Non Speaking Husband

I came across this link about what a child feels when the mother abandons them.

Mother Abandonment & the Effects on the Child | LIVESTRONG.COM

Seeyalater, you can do some more research on the signs a partner is having abandonment issues. I would say that what you have shared here are red flags that your husband does have abandonment issues, and he doesn't understand it himself, but is struggling with his low self esteem, sharing his feelings, and pushed you away before "you" could possibly abandon him.

These challenges "can" show up later than most people think. And this is something your husband really does need help with. Perhaps you can now do some research, find some good articles that he can read, and encourage him to get help so the both of you can work on having a healthy relationship together.

Seeyalater, here is another good link I found too. The symptoms are very much as you have discribed in your husband too.

https://blog.udemy.com/emotional-abandonment/
((Hugs))
OE

Attracting men that have abandonment pasts brings a subconscious attraction to women that are naturally maternal. I see you mentioned daily communications with your own mom, that, too, factors in, in a strange way..
Even to leave this relationship, it'd stand to reason, guess what the next guy will have in their war chest?
It's better to sort it out now, figure out your boundaries, see if he willingly follows your lead.

Thank you so much for this link. I read it and one can read forever on this subject. My husband seems to have a problem separating his emotions along with his anger. I'm going to read up on it more and see how I can help. I do a lot of what it said so just continuing might help. As of now he refuses to go to a therapist.

What a wise post!

Unfortunately it is too familiar and seems easier to keep trying to change unsuitable partners into something they are not rather than exploring our own needs and boundaries.

I am guilty of that myself that is why I refuse to coach Seeya how to fix her partner.

Sure we have to support each other in our desires to be the best we can be but I have hard time advising such young woman to devote her life to fixing unsuitable partners and now even their parents and their parenting skills!

Women do it all way too often. Rather than enjoying life and bettering themselves, they devote their precious lives to fixing others. Life is way too short for that. But to each its own.

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That's what is meant about fixing others...

I think that with men especially, they believe that expressing emotions is a sign of weakness. That is why they tend to express "anger" the most. They are often raised to be "heros" and be strong and be able to just "fix or rescue or achieve", when in reality, they are just human and in being human "do" have emotions they need to better understand instead of "fear or think it is wrong to have emotions".

The thought of seeing a therapist would be something not wanted, after all, they would be required to let down a wall they just can't let down, believe they are simply supposed to "not show" or they are a failure, hense why "man up and suck it up" are so toxic to say to a male child or a young man that is genuinely struggling and so much so that they are "acting out" in strange ways.

Your husband needs to understand that he is "not" a failure at all, the failure has been that of his parents all along. Often even a father will make mistakes with their own sons because that is what they themselves were taught to be, so all they are doing is handing down bad messages and with that dysfunctional ways of dealing with others and relationships and life as well.

Your husband needs help getting under his own hood so to speak so he can see the parts that need to be addressed so his life can run better. He needs to recognize that the "anger" is a warning sign that means, unless he takes some time to fix the noise bothering him under the hood he could experience a breakdown that actually could be "avoided". That he can learn to overcome the lack of knowledge his parents are expressing with him and actually end up a person who actually gains more understanding and knowledge than his parents had/have.

His father is a lousy mechanic that way, and his mother is and has long been clueless, but that doesn't mean life needs to be hopeless, he just has to reach out to individuals that are actually better mechanics that's all. That is the whole reason there actually "are" therapists to begin with.

That is a good way to explain it to him. You need to "empower him" so he realizes that "he" can go to learn from more knowledgeable individuals to where he becomes a more knowledgeable "better" person in spite of the lack in his parents.

No plans on emailing his parents. His mom has stayed out of this issue and so have my parents. I know his dad has given him advice as to do what makes you happy "only". I have an hour drive home from work so at times I call and talk to my mom to pass the time.

Good! It is wise that parents keep out of their grown kids marriages. I am yet to see when parental interference in adult marriages is beneficial.

Nothing wrong talking to your mom at all!



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Ok, Seeyalater, that is fine.

I am going to present another link that you should keep in mind. When you talked about your husbands behaviors at first many posters advised you to leave him. The reason for that is self explanitory in this thread and even I had wondered "if" your husband did have this problem early in your thread.

I have already posted "abandonment" challenges, which is what I feel your husband is dealing with. However, one of the things that can be a challenge is that "some" individuals become narcissists because they have had abandonment take place in their past/childhoods. It can get very confusing, I know. I have been working on this with my therapist myself as my husband has expressed several of the traits and I have an older sister that has also practiced this with me as well.

I think that this list is important for you to have, just to keep in mind if your efforts to "help" your husband somehow fail and he continues to present these unhealthy behavior patterns. Once you read it you will understand some of the reactions early on in your thread. It is also a good link to have as you are really just starting your own career, these individuals are definitely out there, knowing how to identify them is helpful. I wish I had this list when I was your age, it would have spared me some experiences that shocked me and quite frankly hurt me tbh.

Eight Mental Abuse Tactics Narcissists Use on Spouses | The Exhausted Woman

I used to think that helping people see where they had been let down by their parents would help them to forgive themselves for their failings and understand their wounds and become more successful at living their lives. It's a great theory. Seems more than plausible. Then I tried it on my brother. I thought he deserved for someone who was an eyewitness to affirm that his emotional needs had not always been met . . . that there were reasons for his being so "challenged" by life and for him seeming to "struggle" so. It was a great theory. It couldn't hurt . . . I thought. One of my sisters tried to warn me against this effort, saying, "I would leave that kind of delving into his psyche to the professionals."

Well, I gave my brother all this affirmation of what I had witnessed as unfair things he had suffered growing up. I wanted to help him heal and know that I understood a lot of the hurt. Well, the best laid plans of mice and men oft do go astray. I helped my brother to dive deeper into his narrative of being a victim . . . all to no good end whatsoever. He was abusing other people's rights, and I thought that helping him to see where he had been a recipient of some abuse would unlock the mystery of how he got to be the way he was and help him free himself. Didn't work. Really didn't work! It's a great theory, but that doesn't mean it works.

For anyone who is behaving badly, we can usually almost always find a history of some kind of parental incompetence or abuse or neglect or abandonment. Then, you could probably find that those parents had deficits in the way they were reared. The parents were dysfunctional because the grandparents were dysfunctional. You can take it back, generation after generation, to Adam and Eve. It can all be very interesting, in terms of the insights we can gain for how pathology perpetuates itself. This kind of delving can really do wonders in showing us how problems originate. Novelists have always known this, and lots of great novels are based on tracing this kind of inter-generational dysfunction. Enlightening though it may be, it is not necessarily that productive in changing bad behavior in people. If it were, we could flood the prisons with therapists, and get everyone rehabilitated, and end recidivism in the correctional system - in which my brother has been a regular participant.

People who treat other people badly usually do have a sense that they have been treated badly themselves . . . and they usually are correct on that. That is the classic human rational for bad behavior. It can be non-productive to help then explore and dive deep into the realization of just how badly they were treated. I found that to be the case in sharing perspectives with my brother. There is something that does help my brother. He behaves best and is at his happiest when he is in the confines of a setting that actively regulates his behavior. He does well when he is institutionalized. He gets limited options for how he can behave. He gets swift correction for unacceptable behavior. He faces all kinds of constraints, and that does him a world of good. And it doesn't require that any of the staff there know all that much about how he came to have the emotional issues that he has. Staff in these places presume that there are all kinds of reasons for how their detainees got to be the way they got to be. At some stage of the game, that all gets to be somewhat beside the point, and you have to deal with the here and the now.

Seeya, started this thread because her husband is treating her poorly and even trying to violate her rights. If he were secluded in a room deeply depressed, but not misteating her, then I would say that providing him with empathy for his wounds might be a reasonable initial approach to trying to help him cope. Even then that approach is of limited value. Therapists have commiserated with me over all the wounds that life inflicted on me, but there comes a point where me rising up from being depressed is a matter of making the effort to do so. You can get addicted to mourning and bewailing all the hurt that came your way in life.

It was useful to learn that OP's husband was the product of the kind of home that we learned about . . . where mom dumped him with dad and went on to satisfy her own needs. That does resolve a lot of the mystery. It is interesting to know. It's very interesting to know. It can enormously help others to understand him. Will him pondering that help him to change his behavior towards his wife? Maybe and maybe not. Usually, what changes our current behavior is some pressure that makes it harder to continue doing what we are doing. This husband is not so disordered that he needs to be institutionalized. But he does need constraints on his bad behavior toward his wife. And it is largely the wife who will have to provide those constraints. She could call the cops, if he were beating her up. But that's not the nature of the problem. He's not really breaking any laws. But he's violating her right to the consideration that a wife deserves from a husband. Neither his parents, nor her parents, are going to impact that very much, as I think most of us agree.

The OP, in this situation, has to become cognizant of what she her rights are - like the right to not be kicked out of where she lives - and to put up some serious insistence that she does have rights, will not forfeit them, and intends that they be respected. When the OP willingly left her home to go couch surfing, she showed a lack of understanding of what is due her. Sounds like she has overcome that particular deficit in her knowledge about her own rights. I have faith that she will go on learning, as she sounds like a basically healthy minded young woman.

It used to be thought that doctors and psychotherapists could help alcoholics learn why they drank and, thereby, discover the key to gaining sobriety. That never worked too well and the 12 step programs of peer support came into existence. The main message to families was: "Don't enable." I was a big beneficiary of that message myself. My heavy drinking significant other was abandoned by his mother for a couple of years as a small child, and I used to feel so sorry for him over that. It was very interesting for me to learn that, but didn't show me much useful in how to help him in the present. I really believed that, if I just showered him with all the love and commitment that maybe his mom had not shown, that he would recover. There was no way I could foster a better relationship between his mother and him, as she was long dead by the time I met him.

In the end what helped me was this realization: I don't owe it to anyone to be tolerant of mistreatment from them because they had it rough when they were kids. In the end, what helped him was his realization that, if he wanted to have any kind of a life, he had to gird up his loins and - dare I say it - be a man.

Certainly, when he has faced difficulties, like awful health problems, I've never said: "Suck it up and be a man." There are times when everyone deserves to be comforted and offered solace. "To everything there is a season." In a marriage, we have to become good judges of what season we are in. We comfort our partners in sorrow; we exhort them on to greater effort when that is needed, and we admonish them to cease and desist bad behaviors. And we may have to do all three things on any given day.

The tone of this thread has sure evolved enormously. For a while, the OP was being told to "Wake up" and know that her husband was a lost cause . . . a narcissist. Now, having learned of his mother's abandonment and his father's insensitivity, he is this poor wounded bird having been invalidated in the worst way that a male can be invalidated and in need of being helped to mourn and heal the devastating assault on his spirit that he suffered as a vulnerable child. Maybe the answer is neither of these extremes.

I don't see him as the most fragile and vulnerable character walking around. He figures out how to achieve his ends - like finding a wife and having a job and getting that house. Even if his mother were to apologize and wash his feet in her tears, that wouldn't necessarily wake him up to the realization that you can't crap all over your wife and expect to have a decent marriage . . . you can't act like a jerk at work and think people will have any respect for you. Lots of people around him are overcoming their own childhood traumas. His parents probably had theirs.

So that's why I say to the OP: Figure out what are the makings of a well-rounded, satisfying life and pursue that . . . and put the expectation out there that, if he wants to stay in this marriage, the husband has to participate. Come up with plans for things to do on the weekend, as alternatives to him fishing and wife being alone or with girlfriends. Our lives are defined to a large extent by our interactions with others. Sounds like he tends to be a sour puss who complains about others all the time. So wife can role model a better option. People do learn from their spouses, which is one of the great things about good marriages. It has seemed to me that this husband is going to give this wife as hard a time as she will tolerate. It's not her fault that he didn't get enough maternal nurturing as a child. But he wants to be mad at someone, and who you live with makes a handy target.

While other people may cause our unhappiness when we are children, we are largely the cause of our own problems when we are adults. Yes, a lot of the time, it is our fault. This guy is sabotaging himself. He's apt to lose that job and this wife, continuing the way he is doing. Life is not going to give him special dispensations because he got a bad break as a kid. So I would encourage wife to not enable any bad behavior. Do not concede to ridiculous requests like leaving the house, or cooking 7 nights of the week. Do not accept that he has to go fishing to heal from the hurt that she caused him. Do not accept his interpretation of things, which is badly askew of reality. Instead, push back - vigorously - with a healthier alternative . . . like a barbecue that you both host for friends, instead of him going off to sit in a boat alone with his father fishing, telling himself a bunch of garbage about how his wife made him feel worthless, when she did no such thing. For an adult to behave badly toward his wife is not a case of him being "challenged." It's a case of him disregarding her rights as a person in this world. So wife must challenge the husband with her intent to have a decent life and her expectation that he respect her needs and requirements.

Excellent post Rose. Just excellent. I hope Seeya reads it in depth.

Personally I think no matter how mistreated you were by your parents there is no excuse in mistreating one's partner. Kicking her out? Making her sign her rights off? Now not spending time with her? Not communicating?

We can find hundreds of links to hundreds of articles but it doesn't dismiss the fact that he mistreats his wife. Frankly most women would never come back being kicked out. Or simply would never leave the house.

Honestly rather than fixing him and looking up articles about fixing him or asking him for therapy you might want to try to understand yourself. Why is this ok with you? How do you want to be treated? What's important for you? Go to therapy yourself first.

Bottom line focus on your needs right now. Not everything should be about him, you are important.



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There "is" a lot of truth in what Rose is saying, because you "do" need to make sure you do not get on your husband's emotional patsy list. That is all Rose got on when she did try to help her brother. That "can" happen, especially with a narcissist, so look at that link I provided and make sure you see the signs and yes, stand your ground. The big red flag to me was that your husband kicked you out and did not "care" where you went. What concerns me is that your husband doesn't even "care how is actions affect you" either.

I had that situation a little different, when my husband binged he did not "care" about me or that he was out all night. Then he would appologize profusely and declare his love for me and that he would stop. He would behave for a while even months and sure enough, it would happen again. My therapist has described this cycle to me, behaving for a while which is known as the honeymoon period, then being bad again, then behaving for a while again known as the honeymoon period then being bad again. It was like kicking me out too, because when my husband binged, he kicked out being responsible to me and respecting me. I did put my foot down once a friend explained to me what was happening as she was divorcing her husband who was even worse and that it was binge alcoholism. In my case there was no parent abandonment issues, but my husband has two learning disabilities that affected his self esteem and wound him up too. My husband did get sober, I was later told when things were challenged years later that my husband had the maturity level of a 13 year old and not to "mother him" but that he would be constantly pushing my buttons to do so. I was raising a child the same age, it was such a challenge.

I think what you need to look at right now, and you are still so young yet too, is do you want a partner in your life or do you want to have a forever child or a man that takes most of your life to grow up and man up and sometimes they never grow up, hense peter pan syndrome, or one that is in ways and emotional patsy to you. Believe me, you don't need that when you are trying to raise a child someday.

You know that saying "Love is blind", well it's true.

I like the way you explained the problem. He puts his dad above everyone. Then so did I until I seen what his comment was about our relationship to my husband. "Just go fish every weekend". "Do what you want to do". Everyone has had such great input! Men and emotions!! When I have a child(if its a boy) I wont this to happen to my son.

[quote=divine1966;4409602]Good! It is wise that parents keep out of their grown kids marriages. I am yet to see when parental interference in adult marriages is beneficial.

Nothing wrong talking to your mom at all!



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The first day when I left our home. I called his mom and she said hes just so stubborn, give him some time to miss you. That's not the answer I wanted too hear but I thought a couple days later that this would of blown over. Here I am still talking about it. I called her not to get her involved but to see if he mentioned what he was mad about. In the beginning I had to clue what happened.
Because I was so close to his dad I called him to. We spoke for an hour. He said he was my husband was mad at me for the dinner. Again, I thought a couple days and it would blow over. I'm here talking about it. I haven't talked to his dad since February. I do know that he has been fishing with my husband almost every weekend minus the last three (counting the one coming up).
That was the last time I spoke to either of his parents.
Thank god for my moms shoulders. She has listened to me cry, be sad, be happy, and be angry.
Last night I spoke to her and I was so angry. Angry at him. Not one person other than my mom and a couple friends have asked "how are you doing"? Thanks to the people that have asked and the people here on my thread.
It was a day from hell yesterday. School, work, meetings,and I let it all out. Yes, to my husband. When he seen me walk in he said "oh damn" you must be in a bad mood. I'm rarely in a bad mood but I had it. I talked and he listened. He couldn't run because we were at a restaurant. It felt good for him to listen to me for a change.

Hmm, I wonder, Seeya, if dad hasn't maybe been the source of some toxic thinking.

Again, too much time alone with dad may be quite unhealthy. That's why I encourage you to have dad come by for Sunday dinner at your house, or you join them on an occasional fishing trip. How that relationship works could probably stand a little shaking up. You being there with the two of them changes the dynamics. Plus, you get to observe what is being reinforced in that relationship that maybe ought not to be. Not that they are going to say everything in your presence that they might when you aren't there. But you'll get a feel for the flow of things.

So often parents are a real influence for retarding their children from becoming mature. One of the things that most people need to do is to challenge a lot of what their parents inculcated in them that wasn't so worth hanging on to. Sometimes we grow in wisdom and come to appreciate that our parents imparted some real worthwhile values. Usually, however, there is something that we need to tweak . . . or unload completely. It's good for the parent's voice to have to compete with other points of view.

Some people never want their children to grow up so they push for continuous dependency.

Glad your husband listened

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I don't know what's worse - a mother who abandons her child, or one who clings with tentacles wrapped all round. I've seen both. The latter can be especially hard on a marriage.

Way to go, Seeya! Your voice counts too. He darn well better listen.

I came across another link Seeyalater that you should read. It explains how the relationship goes and what a narcissist will actually "train" their partner to do. This is something I have been working on myself as I had been "trained" myself by my older sister who needed a narcissistic feed from me, I did not understand this however and even my husband as he does have narcissistic traits that were intertwined with his alcoholism and lack of maturity. It was always "my fault" and now that I have PTSD, I can get very triggered by reminders of having to give in somehow to keep the peace.
If you can understand this "now", you will hopefully allow yourself to see it developing so you do "walk away". It can do a lot of damage if dealing with it long term. They do not reach out for help either so that can be a red flag you need to pay attention to as well. They say, "I don't need help "you do" even.

Sometimes it can be hard to distinguish whether a person is one, or is the victim of one, so pay attention to the signs. You do "not" want to become a codependent.

Narcissistic Victim Syndrome: What The Heck Is That?

Just curious....did you talk to him about the problems in your marriage or did you just make him listen to what a bad day you had?

Does that mean if you aren't blind to the problems that you don't love the person?....I don't believe that saying for ONE MOMENT.....Love is not blind....Real love sees the big picture & deals with it.

Keep in mind, the 'training' certainly isn't something accomplished consciously. Even in the OP's situation, it's as simple as taking off for days on end 'fishing' because he needs to clear his brain, and coercing the OP to accept this marital abandonment as normal and what a loving wife needs to accept with whatever arguments/excuses/justification he gives. Up there with the need for seven perfect daily dinners as proving her unyielding love for him....'training'. While he's probably off complaining about her, to whomever will listen...that saves his ego if she were to leave or if things end, because she's painted the bad guy from the get go....

You are so right Rose76. His dad was SO good to me the last six years. After this happened I spoke to him once. He was to call me back but never did. His dad also told his girlfriend not to have any contact with me anymore. That really bothers me that he could say that to someone. Everything has been going good until last night. I received a call from him saying he was at his dads watching a game and wouldnt be home because they had cocktails. Today, I received a message saying that he would be home really early today. Im working and havent had time to reply. We seem to go forward then one stop to his dads and we go to an idle. His dads house is on his way home to our house (an hour drive). We'll see how it goes tonight. Were leaving out of town together tomorrow.

Thinking about the link on the 8 signs. The thing about a narcissistic rage, in my experience, compared to a borderline rage, again in my experience, is the level of voice and things said. A borderline will bleeping blow their stack at you...narcissistic is opposite. Word play is insidious. The advice to remain quiet is a good one. Really, really listen to the words. Are they tearing you down in an intellectual manner? How does your husband leave you feeling about yourself after these post silent treatments is my question?

I think and from what I observe that women often think because they love a man they must stick around no matter how poorly they are treated.

You can love a person and still move on with your life when you are mistreated. Love might be blind but it doesn't mean a woman need to let herself be disrespected.



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He is staying at his parents over night? Gee. Really? I don't think I stayed at my parents overnight ever since I left at 18. (Would be different visiting parents out of town) And I am not even married and currently live alone. Heck.

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Seems like he runs to his daddy when things don't go his way. Well, that is who he got left with by his mother too.

It is odd how the OP is now being shunned too. This is definitely "not" healthy, perhaps his father gives him his narcissistic supply?