Venting and sorting thoughts.... Kinda long

Im really dumbfounded by these replies. Im shocked.

Ive really torn myself up for a lot of years that I wasnt good enough. I felt really guilty posting this today as it felt unfair to her. She is mentally and physically sick. I do believe she gives us 100 per cent of what she can give. I do believe in sickness and health because health can turn instantly for anyone. I do belive death do us part.

But, Id like a little appreciation, and a lot less anger from her. Im tired of the anger. Im especially tired that ultimately any argument can be deflected until she can route it to my past porn use, 8 years later. Porn use, infidelity, is the ultimate fault, Ive done it and she hasnt, so I owe her.

Ive been in individual counselling for a year.

It was a porn use couples counselor who gave me the warning 8 years ago.

If you grow up in an alcoholic home you carry that sense of responsibility, and work ethic, and a fear of losing people close to you. I am thankful my parents are well now, that amends are made, and I still have them, that we've had time for that.

You also dont drink or do drugs because youve seen it too close.

Ive also never had anyone else validate that sex and affection are a need until today. My wife has said for years they arent.

When Ive said, what am I supposed to do if these arent met, her reply was "go without Because you never go outside the marriage to have needs met."

So, I have tried for a long time to get things right enough that she will want me.

Ive said, Im a good provider, good parent, and involved Dad. Her reply was that what I do for the kids is for the kids, not for her. So.. Ive kept trying for her.

Thank you for these comments and validation. Im not used to them.

Again, things that are just simply true, and never spoken about to anyone...

She had a reaction to medication not long ago and collapsed. I kept the kids in the game room, occupied, while I cleared her air way, carried her to bed, checked vitals, and called 911.

Ive also saved one of our kids from drowning during a beach vacation. Literally, swept into deep water, and I got him back. Second kid rushed in to help, got in trouble, and I got him too.

Twice we had a kid with long term health problems, years apart, and I took extended leave from work to look after him.

Those things dont get you points or make you more attractive, according to my wife. They are just the right thing to do.

So... I help with homework, bring coffee and wine, and make meals she likes, and put aside one night a week for dating, just us, as well as numerous short day time coffee dates.

Im done. Im waiting to see what happens.

RDM

In some sense, she's right. You either choose to go without because you can't force anyone into sex.. or you step out of the marriage and get it elsewhere.

I really feel for you. She's not well. I get you shared your vows which clearly means a lot to you. I also believe in compromise. I also don't believe we can use our illnesses as an "excuse". Sure, it's a reason but with any barriers, and for the love of the people in our lives, we try our best to work through those barriers.

As I've mentioned already, this sounds more to me like abuse. She's isolated you from the world, apart from your job and probably because she needs you to financially provide for the family, and that'snot ok.

You've decided to wait and see. I think this is a great idea because you will learn a lot by watching. Ultimately, you will make the right choice, eventually.

You are a dad to your kids and so you're obliged to do your part in raising them, yes. However, the issue isn't that you're going over the top, the issue is she isn't meeting you part way. She has thrown in the towel a long time ago and you're just seeing this for the first time, now.

What (if anything) did she offer as a reason for you sleeping downstairs?

I know this question wasn't for me. He said:

If one of your children was with someone like your wife what would you advise them to do ??

Yes in sickness and health but she isn’t a paraplegic so she surely can do some stuff around and she sure should be able to be nice to her husband

I also wonder why is she drinking alcohol if she is that unwell

It’s tricky with kids. They see everything and always know more than we think. What’s their take on it? They will think that’s how good marriage supposed to look like if that’s all they see

Thank you for taking the time to answer me. Your interpretation isn't what I meant, but it's a good interpretation and I think quite correct for the situation. I actually meant if one had higher expectations, the other person would either live up to them or leave (if the person knew that meeting those higher expectations were part of continuation of the relationship. Sort of a game of relationship Chicken.)

I would not want one of my kids in a relationship like this. I think about how I am normalizing this to them.

I have always carried insecurities that I wasn't good enough, so I have never felt like I could play relationship chicken. I always felt lucky to have her, and out of my legue.

In recent years, ANY expectation, or anything I call her on, is excused and deflected, all my faults pointed out, until she can say, "you cheated. You used to look at porn." Then her pain and right-ness is held up to see and Im apologizing and trying to get her back.

It's been important to me to accept her as she was, always, because she never had that in a narcissistic home, and recognize she is sick, and allowances have to be made. Again, things werent always to this degree, but boy they have slid there in the last few years. Progressively since 2012, and really bad since 2018 or so. Shes angry at me for something, and threatening to leave, or live seperate lives under the same roof very, very regularly.

Our oldest sees these things.

Less contact with my parents in recent years has meant far more emotional self reliance. It has also made my personal self reliance grow too.

Our oldest has said to me that he doesnt want a relationship like ours, "nothing against mom," he says, but he does want to be "rock solid" like his dad, he has said.

Since covid hit, my senior managers have told me that, though Im not a manager, they need me in a demonstrable leadership role, because I am influential and the other staff look to me for direction. I didn't know that.

At home, during covid, I saw how disparate the expectations are between her and I.

Then, I spent 2 nights downstairs, and I faced the "what if" fear of spliting up... Just quietly thought about it. Im still scared, but far less scared. Others have done it and they lived, so chances are I will too.

Seeing my own situation more clearly, growing in self reliance, hearing my son say this stuff, hearing my managers say they need me because of my leadership is changing things for me. Im ok. Im good enough to warrant some affection and desire. Im good enough not to have to constantly pursue. Im good enough not to beg for sex.

RDM

I can see why a member here says this sounds abusive.

She has isolated you from your own family, she is very controlling of you and condemning of you, she does not give anything within the relationship, and she denies you of essential needs within the relationship. Those are all characteristics of abuse.

I see you as being overly obligated and being a caretaker of someone who is in fact, harming you in many different ways - which is actually codependency. Though I am no therapist so I won’t attempt to diagnose, but often kids of alcoholic parents grow to become codependent. Did your therapist mention anything about codependency?

Since you used an expression I wrote, I am guessing you did actually see my message. Perhaps you saw the other one, too--it was actually more important because it was written directly to you and not in reply to one of the women who has been corresponding with you on this thread. So let me restate a couple of things --and be more explicit so there is less room for interpretation and then I will let you get on with stuff.

My only goal was to say that since you chose this woman; you also could choose how to react to this woman.

And to broaden the message up: if what anyone wants is an active, involved, engaged, loving partner, say so and act accordingly.

That’s good advice but within this particular relationship I see his wife doing the opposite. She seems to not want to give him anything he needs and wants, and he’s already been the giving, doting and loving partner. I personally think they should divorce.

I think she threatens to leave because she knows you won’t let that happen.

She can’t leave, she can’t support herself and can’t even handle daily tasks, even if you pay her alimony it’s typically not enough to survive on her own unless she wants to live in extreme poverty, and she has no extended family to help her.

So she ain’t going no where, at least not on her own accord. She just manipulates you

I’d call her bluff. “Sure I understand you want to leave. That’s ok. Let’s do that.”

This ^^

She can say all she wants but she's really been living in a care-free bubble with little-to-no responsibilities. She's not going to want to let this go. She really does NEED you.

Next time she threatens, say, "If you think that's for the best.." and let her think about it.

@RDMercer I am sorry you have been so unhappy in your marriage. It’s not easy to live with someone that has both mental health challenges and health challenges too.

If your wife did grow up with narcissistic parents she was taught that her emotional needs were a bad thing and a burden. Narcissists LIE and notoriously twist everything around faulting others. They are very hypocritical tell others what to do and casting judgements on others while they themselves are far from perfect. They can pretend to care, but they don’t instead it’s just part of their mask. Their motivation is about taking over and controlling. If you are not with them, you are against them. Borderlines can be the same way which is often why they typically make the best partners in the narcissist’s dance.

Just because your wife went no contact with her parents doesn’t mean she has rid herself of the damage she suffered.

Sometimes a person can be so crippled and damaged they become detached. The person can get so sensitive and their anxiety can get so crippling that they do less and less.

I cant jump on the band wagon and condemn your wife. It’s very possible that she suffers in a way that most don’t understand unless they themselves experience what your wife experiences.

I myself suffer from ptsd and it can get downright crippling. I have days where it’s so bad that just getting through the day is an accomplishment. If it’s that challenging it can be quite a feat to sit at a computer and try to write a college paper. Actually when I found this site and I would put in the effort to write out a post it took me a really long time. I was a lot worse than I am sure others realized at the time. Actually, looking back on that time and remember how badly I was suffering I am actually amazed at what I did manage to do.

Often the behavior you have shared isn’t so much that you are not good enough or even appreciated but more of an indication of how the other person is suffering and has so little sense of personal strength and they are deeply depressed about it.

It’s actually a positive that your wife spends time doing her art. It’s not a bad thing that she at least tries to take an online course. It’s very possible that the medication she is on takes away her sex drive.

What I can say is struggling with mental illness can really suck. And if you add also struggling with some kind of health challenge too? That can make it even harder. It sounds like your wife has just found her own way to just exist. I know i have experienced days myself where it was so bad that all my effort went into just getting through the day. If my husband sat next to me and rubbed my feet it was a big deal to me in just being able to feel something good. Or on the occasions he rubs my back often he brings so much relief because on bad days the level of stress and anxiety is so bad I can be in a lot of pain.

Some people can struggle with mental illness and still manage to work. I know that all to well myself. I know that if another person could some how jump in my body and experience what it’s like to be me and work anyway they would look at me very differently. I am sure they would say omg I can’t believe you manage to work with that kind of challenge.

Now, I am not trying to get you to feel guilty about how challenging it’s been for you to live with a person that has both mental health and some kind of physical health challenge. I believe it’s been very hard on you. Also I can see by what you share that you actually are trying to be sensitive and understanding. You seem very torn and at times suffer from some cognitive dissonance because of that. I too have been challenged that way and it’s hard.

I am also very sensitive to how you experienced being exposed to alcoholism in your past too. That’s a tough disease to deal with. That’s been a part of my life pretty much all my life. There is a lot of narcissism in that disease. There is a lot of denial in that disease as well as walking on egg shells. Some people actually get mean under the influence of alcohol and rage and say mean things. Personally, I want nothing to do with someone that is actively drinking. I don’t even want to hear the I will just limit how much I drink either. I already know that’s just an alcoholics line of denial. Binge alcoholics ALWAYS say that. I know the extra being the responsible one means. I am very familiar with the damage that disease causes. I carry that in me too. I respect the challenge and the effort one has to put in to staying sober. I do respect the challenge yet I also carry in me the trauma I suffered from dealing with someone who has that disease. It’s actually part of the ptsd I suffer from.

I guess I wanted to validate your challenge but also not just jump on the condemning of someone that may be suffering and managing their challenge where just getting through a day is a big challenge. I know that at times I don’t do all the things I used to do. I know some of that is connected to how my effort to do a lot of things was very disrespected and somehow never good enough. I do suffer from narcissistic abuse. It’s definitely part of my ptsd. So I can’t tell you your wife is a bad person. However I can understand how her overall condition can be hard to live with. She sounds very lost and that is what can happen with mental illness. Sometimes it really is a big deal to finish a paper for a college course. I do remember how I was struggling so badly that for me it was a big deal to just create a post here at PC. I have spent a great deal of time learning about that. I sat at my computer and would read and post and felt so lost and because it was so bad I remembered thinking about how bad I felt for anyone suffering like that.

I am sorry you are so challenged with a wife that clearly is suffering from mental and physical health challenges. I think you should reach out to a therapist who can help you with this challenge. Does your wife see a therapist?

Also how are your children dealing with their mother being challenged like this? Do you sit and talk to them to see how they are doing?

Thanks Open Eyes.

You really nailed a lot of points.

She lived in a narcissistic borderline home. I saw it. Its real. She has been in counselling for ptsd for years.

The lies told about her tore all her extended family away from her until she went no contact.

She has worried about me saying too much to family and friends about anything with her, because it is triggering if her ptsd, having had lies told about her for years. So... Distance from everyone.

Me and the kids are all she has. She has given up a career to be home, then illness stole her prior two atrempts at school from her.

She has said, some days all she can do is not be in bed. Just get dressed and showered and join us.

If you know this type of physical and mental illness, you know having someone finding fault with you is crushing. You know, someone being upbeat with you and kind and engaging is needed.

Right now though, I go, what am I receiving? Theres no sex, no affection (never was much), no moral support, no understanding, little daily help, and a LOT of anger, and righteous anger, and threats to leave, or threats to make me live in the basement. I dont have to say or do anything much before it snowballs to that degree.

My work requires me to travel a couple of overnight trips a season. Ive preferred to drive the 12 hours round trip in a day instead of staying overnight. EVERY overnight trip has resulted in angry phone calls because she is so exhausted and alone, and they culminate with my past porn viewing, and a request for divorce. So, I put in 19 hour days those days instead.

The anger is about anything. We had sex a couple of times this year. The problem? It was really good. Obviously I must have learned it from someone, or been watching porn again, because the sex was good. So which is it.

Im tired.

This has been easier lately and more peaceful. Ive stopped wanting or expecting affection from her, Ive stopped looking to her for validation. My times alone have been good. Im doing more of what I enjoy.

Im going to start phoning family and friends more too.

RDM

Her having mental illness in no way shape or form excuses or justifies her mistreatment of you. Just because she suffers from mental health issues does not translate to mean she is allowed to then mistreat you as her husband. It may explain some of her behaviors and her extreme self absorption, but in my opinion, you are being mistreated.

Yeah. I am.

You arent the first to say it.

Counselors have told me as well. When the first said it, I quit going to her, because I thought she was too extreme. The next one said it too.

I cant tell you the personal insults, name calling and berating I take regularly. If I push back by simply saying, that too much, youve gone too far, the winning argumeng of porn is played, and Im asked to slerp elsewhere.

Ive stopped being scared of these. Her opinion matters less and less.

I'll not be mistreated for much longer.

Things will change, or I will build an apartment in the house for me, or she'll leave.

Ive been afraid of distance, of not having her. Letting go has been pretty peaceful.

Wow, I can really relate with your wife in this. I, It's a heavy weight.. paralyzing.. and I often feel completely unsafe because I don't trust what my partner passes on to others.

Having said that, I choose to make myself a responsible parent and put aside my pain to bring happiness to our children. Dad does the same (thankfully). It's an equal partnership. He says I'm a "really strong" person but I believe it's a "want" for the better of the kids. It's not perfect.

I'm thinking the porn issue isn't about porn itself but about trust. She's felt so betrayed that this single act from you pushed her over the edge. I'm not certain you'll ever be able to fix this to her comfort level.

I really feel for her, too, and remember, she is one member of the family. You can't erase her past or take away her physical ailments.. let alone, her PTSD, depression, and anxiety. You have yourself and your children's health to consider, as well.

I think your approach now is the right approach. You can't continue carrying her burden. Let it go. I wonder if there's been a bit of (unintentional) enabling? She hasn't had to rise to the occasion because you've taken everything on, yourself.

I think she'll have to hit rock bottom before she can realize she's contributing to this toxic lifestyle. Continue as you are and love her enough to let her fall and pick herself up. She'll gain strength in that and so will you. She can't hide behind you forever.

It sounds like your wife might have narcissistic tendencies herself. Everything must be about her. She grew up in
that environment and sadly absorbed those tendencies herself. The world evolves around her and her needs, in her mind it does. In reality it doesn’t.

It’s never ok to mistreat, berate and call people names and take advantage of people’s generosity and kindness. Not ok

I am glad you aren’t willing to tolerate it much longer. You are getting stronger by day.

Has there been any discussion of, or experience with, her going in-patient at a psychiatric hospital for a time?

I think you know I am not condoning or making excuses for her behavior. I actually had a feeling from what you shared that your wife is suffering from ptsd. Most likely complex ptsd. Actually there is a bit of a spectrum when it comes to ptsd as one person can have it worse than another.

Yup some women really have a problem with porn and feel it’s a form of cheating. Sounds like your wife is still very angry that you did watch porn by the way she expressed that after you did manage to have sex.

It’s not unusual for someone to have some bpd tendencies due to a parent exhibiting bpd behaviors. There can be some of that either you agree with me or you are against me tendencies.

Does your wife drink wine every night?

Good suggestion.

I’m glad you recognize and see that you are being mistreated.

Name calling, insults and berating are forms of verbal abuse. She is also using the porn as a weapon against you in order to win every argument and avoid taking any responsibility.

I tend to agree with Divine on this point and thought the same exact thing myself: that your wife sounds narcissistic. It is all about her needs and every little thing revolves around her. Quite frankly, I now believe that you’re being emotionally and verbally abused.

I’m glad you’re stepping back and will no longer cater to her as you have been. I’m sure that does bring you a sense of peace.

Ok...

I know the porn and lying was wrong. Like I said, I was shocked how damaging it was to her.

Eight years later, it is still the only thing that matters.

Saving her life, saving a kid's life, literally tending to her daily for years while very sick, and raising the kids, and carrying the financial load.... Those things dont give me worth. I am a terrible husband and partner.

I think to someone else those things would be valued in a partner.

Im going to say this carefully.... Deep anxiety and depression and pain must limit someones scope, their range. I dont think she is narcissistic. I do think she is unable to see past herself at times because she is so absorbed in her pain. That, and pain, makes for defensiveness... Thats what I think Im seeing.

Im tired of not being good enough.

I personally oppose to porn and don’t have it in our marriage but if I had a partner who sat around while I did everything and berated me and showed me no kindness or affection whatsoever, I don’t know what I would do, maybe worse than porn. You are only human. People do all kind of stuff in desperation.

I don’t want to diagnose online. It was just a suggestion that she might be showing some signs of few personality disorders, particularly because of her behavior being rather extreme

She needs to seek proper mental and physical treatment. Her meds might need adjustment. What would she do if she didn’t have you to do everything? Would she seek proper help and at least occasionally get off the couch? Perhaps she would. Would she be as nasty if she had a husband who isn’t as nice as you? I bet you not. She acts like this because she can.

You are good enough and then some. Trust me there are ton of good women who’d be delighted to have you as a partner. And your kids are lucky to have you as a father