person you see in romcoms" etc. My partner IS a woman and if I were to say "YOU want me to change your life" without any consideration for her and her feelings simply but assuming since she is a girl she MUST need rescuing by my brilliant personality, she would probably stare at me, and whack me with the nearest object in reach.

And I wouldn't blame her.

What I said earlier to you, OP, was not "wait for love to find you" kind of thing, but an urge to be yourself. WE create these dating/love games. WE can also avoid playing them. I think it takes large amounts of respect for not only yourself but for the women you are interested in to just be honest. Why would all women appreciate someone who doesn't seem to care? Or appreciate being "mean"? You don't just start a relationship in a few moments, but first you are friends and you let it become what it will or, sometimes, what it wont.

If you feel like you need to change even small bits of your personality for what ever reason to suit someone else, I'd put off dating for a while and focus on why you feel it is needed at all. Hell, I met my partner because I corrected a teacher. Which is VERY MUCH me.

Originally Posted by Grey Matter

I saw someone say how women want to "change a mans world" or something along those lines. Sound eerily like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope.

I am not male or female. I have a partner who I adore, and I think our bond has grown because we both believe in the same things. Such as "You may change part of my life but I will always be me and you will always be you" and "Don't expect me to be the person you see in romcoms" etc. My partner IS a woman and if I were to say "YOU want me to change your life" without any consideration for her and her feelings simply but assuming since she is a girl she MUST need rescuing by my brilliant personality, she would probably stare at me, and whack me with the nearest object in reach.

And I wouldn't blame her.

What I said earlier to you, OP, was not "wait for love to find you" kind of thing, but an urge to be yourself. WE create these dating/love games. WE can also avoid playing them. I think it takes large amounts of respect for not only yourself but for the women you are interested in to just be honest. Why would all women appreciate someone who doesn't seem to care? Or appreciate being "mean"? You don't just start a relationship in a few moments, but first you are friends and you let it become what it will or, sometimes, what it wont.

If you feel like you need to change even small bits of your personality for what ever reason to suit someone else, I'd put off dating for a while and focus on why you feel it is needed at all. Hell, I met my partner because I corrected a teacher. Which is VERY MUCH me.

Again I would never think being mean would be a good thing and I couldn't or wouldn't do it as a ploy to get a woman to chase me.. was just saying that some have even said that.. as an extreme example.

When I say not care I should clarify. I can be overly emotional and gung ho about a lot of things and I do think it can scare a girl away.. too much too fast is what i mean. i don't mean to say that I would be rude or anything. Just not to jump to hyperdrive every time. Does that make more sense? Again I am me and first thing i want is a lady that would appreciate who I am now... but my emotional overdrive is not necessarily me, it's a behavioral reaction that could be controlled and that's not a bad thing.

Again I don't want to deceive or be anything I'm not and I don't want a girl to change or try to change me. Been there, done that. Not what I want.

Originally Posted by Michanne

You're asking for a formula... How should I behave...before any consideration of who she is.

You are taking offense to my questions and making it sound as if there is no standard behavior that works and that is not entirely true. As in if I run into a room screaming at women that I want someone to love me obviously you could say safely that 99% of them would leave or laugh. So is that stereotyping? no. There is truth in what I am asking and it is in no way saying that it would be 100%...

If you knew me even slightly you would realize that I am far from the type of guy that would stereotype women or make the assumption that all women act one way or anything like that. Please understand it is very far from what I am saying.

Again, there are standards in everything and exceptions to every rule but everyone is not so wildly different that we can't make "some" generalizations.

Originally Posted by danvb

Yes, perhaps we are. Either way, all of those things that you mentioned, attraction, infatuation and love, as well as flirtation, are all choices... I was just saying , take a look at how you make your choices.

Cheers,
Dan

Attraction and infatuation are emotional responses. Love and flirtation is made by choice but yeah, I understand what you're saying.