[Rainbowfairy]

Thread info (open to additions & adjustments as I explore this)

This is a journal.

I may add to the info section as my thoughts organise - I am a bit disorganised in my head today.

The journey is an attempt to override a life-long association in the brain between abusive sexual fantasies (ASF) and orgasm (ORG).

I am hoping to weaken the association by refusing to experience ORG whilst any ASF movies are playing in my mind.

The aim is to experience ORG without ASF playing.

The aim is to be fully present when I am with my partner.

My Beliefs

I believe ASF operates in several ways for me

(1) I can leave my body and avoid true intimacy when engaging in ASF - it was when I was open and vulnerable that I was wounded deeply (CSA age 4-13), so it makes sense I learned to avoid (any chance of) that to cope with sex.

(2) I was overstimulated from a very young age, and my ASF have followed a similar pattern to drug use - increasingly extreme in order to achieve the "high" (ORG), so in-line with addiction theory, I am going to attempt to starve my brain of the "high", in the hope that it will normalise, so that "normal" sexual interaction will be engaging.

(3) Dissociation was one of my main coping skills - I (mentally) created a patchwork quilt on the wall that I would get lost in when I was being abused, so fragmenting myself so that one part can be safe from danger is what's normal to me, but I don't need this skill any more - during stimulation that could lead to ORG, I believe a fragment of myself goes to the ASF and a fragment stays in my body - I believe breaking the association could bring the ASF fragment back into my body.

(3, i) Because ORG and stimulation were so overwhelming when I first experienced them, I believe the ASF-ORG association could also function to distance me from bodily sensation that I may still fear will overwhelm me - as they did when I was small - by providing me somewhere else to go (ASF) rather than be wholly in my body with the (potentially overwhelming) sensations. The ASF appear to be a less intimidating place to be than my body.

(4) A lot of the abuse was coupled with threats of horrendous violence, but I was "lucky" to actually only receive restraint, slaps and shoves, and they didn't happen on every occasion, so I believe part of my association is between pleasure-pain - so this is a sub-association, if you like, that I hope to weaken.

(5) Through therapy, I believe I have worth. I believe I deserve pleasure without pain. I believe I am beautiful as I am, and do not have to play a sexual "role" any longer. I believe I deserve to be present when my partner offers me the gift of intimacy. I believe my partner deserves my presence also. So, mentally, I am in relatively good condition - aside from this.

(6) This may be as simple as breaking a habit, or as laborious as treating an addiction - only time will tell.

Notes

This is a very personal, and intimate journey, and I never intended to document it publicly, however, I was unaware that so many others struggled with this too until I asked on here, so I hope that making this journal may help others in some way too.

[atomicc]

Thank you for sharing this with us.

[Rainbowfairy]

You're welcome Atomicc.

[Rainbowfairy]

I have been struggling with how to do this without disrespecting my partner by giving too much information. I think I'll just start, and play it by ear.

So, I noticed something last night when we were intimate, something I never realised.
I never considered that I detached during just intercourse. Some of the abuse I experienced was penetrative in nature (digits, objects), but I do not have a memory of successful penile penetration (I remember it attempted though), so I guess I assumed my trauma would be specific to the type of abuses - I think I was wrong. And now thinking about it, it's not as simple as being afraid of only what the abuser done - it is all intimacy - I think I need to remember that the effects of abuse are multifaceted, and I think I have a core issue with emotional intimacy. But I also need to remember I have been lying to myself for years about being sexually healthy - as if abstinence from sex is the only sexual wound you can have - go dichotomous thinking.

God this is hard.
But in the absence of meltdown indicators - usually a sign I should keep going.

During non-penetrative activity the movie started. So I started trying to ground myself by saying in my head "stay in your body" over and over. The movie continued, so I instigated intercourse (which doesn't tend to correspond with a movie), and without really thinking about it, I continued to say "stay in your body" and the most amazing thing happened - I stayed in my body.

It's amazing because until now I never knew I left during straightfoward intercourse. I thought it was only other acts and when the movie played. So, I think *I* had intercourse for the first time last night. Or at least more of me had it than usual. i could feel areas of my body and my partner's body that seemingly had never been there before, it was the strangest thing. I could feel multiple contact areas between us, when before I mainly only noticed the genital contact and any areas where I may be being held.

I'm quite surprised about this. On the one hand, the problem is more all encompassing than I thought, but on the other, at least this time, it was very quick to respond to grounding. And, if I am more connected during intercourse (and comfortable with that level of connection), that should make breaking the ASF-ORG a bit more pleasant.

So, to sum:

I did not engage in the ASF when they started - I changed activity to one that does not lead to ORG.

Through telling myself to stay in my body, I discovered sensations and areas of the body I had been previously closed off to - and liked it.

I still had feelings of sadness afterwards - this is something I haven't really talked about - I am often left with a feeling of profound sadness and emptiness afterwards, and just want to curl into myself. I think this will change as my sexuality develops and becomes more self-considerate.

So, mainly a positive experience this time.

[Rainbowfairy]

I am in shock. Serious shock.

Last night, armed only with my single, trusty grounding statement, I experienced my first orgasm withOUT ASF. Simply by responding to any images/scenes with "Stay in your body, stay in your body". It happened.

It was very, very strange. I felt everything from tingles on my scalp to twitchings in my toes, and I got a real big fright - I gasped, and the out-breath seemed to last forever. I felt so vulnerable, as I experienced a total loss of control. Without participation in ASF I was totally in my body, and allowing another person to manipulate it, without me controlling whether or not I orgasm (which is something I can do if I partially leave my body to go to ASF).

I don't know what else to say right now. It's one of the weirdest experiences I have ever had, it is beyond words to fully illustrate.

I still felt teary afterwards, but it was different. It was almost relief, tinged with sadness, but not because I felt raped, but because of what I had been missing for so long, because i trusted my partner enough to be fully prenset with him, and he loved me, he didn't hurt me. It didn't hurt at all. My biggest fear was put to bed.

I almost don't want to believe it. I'm actually not sure I do. I have to be careful as this might be a fluke. I've been experiencing a minor degree of depersonalisation this week, so reality can be in question - if I'm not real, why would anything else be. But I know I am real really - people can see me, talk to me, etc, I just need to keep an eye on that.

I'll continue to update.

Really hope it wasn't a fluke so I can get happy about it.

[bigjellybelly]

Really pleased to hear this.

Well done. I'm going to try 'stay in your body' mantra too. By the way I identify with the aftermath sadness thing I get that too. It's quite a confused feeling.

[Rainbowfairy]

Dear Bigjellybelly,

thank you for your reply and I really hope this can work for you too, and continues to work for me too.

I have been reflecting on it. And the way the wounds from abuse manifest, should, logically, inform the psychological "ointment" used to heal them. So, in this context, I think this has worked for me is because the ASF-ORG association, is a dissociation. And we know that grounding can treat dissociation. My case appears to be simpler than I thought - should it continue to work. I suspect there may be times at this early stage where it will be easier/harder, and sometimes not work at all - I'm at least open to that - I am learning a new way of being - that takes practice.

I'd like to hear how you get on, if it's not too personal (I understand if it is). It would be great if this works for others.

[Chartres]

Hi Rainbowfairy,
Thanks for your courage in starting this thread. I just now read your previous thread and now this one. This exact same issue is one that I'm grappling with now (abusive fantasies), except that my partner was also a victim of csa so he has his own sexual issues to deal with. I've just started reading the Sexual Healing Journey by Wendy Maltz. For the first time, I have some hope that I can change my sexual responses. I know that talking about sex will be huge for me is dispelling the shame and fear, so although it scares the heck out of me I am going to commit to sharing at lest some of my journey here.

FYI, my CSA situation was my father raped me from approx age 4-12. I also have one memory of him giving me to his male friend for oral sex around age 5. Total denial in my family, the usual story.

Also FYI, I find I can only address the sexual stuff periodically, so I expect I will need to disappear from this thread at times.

[Chartres]

Okay, now after giving my intro, I'm going to talk about the ASFs. <deep breath>

I recently started having a fantasies about my T and I having sex. I am clear that this is NOT erotic transference since when I am with him and at all other times I don't have sexual/erotic/romantic feelings towards him. I also know that he would NEVER cross that line. In fact, he won't even touch me at all. So I belie that the fantasies are a way of me working out my sexuality in regards to a man in a power/authority role.

One fantasy is what I see to be a "positive" one. It involves T giving me oral sex and not asking for anything in return. Telling me that I deserve to have pleasure. Almost like he is doing it for me as part of the therapy.

Another is of me giving him oral sex and intercourse as payment for therapy. One version is of me talking about the rape during a session and then at the end of the session he tells me it is time for me to pay him by giving him sex. All while there is another client waiting in the waiting room.

I think this one touches on the secrecy aspects, having to walk out of the room and face others who either don't know what is going on or aren't going to do anything about it, and the obligation.

As a start, I am trying to just observe what fantasies come up without trying to change them right now. Just to notice what is happening without pressuring myself to make it different.

[Rainbowfairy]

Dear Chartres,

I just want to acknowledge your reply, and your courage - this is a difficult topic to discuss, so thank you for joining me. I will reply in proper tomorrow when I'm at my computer.

[Rainbowfairy]

Hello Chartres,

I can respond properly now.
I think it's great that you are also tackling this one. If you want to hash any of it out, I am available as someone who gets it, and appears to have dealt with it (although I hesitate, as it has been under a week).

I also had what I thought was a sexual attraction to my therapist, and that I was trying to rebel against the (perceived) power differential was also the conclusion I came to. I only ever thought of him when I wasn't in his presence, and he never actually featured in any sexual fantasies, it was just feelings I had when I was between appointments, until I figured out what was really going on. Therapists are seductive by default, because they often represent the relationship we never had with a parent, I believe.

You seem to have a clear idea of what your fantasies mean, it's really good you have been willing to really go there with yourself and face them. The third one you mention indicates a lack of voice to me - you talk about being raped, and then you are raped by someone you've just told about being raped (or that you trust), perhaps a kind of reenactment - there is also the sense that offering your body sexually is how to show appreciation to someone showing care. I think a lot of ASF also serve to absolve us from sexual pleasure, as if we are too ashamed to just enjoy it, so it must hurt, or be deviant, to be OK to have.

It certainly appears that you are working out a lot of your trauma though your fantasies. However, if they are not serving you any more, it might be a good time to talk to your therapist about them.

[Rainbowfairy]

So, I had another successful experience yesterday. It was slightly more of a struggle to stay in my body, I had to repeat my mantra "stay in your body" more than the last time, but not excessively so. The orgasm, again, totally took me by surprise and took my breath literally out of my body. I still find it amazing that my partner has a back and legs and chest, and everything else I didn't know he had when focusing sexual attention on me.

But this time I my attention slipped and I detached virtually right afterwards - took my partner to speak to me to realise I wasn't fully there. But the important thing is that I engaged the the whole sexual experience, and it was awesome!! So happy this is working.

[Rainbowfairy]

So, another success. That's every time I have engaged in sexual activity that leads to org, I have been able to "stay in my body" and the movie/images stop/leave. I'm still getting a real fright when I do orgasm, the feeling is just really weird when you feel it with full consciousness, after only ever feeling it with partial consciousness. I think I like it though.

[Rainbowfairy]

Dear Bigjellybelly and Chartres,

how are you going with this?

[bigjellybelly]

Well sort of half and half for me, I have been doing 'stay in my body' but in some cases this meant that I was not dissociating but that I didn't orgasm, which is ok, because we were still both really enjoying it. If I drift off I'm finding that if I describe to myself what he is doing or what we are doing, it helps me to stay present... Getting him to talk to me also helps but with an aspie bloke the content is quite unpredictable at times !!

I also have found that when things are bothering me about other stuff I'm dealing with (dad stuff and memories and stress) I literally just can't engage with it, which is a change because I realise before I was dissociating all the time and doing it anyway which it seems was a failsafe and now I've tried to stop doing that, I have to face the fact that I am stressed and may not be in the mood right now... Which is new, because I've always thought I was always 'in the mood' but actually I wasn't. I was doing what someone else wanted or what I thought they wanted. I'm finding it all a bit challenging really but the aim of not going off into that place again is a pretty good motivator...

[bigjellybelly]

Chartres that's really brave to share that. I think these people in caring positions bring out some very particular reactions because we are so vulnerable around them and we don't know what to do with people who are really caring.

I'll share with you a very odd reaction I had to my physiotherapist the other day. a much older, very authoritative man who stood at the end of the bed and held my feet and said to me 'you're in the right place, we are going to take you seriously and we are going to look after you'. I fell apart, I almost jumped on him on the spot and then I nearly cried. I thought about him all week in various guises. This is what I didn't have from my dad - his abuse was all uber secret, very covert and manipulative and not bossy but quietly coercive - this is good for you. He also never cared for me, parented authoritatively or showed any interest in me after a certain age (12). I have never known how to respond to men who show care to me without it being sexual. I also have a terrible association with sex and gratitude. As in I should be grateful for that experience whether it is pleasurable or painful, and I must say thank you, thank you, over and over. These are the phrases that I go to in my ASF that I am battling.

The next time I saw the physio he'd forgotten me and I couldn't have been less interested in him! but the reaction was soooo strong that it took me aback and reminded me in no uncertain terms that I was not ok with myself and I needed to keep working on it.

[Rainbowfairy]

Originally Posted by bigjellybelly

Well sort of half and half for me, I have been doing 'stay in my body' but in some cases this meant that I was not dissociating but that I didn't orgasm, which is ok, because we were still both really enjoying it. If I drift off I'm finding that if I describe to myself what he is doing or what we are doing, it helps me to stay present... Getting him to talk to me also helps but with an aspie bloke the content is quite unpredictable at times !!

I also have found that when things are bothering me about other stuff I'm dealing with (dad stuff and memories and stress) I literally just can't engage with it, which is a change because I realise before I was dissociating all the time and doing it anyway which it seems was a failsafe and now I've tried to stop doing that, I have to face the fact that I am stressed and may not be in the mood right now... Which is new, because I've always thought I was always 'in the mood' but actually I wasn't. I was doing what someone else wanted or what I thought they wanted. I'm finding it all a bit challenging really but the aim of not going off into that place again is a pretty good motivator...

This all sounds pretty positive to me Bigjellybelly.
Being more assertive about when and how I engage is something new this has brought for me too. I think only good things can come from that for both of us. In a sense we are taking back the right to pleasure or peace. I'm really happy you're challenging this too, don't hesitate to vent on this thread about it if it you need to, at least you know this is a place it will be accepted and understood. I had some difficulties myself last night that I'll post about today.

[Rainbowfairy]

So, last night was tricky. Well, it simply didn't go as swimmingly as before. I had to stop activity twice. My body was getting the pressure cooker swelling feeling (specifically "down there"), I felt pulling and grabbing sensations (not actually happening, but reminiscent of the early stages of abuse when it was disguised as "playing") and it became so intense that I had to stop the activity. The upside is that I didn't just leave my body and engage in ASF to cope with the activity, which is what I believe I was doing previously to deal with uncomfortable sensations/thoughts/feelings. My partner was great about it - an obvious bonus.

So, I used the voice of my new-found-ownership-of-my-sexuality to express my discomfort, my partner knows it is not anything to do with how or what he was doing, and we just moved onto other things.

I did experience a new feeling though - I felt very vulnerable when we had intercourse, which is new (or at least unrecognised up to this point - remember I have only just become aware that I was "leaving" during intercourse also). This one is a double-edged sword, I don't want fear in my sex life, but at the same time, my new awareness and connection to my real feelings during sexual activity are providing me with the opportunity to process them once and for all, instead of dissociating from them through ASF.

So, my perfectionista is stomping her feet and singing songs of failure, but my wounded healer is assuring me its all part of the process of healing.

Hope everyone who is also taking this journey is managing. Don't forget, I would love to hear how you are going with it, this thread is for you too, if you wish to talk about it.

[bigjellybelly]

Well done for not leaving your body to cope.

And oddly, well done for stopping activity. I find this the hardest thing. I still think I should just do it, as a default position. That it's down to me to find a way to enjoy it or tolerate it or cope with it, whether I want to or not. To try to get myself to want to rather than to just accept I might not want to.

This is going to be difficult for us because I haven't yet explained the intricacies of how I feel about this to my partner (although he does understand the seriousness of what I am dealing with) because he may struggle to know what to do about it - I suspect he will be so terrified of upsetting me that he will make a rule for himself not to do anything at all. Which would be very sad because he is far more inclined to show me physically that he loves me or is attracted to me or is grateful for my support or help or even a nice day out or whatever than to tell me verbally, which he struggles with. I will have to find a very literal but very affirming phrase to use.

[Rainbowfairy]

Originally Posted by bigjellybelly

Well done for not leaving your body to cope.

And oddly, well done for stopping activity. I find this the hardest thing. I still think I should just do it, as a default position. That it's down to me to find a way to enjoy it or tolerate it or cope with it, whether I want to or not. To try to get myself to want to rather than to just accept I might not want to.

This is going to be difficult for us because I haven't yet explained the intricacies of how I feel about this to my partner (although he does understand the seriousness of what I am dealing with) because he may struggle to know what to do about it - I suspect he will be so terrified of upsetting me that he will make a rule for himself not to do anything at all. Which would be very sad because he is far more inclined to show me physically that he loves me or is attracted to me or is grateful for my support or help or even a nice day out or whatever than to tell me verbally, which he struggles with. I will have to find a very literal but very affirming phrase to use.

Yes, I understand. I think we are so accustomed to meeting another's needs, and another being in control of our body against our wishes (and that includes when we did not have the capacity to give informed consent, not just force) that we have lost a sense of sex being for US too. I think that by acting more assertively (but gently in our expression to our partners) it will become more natural. I believe we may be, in a sense, rewiring an interrupted developmental stage - the part where the child realises and protects its separateness from others.

I see how tricky it could be to try and avoid upsetting your partner. My understanding of Asperger's is that it leads to problems in understanding and managing social interaction, so yes, I think this will require some deep thought. This may sound silly, but something I have found to be very helpful when communication with a partner is difficult is to write letters to each other. I also find it helpful to organise my own thoughts and communicate more clearly when I am struggling to do so verbally - might be worth trying this with your partner?

I think though that if you talk about it, tell him you may need to stop, and assure him it will not be his fault, and help him understand what you are experiencing, then it shouldn't be too risky "in the heat of the moment". My concern was that it would kill the experience and we'd have to stop everything, but it hasn't, I just use a short statement/question, eg., "I'd like to do something else, is that OK?" and then move immediately on (explaining what happened in that moment can be done "after", as long as it's not too distressing). But, we did have a deep talk about it first, so that would be my starting point, so that it doesn't come out of the blue and that there isn't much room for him to take it personally (because he knows what you are working on).

I guess my partner and I also see it as us against the baddies, so we are viewing it as something "we" are working on - I think this helps him to feel involved and active in the process with me, and avoids him feeling helpless and disconnected from me.

[GenCat]

Wow, this is so inspiring for me and beautiful to me. I am happy for you!

[Rainbowfairy]

Thank you Gencat, I'm glad this thread means something to you too.