Unidentifiable Social Problem?

Yeah, yeah, I'm making a lot of threads. But I guess I'm trying to figure out what's going on with me in a variety of issues.

This is a post I made on another forum, on a thread asking if you have an easy time making friends (I don't). I figured I'd repost it since I'm a bit too lazy to explain it in too much detail.

Basically some part of me wants to be social, but my most natural inclination is to push people away. I've been doing it all my life - even as a little kid I followed that "method" for school. I rejected invitations and worked alone voluntarily. People mostly took to ignoring me after that.

I have no idea how to connect to people. I strongly resist any opportunity to talk about myself even if I long for it in my imagination - I've done enough introspecting to suspect it's at least partially shame and fear-based, afraid I'll look or sound ridiculous, or that I'll be criticized or rejected. I mentioned in another thread I've wondered in the past if I have some kind of personality disorder or something.

I don't look down on people. I'm not asocial because everyone's so stupid and shallow and no one wants to engage me on a deep level (I kind of fear someone trying to get deep or intellectual with me - I just know I'd fail miserably). It's more like...well, resource-draining. It's tiring. It feels like people are trying to get inside a place that's simply unsuited and thus needs to be guarded. I don't know why. I've always just been this protective of my inner self, even if sometimes I dream of expressing it somewhere that's not online.

I guess I'm asking...what is this?

Okay, you're not sure. I think, with work, you are in a position to make an aquaintance or two (maybe try the watercooler or coffee thing). And heck, if you don't like it, don't do it anymore.

Have you discussed your situation with a therapist?

I'm in a similar situation. I avoid closeness with people myself and I push people away because of my defensive mechanisms, trust issues, and general desire to live in my head, have fun with my nerdy hobbies by myself, and build my home online resell business. I have a small amount of friends and plenty of people to talk to on the internet to stave off loneliness although part of me wishes I had some kind of love in my life.

While I'm unsure what to suggest because I haven't fully solved my own issues yet, I would say find a more introvert friendly way of meeting people such as finding people with similar interests and hobbies on a site such as meetup.com or finding a local event of some kind with like-minded people.

Other than that bit of advice, the only other thing that I can say is to find a decent therapist if you haven't already and seek to get help and improve yourself.

I, um, kind of don't have any interests, hobbies, or passionate topics. Which bothers me immensely. Emptiness, boredom, and all. Nonetheless, it's kind of hard to find "like-minded people", when there isn't much in your mind except almost obsessive introspection. But that's another topic all together.

I've tried to. I basically got blown off with "Just talk to people more. These things fade with exposure." Or something to that effect. Though I'm looking for a new therapist, hopefully my mother will approve of this one and I won't get pulled out of counseling (I'm on my parents' insurance, so my mom basically has the final say in my treatment. If she doesn't like the person or thinks I'm not making the right kind of progress fast enough, she makes me cancel all further appointments and find a new person. I hear about people who have therapists for years - I've never had one for more than a couple months).

I guess my concern is that...this has been lifelong. It's ingrained in a way I fear - at the risk of sounding dramatic - I'm almost certain that most typical tips for being more social just wouldn't help. That if I tried to join a group or take up a semi-social hobby I'd just follow my usual pattern of not interacting any more than is necessary. I've never had close friends...and I'm honestly torn over whether or not I want them.

It also worries me that there's little actual fear here, other than minor anxieties about things like personal exposure and fear of judgement. Mostly I just...don't get much pleasure out of direct interaction (online is different, though even that can be draining after more than an hour). It's like social anxiety without the anxiety.

In addition...this "condition", whatever it is, bothers me. A lot. The fact that I'm so torn over whether or not I even want a social life leaves me feeling like a freak.

I wonder if your mother has always tried to exercise that sort of control in your life.

Not socially, if that's what you're getting at. Actually, my mom remained pretty uninvolved in my social life; didn't want to be one of those pushy parents trying to force their kid to be popular. All that social rejecting was 100% me.

In some ways, it was kind of helpful - I bounced around schools a lot growing up, including 4 high schools in 4 years, and making the switch was easy since I never had anyone to say goodbye to. Nor did being the new kid ever bother me. The switches were all for educational reasons anyway - my mom didn't like the school's academics or thought they weren't giving me what I needed, so I got shunted off to another school that was "better". We never moved homes though, always lived in the same place. Switches never bothered me, and most of the time I didn't seem to care one way or the other. Whatever school I was in, I was fine, I guess.

Actually, my mom insists I have no social problems. That I'm just introverted and I've never been around "people like myself" enough. Also, she considers the fact that I have no enemies, that people like me (for some reason. I've had so many encounters of people saying "hi" to me and I just think, "Who are you?"), and that I can conduct very basic conversations to be a sign that there's nothing wrong with me socially. Actually, she thinks I'm better socialized than most kids because of all that school switching - "How well socialized can you be when you spend 12 years around the same group of people?"

Also, the whole therapist thing is partially my fault. I fail at bringing up issues of import, I'm more likely to go with whatever the therapist wants to talk about. I never even know what to say during a first appointment - do I just dive right in to whatever's on my mind? Is there some kind of get-to-know-you protocol? Heck if I know. But yeah, we could have 3 or 4 appointments and I'll barely get to talk about what really troubles me. I'm pretty passive, in case you can't tell.

There's a difference in goals too. My mother wanted a therapist who's going to give me weekly assignments and yell at me, maybe even "fire" me if I fail to complete them. She wants/wanted (she's been letting up lately) someone to work with me on how I suck at time management and following schedules, how I have no direction and focus in life, how I'm near-incapable of sitting down and working. I want to work on things like my worsening depression, my obsessive tendencies, my perceived social issues, my total lack of any self-esteem.

To be fair, yeah, I've long perceived my mother as overbearing and somewhat controlling. She insists either no, she wasn't at all; or if she was, she had to be.

Sorry for the self-divulging ramble.

hi scientia, i am similar. sometimes it would be nice to interact with people besides my man. however, just the thought of it exhausts me. even here in the forum it's virtually impossible for me to partake in a conversation or discussion. i exchange a few words with a cashier or a colleague and that more than covers my desire for interaction. even though i get terribly lonely, i don't want the obligation of friendship. it doesn't seem worth it to me. i get tired quickly of people and turn away from them forever.

Thank you for explaining in such detail.

Here is a guess. I am thinking that your mother's control is a main root of the social problems. What you learned growing up is that there was no point in being active or taking initiative because your mother was going to intervene and control. Maybe she was like my mother and screamed at you if you dared to disagree. But even if she was not a screamer, she took so much control that you basically figured, perhaps subconsciously, why bother expressing my own ideas? And you became passive.

Also, changing schools so much was socially harmful to you, in my opinion. You perhaps saw no reason to connect with people because you would likely be leaving. And people do in fact learn social skills by being with the same or similar group over time. There is more to socializing than meeting someone new.

She didn't have to be directly involved to affect it. Family relationships affect the kind of person we are, the ways we express ourselves, and those background factors affect how we act socially, as well as how we act in other areas of life.

If you can control the choice of T, my suggestion is to avoid the Ts who give assignments and possibly "fire" you and want to improve time management. Problems in those areas are symptoms, not roots. Such a T would be doing again to you what has already happened to you in your life.

I think you have the right idea of issues to focus on, but I would add that a T should hear about your childhood relationship with your mother as well. I think you would do well with a T who has a psychodynamic orientation. The T should not take a lot of initiative in speaking but should help, encourage, and wait on you to speak.

This is because the relationship with T in session mirrors relationships in real life. You are passive in real life and so you are passive in session. In real life you don't speak about what is actually on your mind, and you don't do that with T either. A good T, though, should realize this and, over time, allow the relationship and trust with her/him to deepen to the point that you can say what is truly on your mind. It will be a great day when that self-disclosure begins to happen.

Fear of Intimacy -- For a person who struggles with this it is spelled -- Into Me See. A person who struggles with this, they do not want to allow anyone to get close enough to see them the way they see themselves.

This is usually rooted in childhood attachment deficiencies with parents or trusted member of the family. The self-esteem has been damaged as well. Oftentimes, if a child hasn't received the level of care and/or attention required from a parent, the child feels insecure and inadequate and as time goes by has a very negative self view of themselves. That coupled with other life experiences that may have compounded that feeling.

Nine times out of 10, the person's negative view of themselves is not related to anything they've done. In other words, they aren't as bad or undeserving as they make themselves out to be.

It is something that should be explored with a therapist and can be overcome with time once the sources and causes are clearly identified and dealt with.
There are other factors that can contribute to this as well and everyone is different and their experiences. It's worth the effort though.

I clipped what stands out to me, since you've asked what type of condition that you could have.

What type of progress is your mother expecting to see from your counseling sessions? What brings her to bounce you around from one therapist to the next so suddenly? Is family counseling happening, at the same time as your counseling? Or even, is anyone else in your home seeking therapy, at the same time as you?

I forget, recently, where I read about sending teens/young adults to therapy, but it concluded that family counseling would fare better and that statistically speaking, the parent(s) sending their children typically haven't been in counseling prior, although results fare better if the parent(s) go, as well.

It's certainly possible. I'm a bit into personality theory and one thing I've stumble don is that an "active" parent can influence a "passive" child in such a way. I didn't really become aware of feeling controlled until I got to be an adolescent. It's also one reason I moved out recently, being fed up with feeling controlled.

My mom wasn't much of a screamer, still isn't. But she does have a stronger personality than I do. College interviews used to be a disaster because if she came in with me, she'd monopolize the conversation. Same thing happened with some T's who tried to counsel us together.

One last thing I wonder if it's affected me: mental health issues run in my family. My mother has at last been diagnosed with a "cyclic mood disorder", and I know she was dealing with that as I was growing up. Now, that I'm 21 my mom is admitting there's something wrong with me. Yet I have earlier memories of trying to explain what was wrong to her and basically being blown off - it's just hormones, it's just a phase, everyone goes through that sometimes so don't worry about it; you don't know what real depression is, there's nothing wrong with you, etc. So I largely stopped trusting her with anything pertaining to feelings or mental health. I was always well taken-care of physically: always well fed, clean, and well-dressed. I had extracurriculars and reliable transport. But psychological stuff? Nah.

Now that we're more open in that regard, she denies having ever blown me off, or says that of course she wasn't going to take it seriously if I brought it up in a "ridiculous context", like saying I wanted to kill myself for coming in second in the school spelling bee (I didn't). Then goes on to say that she's thought I was "****ing weird" since I was about 10, not in relation to social things, but to other issues of mine. Apparently, all this time she was waiting for me to come to her for help, not wanting to be one of those parents who forces their kid into therapy at every emotional flux.

To be fair, I only went to 10 different schools, including a year of homeschooling, between kindergarten and 12th grade.

I totally agree. I suspect part of it's my real personality - maybe I'm that kind of person who takes a long time to open up. But who would know, avoiding the chance is so ingrained now...

I just know what issues are bothering me.

I've talked to a few people about issues at home, mostly anonymous folk on the internet. I also once checked myself into a psych ward over some frightening thoughts of self-harm where I met a caseworker who helped guide me through moving out and knows a bit about my background.

Multiple people now have called our relationship emotionally or mentally abusive.

I informed my mother of this when she called me, telling me that she'll have me imprisoned for libel if I tell anyone I'm abused, because it's a lie. When I bring up mental/emotional abuse, she throws the accusation back at me -that I've abused her by being nasty, throwing insults, constantly demanding to be left alone and freaking out if she comes near me. All behaviors I will openly admit I displayed through an utterly hellish year and a half living at home post-college-dropout. We were toxic to each other. I reject any abuse label and prefer to use that: toxic.

The point of this isn't to whine for sympathy but to point out how much of a freakout I'm going to get if I imply that my mom is the root of my issues. I can see it now - "What are you blaming me for? I never hurt you. I didn't beat you or hang you upside down in closets overnight. I was always there for you, unlike my own mother who didn't care if I lived or died. I didn't abandon you after your father died, I haven't even had a date in 14 years! I'm the only person who even cares about you, and if that idiot [therapist] tries to turn you against me, I'll see them in court!"

I've already had multiple conversations regarding my psych treatment where my mom has implied to me that disagreeing with her is a failure to "present a united front" and is some breach of family loyalty or some crap. This disturbs me, but it only really comes up in this context.

Also, my mom and I spent way too much time together. Neither of us had any local friends. Mine are/were mostly online and my mom and a few friends who lived in other parts of the country. After school, if I didn't have some kind of appointment or activity, we were cooped up in the same house, trying more or less to avoid each other.

I've left plenty of appointments disappointed in myself that I didn't speak up, or that I couldn't bring up my issues.

It does mirror, in a way. I hate self-disclosing in public (except with the anonymity of the internet) and I won't do it with a therapist either. At times there has been that same feeling of powerlessness, that I can't get a word in. Who knows, maybe it is a lack of trust from early perceived dismissal of my issues. Psychobabbly, but possible, I guess.

A simple fear of intimacy? You can go over my previous post if you'd like, I have had strain with a trusted family member regarding mental/emotional stuff. However, that didn't start until adolescence, whereas my FoI symptoms have been present since I was old enough to go to school. That's what I wonder about. Otherwise it does sound probable.

I will be honest, with all the self-examination I do, I see myself absolutely horribly. And yes, there is a fear that people are going to "realize" what I'm actually like on some level, even, now, if it's just seeing how empty and blank I am. And I've long had baseless, irrational shame about my preferences and ideas.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your father.

My mother used to say that sort of thing also, protect the family, don't blame me or your father.

The more your mother rails and threatens about your relationship with her, the more obvious and compelling is the need to speak about it in therapy.

First of all, though, I think that this therapy needs to be confidential and not include her. Your T must be rock solid in her/his ethical responsibility to keep her/his mouth shut and not discuss your therapy with your mother. You as well should not throw her red meat by revealing what you might be discussing if it seems to involve "blaming" her.

Really, too, the idea is not to blame, but to understand. I'm sure that it was very difficult for your mother after your father died. I'm sure that she has done many good things for you. I have come to realize that my own mother loved me, perhaps as much as she could under the circumstances. Quite possibly your mother has done the best that she could. Nevertheless: to make progress on freeing yourself from your problems, I believe that you will need to see with clear eyes where they came from, and to acknowledge and mourn the pain and losses that you experienced along the way.

What I mean't by simple FIS is that you were wondering about a possible personality disorder. FIS is often a co-morbid diagnosis with some personality disorders. It's possible to just have FIS/anxiety disorder without a personality disorder.

if it's just seeing how empty and blank I am. -- That is a common "complaint", if you will with FIS and other "issues". The person has numbed themselves to emotions, thus the empty feeling and feeling as though they are wearing a mask for the world.

Generally, FIS co-exists with anxiety and that is often the "prevailing" feeling a person experiences especially if they are faced with an emotionally intimate situation. It's the anxiety that causes them to recoil from the experience and pull away.

There are other possible explanations for your experience but I tend to lean toward the "simplest" explanation first. Not that FIS is an easy thing, it's just easier than a personality disorder which is often layered and combined with other things as well.

Bottomline, it's the pattern of negative self-thinking that often is the root of the issue you are describing. Usually, irrational and unfounded negative feelings about oneself. There are exercises for addressing that. Doing this kind of work really should be done with a therapist. There's more that goes into all this that you can't go to here. However, I will say that recognizing and accepting the things you've mentioned is certain a start.. Wanting to work on a problem is the beginning of recovery.

FoI symptoms have been present since I was old enough to go to school -- this implies some kind of emotional/physical trauma as a young child and may not be part of your consciousness. So, now, this could also include something else too.

I can venture this guess -- when your father passed away, your mother became overloaded, probably working a lot and distracted by various things and likely didn't connect with you on the level that a fully engaged parent would be able to do. She did the best she could, I"m sure, so we aren't blaming her. But, the lack of or lack of quality connection there would be a possible cause for all this. The lack of a connection to a male role model would also contribute.

If you can, see a therapist. It's worth the effort.

+1 on this; I think you should be seeking the type of help that you think you need, regardless of what your mother's goals for you are. In most states, 16 is the age of consent regarding getting treatment, so you may have more say in the matter than you think you do. You might want to think about doing your own search for a therapist and seeing if they will do a brief phone consultation (often they will for no charge) and if you find one that is promising, just present it to your mother as a done deal.

Thanks for the advice.

I definitely have some kind of anxiety - about multiple things, not just social matters. But thinking back to the one almost-relationship I had, yes, anxiety was the main thing I felt. But I also enjoyed it...to be fair, said relationship wasn't that healthy. He and I were polar opposites energy-wise (he was one of those very intense people, I'm slower and more chill); plus he had a rescuer syndrome and I was a mental mess thankful for a rescuer who made me feel cherished. Until he found someone who "needed him more" and ran off with her for a while, then came back to me...it was an awful idea.

Your point about my mom is something I've considered now that I'm older. That might be why she often seemed emotionally unavailable to me. I should be understanding, I shouldn't be so wrapped up in my own interpretation...nope, still annoyed.

I'll be honest, I'm trying to take everything you say into consideration...but I don't really believe in repression. I'm not sure about the notion that I have some unconscious trauma. Honestly, my mom always chalked my behavior up to eccentricity associated with high intelligence (which I doubt, for reasons).

Maybe it's time to start looking at real options such as living in the wilderness. For many years i have fantasized getting together with a community and living in the woods, the idea being that we would find a piece of land maybe even over 100 miles from civilization fertilize soil grow our own food, fish, trap, hunt and then store it so that we would have enough to eat during the cold months. The idea would be to build a large cabin in the woods and live there as a group supporting each other emotionally and with whatever problems head our way living in modern society is a pain in the *** honestly. Lol

If your mother was emotionally unavailable to you as a young child, combined with the loss of your father, that would be enough trauma. Lack of parental "availability" is traumatic to a child. It leaves them feeling disconnected and untethered to the world. This is extremely important for childhood development. When they don't have the necessary bond to parents, they essentially live inside themselves and remain emotionally "stunted" into adulthood. Basically, trapped in time emotionally. They also become very cerebral in their views/thinking/understanding of life. Highly intellectualized . . .

I kind of thought I was like that - highly cerebral, intellectual - I'm actually kind of now. I have reasons - the short version: I'm kind of obsessed with intelligence and tried to convince myself for years that I was appropriately unemotional and logical, including trying to "kill" my emotions (for two reasons. One was trying to conform to an idealized stereotype - the other was not wanting to feel pain anymore..)...I'm not, though. But that's all another issue for another thread. It's still an obsession that's kind of gotten worse...

And I mean no disrespect, I'm not trying to be argumentative....but I don't really feel I have a right to feel emotionally abandoned. Even though, honestly, I do. I recall being as young as 9 or 10, and I now realize "emotional abandonment" is the best term for what I felt. And I know there was a fear of her dying as well, but mostly that only cropped up when she was in a depressive state and talking about suicide. No idea why I felt the way I did , my guess would be stuff involving grief and being busy. Pretty sure if my mom heard this she'd say it was just hormones, since I did start developing physically around that same time.

And again, I've been told for years that I wasn't emotionally abandoned, my mom insists she was always there even though I guess I didn't believe it...yeah, I don't know who's right. Besides, I wasn't even that young when all this happened, too young for it to have such a lifelong effect?

Your father had passed away and your mother spoke to you about her own suicide, in other words, she spoke of intentionally leaving you. Of course a child would feel abandoned.

But I would not attend too much right now to the specific term emotional abandonment. My view is to speak in therapy about your relationship with your mother, and the correct words, whatever they may be, will gradually become apparent to you and to your T.

I've been told for years that I wasn't emotionally abandoned, my mom insists she was always there even though I guess I didn't believe it. -- If that is how you've felt, then that is YOUR reality, how you perceive it. And, really, if this is how you feel about it, it's probably true. Your mom's perception of "being there" for you may simply be about "I fed her, clothed her, put a roof over her head", etc. She did her best to take care of your physical needs, but if she was distracted emotionally herself, she may not have been "all in" for you and clearly she wasnt -- she was in a depressive state and talking about suicide. If you were old enough to understand suicide -- that by itself would be a huge source of fear, mistrust, confusion and would cause a child to start living inside themselves in case that happened! Operating with this kind of fear hanging over you had to be difficult. If a parent is depressed, they aren't being fully emotionally supportive to their children. They can't be.

Pretty sure if my mom heard this she'd say it was just hormones -- that is negating your experience of losing your father and your grieving process. Minimizing the effect it had.

I don't really feel I have a right to feel emotionally abandoned -- Your feelings are YOUR feelings. You have the "right" to feel the way you feel -- she was in a depressive state and talking about suicide. You feel the way you feel for a reason or several reasons. You do not sound as though you are creating a false set of issues for yourself -- that's about attention seeking, external validation for some sort of gain.

too young for it to have such a lifelong effect? -- If all this happened before you became a fully engaged, independent, functioning adult, it doesn't matter how old you were really. It will have a life-long effect.

I would caution you though from going into the "blame" mode as I said earlier. You have to keep in mind that there is no handbook for parents. And, the possibility exists that your mother experienced somethings that were not healthy for her emotional development as well on top of the tremendous strain losing your father would have caused. It's important not to blame because that takes the "responsibility" off of you as an adult. It was not your fault what happened to you as a child and caused this in you. It does, however, become your responsibility once you discover and acknowledge the situation for yourself. In other words, your mother cannot fix things for you. You need to do that for yourself. Take "yourself" back. You have the "control" now and that sense of empowerment should be the source for addressing your "issues" and moving forward with your life and achieving a happy and rewarding emotional life experience. Not numb but alive. Blocking emotions is usually about blocking negative feelings, but while you are doing that, you are also blocking the truly wonderful emotions as well. .

I'm really late to this thread, so I am going back to your OP - part of what you said is a problem I struggle with also: I want more friends or better friendships, but when it comes down to how I want to spend my time, I'd often rather be alone.

I've done very little thinking about why this is as I am not sure it would help, but I have tried the 'talk to people more' approach. I find that it has made talking to people easier, but I am not sure that I like it anymore than I did before. I feel like I need to do it in order to advance professionally, but at the same time, I never feel quite good enough to decisively move forward. I am reluctant to reveal much about myself or projects I work on because I feel like a fraud, like I don't know enough.

I'm kind of scared to get too introspective or deep about all the whys, but I also have that conflict of want/don't want.

I think you need to save money, and get your own therapist, and stay with them. There are some places that take payment on a sliding scale.

In trying to catch up on all the posts, one thing really stood out to me: all those multiple schools you have been to. This definitely did not set you up for success when it comes to establishing and building relationships. It would certainly add to those abandonment issues too. You weren't allowed the opportunity to have meaningful relationships and it would have reinforced the inability to meet peers as well. As someone who changed schools multiple times myself, this really speaks to me and I am so sorry to learn you have gone through this.

It sounds as though your mom is what is now being termed as a 'helicopter parent'. No wonder your frustration at trying to establish some independence. I think you said you work. Is this an opportunity to escape mom entirely or is she involved in that too?