Is it rape or assault or what? I dont know.

So here's the story.

My friend, I'll call him J., and I have a history. We are in college, he is 22 and I am 23. Shortly after I met him I developed feelings for him, but more importantly, we had a ridiculous sexual chemistry together. So we made out a couple times and a little more, never had sex.

He got a girlfriend, but would always still talk to me about how I am the best kisser and the best at other things, etc. The dynamic of our situation, though.... in the first place, he pretty much provoked the strongest lust I have ever had for someone in my entire life. I am normally not outgoing, or bold, but the amount I wanted him had always made me very bold. So he would talk to me about these things, and eventually, we would make out despite his having a girlfriend.

This happened many times. Also, I started a thing with another guy, but it didn't become official until we were dating for 10 months. So I was free and clear to do other things, and finally, after a year of mine and J.'s extreme sexual tension, we had sex. Once. I was also having sex regularly with D.

That was the back story, now to the present. Its been a couple weeks of me and D. being official. We are so honest with each other and he knows about my history with J. Him and J. have become roommates. They live in the same house.

Last night I was over. D got horribly drunk and made a fool of himself and me and I wasn't happy. I was going to sleep on the couch. The whole time J was trying to get me to sleep with him while D was off making a drunken fool of himself. He kept saying his door would be open. Me and D talked, but I was still upset, so J came out of his room to talk to me. He sat on a different couch than the one I was laying on.

We talked, and eventually, per usual, he talked about us. He told me that when he is with his girlfriend he fantasizes about me. We have always had undeniable chemistry, but this was the first instance we had an opportunity for anything since me and D have been together. J asked me what I was thinking, and asked me to name my top three thoughts.

I said, "I am not going to cheat on D" and he was like, "What are the other two? I asked for three." and I said, "I dont want to cheat on D. I dont want to cheat on D." and he was like, "alright..." but then he leaned over and kissed me to try and persuade me... I was weak and didn't stop him.

He was then like, "Well, what if I come over there with something hanging out... and you can just do what you do?" and I was like, "I dont want to cheat on D." but he came over anyway, with his d*ck out. He pretty much begs me to just give him a blow job, and as i am laying down on the couch, his d*ck is right in my face.

I was like, "No, I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I dont want to cheat on D. I can't." and his d*ck is pretty much touching my face. He leans down again and kisses me and touches me, trying to convince me, knowing that in our history I have had zero resolve and cannot resist him. Well, I assured D I wasn't going to cheat on him. And I was planning on keeping my word.

J's d*ck was in my face, and he was touching me, and i turned my head and it was right there, and in my weakness I put it in my mouth, but only for a second. I turned my head and was like, "No! I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. No. I can't." but he proceeds to kiss me, touch my breasts, and keep his d*ck in my face with his hands on my head. He was starting to get really aggressive. The whole time he was saying, "I did it for you! I did it for you!" saying that he cheated on his girlfriend for me, so I should cheat for him.

I end up putting it in my mouth for at most two seconds one or two more times. He keeps trying to kiss me, but at that point I had more resolve, and turned my head away. I told him no. He was like, "Ok, i'm not going to kiss you" and leaned down and kissed my forehead goodnight. But then he tried to kiss me again and I turned away, and he was like, "Ok, ok." put his thumbs together and put them over my mouth to show he wasn't going to kiss me and kissed my forehead... and then tried kissing me again... I turned my head again, and he kissed my forehead for the last time. He went around the couch to go back to his room and thats when D came out of his and went to the bathroom, J went back to his room, D came out of the bathroom and my jacket was on and I had my purse in my hand and i was like, "I have to leave. I have to leave." he asked why and I was like, "I have to leave. I have to leave." he said he wouldn't let me and stood in my way, and asked me why again and i just kept repeating. "I have to leave. I have to leave." and he stepped aside and opened the door for me, and I walked out and didn't even look at him.

I told him today. He's having a bit of a hard time with it. They are fraternity brothers on top of being really good friends and roommates, so its really hard for him. I told one person today who said it was rape and I was like, "No no no no no. I was still the one that opened my mouth. No no no no no." And I dont really know what to do. I have been anxious and nauseated all day. I dont really know what to do.

Thanks for reading this.

Why didnt you get up and go to your boyfriend or just leave by the sound of it I dont get the impression he would of forced you to stay.

No, it wasn't rape. I agree with Tishie that you should have just removed yourself from this J's presence.
Patty

Hi Julie,
I actually disagree with the other 2 posts.I do think you were assaulted. Whether or not it fits the legal definition of "rape", the feelings and the emotional impact are similar. I'm sure there's other factors that contribute to your emotional response, but a.) you were touched against your will, b.) your "no" was not respected. You said no, and he kept pushing your boundaries. The other posts said that you could have removed yourself from the situation-- well, I suppose that's true, but that also sounds like a lesser example of "blaming the victim." No means no, and he should have taken no for an answer and left it at that. Yes, you "opened your mouth" but was it due to fear, due to his consistent badgering, due to normal muscle movements, or due to the true desire to suck his d*ck? It's difficult to know, and it's probably not exclusively one thing. It doesn't sound like he shoved his d*ck down your throat but he was trying to coerce you into giving in. This was not consensual-- consent is not defined by an absense of no (which you did say, by the way) but by the presence of a yes (which you never said). A yes that is obtained through coercion or manipulation is NOT true consent-- it's mere compliance. The courts don't recognize this and it's hard to measure, but its a concept that sexual assault crisis service programs adhere to. I'd recommend getting in touch with your local program (you could probably find out the # through the school) for some emotional support (of course your therapist and pdoc, if you have one). Good luck.

Sam

Well, as soon as Juliebean saw this fella coming toward her with his **** hanging out, why did she not remove herself? She is and has been playing with fire, burning the stick at both ends. Histrionic comes to mind in the way she has related this incident. Yes, NO means NO, but something doesn't ring true about being a "victim" here.
Patty

I sorta see everyone's point.

I didn't see him coming with it hanging out because the room was completely dark besides the outside streetlamps. I was fighting my own urge to give in, we have always had a mutual and explosive chemistry, and the whole time he said, "I did it for you" so not only was I battling with my own feelings, I was battling a sort of feeling of obligation toward him. And I was still mad and disgusted by my boyfriend, and that is why I didn't call for him or go to him. But I did hold up my "no" for the entire thing, and from the complete getgo.

I still felt completely violated when I left, and had a panic attack when I got home. I was anxious and nauseated all day yesterday, and I am still severly anxious today.

I dont want to know for legal reasons; I dont plan on pressing charges. I just want to know that what I am feeling isn't for no reason.

i think your feelings are valid, whether it is considered "rape" or not.

((((( JulieBean ))))))

I'm sorry you are going through some strong anxiety over this situation. I'm sure your mind is going in a lot of different directions and your feelings are from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Fighting our attraction feelings for someone, when we do know right from wrong, but that attraction is so darned strong is really hard. He certainly didn't make it any easier for you and I do have to say, you didn't make it easier for yourself either. I think this is probably a two way situation here.

While I do agree that NO is NO, if he was a decent individual, he would have backed off on the first NO and gone his merry way. I think what he did shows you he has no concern for anyone but himself....and that also tells me that attraction or no attraction, get the heck away from him and stay away. If he does this to you, he does it to others and believe me, it would not be a healthy or happy relationship that would be born of this.

I wonder if some of your anxiety is born of feeling badly for having those attraction feelings as strong as they are and almost giving in to them while being exclusive with your boyfriend? Maybe your mind is going through lots of "what if" scenarios too? I think that if you sit down and analyze your feelings and thoughts it may help bring you to a calmer place. That doesn't mean kicking yourself for anything...it just means coming to a conclusion about your actions/feelings/thoughts so that you can plan how you will act the next time you see him or are in this kind of situation again.

I hope you feel better soon......Take good care!


sabby

By the sound of things, J stands for Jerk.

Sometimes we're hyper-attracted to people with glaring character flaws. It happens.

I don't think this guy belongs in your life.

well said, slothrop!

julie - i hope you come back to let us know how you're going.

Thank you all for your supportive comments. I really really appreciate it.

I am having another issue with this. Our group of friends is completely, 100% intertwined. We have ALL of the same friends. We are both in music fraternities in school, and the two fraternities consider each other brothers and sisters. Well, one of my sisters is having a birthday party, and they are hosting it. I didn't tell her what happened but I said I might not be able to come because I was *fairly certain* the person something happened with was going to be there. She is damn near ready to cancel the party just because she wants me to be there for her birthday, and she was like, "Well uninvite the person, who is it?" and I wouldn't tell her, so she doesn't know that its him... but he texted me later (he has been apologizing profusely) and told me that he would rather not be there than have me miss a sister's birthday. He said he wouldn't drink and wouldn't even look at me wrongly.

Everyone wants me to be there. But the few people I have told have said I should stay away from him and not have any contact with him. Should I make an exception for her? I feel so so so so bad about the idea of missing her party. She wants me there SOOOO badly. D, my boyfriend, hasn't given me an opinion either way about whether or not I should go.

J, also, in his apologizing PROFUSELY has been saying that whenever I am ready, if ever, he wants to apologize to me in person and wants to salvage some form of our friendship.

Any thoughts? I have hardly eaten anything today because of the anxiety

a couple posts here have sounded a little like they blame juliebean, why didn't she just leave, etc. if she feels victimized, chances are good that she has a reason to, so we should give her the benefit of the doubt. people who were raped in the most usual, violent sense often feel guilty and often blame themselves for not doing thus and so.

I myself probably wouldn't use the word "rape", though some people would, but in any case there certainly was some force and manipulation here. I agree with people who have told you to stay away from this guy, tell him not to contact you, and don't contact him. Uninvite him from the party. You don't need to tell anyone why unless you want to, and if they nag you about it, tell them to stop.

He behaved very, very badly. Maybe (and maybe not) there were things you might have done differently, I would not presume to judge from what you've told us. But he was absolutely a scumbag. The friendship should be over. Apologizing should not fix it.

You are probably doing some other girl a favor by sending this guy a clear message.

I don't take a hard line on very many things, but I'm taking it on this one.

I placed no blame at Julie's door. I just asked why she didnt go to her boyfriend or leave the room.

I am asking this because it could of been construde that I was placing some blame at Julies door my attempt is to show others that there is none.

Boy what a difficult situation. I'm a firm believer in No means no PERIOD. I also believe that you have the right to change your mind about whether or not you want to have sex no matter how far along in the act you are.

Even give these things, I don't think you were raped. You did say no, then proceeded to give him oral sex, several times. This really is how misunderstandings happen. I agree that the smartest thing to do would have been to get up and leave. That would have made it clear to both of you how you felt.

It sounds to me that you are very confused about your feelings for J. You have to know how you feel before you can expect someone else to know.

If you disagree and believe this person has violated you, there is nothing on this planet that should make you even concider being in the same place with him. It sounds very much like you need to place some value on yourself and your wishes.

Ok, I finished reading the thread and have a couple more things to say. Stating that Juliebean should have removed herself from a situation she did not want to be in is NOT BLAMING THE VICTIM. It's called "don't be a victim."

We as women need to get our act together! It's OK to say NO!!! You can be rude, you can insult him whatever, it is YOUR RIGHT!

I have been raped, I have been molested. Because of this I taught my children, particularly my daughter, certain things.

1) Never be alone with this man EVER he is not to be trusted.
2) NO means NO. It is not a game. Say it, mean it. If you ever feel uncomfortable somethings wrong, sex is a beautiful thing and it should not make you feel uneasy.
3) NEVER EVER drink around people you do not know or do not trust COMPLETELY. This does not mean that a drunk girl that has been raped has brought it on herself! But to put yourself in a position that dangerous is careless and can be avoided.
4) Who you sleep with is YOUR choice, do not ever think that it's easier to do it rather than refuse, you are more important than that.

And that's what it's all about minimizing our risks! Some things are beyond our control, but it is just plain irresponsible not to minimize them when you can! In a perfect world this would not be necessary.

Good post.

Here's the thing about the party, though... He can't be uninvited. Its at his house. But he promised to stay away from me and not to drink. So I dont know what to do.

hey, i didn't point any fingers. i told you my overall impression. when someone tells you this kind of story and the first thing everyone says is "why didn't you leave?" it sends a message. i think it was insensitive.

>And that's what it's all about minimizing our risks! Some things are beyond our control, but it is just plain irresponsible not to minimize them when you can!

yeah, but if you don't, it's still not your fault. saying that someone is irresponsible is the same thing as saying it's their fault. walking in the park at night does not give someone the right to rape you.

it's the real, imperfect world and we should do what we can to protect ourselves. but she is not "responsible" in any case!

anyway, jb, i would probably not go the party if I were you. maybe in a while you can go to these joint events and keep your distance and ignore him, but now it's too soon, and you have to establish a boundary. if they want to cancel it for that reason, well, let them. or if it's not too late, have it somewhere else and tell him not to come.

also, julie, it sounds to me like you are leaning towards forgiving him. he's apologized and it would be easier to swallow your feelings and accept it. I know it's very unattractive to say that you have to hate someone and freeze them out forever, especially a friend. It sounds like a lot of work.

You CAN accept his apology. You CAN forgive him. You don't have to hate him forever.

What you should not do is forget. He can be sorry, and maybe he means it, but his actions had consequences that change everything. It was serious. So I really think it's best to be done with him.

[quote=JulieBean;915118]I sorta see everyone's point.

I didn't see him coming with it hanging out because the room was completely dark besides the outside streetlamps. I was fighting my own urge to give in, we have always had a mutual and explosive chemistry, and the whole time he said, "I did it for you" so not only was I battling with my own feelings, I was battling a sort of feeling of obligation toward him. And I was still mad and disgusted by my boyfriend, and that is why I didn't call for him or go to him. But I did hold up my "no" for the entire thing, and from the complete get go.

This is what I want to change! Your obligation is to yourself FIRST. Not to the person hosting the party, not to this boy or any other. Perhaps I am being insensitive, but you need to take something away from this experience. That compromising yourself to please someone else is never healthy.

It's not about placing blame, it's about learning to avoid this situation in the future if it is possible. If the situation was not avoidable what to do to protect yourself.

About the party, if you feel at all uncomfortable about it the answer is simple don't go.

Dear Julie,

It clearly, was not rape, or any kind of sexual assault, whatsoever. You need to take 100% responsibility, for what transpired. I make this statement, very much in your interest. With responsibility comes power. When you are responsible, you are in control. Shifting blame to another, particularly, blame that rises to the level of a serious felony, makes you a victim. Victims, generally are powerless, and have little control over what is happening to them.

You were not a victim of an assault; you were ambivalent. Now, your are distressed, because of your ambivalence. Please, take responsibility for your conduct. You will feel better, in a heart-beat.

Lastly, I am not condoning the conduct of the young man; it was reprehensible.

I wish you the best,

Larry

Thank you all for your interest in this thread and your input.

Because of some difficulties with keeping our posting within the guidelines of this site, I am now locking this thread.

JulieBean, I do hope you have received what you perceive to be some good sound advice from this thread. Please know that this is a very strong subject for most people and many have different views.

Be well
sabby