[Loco4]

Hi all,

I know t has a boyfriend as she had to clarify she was currently in a heterosexual relationship after she disclosed she had been in a long term same sex relationship and I thought she meant that it was current. Anyway I'm a queer female experiencing romantic feelings for my t.

Ever since I found out she has a boyfriend I've felt kind of jealous. I was a bit thrown that she was in a heterosexual relationship as she really gives a queer vibe, so at first I was just kind of disappointed. Now I find myself thinking about what her boyfriend and what he Is like.

Lately I've felt really jealous that he gets to love her, and have her love him. Also on occasions I get jealous that he's sleeping with her...

I'm not going to tell t as talking about the transference was embarrassing and hard, and we've just moved away from that. I had gotten over my feelings and we've been able to get to a really caring and productive space. I'm worried bringing this up will makes things awkward again.

How can I stop myself from thinking about this? After all she is just my t and a damn good one at that. She deserves some happiness in her life, and I know that it will never be my place to provide that...

Arggh

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[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Loco4

Hi all,

I know t has a boyfriend as she had to clarify she was currently in a heterosexual relationship after she disclosed she had been in a long term same sex relationship and I thought she meant that it was current. Anyway I'm a queer female experiencing romantic feelings for my t.

Ever since I found out she has a boyfriend I've felt kind of jealous. I was a bit thrown that she was in a heterosexual relationship as she really gives a queer vibe, so at first I was just kind of disappointed. Now I find myself thinking about what her boyfriend and what he Is like.

Lately I've felt really jealous that he gets to love her, and have her love him. Also on occasions I get jealous that he's sleeping with her...

I'm not going to tell t as talking about the transference was embarrassing and hard, and we've just moved away from that. I had gotten over my feelings and we've been able to get to a really caring and productive space. I'm worried bringing this up will makes things awkward again.

How can I stop myself from thinking about this? After all she is just my t and a damn good one at that. She deserves some happiness in her life, and I know that it will never be my place to provide that...

Arggh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't believe it's possible to stop yourself from thinking or feeling a certain way. People can repress or suppress their thoughts and feelings for some time but they can't make them go away. Thoughts and feelings are energies and when they are suppressed they get stored in the body and become so toxic overtime that they eventually turn into diseases or they find unhealthy, destructive ways to express themselves. One example of this would be a passive-aggressive behavior when the person doesn't allow themselves to feel their anger or even to be aware of the anger but instead lets the anger to come out in destructive ways.

Whatever you are feeling, the best thing to do is to accept the feeling without a judgment and allow it to be. Then, it needs to be processed meaning completely understood if you want it not to cause you problems. Find time for yourself to be alone and to reflect on your jealousy. Ask yourself what it means for you that your T has a bf and what it would mean if she didn't. If you would like to have a partner like your T, ask yourself why and what would that kind of partnership give you that is important to you. You may want to write down your reflections in a journal.

Use your jealousy as an opportunity to learn more about yourself, because, after all, I believe that everything that happens to us is an opportunity to learn more about ourselves and our true needs.

Ideally, this kind of work is to be done with your therapist, but I am skeptical of how effective it could be if you do it with the same person who is the object of your attraction despite what traditional therapy suggests. This type of analysis requires the impartiality from the practitioner and if they are on the receiving end of the strong feelings from the client, they are in no position to be impartial no matter what the profession claims. That's just my opinion.

[BudFox]

I have a hard time seeing how being in this scenario is therapeutic or healthy. And even if the client takes this feeling to another therapist, I can't see how that is necessarily going to help, other than just having someone to vent to. In my case, doing self therapy, reflection also led nowhere. People have needs. Therapy provokes those needs better than just about anything else. Logically, perhaps it is better not to provoke deep needs if they are going to be frustrated by design. It's pretty cruel.

I relate to the OP's predicament. Therapy can feel like you are having an actual intimate relationship. This naturally triggers feelings of jealousy. And then the client made to feel guilty or weird about this, as if they brought it about.

My experience was that having such intimacy with a therapist led directly to the intense feelings. And then there was crushing heartbreak, crushing frustration, crushing jealously, and crushing obsession.

Of course my own personal history had much to do with it, but still the feelings were a product of therapy!

[Ididitmyway]

Well, I think, the feelings may be a product of both therapy and personal history, historical wounds being a condition and therapy situation being a trigger. They could work together and aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Since the therapy situation is what it is, there is little one can do about it except to understand how it triggers them and to decide if they need to allow themselves to continue being triggered.

As far as historical foundation for feeling one way or another in every relationship, exploring it helped me tremendously both in terms of protecting myself and getting my needs met as much as they could under the specific conditions.

Whether one sees this type of exploration as "self-blame" or an opportunity for growth is an individual choice and, of course, it somewhat depends on how this is presented and with what kind of intention. I can definitively tell that I have no intention to imply that unpleasant or hurtful feelings in therapy is the client's creation and that therapy situation has nothing to do with it. As someone who has been harmed by therapy process, I would never imply that. What I am saying is different but, unfortunately, it gets misunderstood by many people over and over again, no matter how many times I try to explain it.

What I am saying is that the internal processes that get triggered in us by therapy are part of us and have always been before we started therapy. Now, that is NOT to say that therapy process can't harm because it certainly can. It's just to say that the workings of the system and how it affects people belong to the system, but the inner world and inner processes of each individual belong to that individual. Who owns what has to be clearly separated to avoid the whole blame game no matter who is blamed.

I am not coming from the position of blaming anyone. My intention is to understand and to separate what belongs to whom without applying any moral judgment. This attitude is the main reason why my explorations of my own processes do the opposite of self-blame, they make me feel empowered. The more I can understand about myself and the more of my inner dynamics I can own the more empowered I feel. I know others who take the same attitude and who feel empowered from understanding how their histories impact their feelings, behaviors and worldviews.

As to whether it's therapeutic to stay in the situation when someone who is supposed to counsel you is also an object of your strong attraction, I feel the same way as you do. It wouldn't be therapeutic for me right now and I would never stay in that situation after what I've learned from my experience. But I usually refrain from giving others advice to do the same. I don't know everything that's going on in OP's therapy and what she is getting out of it and so I am not in a position to see what is good for her. I trust that she will determine it for herself.

[CriesAndGoodbyes]

Wow, first of all, to Loco4, I completely understand why the situation would make you feel jealous. My T is currently single but occasionally goes out on dates. I required an emergency weekend session about two weeks ago and when I saw him, he had just come from dinner... boy was he looking sharp and I just wanted a piece of that SO bad... I wound up wondering who he was out to dinner with, whether or not it was a date or with friends. I Presumed it was a date because the charm was laid on thick in his appearance. Of course I may have just been imagining that part because I am not used to seeing my T during personal hours and while I've seen that shirt before... something about him just looked and felt different. Anyway, needless to say, I felt jealous. I ached so bad to be the girl that I imagined he had just been out to dinner with. I longed to be the one he was pursuing and pretty much would have done anything for that to be the case.

IDidItMyWay - I really appreciate your point of view, it does seem to only make sense that those things would be easier addressed with another therapist. I tried to do that but I found it was not helpful at all in my case. It could have been the therapist I tried to do it with, she was a female and seemed far too judgmental. I walked away from every session with the impression that she thought I was delusional for developing such strong feelings for my T and in some ways I also felt she blamed me for it. So I guess it's also crucial to make sure you choose wisely when you pick someone else to work through these things with. Because I believe you're right, the therapist that you have these feelings about could never possibly be truly impartial but at the same time, discussing it with the object of those affections is also tempting but I don't think that many of them can handle it well. I don't think it's their job to crush those feelings, I honestly think it's their job to allow us to explore the depth of those feelings in an environment where nothing crushes that fantasy until it has matured into an experience we can learn from. I'm reading a fascinating book on that very topic at the moment.

BudFox - I am with you, if I didn't need therapy to get out of the mess I am in, I would be completely against it. I think it is inherently flawed to induce and seduce feelings and emotions and intimacy out of an object/subject, just for the sole purpose of rubbing it in their faces that those feelings mean nothing, quite likely aren't even real and that they can never have you. It does show an element of sadism if you ask me. I mean seriously, why make me need you and want you so bad only to crush me? Is trading my previous problems for this... really any better? I am not so sure. In most cases, I would say no... but in my case, I sadly did need this but I could have done without all the extra complications and I genuinely believe there were ways to protect me from this aspect. Why not an initial speech about how entering therapy puts us at risk of developing transference/feelings and explain to us that never, under any circumstances, can this relationship turn into a romantic or even platonic relationship outside of therapy, regular check-in's to make sure we aren't keeping secrets about how we feel and fostering and feeding feelings like that, etc. But maybe it' just wishful thinking that that would prevent things.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

IDidItMyWay - I really appreciate your point of view, it does seem to only make sense that those things would be easier addressed with another therapist.

It may or may not. My point was not that it absolutely has to be addressed with another therapist but that it doesn't make sense to address it with the same person they have feelings for. How one goes about it and whether they decide to go to another therapist for help or do it in other ways is their choice.

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

I tried to do that but I found it was not helpful at all in my case. It could have been the therapist I tried to do it with, she was a female and seemed far too judgmental. ..So I guess it's also crucial to make sure you choose wisely when you pick someone else to work through these things with.

Sure. Simply seeing another therapist for this is not a guarantee that it will be worked through because you never know who you will bump into. Besides, I've noticed that therapists in general are reluctant to explore what went on in the client's previous therapy. It's some sort of fear to learn that their colleagues might've done something wrong. This is one of the biggest blunders therapists make when they are not interested in what kind of experience in therapy the client had previously or when they are dismissive of it. This happened to me as well. My subsequent therapists would always validate my experience in my previous therapy, they didn't judge me as delusional or anything like that, but I could see clearly that they didn't want to talk about it.

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

Because I believe you're right, the therapist that you have these feelings about could never possibly be truly impartial but at the same time, discussing it with the object of those affections is also tempting but I don't think that many of them can handle it well.

Nope, they can't. I've heard some stories, including on this forum, about therapists who handled it well but even in those cases people are still experiencing those feelings and may be even more intensely than ever after the confession.

But, frankly, why should anyone to be put in the position to handle them as this is the most unnatural thing to do? How can you possibly "handle" someone's sexual attraction for you or their idealization or admiration of you except just not taking advantage of that?

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

I don't think it's their job to crush those feelings

I am not sure what you mean by "crushing". If you mean to stop those feeling, I think it's just common sense that therapists can't stop them and I don't think anyone expects them to.

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

I honestly think it's their job to allow us to explore the depth of those feelings in an environment where nothing crushes that fantasy until it has matured into an experience we can learn from.

I really didn't understand what you mean by "crushing that fantasy" until it matured into "an experience we can learn from". What fantasy? What experience? And how does a fantasy mature into an experience we can learn from? Can you explain?

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

if I didn't need therapy to get out of the mess I am in, I would be completely against it.

So it did help you get out of the mess you were in? I have similar feelings. I would've surrendered my license by now if my therapy hadn't helped me in some important ways. That's why I am not an "abolitionist" when it comes to therapy but rather a reformist. I do believe that therapy practice needs major reforms and the whole mental health system needs an overhaul, but I don't believe in abolishing it all together because, as flawed as it is, many people seem to get some benefits from it, and for many of them it may be the only reason they are still alive. If many people want to continue to receive this service their will cannot be overruled by the will of those who want to abolish it. It's fine and it's necessary to point out the flaws of the system but to insist that it has to be abolished because of those flaws is to insult many people who feel that the process is giving them something important that they couldn't get anywhere else. Just like the denial of the systemic flaws invalidates the experiences of those who have been harmed by the system, the assertion that the practice of therapy should be banned invalidates the experiences of those who experience their therapy as mostly helpful or even somewhat helpful. That's why there are so many fights and clashes on this forum. It's because some people seem to believe that their individual experiences enable them to see the whole picture and to make a final judgment of whether something has the right to exist.

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

I think it is inherently flawed to induce and seduce feelings and emotions and intimacy out of an object/subject, just for the sole purpose of rubbing it in their faces that those feelings mean nothing, quite likely aren't even real and that they can never have you.

Absolutely. That's why it is my belief that therapy shouldn't be support/validation/"relationship" based. I don't even think that the word "therapy" or "psychotherapy" is a legitimate word to use because it equates the whole practice with medicine while it doesn't have the precision and the certainty of medical practice. I'd use the word "consulting" which makes the whole thing much less personal and much more professional. And I'd make the work around specific issues that need to be resolved, not around discussing the "relationship".

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

It does show an element of sadism if you ask me.

It certainly does in some cases. In my first therapy, that was exactly the case. My T was getting sadistic pleasure out of seeing me vulnerable and paralized by strong transference. With other therapists, however, there was nothing sadistic about how they handled it but the intensity of transference was still present and wan't making me feel better.

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

I mean seriously, why make me need you and want you so bad only to crush me? Is trading my previous problems for this... really any better? I am not so sure. In most cases, I would say no... but in my case, I sadly did need this but I could have done without all the extra complications and I genuinely believe there were ways to protect me from this aspect. Why not an initial speech about how entering therapy puts us at risk of developing transference/feelings and explain to us that never, under any circumstances, can this relationship turn into a romantic or even platonic relationship outside of therapy, regular check-in's to make sure we aren't keeping secrets about how we feel and fostering and feeding feelings like that, etc. But maybe it' just wishful thinking that that would prevent things.

I agree that the profession does a lousy job of informing people about what therapy process entails and, I suspect, it kind of benefits them in some ways to keep people uninformed. That's why I created my website in an attempt to remedy this situation at least to some extend. I, however, would propose not only to inform consumers about the potential harm of transference, but to take it further and to re-structure the whole process in the way that it would greatly minimize the possibility of transference emergence.

[thesnowqueen]

I was (am) jealous of everything when it comes to my (now deceased) T. His family, his friends, his other patients, the inanimate objects surrounding him. And also of his skills, abilities, gifts, powers, social circles etc etc.

Discussing transference with him was quite complex. It brought about another intimacy to the relationship which was gratifying but perhaps also destructive (still a professional relationship etc). I think it made a difference to me that he did not feel at all offended by it and that he did not judge me any worse a person for it. I think this lead me to be able to accept this aspect of myself. (I have a history of obsessive-type transference). He questioned my insistence that someone infatuated was necessarily inferior to whoever he/she was infatuated with. The idea that such feelings rendered me worthless was definitely weakened.

I think a T who can hear a patient discussing these feelings and NEITHER encourage them (which would be seductive) NOR reject the client by expressing any condemnation or aversion, would be handling the situation very well.

There are drawbacks and disadvantages and troubling aspects to transference but on the whole this therapeutic relationship DID save my life. So, I appreciate IDidItMyWay's perspective - one which appreciates the destructive potential here - but also the beneficial aspects.

[BudFox]

CriesAndGoodbyes: Interesting that you mention sadism. This is a word that has come up for me a lot lately when reflecting on my last long term therapist.. I plan to update the Yelp review I wrote, and was going to use that very word to convey the cruelty of the experience.

Confusingly though, it was probably not intentional. More like a child wielding a powerful weapon she did not understand. However, probably a lot of semi-conscious seduction (another key word for me, that you also mention) and provocation. When the client is obsessing or longing for the therapist, the focus is always on what is driving the client. Meanwhile the therapist might well be fueling the whole thing with her/his own insatiable needs. My T was practically giddy at times from my adoration and desire for her.

As for initial speeches about transference, etc. I've never been given this sort of informed consent with any of the 20 or so therapists I have tried or worked with.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

When the client is obsessing or longing for the therapist, the focus is always on what is driving the client. Meanwhile the therapist might well be fueling the whole thing with her/his own insatiable needs. My T was practically giddy at times from my adoration and desire for her.

No doubt about it. My first T was also getting a kick out of my transference and fueled it intentionally with mixed messages, which is emotional abuse plain and simple.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

As to whether it's therapeutic to stay in the situation when someone who is supposed to counsel you is also an object of your strong attraction, I feel the same way as you do. It wouldn't be therapeutic for me right now and I would never stay in that situation after what I've learned from my experience. But I usually refrain from giving others advice to do the same.

Yea I dont like to give advice either, and was just making a general comment. OP's situation might be more tolerable.

Here's the thing though. Being with a T that you are obsessing over might not be healthy, but if you have formed a strong attachment or dependency, then stopping might not be healthy either. This is one of the things I REALLY resent about my last therapy -- being put in that position. I had to choose between continuing to have my heart crushed and be tormented and humiliated, or end it and suffer abandonment type trauma and anguish.

And the worst scenario is when the client is lured into this kind of situation, AND dares to express their true feelings, AND then is terminated by the therapist for having done so. Or, even if the client leaves voluntarily because disclosing their feelings has made the whole thing unbearable, it's about the same.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Yea I dont like to give advice either, and was just making a general comment. OP's situation might be more tolerable.

Here's the thing though. Being with a T that you are obsessing over might not be healthy, but if you have formed a strong attachment or dependency, then stopping might not be healthy either. This is one of the things I REALLY resent about my last therapy -- being put in that position. I had to choose between continuing to have my heart crushed and be tormented and humiliated, or end it and suffer abandonment type trauma and anguish.

And the worst scenario is when the client is lured into this kind of situation, AND dares to express their true feelings, AND then is terminated by the therapist for having done so. Or, even if the client leaves voluntarily because disclosing their feelings has made the whole thing unbearable, it's about the same.

I know. The way all those "therapeutic relationships", attachments and obsessions are handled by many therapists are horrible. There is nothing therapeutic about it. Many factors contribute into that: lack of knowledge of trauma, dogmatic training that confuses theories with scientific foundation, lack of transparency and public education, lack of screening for those entering the profession and so on..

[Loco4]

Hi all,

Really appreciate your responses and glad I started a convo.

Navigating transference can be really difficult. Like I said I've spoken to T about my feelings, and we've concluded feelings are right or wrong they just simply are.

I can work fine with my T and my romantic feelings have significantly diminished. For me the key is to remember to not deny or overindulge my feelings. Just simply let them be.

Sometimes I hate the label of transference. Therapy is intimate, and could I not just legitimately love T. Does it have to be some representation of my past or could it just be a totally human reaction to intimacy.

I think T would agree that as long as I don't have an delusions that boundaries will be crossed and that I'm not consumed by these thoughts, that they are perfectly natural and human.

We do a lot of inner child work so there is an emphasis on connecting to T. What has helped me is the remind myself that, therapy is my space to have Whatever feelings arise.

My inner child has the opportunity to love and feel loved in that space. Outside of that though is off limits, and I can live with that!


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[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Loco4

Hi all,

Really appreciate your responses and glad I started a convo.

Navigating transference can be really difficult. Like I said I've spoken to T about my feelings, and we've concluded feelings are right or wrong they just simply are.

I can work fine with my T and my romantic feelings have significantly diminished. For me the key is to remember to not deny or overindulge my feelings. Just simply let them be.

Sometimes I hate the label of transference. Therapy is intimate, and could I not just legitimately love T. Does it have to be some representation of my past or could it just be a totally human reaction to intimacy.

I think T would agree that as long as I don't have an delusions that boundaries will be crossed and that I'm not consumed by these thoughts, that they are perfectly natural and human.

We do a lot of inner child work so there is an emphasis on connecting to T. What has helped me is the remind myself that, therapy is my space to have Whatever feelings arise.

My inner child has the opportunity to love and feel loved in that space. Outside of that though is off limits, and I can live with that!


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Sounds like you know how to deal with your feelings.

[Loco4]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Sounds like you know how to deal with your feelings.

Sometimes I can, sometimes they get the best of me.

It's pretty uncomfortable to think of T having sex with her boyfriend and feeling jealous/angry. I guess when I originally posted I was feeling shameful for even having those thoughts..

Having slept on it I guess I can see it a bit more clearly. It's still a maze though

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[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Loco4

Hi all,

Sometimes I hate the label of transference. Therapy is intimate, and could I not just legitimately love T. Does it have to be some representation of my past or could it just be a totally human reaction to intimacy.

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Seems to me like its always much more complicated. And though I use the word transference I hardly mean its just a projection. I do think I genuinely love him and transference is just a factor in this. Transference adds the intensity...

I read this novel in which a character points out that the most effective way of eliciting love is to take someone pain away. So I think love is inevitable...

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Besides, I've noticed that therapists in general are reluctant to explore what went on in the client's previous therapy. It's some sort of fear to learn that their colleagues might've done something wrong. This is one of the biggest blunders therapists make when they are not interested in what kind of experience in therapy the client had previously or when they are dismissive of it.

That was my experience and it's part of what turned me off therapy. None of the therapists I tried were interested in really digging into the suffering I went thru in therapy. They only wanted to talk about what it meant. Was like reaching a dead end. One guy got aggressively hostile about it.

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

But, frankly, why should anyone to be put in the position to handle them as this is the most unnatural thing to do? How can you possibly "handle" someone's sexual attraction for you or their idealization or admiration of you except just not taking advantage of that?

And yet it seems to happen all the time. And most clients are encouraged to talk about it, work through it, and all the other cliches. Sounds like OP is navigating it ok though, so maybe it's partly a question of intensity and circumstances. For me it was ruinous. Like a malignant emotional tumor.

[CriesAndGoodbyes]

Hello everyone, yeah, I wasn't attempting to give advice either. Just making observations and expressing how things are for me but of course things are different for others and we all have our own intuition and get to choose what is best for ourselves. Every situation is different and the right choice for one, would be the wrong choice for another. So I strongly believe everyone needs to feel it out for themselves.

Ididitmyway - I agree, it is unnatural to do but I'd still like to believe that some people are capable of that kind of impartial response to ones feelings. Maybe it's wishful thinking because I really want my T to explore my feelings for him with me... like deeply. By "Crushing" - I meant that sometimes a therapist will stifle the patients feelings in such a way that the patient is no longer able to explore them. I.e. a therapist who immediately tells the client that those feelings aren't real or aren't acceptable or anything else like that because the patient will then immediately attempt to start shutting those feelings down, without having first explored what the feelings could mean.

For example, my falling in love with my therapist has taught me that I have been settling for too little in my own personal and romantic life. If he had immediately condemned me for having those feelings, when I confessed them, he may well have prevented me from figuring that part out. I kept mine a secret for a long time but never really learned much from it until after I told my therapist about it. However there are also many schools of thought that believe that both the therapist and patient can (if they are comfortable) explore transference and counter-transference feelings openly and honestly in session. I.e. those schools of though also suggest that if the therapist is having counter-transference feelings, that they should be able to, within the construct of the therapeutic relationship and of course with the good of the patient in mind, share those feelings as well. I'm currently reading a book on that very topic about an incredibly open therapist who believed it was better to tell her clients how she really felt, rather than to hide behind a mask of "Blank screen" and pretend she felt nothing. Her thought on the matter was that it would be more confusing to the client, who can tell and sense things, if she chose to just lie about her feelings and pretend they weren't there. She in effect adopted and adapted a way of using her counter-transference as somewhat of a barometer and gauge in the therapeutic relationship, to assess various things and learn more about the client. Because feelings are a two way street... the therapist has to be open enough to look honestly at themselves and see whether or not they were the one that started the transfer/counter-transference matrix within the therapeutic relationship.

It's a complex book with a multitude of examples but I have to say, while risky, I think her approach in skilled hands would have been a very beneficial approach to take with me. I mean... would it kill him (My T) to tell me something about how he feels about me??? You cannot keep highlighting every single thing we have in common and not have a reason for doing so, especially when it appears that we have literally everything in common and you know the girl is in love with you and just keep driving the stake deeper. Not that I think he is doing any of this from a torturous perspective, I honestly believe he is just a great guy, with great intentions and that he may be confused about things himself but perhaps it's just wishful thinking that he likes me too? After all, we all see what we want to see and we all walk in our own reality and no one person's reality is the whole truth or how things really are... it's actually a combination of the perceived reality of every one involved and that is the only truth out there.

I really appreciated your input on things and I think your ideas sound pretty great. I most definitely wasn't saying that therapy shouldn't be allowed for anyone, I said if I didn't need it, I would be against it. Emphasis on the word "I" - and when I said I would be against it, I meant for myself, not for anyone else. We're all entitled to use whatever resources we need to help ourselves and to heal ourselves. I would never in a million years suggest that therapy should be outlawed or anything like that, I believe it's very useful in countless ways for countless people. I just wanted to clear that up in case somehow it came across that I implied that therapy should be banned. I sincerely apologize if that was how it came across.

BudFox - Yeah, seduction is a word that really came to mind when I thought of the way my therapist interacted with me as well. It really did strike me as so seductive and suggestive... but I guess I was wrong... or so he implied.... he didn't tell me outright that he didn't like me... but he took the more diplomatic approach of telling me that he makes a pact with himself not to see female patients that way... I am really glad his let down was fairly gentle. When I use the word sadistic to describe my therapy, I only mean it because he still does things that makes me think he likes me and therefore it feels a bit like torture. All unintentional, I am sure.

Thesnowqueen - That's a really interesting thing you mention about that book you read, that sounds like a cool book. If I were to add my own spin to it, I would also add that in my opinion, love is also the most effective way to take someone's pain away. Just speaking from my personal experience because I know in my case, if I had not mistakenly thought he loved me, I would not have healed to the degree that I have.

[Ididitmyway]

Thanks for the elaborate response CriesAndGoodbuys.

No need to apologize. I am glad you cleared some things up but I didn't have any negative feelings about your previous post anyway. Your latest post is very thoughtful. A few things poped up in my mind as I was reading about your need for your T to be open with you about how he feels about you. It'll take me a bit of time to articulate them. I tend to reflect deeply on things and words don't come easy when you try to pull them from a deeper place. So, talk later. Again, thanks for the elaborate explanation.

[CriesAndGoodbyes]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Thanks for the elaborate response CriesAndGoodbuys.

No need to apologize. I am glad you cleared some things up but I didn't have any negative feelings about your previous post anyway. Your latest post is very thoughtful. A few things poped up in my mind as I was reading about your need for your T to be open with you about how he feels about you. It'll take me a bit of time to articulate them. I tend to reflect deeply on things and words don't come easy when you try to pull them from a deeper place. So, talk later. Again, thanks for the elaborate explanation.

Wow, well I'd love any input you have, so if you come to a place where you can articulate them, let me know. Feel free to PM me if you would rather talk there. Whatever you prefer.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

BudFox - Yeah, seduction is a word that really came to mind when I thought of the way my therapist interacted with me as well. It really did strike me as so seductive and suggestive... but I guess I was wrong... or so he implied.... he didn't tell me outright that he didn't like me... but he took the more diplomatic approach of telling me that he makes a pact with himself not to see female patients that way... I am really glad his let down was fairly gentle. When I use the word sadistic to describe my therapy, I only mean it because he still does things that makes me think he likes me and therefore it feels a bit like torture. All unintentional, I am sure.

I dunno, seems to me if it feels seductive, it is seductive, regardless of the rationalizations offered by the therapist. I think what some therapists are missing or have forgotten is that the basic arrangement of therapy is seductive. They are (or appear to be) empathic, understanding, selfless, etc. They make direct eye contact. They listen to your problems and pain. It's intimate, just the two of you. If the therapist adds to that by doing something that is even vaguely seductive in a more concrete way, not hard to imagine the effect.

As for unintentional, I would not assume a therapist necessarily has enough self awareness to know what sort of subtle messages they are sending, or how their normal therapist persona is being perceived by clients. It's easy to pin it all on client transference. Not so easy to acknowledge that they might be fueling the fire.

[HAL_9000]

The first thing my therapist told me after I confessed my feelings and attraction to her was: "We never could, can or will have a relationship like that". There wasn't exploration nor did she let me have the feelings. That happened the session after I told her how I feel. I felt like I was castrated. I didn't buy it at the start, I asked why is it 'unethical' - no answer. The next session she told me she's seeing someone! Like - Listen we never could can will blabla but just so you know I have a boyfriend so you can even be jealous now, how good for you. The next session I got out of her that she's not attracted to me and after that I had to leave. She was grooming me emotionally just to pull the rug from under my feet. I felt humiliated, used, weak, hopeless.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by HAL_9000

The first thing my therapist told me after I confessed my feelings and attraction to her was: "We never could, can or will have a relationship like that". There wasn't exploration nor did she let me have the feelings. That happened the session after I told her how I feel. I felt like I was castrated. I didn't buy it at the start, I asked why is it 'unethical' - no answer. The next session she told me she's seeing someone! Like - Listen we never could can will blabla but just so you know I have a boyfriend so you can even be jealous now, how good for you. The next session I got out of her that she's not attracted to me and after that I had to leave. She was grooming me emotionally just to pull the rug from under my feet. I felt humiliated, used, weak, hopeless.

That is horrible. My experience was similar, except that I knew my therapist was married. And she was not so cold-hearted, tried to be nice about rejecting me. In a way that was more confusing. Benevolent tormentor. The effect was the same though -- humiliated, used, weak, hopeless, and more.

Making a client feel jealous, frustrated, rejected, humiliated by seducing and coaxing them, then reminding them that their feelings and needs will never be gratified… it's presumed to have therapeutic potential. But it's really just abusive. It violates the principle of first do no harm.

[CriesAndGoodbyes]

Hal 9000, by any chance would you be willing to share how and in what way, that you feel your therapist was grooming you? Also were there things she said or did that you made you feel like the feelings were mutual? (That she liked you too?)

You do not have to answer any of this if you're not comfortable and if you'd like to tell me, but rather keep it private, feel free to PM me. I'd love to talk to you.

[HAL_9000]

Originally Posted by CriesAndGoodbyes

Hal 9000, by any chance would you be willing to share how and in what way, that you feel your therapist was grooming you? Also were there things she said or did that you made you feel like the feelings were mutual? (That she liked you too?)

The session before I shared my feelings was the most telling one. She was subtly provoking me to do it. She was also very attractive that night - makeup and beautifully dressed. I say night because my sessions were the last of day. I don't think I can point to anything that she did overtly that made me think she likes me too. It has been one year since I left therapy and I still feel the same despair.