Iggy...

Here's the thing, Igster. We're a pretty supportive bunch here. We have tons of compassion, because ALL of us have some reason to be feeling like crap. 99% of the time, I read people's posts on this board and say "gee. I don't blame them one bit for feeling like that". With you, however, it's very different. You say that you've given all of this concrete 'evidence', but most of what you've said sounds like extrapolation to me. I was believing you at the beginning when you said you got teased a lot as a kid, but now I'm starting to wonder about that, too.

Hey -- if you want to drop it, then let's all just drop it, then. If you can say to us "I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE SO STOP TRYING TO GET ME TO GET HELP FOR MYSELF", then we can just have social conversations from now on. We are assuming that you're here because you want help and that you want to improve, so we're trying to help. Your mind seems pretty shut tight, though, so we're just wasting our time if you don't truly want to change.

Things I understand:
- people can be cruel
- people are not always cruel
- you've been hurt as a kid by things people said
- you continue to be hurt as an adult by things you think people must be thinking
- some women are not attracted to you
- if a woman is not hitting on you, then it means she thinks you're horrendously ugly

I can only hope that if you ever were to meet a woman you were interested in, that you would never bring up your concerns in this area. It would be an enormous turnoff. But see? The problem is you FEEL this way, even if you manage to hold it in when you talk to women. That kind of stuff shows through clear as day.

And you didn't answer whether you're going to try a therapist or not.

Gary, I have also suggested counceling to you. I guess I don't understand why you won't pursue it. I know it's not going to change your looks but it's going to help you to feel more accepting of them and btw, you are NOT ugly. I have to agree that your negativity is probably showing in your attitude and on your face, both of which are big turn-offs. That negativity is what therapy can help you change.

How do you account for all the people who are not attractive, yet have someone in their lives? Maybe they were/are more accepting of their appearance and have a better self-image/ self-esteem.

Looks are superficial. What's far more important is what's inside, what's in the person's heart. But right now you have negativity residing in your heart.

You need to get past that if you want to feel better about yourself and truly want to work towards being able to have someone special in your life. It's either that or accept yourself for the way you are now and accept that you will be alone.

I know I have a lot of negativity to work on getting rid of and I'm doing that in therapy (individual and group). I won't give up, although there are certainly days I want to. But if I give up, then that means accepting me for the way I am now and accepting that I will always be alone. Personally, for myself, I don't think there will ever be somebody in my life but at this point, I need to work on me first. If I don't fix me, then how can I make a relationship work. I don't want to grow old alone so I need to work hard on me cuz changes in me are not going to happen overnight. It's going to take years to undo my negative thinking that started in childhood due to the verbal and emotional abuse that goes as far back as I can remember. I was always told that I was never good enough, never did anything right, etc, etc, etc. But I'm not willing to accept that anymore or the depressive lifestyle that I have endured ever since.

Are you willing to help yourself to feel better about yourself or are you going to accept yourself the way you are? And I'm not talking about what's on the outside, I'm talking about what's on the inside. If you can fix what's on the inside, then you will become a more beautiful person on the inside and it will naturally flow through to the outside and people will notice that.

So Gary, it's a conscious decision you have to make about yourself

a) accept yourself and your life the way it is now
b) go to therapy and start working at changing the inside.

Which one will it be Gary? Even if you are alone the rest of your life, don't you want to like yourself more than you do today? Wouldn't that make you a happier person? I know it sure will for me. I'm not giving up and I hope you won't either.

C'mon Gary, make the right decision and pick 'b' and start on the road to recovery of self-acceptance, better self-esteem and more happiness. And you never know, all of that just might bring that person into your life that at this point you are longing for. Gary, I'm longing for someone too and I'm taking the necessary steps to try to make that happen. But even if I don't end up with someone in my life, at least I'll be a better person for having improved on my self-acceptance and self-esteem.

What have you got to lose? What is holding you back to start to feeling better about yourself? I don't get it. Give counceling a shot. At the very very least you'll like yourself more than you do today BUT even therapy won't work if you go into it with a very closed mind like you have now. Forget about your looks. You need to work on the inside and you need to have a totally open mind to do that. You'll have to work on things that are totally foreign to you, that are hard, but won't it be worth it in the end when you can accept you for you?

This is all said to you in love, I hope you receive it the same way.

You're right, IG. My experiences are nothing compared to yours.

I chose not to be popular in high school.
I chose to look the way I do.
People really don't call me names. People really don't point at me when I walk through a store and say, "Oh my God, look at her."

My life has been peaches and cream. You've had it rough. There are no comparisons. You win.

(((((((((((((((((((((( 1day )))))))))))))))))))))))

Gary,

I've been reading your posts for quite awhile now, and I see leaps of logic that I'm not sure you have explored. You said that you have present evidence...can you accept some cross-examination?

First, you have said that the fact that you have never had a date, or a kiss, or a girlfriend is due to your appearance. I'd like to explore that a bit...

Can you acknowledge that there are men who are less physically attractive than you, and that some of those men have had relationships with women?

I hope you can be patient and work through this with me...if you take some time to really look at the details of your thought process, you might just find cracks that will allow some room for change, and even happiness.

*hugs*
Jo

Dear sweet Booberhead, I had 2 uncles that were Identical twins, mirror images of each other, both very nice looking.
Richard was very sure of himself, fun to be around always had a pack of kids around, he never had to worry about girls dated all the time, he was married 4 times, partly because he thought he was God's gift to women, and partly because he was shallow and concited, he passed away alone.
Clifford was more of a Mama's boy staying close to home and near Mama, when there Mother passed on, he went to high school and tried to hang around ppl his own age but they were cruel to him, they would say Hey Cliffy why don't you make like a Cliff and drop over
he never dated, when he was 64 years old he met a lady and married her , now remember Richard and Clifford were identical in looks, but how they felt about ppl was what was important, Richard was egotistical and Clifford was a caring person, so looks don't matter it's how you feel toward others and youself
Angie

All is taken in love AG. And I take everything from the others in a positive supportive way.

The reason I'm here isn't to find out that I'm attractive and change my attitude about that as you seem to assume. I just want others to know the frustration and hurt I'm forced to live with.

Angel Girl, I'm just SO sick of hearing women tell me looks are superficial. They all say this but their actions speak differently. AG, you've made it guite obvious how you show interest in the guys in this forum who are attractive. Women have told me time and time again how it's "all on the inside" but when it comes to who THEY select, their rules go right out the window.

Yes, what's on the inside is most important. But if there's nothing on the outside, none of that will ever matter.

LMo, you say it's "in my head" that people still tease me and call me ugly? No, it's very real and there's hardly a day that goes by where I'm not reminded.

1day, I told you our situations are different and that your lack of opposite sex contact was your choice.

Jo and Angie, your caring is noted and very much appreciated. Most people's reference to "unattractive" (as in unattractive people still finding someone) is still far more attractive on the scale than where I am.

I HAVE NO CHOICE when it comes to ever finding someone.

My theory is that I was born with out the gene responsible for sexual attracion. I'm seen as an non-sexual person.

Bottom line is: If there's not one bit of sex appeal in a person to begin with, all the attitude, personality, and positive thinking are worthless.

ZERO X anything = ZERO

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I've given sound logical reasons for why I think as I do and they're not being truly addressed.

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Sound and logical to you, maybe, but certainly not for the rest of us. Your problems aren't JUST your looks; it's your way of thinking.

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I'm gettng the same response of "let's just think positive thoughts and you'll be fine and dandy" or I am "warped".

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Turning your negative thoughts into positive ones is the best way to begin to see yourself in a different light. I've posted the ways to change thinking mistakes.

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So the severe teasing (verbal attacks on my appearance) in my youth had nothing to do with my looks?

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Maybe some of the teasing, but you certainly don't have a corner on THAT market! Kids are known for being uncaring, unfeeling and unmerciful. We ALL suffered at the hands of others calling us names.

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The rude comments I still get to this day have nothing to do with my looks?

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In my opinion, you take comments you hear and personalize them immediately without even allowing the posibility that YOU ARE NOT the subject of the comment. I've even wondered if the comment was made in the first place.

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The fact that no woman has ever touched me, much less expressed interest in me has nothing to do with my looks?

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From what I've experienced with you, no, it probably isn't ALL because of your looks.

And as for you thinking that we've made kind statements to you JUST to make you feel better? WRONG To me, personally, that is a LIE if I don't really mean it. I DON'T MAKE KIND STATEMENTS JUST to make anyone feel better. If I don't mean it, I don't say it! That's just a bill of goods you've sold yourself so that you don't have to believe or take action on what was said to you.

IG, i'm sorry. this is where you need to seek professional help. you think your thinking is completely logical and can't understand our not agreeing. i'll say this as kindly as i can. your thinking is not completely logical in the realm that you won't move on it to even accept suggestion or opinion. no one is right 100% of the time also, you seem to get alot of attention from putting yourself down, sometimes at the expense of others feelings here. there again, you're unbending. i will post only this one post, because i think posting more would only deteriorate your condition by you "digging your heels even deeper" into your disorder and feeding negativity in your posts and building your case on ugliness. i choose not to feed negativity. that's just not a good feeling. i feel as though i would be causing more harm than good.

i wanted to post this because i don't want you to think i'm ignoring you because i reply to alot posts but not many of yours and have for quite some time now. i'm far from ignoring you. i feel for you. however, you've proven yourself rigid and unbending, so i won't attempt to "bring you around".

i wish you well. i'll talk with you about the sun and moon, movies and how expensive they are, food, work, depression, etc.

thank you,

I give up. I'm soon ready to give up on any hope for my life as it is.

What it all comes down to is quite simple.

It's the old "We will tell him anything if it can make him feel better, even though we know what a loser he really is" story. That is not the same as telling a lie to someone because the intent is positive.

I say this because nothing I've said to support my view is being considered.

I know it's all done with loving supportive intentions. PLEASE DON'T FORGET THAT.

I am what I am and that's that.

.................................

Forget about looks. There are plenty of other reasons I'm isolated that have nothing to do with even having a negative attitude.

I've posted quite a bit of unrelated off topic and often positive things in the forums and the reaction (or should I say non-reaction) clearly says "he's not one of us". Everything about me is just too different, my opinions, my interest in various things, my style of conversation and I'm just not part of the "flow" that everyone else seems to be so naturally a part of here.

That's been the story of my entire life and it's my OWN fault for being me and I'm so sorry about that.

I can't take much more of living like this and there appears to be no answer in sight.

IG, i'm sorry you're feeling so down. you're so down that you feel like nothing will ever change. so, i ask you, what do you have to lose by seeking professional help? it won't hurt, and could possibly change your life...in a very good way.

i wish you could really hear us saying that you could benefit greatly from professional help. the time is now, IG. getting better can happen. the choice to get/do better is yours. i so hope you grasp it with both hands.

we're rooting on your doing well

kd

BOOBERHEAD, please read my post in "When little things know you down", page 6 # 127751
And PLEASE see a therapist, what frightens you about seeing one, it's okay to be nervous, We want to see you happy, also start answering some of the stuff in here it's fun
Angie

btw, what IS your favorite meal? where in this big, beautiful world do you live? what do you do for fun?

let's talk about and concentrate on pretty and feel good things today...even if for one day, k?

Gary,

I asked you a question above that you did not answer, so I will try a slightly different tack...

I've been trying to avoid the whole question of whether looks matter or not because I think it doesn't have a yes or no answer. I can understand why it's difficult for you to accept the assertion that looks don't matter because it's completely untrue. Looks *DO* matter. I don't know what part of Florida you live in, but I know that in certain places, looks matter more than in others. I have a friend in LA who has a terrible time meeting women, because LA is a fairly looks-oriented city, and worse yet, he's in the music business, which is even more looks oriented.

So there you have it...validation...the fact that you do not look like Antonio Banderas means that you might have a harder time meeting women.

BUT... (you knew there would be a but, didn't you? )

I don't think you can possibly argue that you are so hideous looking that no woman in the whole world would give you a chance. Heck, I've dated men worse looking than you.

So...here's the challenge. Can you accept that perhaps the reason you have not had a relationship with a women is more complex than just "I'm ugly?" And are you willing to put the "I'm ugly" argument on the back burner long enough to explore those other reasons, and determine if there's something you can change about them?

Attraction between men and women is a very complex thing. Certainly physical appearance is part of the mix, but so are self-confidence, conversational ability, humor, charm, empathy, intelligence, and I'm sure quite a number of other things as well. If you put everything on appearance, you are giving yourself an easy way out, a way to not have to think about any of those other factors.

Now, I'm not going to ask you to believe what people are saying, that if you develop your self-esteem, you will be more attractive to women. I believe that, but I can't prove it. BUT...if you work on developing your self-esteem, you will be happier, with or without someone else. Whether you are in a relationship or not, you are always in the company of yourself. Why not try to appreciate that contant companion a little bit more?

*hugs*
Jo

Jo, I live in Tampa and have for 21 years. I spent my first 22 years in your neck of the woods, Cherry Hill, N.J. Location plays a minor part in some areas like you said but not where I've lived.

I know there are many factors in attraction.

Many can be lacking and there will still be attraction.

Physical attraction is that ONE THING that can't be left out for any kind of sexual or romantic relaionship to start. That's a fact that can't be denied.

Too many times, I've seen men who are negative, have zero personality or sense of humor, are mean, and abusive yet they STILL can attract women.

Why is that? (drum roll, please......)

Because they have SEX appeal in their physical make up.

You know, maybe "ugly" isn't even the most accurate word I should be using for myself and that may be where some misunderstanding is.

As I think I just mentioned recently, there's simply no sex appeal to my physical make up. My face has a "dull" look about it that makes no woman want to get near me.

BINGO! I think I've finally clarified it!

So yes, I guess it's possible someone for more "ugly" in the commonly accepted definition of the word to be able to find a woman because they still have something I don't - physical sex appeal.

Kimmydawn, I really should take your advice and try to look at the other positive things but that will not take away the pain and frustration. Nothing ever will.

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All is taken in love AG. And I take everything from the others in a positive supportive way.

Angel Girl, I'm just SO sick of hearing women tell me looks are superficial. They all say this but their actions speak differently. AG, you've made it guite obvious how you show interest in the guys in this forum who are attractive.

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Gary, how have I made that so obvious that I'm showing interest in guys here that are attractive? I don't even know what most of them look like. Who specifically are you talking about? You really have me confused with your comments to me.

Angel Girl, I hope you know my comments weren't meant as any kind of put down.

You just happened to make a statement I've heard many women make and I wanted to use that as an example for the point I was making.

It's not an issue of right vs. wrong which it seems you're taking it as, not at all.

As far as specific names, I don't think it would be wise to mention such a thing because I can see it leading to all kinds of other problems and I've caused enough already.

It was wrong of me to use you as an example and I'm sorry.

I keep forgetting this is a support forum and I've been too guilty of taking it in the other direction.

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1day, I told you our situations are different and that your lack of opposite sex contact was your choice.

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Yes, I know that is what you told me. What I don't get, is how you "know" you are right. You don't know me. You have no idea how my experiences differ or are similar to yours.

I become frustrated when I am either blown off OR have my feelings/life experiences immediately dismissed. Which is what I feel you are doing.

Again, I say:

Gary, I didn't read your comments as putting me down. I'll admit that a good looking guy will catch my attention. But I have no idea who you are talking about on this site. You have to PM me with names. I understand you not wanting to say any names here but I'm expecting a PM.

You know, I was going to keep my word from last night where I told you that I did understand some things, but other people have posted what I was thinking of posting and your arguing against reason and real logic continues. So why should I keep banging my head against this brick wall? It's my decision to stop until and if something happens with you that maybe you'll open your mind just a bit to let all the good advice and techniques start to soak in.

Several of us are in agreement that you use your looks, or what you think are your looks just to get attention. I love a good argument but I'm not making any headway here. I might as well be talking to a brick wall. There are others that really do want to change, so... I won't be playing your game with you anymore.

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Two women were in the car next to me with their windows also rolled down. One said "Hey, he's cute!" the other said "Yeah, but compared to WHAT?" They both started laughing like crazy. I took my half finished Slurpee and threw it all over them. They sure weren't laughing anymore but they deserved it for being so cruel.

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Isn't throwing a drink on people -- especially people you don't know who are sitting in their own car -- called "assault"?

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I took my half finished Slurpee and threw it all over them.

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Good lord!!! I had forgotten about that! Talk about reactive and immature!

Wants2Fly, isn't making a post to someone for the ONLY purpose of verbally attacking them called HARASSMENT?

The mods will like this one.

Maybe we could throw in verbal "assualt" while we are at it.

Eureka!!! I've got it!!!

Thanks for sticking with me, Gary. Your explanation gave me just the handle I've been looking for. Now, I hope you can stick with me a little bit longer, because I'm going to go a couple of different directions at once. I'll try to keep it coherent as possible.

You're right...physical attraction is a crucial part of attraction. You're not going to want to kiss, touch, hold, etc. someone that you feel no physical attraction to. But again, physical attraction is a complex phenomenon. It involves more than just visual cues, even, but to keep things simple, I will stick with the visual. There is a certain amount of physical appearance that is fixed...the color, shape and positioning of the eyes, the shape of the face, the balance of features top to bottom and left to right. Short of plastic surgery, there's little that can be done about that. However, there is another factor in physical appearance known as affect...how animated and expressive the face is. Your description of your face as having a "dull" look really turned this light on for me. That word conveys things to me like no sparkle in the eyes, not much change in expression, suttf like that. And the big thing is, affect *can* change.

A lot of people here have tried to explain this rather nebulous phenomenon of being more attractive when someone has more self-confidence, or is simply happier. Well, the key is, mood alters affect. Speaking for myself, when I am feeling good, I have what is probably an overabundance of affect. And even though I'm not a classic physical beauty at all, people are attracted to me. However, when I'm depressed, I have what is known as "flat affect"...very little change in expression, dull eyes, no voice modulation. And in that state, I couldn't attract a dog with a fresh meat necklace.

I know I'm asking you to make a bit of a logical leap from the arguments you have built up in your mind, but the truth is, you have some control over that aspect of your physical appearance, and working on the depression will result in changes to that physical attractiveness factor.

I'm going to shift gears a little here, because something else came to my mind when reading your post. I read a statistic awhile back that the divorce rate among people who meet and fall in love online is much lower than in the general population. The speculation is that by not having that upfront filter of purely physical appearance, people are more likely to find someone they are compatible with on a deeper level. So, while it may take more effort for you to meet someone than it would take one of those handsome jerks you observe, you may find that in the end, you will find someone you are happier with.

*hugs*
Jo

can we remain kind and supportive in our newest forum that's been created to "boost" each other?

if there's a problem, please take it to pm. if there's something i can do to help, please pm me.

let's keep this forum's focus please.

thank you in advance.

kd