FWI. I went through the fun part for 15 years.

It saddens and worries me to see what you are all going through.
I applied the extra lip gloss, wore the tighter sweater, put on the higher heel, everything that I am reading here. Why do I read this? Because I know that 99.9% of you will have the same crash and burn that I did, after more than 15 years. Like me, you will feel used, stupid and burned. Chances are you will never get a proper explanation why you are being cast aside, they become total cowards when it comes to accountability. Maybe you have been replaced or maybe they are afraid of the consequences of their indiscretions. I never got that answer, and odds are that you won't either.
He/She is totally noticing and getting off on your adoration. Do not believe for a moment that you are too subtle to be read like a book.
Sorry to be harsh. But I read in you so much of myself. The eventual pain and trauma will not be worth the little "highs" you are feeling now. The longer you remain, the more intense the trauma.
I have no investment here. You will do what you will. But somewhere down the line you WILL remember this post.

If neither side acts on anything, or if the feelings are all one sided, do you think there is still a danger? Is a T's bloated ego enough to be destructive?

If you are in therapy to address your weaknesses and/or insecurities there is already a power dynamic. Are you self-protective enough to fend off the "one sided" feelings? Great. But that would suggest to me that the balance of power is uneven on your side. if you can still benefit in a positive and productive way you are fortunate indeed!

It seems that the power imbalance is part of the structure of therapy, for better or worse. If I am the one with feelings but he isn't and I don't act on it do you think that is still damaging? I'm curious about what you mean -- obviously having a dual relationship with a T is probably not a great idea, but where is the line? (no judgement from me here towards anyone in a dual relationship)

I am also curious about why you feel so sure there will be eventual pain and trauma. I had told my T about my transference, we discussed it, and he made sure to convey to me that he never intended to act in a way that would lead to it being "unsafe" as he put it. About 9 months in, after getting some clues from his behavior in my presence, I asked him point blank, he told me that yes, he felt attracted to me. We talked about it in one or two sessions, though never about his feelings, just their effect on me, and on therapy. Now I find myself a little bit back at square one. I have gained in other parts of therapy. I no longer am as obsessed with him as I was, but I still have feelings for him. On his side however, he has learned to either disguise his feelings better, or he does not feel them as intensely, or perhaps not at all. So I feel I have gone back to the dynamic of wanting him, and wishing for him to return the feelings. The only good thing seems to be I don't feel it to be as intensely painful as the first time, perhaps partly because he did admit his feelings and partly because of changes in my own personal life that resulted in being able to fulfill my sexual needs a bit better.

I am not sure whether he gets off on my feelings or not. I cannot tell. For all I know, it may be painful for him as well, I don't know what exactly he felt about me - just a passing attraction, something more, I don't really know. As therapy has progressed I think I feel him become a little warmer and caring towards me, so I feel that perhaps we are closer in some sense, I don't know, in the sort of regard that he has for me, it feels warmer.

I guess I am trying to say his manner doesn't feel to me that he is getting off on my feelings, but maybe I'm naive.

Yeah, I don't think it is as invariably destructive as you portray it. I have feelings for my T and he has feelings for me. We have discussed them. I am very clear that I am not leaving my husband nor cheating on him. My T is professional and makes it clear he will maintain the boundaries. The feelings I have for T, while quite painful for me at times, have actually improved my relationship with my husband a great deal. The relationship with T really brought home to me what I am missing in my 'real' life and what I really need and want. My H, to his great credit, was willing to work on his end of things and try to stretch and grow to bring those things to our relationship. Currently, my relationship with H is better than it has ever been, and we have been together almost 25 years. So through the pain and discomfort and embarrassment of the feelings for T, I have gained a great deal in my life.

I just hope that when he is out of the equation between you and your husband you will continue to thrive is that relationship.

Based on your last reply, I get the sense that you do have a little bit of investment here.

It's true that sexual feelings within an unbalanced relationship can be a fast-track ticket to abuse. But it neither has to be that way every time there are sexual feelings, nor do there have to be sexual feelings for an unbalanced relationship to rapidly head south.

I'm some combination of what FFF and MKAC posted. I have strong feelings for my T, although those have changed and matured over time. I'm aware he has feelings for me, but as with FFF, we don't spend a lot of time on those. My T is really careful -- sometimes too careful -- to keep any personal gratification on his part out of the equation. So if he ever suspects he might be doing something for his benefit and not mine (including being vague about his feelings), he questions it and thinks it over.

Like MKAC, I have benefited from the transference a great deal in my marriage. And not in little band-aid, week-to-week ways. Insights I've gained over the years with my T are what have helped me a better person and better wife. They're permanent. I mean I slip up from time to time, and have rough patches, but I don't rely on my T to allow me to continue to be the woman I am now. I just am.

The red flags I see in your post are:

- calling it "fun": honestly, it really shouldn't be all that fun. I'm not saying YOU did something wrong, I'm saying your T handled it really poorly if he allowed it to be flirtation and superficial gratification of your need to be desired. I can't say this is fun for me or my T. It's work, and it's frustrating. It feels good at times because we've built a deep bond, but it really hasn't been fun.

- the implication that your apparently obvious desire for your T was never discussed: Again. YOU did not do something wrong. If your T clearly noticed it and played along like it was a fun game, it's your T who didn't do his job.

- looking for something negative in MKAC's post: perhaps because I know her well, I know that like me, what she's gotten weren't band-aids from one session to the next. Accepting someone's flirtation might make them feel good from one week to the next, but it's ultimately empty. Your response to her technically reads as supportive, but it's an odd way to respond to her reassurance to others that erotic transference can lead to positive change with some hard work and endurance -- it pretty clearly indicates that you suspect her marriage won't last without her T, which is a pretty heavy-handed thing to imply. It's not a question, such as "do you think you'll be able to continue to have a happy marriage when your T relationship is over?"

Sadly, there have been a lot of people here who were burned by their T's. Too many. But what they have in common isn't sexual attraction. People with maternal attachments have had difficulties too. People with none of the above have had problems. Unethical T's come in all shapes and sizes. To me, the problem was that your T wasn't there to help you, and used your attachment to feed his ego, rather than turning it back to you and helping you understand it. I absolutely agree that as soon as sexual feelings enter the room the T needs to up his/her game. At this point it becomes easy for things to head in the wrong direction. But that does not mean that they will.

I *have* been in a relationship like yours, though. Not with a T. It too provided superficial, temporary, and ultimately empty relief for feelings of loneliness and need I had at the time. And I was feeding someone's ego, and at first it was nice to have someone paying attention to me. But the more he took, the worse it was, until I wasn't someone I even recognized anymore. So I am pretty familiar with that path. My T and I aren't on it. I am sorry -- truly sorry -- that that is what happened to you. You didn't deserve it, and don't deserve to be handling the aftermath alone.

I say this as encouragement to people who are currently struggling with romantic feelings for their Ts -- it can be a rich learning experience, although it's painful, hard work, and I wouldn't fault anyone for opting out. I also say this because I hope you can focus on the things that specifically happened between you and your T, so you can find a way to be at peace and eventually move on.

sally

Thank you. I am in the process. I finally stopped returning. But he stole 15 years of my life - more than half of all that time was spent developing a whole different type of relationship. The most important message I want to send is that I AM NOT, EVER, SITTING IN JUDGEMENT.

"looking for something negative in MKAC's post: perhaps because I know her well, I know that like me, what she's gotten weren't band-aids from one session to the next. Accepting someone's flirtation might make them feel good from one week to the next, but it's ultimately empty. Your response to her technically reads as supportive, but it's an odd way to respond to her reassurance to others that erotic transference can lead to positive change with some hard work and endurance -- it pretty clearly indicates that you suspect her marriage won't last without her T, which is a pretty heavy-handed thing to imply. It's not a question, such as "do you think you'll be able to continue to have a happy marriage when your T relationship is over?"

You are correct, and I am clearly overly suspicious because of not only mine but other people's experience as well. I feel it is a legitimate question, but I understand that it (and many responses I make) sounds harsh. If it works for her I am happy, but I hope that she will give some thought to my comment."

I actually did not really understand your comment other than you were implying for some reason that you doubted what I had to say and that somehow ending my T relationship would affect my marriage poorly. That did not make sense to me at all. If I can work hard and improve my marriage while in a T relationship where the T and I have an attraction for each other, how would ending the T relationship make my marriage worse?

My H and I were friends, as well as spouses, before I began therapy. Therapy opened my eyes to how much I have been missing in my life, to how guarded I have been with my H and my friends, and how superficial I kept those relationships in many ways. Because of the attraction to my therapist, and the way that relationship made me face the pain of what I desperately want and wasn't getting in my life, I was able to find the courage to be more open and vulnerable with my H and with my friends. My marriage and my friendship have been deeper, closer, and more intimate and supportive. Which is not to say I don't still have work to do there, but five years ago, I would not have imagined how good things could be with my H. Honestly, I do not see any way that ending the T relationship will somehow suddenly make those improvements just go away.

I am saying that IF a therapist is ethical, and IF the client in question really wants to stay focused on the relationships that person is already in, a mutual attraction between a therapist and a client is not necessarily some huge disaster in the making. Yes, it ends badly sometimes, but I do not think that is necessarily the majority experience.

Not sure why that is showing up huge, but I cannot seem to make it smaller.

I have the same problem with the font. I guess I don't take the time necessary to reply in that streamlined efficient way the most people do...I do sincerely wish the best for you, never intended to suggest otherwise.

SallyBrown, thanks for your post above. I wonder if you have any advice for me. I think I would like to benefit from therapy and from this attraction to T, but I cannot articulate properly how. For example, I think that I would like to hear him state more precisely how my desire affects him, and how it affects his (therapy) care for me. But I feel he avoids talking about it at all - maybe because he feels that bringing his feelings into things is a bad thing?

I know that it affects how I speak with him. For example I am hesitant to express freely how happy I am with the new person I am seeing, how nice the sex is, etc. for fear of it paining him. I know the thing to do is bring this point up and hope for the best....

I don't know, I guess I wondered if you had any advice for my particular situation about how to best use it in therapy.

Hey, just wanted to let you know I saw this and have been thinking about it. I don't have much time to post these days so it might be a while, but I really do want to respond.

I really feel what you're saying. I have been with my T for 9 years (!) so there have been many different phases to our relationship. Overall, I think it's important to be patient and flexible -- and to have a patient and flexible T.

To your last point, I'm actually going through something similar now, where I have something to bring up, but I also have a lot of baggage around it, and specific concerns about the discussion. What's worked for me is talking about the stuff I'm worried about first. Sometimes I try to just suck it up and bring things up, but that isn't always a permanent solution, and it can perpetuate misunderstandings.

Another thing is taking time -- both in and out of therapy -- to examine why you want to know what you want to know. It's important that it's the information you want, that will help you. My biggest thing is avoiding asking questions where rather than wanting to know the real answer, what I want is to be told what I want to hear. It's always good to ask, what if he says something that isn't what I was hoping for? Will it be worthwhile, or will it cause me nothing but grief?

Hoping to get back to you later. PM me anytime, too .

First off, I just wanted to say to the likely many lurkers here who are having attraction issues with their Ts or with others in positions of authority... listen up y'all, if someone says to you, "Some people are SO concerned with boundaries, but you can relax, you're safe with me," THIS PERSON IS NOT SAFE. This is the person you RUN AND DO NOT WALK AWAY FROM. This is the T that you DO NOT WANT.

There are studies that have shown that being casual with boundaries is correlated with being less likely to maintain them: couples who have an action plan if they find themselves in a questionable situation with someone to whom they are attracted are LESS likely to cheat than couples who rely on being in lurv and deny that any plan is needed. It's funny because sometimes there's the criticism that if you can really be trusted not to cheat on your SO, you ought be able to sleep naked next to your celebrity crush and have nothing happen. That's a very nice thought, but it's not very reflective of reality. I and the other people I know who avoid spending time alone with people to whom I'm finding myself a bit attracted aren't doing so because we're sex-crazed maniacs who will instantly get it on with the first person we're allowed to be alone with.

Same with my T. I don't see him as so attracted to me he needs to rein himself in. I see him as working hard to maintain the balance between boundaries that protect our relationship (the analogy being, not going out to a fancy one-on-one dinner with a married friend-who-might-be-more), and being open enough that we're able to be honest and close (the analogy being, not having boundaries that are so strict that I never speak to any men ever that are not my husband).

So that's the T you DO want. If your T is saying "We have good chemistry, but there are boundaries here that shouldn't be crossed," and actually seems interested in maintaining those boundaries, THAT IS A GOOD THING.

Second, I actually wasn't really talking so much about sex stuff. My T does that all the time, although he comes from a psychoanalytic orientation so he's more of a "blank slate" than most. A good example would be what happened during the 2008 election. That election was really important to me, and it was on my mind a lot so I sometimes brought it up in therapy. So was an election that happened in my state in 2010. It made me a little anxious sometimes to talk about it, though, because I didn't know my T's political leanings. Initially he didn't come right out with it, because it was important to figure out what it would mean to me. And also, he had to ask himself -- am I bringing myself into the room in order to help Sally, or will this just be adding something that doesn't need to be there and will distract from the substance of what she's bringing up? Eventually, it was clear that if he just came right out and said that he was of the same affiliation as me, it would ease my anxiety and make it easier for me to talk, and not really do much more than that, so it was just the right thing to do, for me specifically.

So I suppose he is "unusually self-aware" in the same way that I am "unusually good at problem-solving", and he is a therapist and I am a scientist. If you asked him, he'd say self-awareness is part of the job description, and having seen lots of therapists in my lifetime, I'd have to agree. That doesn't mean all Ts are self-aware; it means the competent ones are. It's not exactly setting a high bar to expect such a thing. A T who isn't very thoughtful about what he/she is bringing into the room is doing their client a massive disservice. We can argue about whether this is something most Ts do, or whether it's just a few. The point is that if your T *isn't* doing it, you deserve better. And if there's attraction in the room, it becomes an even bigger red flag.

Hey, so like I said, I've been thinking about this, and I'm hoping you won't mind if I ask you a few questions so that it's more of a dialogue. If I've learned anything from being on PC for a while, it's that there's no one-size-fits-all answer to anything!

I feel like any time I've hit a point where I'm thinking I need more from my T with regard to the whole attraction thing, there's kind of two sides of it that need to be addressed (which aren't really separate from each other, but they are at least somewhat distinct): the more pragmatic side (how it will affect my therapy in the most immediate way) and the "tell me about your mother" side (in which the feelings themselves get examined way beyond what any normal person would want to think about them).

You probably know the standard-issue reasons therapists don't talk much about themselves... a lot of it is usually to keep their issues out of the room, so that instead of being like a typical dialogue, the focus is really on you. In addition, a lot of therapists are really interested in seeing what crops up when you fill in the blanks yourself. Sorry if I'm just spouting off stuff you already know.

Anyway this gets even more complicated with romantic/sexual feelings, because even stating those feelings can be misinterpreted as seductive even when they aren't meant to be. So I'd guess a lot of therapists, mine included, become even more cautious than usual because it's a really sensitive area. (And sometimes I get the impression that they are just as uncomfortable as we are, but they get to just sit there and not say anything, which I am frequently pointing out to my T, and it's probably annoying but he can deal .)

That's the "pragmatic" side, I guess -- not wanting to introduce anything extra to an already complicated situation. He may also avoid it in order to see how you fill in the blanks with your transferential feelings. How do you experience his not telling you? Does it feel withholding? Or like punishment? Or like nothing much other than an annoyance? And everyone's favorite question: what does it remind you of from your past experiences?

There could be other reasons, though, that specifically have to do with what he thinks is good for you. Have you asked him why he doesn't say much about it? I imagine that, especially if you frame it the way you did to me, he'd be willing to talk about his reasoning.

For me, for instance -- and this relates to what you said below -- not this T, but another T I saw briefly, pointed out how much I seem to need to take care of other people in my interactions with them (including him). I simply can't filter out their experience, so the more I know, the more it influences my interaction. My current T has often pointed out how quickly I pick up what's going on with him even when he's said nothing at all about it. So for him it's a balancing act: if he doesn't tell me stuff but I know something is up, it can lead to confusion and frustration and ultimately end up hurting me. But if he tells me too much, I can get overwhelmed by it. Poor man certainly earns that insurance check. Anyway, that's one thing about me that I'm sure he factors in when he's thinking about what to disclose.

You know the same thing occurs to me sometimes. This is one of those things, actually, that I don't directly ask my T about. Not that I think he'd answer, but even if he did, this falls under the category of "things I am not sure I want to know". Although it bugs me in the back of my mind, and I probably do talk less than I might otherwise about when and how things are going well with my H, I somehow manage to do it, I think because the nagging doubt that it doesn't bother my T too much is something I can allow to win over long enough for me to say something. But yeah. I think about this too.

Anyway, I guess what I'd say to you then is, what would knowing do for you?How do you envision yourself responding to any given answer? What if it doesn't bother him -- will you feel annoyed and slighted? What if it does bother him -- will it make it even harder for you if you know for sure? Or will having it out in the open make it easier for you to acknowledge it, and move on from it? Only you can really answer these.

It's interesting, I didn't actually know for certain that my T reciprocated some feelings for me (and in reality, I don't really know a lot of detail about them still) until recently. When I'd gotten to a point where I didn't feel like it made a difference if I knew or not. I mean ok, it makes a difference, but overall not really. One day he decided to tell me simply and directly and... nothing happened, guys. We didn't jump into each other's arms and hump like bunnies. Things just went on, especially since deep down I already knew. For me, though, I go through these periods where this evil side to my brain starts dismantling every good thing I believe about myself, and you bet your buns that one thing it used to use against me was the fact that although I *sensed* my T's feelings, I didn't know for sure. Now I can say HA, IN YOUR FACE EVIL BRAIN. But earlier on, it might have introduced a lot of extra angst for us to talk about it so openly. I don't want to turn this into a post entirely about me, but I can be more specific if you like.

Anyway, working with a T I'm attracted to has helped me learn a lot about myself. Most directly, it helped me think more deeply about why I seem to fall in love with every male authority figure who is remotely nice to me, except without running the risk of said male taking advantage of me. But it's helped me think deeply about things I picked up from my parents, and about the nature of my relationship with my husband. I had never realized, for instance, how little I told my H about what I was feeling, and how much he needed for me to say more.

So, my advice to you would be to ask lots of questions, be patient about the answers, and try not to worry too much if things aren't going where you expected them to go. Also, if you haven't already, it helped me a LOT to form relationships with PC people who were struggling with similar things. No one really gets it like someone who's in it! It's different for everyone -- for instance, while it was better for me not to talk too directly about T's feelings, it can be much more beneficial to someone else to be direct right away -- but even the differences can help you figure out more clearly what you need.

Hope this helps!

What an interesting discussion!

SallyBrown, thanks so much for sharing all that. I really enjoyed reading your posts and must say that I relate to your experience and thinking very closely, it's eerie actually. I think that mutual and spoken attraction with a T is not necessarily negative -- in my opinion it depends on the actual situation and participants, each case and person combination is unique. I also have a history of getting attracted to male authority figures... and actually getting involved with them. I even chose a T that fits my pattern out of a few that I researched before I started therapy, and it wasn't unconscious. Apart from knowing that I would most likely trust a person who fits my pattern more than one that does not to speak openly about myself, I had a clear wish that I would finally want to investigate this whole thing in depth in therapy using the transference. I also imagined that my feelings, if they develop, would possibly not remain entirely one sided based on a long chain of past experiences.

My T has not shared feelings for me, but I sense something is up from many subtle reactions. I have not been seeing him for a year yet so it's still fairly new. In my case, I actually like that he's relaxed and does not verbally impose strict boundaries, yes it encourages my feelings but I was interested in exploring these kinds of feelings from start in an analytical way. Am I in danger of something destructive? I don't believe so, but who knows for sure?

I plan to start asking about his feelings but it's an excellent point to ask myself first whether I truly want to know and why that is or isn't the case. I've already figured out a lot over the years by myself, but analyzing the transference is not something that many people are interested in doing in "ordinary" relationships. And if I am able to understand his reactions, that would most likely help me understand how others relate to me. I do want to know that, so why not use therapy for it if possible? Yet at the same time, I also kinda want to keep the mystery of the imagination, and I don't really want to find out that what I suspect is possibly not true. I guess we can say that while I am keenly interested in investigating the repetitive pattern in my life, I don't really want to let go of it fully.

It is great to see that my original post has sparked some discussion, I know that I wrote of emotions and experiences that are difficult to digest if you are struggling with your feelings. That's all. Be there for each other!

I wrote this poem and sent it to my T, after failed attempts to bring my transference issues to center. His discomfort sent me reeling... Even though he has always accepted, applauded and validated my openness. That which is left unsaid is always loudest...

Elephant


I imagine he slips in

Wondering

If we'll ever acknowledged him.

I know its gender by the size of his trunk,

His enormous tusks

That endless stare.

He looms in the corner
(how he fits there, I'll never know... )

How he arrived there to begin with

is still a mystery

Yet, he never leaves.

I wonder too,

If he lingers long after I'm gone

Pondering whether or not we will ever address him

Or, if we'll simply continue pretending

We're alone in the room.

He may listen in

On other sessions throughout your day

But secretly,

I want him all to myself.

My beautiful, massive, and patient elephant.

I will feed him,

Nurture him,

And present him to you

Until you see his worth,

Find his purpose

and embrace his presence

with your gentleness.

Together,

We'll climb upon his back

Travel to unknown

and untouched lands

Gathering all there is to know

and feel,

Giving each riverbank

and hillside a name,

Until we are satisfied we've explored them all.

Only then, will we rest.

Only then, will the elephant move on.

Most people think of harmful therapy as involving some obvious transgression or act. For me it was subtle but insidious emotional seduction, followed by multiple rejections then abandonment. There was a dual relationship but it was hard to spot and almost seemless. This is almost worse because if no overt violation occurs, basically nobody cares.

I could not see clearly when in the middle of it. Too consumed by the euphoria to see that T was leading me into a trap. She had drawn out my deepest longings and was feeding on them.

I think youre misusing the term dual relationship. It usually means that the client and the t have a formal connection outside client-t, like doing their taxes, doing their yardwork, stg like that. Not that the client believes the t is using the client as their own t, or even that there is a romantic relationship between them.

I deliberately used the term in that way to make a point, which is that the client can be exploited (and quite seriously) even if things look legit on the surface.

Please be careful. I never went in looking sexy. We had talk therapy for an hour.
Then he had his way with a virgin 19 yr old for the next hour. He stalked me. He wrote scripts only for opioids.

So. Come on to anyone but your T or Pdoc. I had decades of degradation
Sexual abuse and pain. Predators do exist.

I dont understand what youre saying. My point was just that If a dual relationship exists, it is by definition NOT legit according to vanilla ethical standards.