[pachyderm]

I am going to try to do something that may upset a lot of people: to attempt to begin a "scientific" examination of sexual abuse. If you think that trying to do such a thing is too horrible, that one should only condemn, not try to understand, then do not read on. It can really be frightening.



But you are curious, aren't you?

What is "science"? The definition in my dictionary that I like best is this: "Knowledge of facts, phenomena, laws, and proximate causes, gained and verified by exact observation, organized experiment, and ordered thinking." According to the dictionary, the root of the word "science" is the Latin "scire" which simply means "to know."

Why does sexual abuse take place? Why does the abuser need someone weaker on which to practice his (or her) trade? What does the abuse "accomplish" for the abuser? What need does it attempt to satisfy?

Please try to set aside for a moment (not deny) the fears that arise when trying to think about such things. Try to think it through. What happens? Why is it happening?

Well, what happens is that an apparently more "powerful" person inflicts sexual hurt upon a weaker, inexperienced one. It seems that the "abuser" needs to do this. It accomplishes for the abuser the satisfaction of a need to express "love" and at the same time to inflict pain. Why would someone need to do both at the same time?

Maybe the real object of the affair is not the actual victim, but somebody else. The actual victim is chosen because he or she is weak and cannot successfully fight back. The "real" object of the attempt to "love" and simultaneously inflict revenge is seen as too "powerful" to attempt to do this to.

But who do I say is the "real" object of the attempt? Someone in the abuser's past who was the object of an attempt to love, but who rejected and repelled the present abuser's efforts when that abuser was young, who denied the love/sexual nature of the attempt because it was seen as too "bad." A parent or other figure seen as a needed love object. Someone who denied love or inflicted abuse him- or her- self.

So abuse or lack of love propagates itself. The person afflicted by intolerable frustration MUST somehow find satisfaction of the need (or feel that he will die emotionally), and since it seems that it cannot be satisfied directly it is satisfied indirectly, through punishment of someone else.

I contend that it is more effective to understand why something happens if you want to make it stop, than to condemn -- as necessary emotionally as that seems to be. Well, condemn, express outrage, fear, a sense of hurt; that's OK too. But if you also understand, you might be able to do something about it.

[Rhapsody]

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pachyderm said:
Well, what happens is that an apparently more "powerful" person inflicts sexual hurt upon a weaker, inexperienced one.

It seems that the "abuser" needs to do this.
It accomplishes for the abuser the satisfaction of a need to express "love" and at the same time to inflict pain.

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While I agree with the definition as to why one would abuse....... I have to question the first reason given for those that abuse - for I do not feel that "needing to express love" is apart of abuse for everyone...... maybe that of a spouse or significant other that sexually abuse their loved one (maybe ?), but not that of the regular run of the mill rapist.

[pachyderm]

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Rhapsody said:
I do not feel that "needing to express love" is apart of abuse for everyone...... maybe that of a spouse or significant other that sexually abuse their loved one (maybe ?), but not that of the regular run of the mill rapist.

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Why would a rapist need to do that act? For I do see it as a need, or compulsion. What need in the rapist is not being met otherwise, that he needs to express it in that way?

I am using "love" to mean something like the need for affection or connection in the broadest possible sense. Its strangled expression is not necessarily nice.

I did not say that these were easy concepts to consider.

[bchlyn]

i can see what you are saying... but i think i agree with rhapsody ...while many of my abusers said they "loved" me what they did was anything but... i am sure some thought they were... but the reality was they used their power to humiliate and degrade and control... at the end of my marriage... it was driven purely by anger ...violence and hatred ... he had no need or desire to express love... it was quite the opposite... when i looked into his eyes all that i saw was pure evil.
lyn

[Kiya]

hmmmm..... a. i thought we weren't allowed to do study type posts in the boards.
b. yes i agree that if we do not know why, then we can't stop it.
c. i agree with rap that a rapist (like off they street type of random violence) doesn't actually "love" the victim - that there is something else there causing it.
d. i think that in the case of abuse happening by a family member or friend, yeah it probably is (for them) as sense of "love" - though twisted.
e. for me... i felt that the reason my dad was like that with me was to prove to himself he wasn't gay. he hated all gay men (not women) with such a passion and sometimes pretended to be gay (that's how he did all his jokes - by hurting someone else), and i knew his sex life with my mom sucked (waaaay too much info for a kid, i tell ya)... so i think he was trying to prove to himself that he "could be good in bed" - even if it was with a 6-11 yr old. it was how he could reclaim his manliness. sick and twisted. he denies it to this day and i fear would kill me if i ever breathed a word. he's an ex-cop, and ex-marine and has to keep up the facade.

[Rhapsody]

Please keep in mind that many rapist "rape" in order to control and humiliate another being and some times these acts even come from their own inner hate of females.

Now with the term "LoVe" being used for affection or needing to emotionally connect with another human being I can see where you are coming from as to why some rapist might partake of this degrading act upon another..... and yet it still does not make it right to take that which was never yours in the first place.

[pachyderm]

I am not doing any kind of study or survey of members here. I am trying to study the subject of abuse, if only because I have experienced it myself. For all of the experiences we have had that caused us great suffering and fear, I think it is important to attempt to understand what is happening, as well as to possess our feelings about it. Anyway, it helps me to heal.

It seems that using the word "love" may have been an error on my part. I am trying to mean the need for connection to other human beings.

Remember what happened to Harlow's infant monkeys when they were deprived of touch and comforting by their monkey mothers? Basically, many of them went "crazy."

[bchlyn]

so if i am understanding you ... you are saying that men or women who abuse... didn't receive the emotional connections they needed to develop healthy attachment with others and in some twisted attempt to counter that they abuse others?....lyn

[pachyderm]

Exactly.

Not easy to think about, when all you are feeling is the terror of your own abuse, is it?

[bchlyn]

well... i understand what you are saying... but they still have the choice to abuse or not to abuse... most abuse survivors didn't have healthy attachment... and most have chosen not to hurt and wound others... so what causes some to cross that line?... i think it's important to understand the reasons for abusive behavior... but not let them off the hook because of it... i have made excuses for my abusers for so long that i need to get to the place that i hold them accountable for what they CHOSE to do... and stop holding myself responsible... does that make sense? because they chose to hurt me i am the one in therapy... i am the one with ptsd and they are seemingly unscathed... lyn

[Jully]

Hmmm...

There are people who have experienced horrible abuse, atrocities, denial of their basic needs, domineering and controlling caretakers, constant criticism and humiliation, etc, who never become abusers.

So my question is, what is the difference between those people and the ones who do become abusers? Why do some people continue the cycle? And why are others able to overcome their inclinations, or never have them to begin with?

That's what I struggle with. I can't imagine treating another the way I was treated. Am I mad at my abusers? Absolutely! Do I feel enraged, lost, humiliated, worthless, confused? Absolutely! Have I ever considered taking my power back by asserting my control over someone else? Never.

So basically, I guess I just will never understand the force that compels someone to abuse. Most of the time, I don't care to understand. Maybe one would have to be/have been an abuser to really understand. At any rate, none of those answers are going to heal me.

[Rhapsody]

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Jully said:
what is the difference between those people and the ones who do become abusers? Why do some people continue the cycle? And why are others able to overcome their inclinations, or never have them to begin with?

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As someone that was sexually, physically and emotionally abused for ten years as a child - I personally decided that I would never hurt another in such a way and in forty years of living I never have.

So to me - the difference is a Choice..... Mind over Matter.

[Kiya]

and yet... we injure ourselves. what made us choose ourselves over injuring others?

NOTE: MAY BE AN UNPOPULAR OPINION

I think that there is something really missing here. Why do you feel the need to understand what happened ---- is this not an intellectual defense mechanism to remove yourself from feeling the pain of what occurred? NO matter how you try to rationalize human behavior, there is no true rationalization. People are cruel. Studies after studies have found no real clear associations about human behavior. Look at all the prison programs geared towards offenders....people try and understand what they did, therapists work with them, but the recividism rate is like 90%.

Truth of the matter is, that many people especially those abused by family members may never have this answer. And is it fair to ask children of abusers to answer this question? No, I don't think so. I think what is important is recognizing that most abusers MADE a choice in their actions, who cares why? They commited a crime and should pay for their choices.

By "thinking about their actions," we are in essence giving them a way out. And if you ask most of them, they did not think about their actions, just what they would get from their behaviors.

The recividism rate is SO high among these people, that they deserve no thought or excuses for their behavior. They deserve to be punished for their crimes, no given excuses.

[RozG]

Am i the only person who finds this thread insulting to SURVIVORS of abuse??? I understand perfectly well WHY my abuser abused me...but understanding that DIDN'T stop him abusing me...oh, pretty please i understand you, don't hurt me...and it DIDN'T / HASN'T helped the healing process any!!! So...if this thread is supposed to help survivors of abuse...i'm obviously too stupid to get it!!!...could somebody explain it to me please?

[versimilitude]

I am also a survivor from in my family and sadly outside as well... I think more often that it is a lack of impulse control and narcisim/psycho/sadistic traits that lead to this. Of course, my dad had three girls, so pleanty of opportunity. It is not a problem in the victim, and it is too easy to start a conversation have someone imply otherwise- even the victim

[bchlyn]

i think that everybody has a different process kalamity...i got pretty triggered when i first read the thread too. (you probably could tell by my post) .. but after i reread it i saw it a little differently... that isn't to say that i think that the abuser isn't responsible or shouldn't be held accountable...

your not stupid... and i hope nothing i said made you feel that way... lyn

[RozG]

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bchlyn said:
i think that everybody has a different process kalamity...i got pretty triggered when i first read the thread too. (you probably could tell by my post) .. but after i reread it i saw it a little differently... that isn't to say that i think that the abuser isn't responsible or shouldn't be held accountable...

your not stupid... and i hope nothing i said made you feel that way... lyn

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((((lyn)))) you've never posted anything that made me feel stupid or bad in any way...i just maybe need to re-read this thread myself...maybe i've took it the wrong way?

take care and stay cool

[bchlyn]

kalamity... wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if kids were just allowed to be kids... were safe and didn't have to survive?... i don't get it...lyn

[RozG]

i don't get it either...i think that's why i got so angry...no matter how much we understand the psychology behind abuse...it wont stop it...((((lyn))))

[bchlyn]

maybe it will... there is power in education... we have to hope that we can change it... i couldn't completely for my children... but i hope i can for my grandbabies... and the children in my class...lyn

[RozG]

((((lyn)))) i have to agree with you there lyn...for the next generation of kids.

[bchlyn]

ANOTHER UNPOPULAR POST

HELLO......education does not HELP!

This has been proven time and time again by the fact that offender programs that offer therapy do not stop the abusers from abusing again. Look up the recidivism rates among these people. IT IS SKYROCKING even though they are educated and given therapy.

Nothing can help these f*ckers.....and to hope they change because of education is a hope. It does not work.

Goto a parole room and watch how smooth they are......ok? THey get out because they have been educated, done their programs, etc and then .......they do it again to someone else.

Please everyone...look up rates of abusers who re-abuse. You will be sick!

[Jazz91]

i agree with riptide on that people never change they might tell you that they have but they soon show there true colours and when they do people get hurt therapy only fixes the problem if the therapist can get the person to be completely open to "educate" them