[seeker1950]

It just occurred to me recently how I grew up in a home where I was hit almost daily. Looking at it, I realized that if one were to visit a home of another relative or close acquaintance and was treated that way, they would never want to return. But, when in a close family situation as a child, one has no choice but to remain. This constant treatment has to impact one's attitudes toward relationships in general.
I can also see how this skewed my attempts at healthy relationships as a young adult and onward. I simply lacked the tools for it. Being trapped in an abusive parent/child relationship really did a number on me. How: by staying in abusive relationships instead of doing the healthy thing and walking away. I realized that I have spent at least HALF of my life recovering from one bad relationship or another. And because I was so conditioned to take it and say nothing as a child, I stayed much longer than a healthy person would have done. Also, and this is the time factor, taking very long periods to recover.
Does this sound familiar to anyone else here?
Patty

[radio_flyer]

For some reason this does sound familiar. Just I can't put my finger on it. I don't recall being hit a lot as a child. But there is something about not saying anything and staying.

I also have a history of bad, abusive relationships. Yet I stayed much longer than a "normal" person would. Normal isn't the right word,just can't think of one that fits better. Anyway, what feelings surface while typing this is it is my fault. It is always my fault. I am bad and I deserve what I get. Which is pretty much what I felt when a boyfriend or husband would be verbally or physically abusive towards me.

Anyway there is something.. just I can't put it together or remember, yet it does feel familiar. hmmmm

[theama]

YES!! Though somewhat different, but definitely yes! Being neglected by my father and abused by my brother, I started believing that THAT was all I was worthy of ever having. That I wasn't worthy of ever being in a healthy relationship, so I'd seek out the "bad seeds" and ignore the good guys. And I stayed. "I can only blame myself for this, this is all I'm ever allowed to have" etc. I too have spent WAY too many years recovering from bad relationships, some of them are my fault though..
If my boyfriend didn't use or abuse me, I'd instigate it myself - and make him dislike me and hurt me. I've gotten a lot better since I realized what I was doing and why I was doing it, so there is hope!
You're not alone in this

Edit: Radio flyer, abuse takes many different forms. Being neglected is one form, you don't have to be hit or sexually abused for it to be considered abuse. What you're saying is classical survivor-mentality. It's my fault, it's always my fault, I deserve this yadayada. Just so you know: NO, YOU DO NOT - and NO, IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! Capitalized for emphasis, it's incredibly hard to accept it - I still struggle with it, I still want to take the blame for it. It could be dangerous to dig into the past, but it might hold some answers.

Does anyone else feel "at home" with being in abusive relationships? I mean in the way that it's almost comfortable; it's what you know, so it's familiar. Being in a healthy relationship is scary. Anyone?

[seeker1950]

Very interesting and insightful responses, RF and Theama...
RF...yes, the feeling that it is "my" fault has been with me most of my life.
I was never EVER allowed to voice a disagreeing viewpoint, ever.
And, yes, Theama, staying much too long. I'm age 58, so the time I have stated in recovering from relationships is very substantial, and not an exaggeration.
Patty

[theama]

We all need to convince ourselves that we deserve so much better, and that NO person deserves to be mistreated this way.

[seeker1950]

Theama...you said,
"If my boyfriend didn't use or abuse me, I'd instigate it myself - and make him dislike me and hurt me. I've gotten a lot better since I realized what I was doing and why I was doing it, so there is hope!
You're not alone in this "

This was so brave of you to state this! I have realized this about myself as well.
Love
Patty

[radio_flyer]

Interesting thread. I don't think I have deliberately tried to anger the "men" that was in my life. Just seemed everything I did angered them.. shrugs shoulders. One boyfriend accused me of sleeping with the neighbor and chased me with a big board, in a rage and wildly swinging at me. Am lucky he didn't hit me or I prob would not be here today. That was one long, big board. shudders just thinking about it. That night I walked five miles to the nearest hotel. Odd thing is I was the one working and paying all the bills. All he did was drink. Yet I was so in love. omg how dumb can we be.

I think "in my case" I seem to gravitate to that which is familiar, even if it is not healthy. Now that I understand this, I don't "gravitate" to many situations or folks. Back then, I never knew what was happening to me was abuse. I was too ashamed to talk about it because it would let others know how bad and worthless I was because if I wasn't bad then I would not be getting hit. geesh.. not the greatest logic...

I never knew I was in abusive relationships. I just did not understand what I was doing wrong or why these awful things were happening to me. When I was in my mid 40s, I started therapy, and that is when I learned my past relationships were abusive. The reason I did not know is because it is what I knew. But for the life of me, I do not know the "why" this would be so familiar to me in regards to childhood.

I am not sure if being in a healthy relationship is scary to me, basically because I have never been in a healthy relationship. But I can say I've felt very uncomfortable in situations that were "prob" healthy and I would shy or run from them. Gessh, put me in a church pew and I will feel dizzy and squirm. Most churches are healthy environments. As with some of the men I was attracted to in the past, which might have been a healthy relationship, I seemed to shy away from them feeling that I was not "good" enough for them. ... geesh.. no wonder most of my life was messed up with that kind of thinking. Even when opportunities on previous jobs were practically handed to me, I would never feel good enough to fill the shoes that these folks saw in me and I'd end up screwing up the opportunity.

I even had some nice guys say they wished they met me before I was screwed up. Thaat I'd am a really nice person, and worthy of good things. Just I do not see it. Geesh the negative things that take control of our lives. Is sad.... I am more positive these days. Just lay low most of the time and am very careful.

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by theama

YES!! Though somewhat different, but definitely yes! Being neglected by my father and abused by my brother, I started believing that THAT was all I was worthy of ever having. That I wasn't worthy of ever being in a healthy relationship, so I'd seek out the "bad seeds" and ignore the good guys. And I stayed. "I can only blame myself for this, this is all I'm ever allowed to have" etc. I too have spent WAY too many years recovering from bad relationships, some of them are my fault though..
If my boyfriend didn't use or abuse me, I'd instigate it myself - and make him dislike me and hurt me. I've gotten a lot better since I realized what I was doing and why I was doing it, so there is hope!
You're not alone in this

Edit: Radio flyer, abuse takes many different forms. Being neglected is one form, you don't have to be hit or sexually abused for it to be considered abuse. What you're saying is classical survivor-mentality. It's my fault, it's always my fault, I deserve this yadayada. Just so you know: NO, YOU DO NOT - and NO, IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! Capitalized for emphasis, it's incredibly hard to accept it - I still struggle with it, I still want to take the blame for it. It could be dangerous to dig into the past, but it might hold some answers.

Does anyone else feel "at home" with being in abusive relationships? I mean in the way that it's almost comfortable; it's what you know, so it's familiar. Being in a healthy relationship is scary. Anyone?

Wow...all I can say is wow lightbulb moment here... Been in therapy for years and don't remember ANYONE saying this to me! So you are telling me that this is why I feel comfortable in abusive relationships... I, as a child, was never able to question anything and so I just shut up and turned the pain inward. It never dawned on me...I mean I knew it was because of low selfesteem...but not because I was comfortable based on my up bringing...total dysfunction. Myself and my siblings are all totally dysfunctional...all in bad relationships...

I'm living with my ex...platonic...he's helping me with my dd...but it is an abusive relationship in the sense that he is totally using me and I know it and complain but do nothing...I asked him to come! I say that I'm doing it because I need help with her because I am floundering and she needs a positive role model...not a maniac...in some ways he is that...in others he is not! I guess I'm at a crossroads because I think about this all day...should he go or should he stay... I want better for myself and my dd...12...but am uncertain what better is at this point...at least not until I actually get better! If he could be gainfully employed for any length of time I would probably send her to stay with him, but he cannot seem to keep a job so I don't think there is a choice here...??

I'm difficult to live with as well...so I can't say that I'm not part of the problem...

Thanks for the insight though!

TJ

[Sannah]

Wow, what a soul baring thread...... Radio, I know what you are talking about when you say that you are uncomfortable with healthy. When you feel you have little worth you certainly don't want healthy people looking closely at you. Unhealthy people do not look closely so you are safe from them really "seeing" you. But healthy people see and it reflects back to us and it's almost like a magnifying glass. Yes, it makes you squirm from discomfort. But you know what? This feeling unworthy is not a fact. All that it is is a belief that we formed because we were mistreated by very unhealthy people. It is not a fact! This belief can be changed....

[theama]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

Theama...you said,
"If my boyfriend didn't use or abuse me, I'd instigate it myself - and make him dislike me and hurt me. I've gotten a lot better since I realized what I was doing and why I was doing it, so there is hope!
You're not alone in this "

This was so brave of you to state this! I have realized this about myself as well.
Love
Patty

Fantastic! I mean, it's horrible - but fantastic that you've realized it! It's impossible to fix something if you don't know what you're dealing with.

skeeweeaka: it was an enormous lightbulb moment for me when I first realized it. I literally went "...Oooooooh", it was as if I had all the pieces of the puzzle but I wasn't able to put them together until then.
Heh, "Should I stay or should I go?" by The Clash is a song I've played way, way too much. Stop telling yourself that you're at fault, and try to look at your behavior from an objective perspective. Things will fall into place eventually, but you gotta stop self-sabotaging and fogging up your perspective.

Sannah is so right, we've created this feeling of worthlessness ourselves - so it's up to us to change that, and we CAN!
I don't know about the rest of you, but for me it was like a series of trigger-points and everything was connected; "I act this way because of that, then that behavior led to that which started that, then that happened and that made that worse" and so on. 10 years of history of abuse right in front of me, and I was blaming it all on me and sabotaging my life.

Google for "self sabotage abuse " and "self destructive abuse" and you'll find a whole lotta great pages. Self-sabotage is something I'd never heard of before, but as I was reading about it I went "I do that.. that to.. yes, yes and that, oh and that"

"Self-sabotage behavior is most recognizable by the experience of an internal "tug-of-war" between having a desire to do something and feeling like you can't or shouldn't do it. Any time you hear yourself say, "I want to do this, but I can't or I shouldn't!" this is the inner conflict of self-sabotage behavior.""

"Self-sabotage behavior damages your self-esteem and causes you to lose confidence in yourself. It can create feelings of frustration, discouragement, resentment, anger and panic.
Most significantly, it stops you from doing and having the things you really want for your life!
What do you want that you don't have?
Do you long to be in a loving, caring, committed relationship?
Do you crave financial security, or maybe even financial abundance?
Do you pray for emotional peace and happiness?
Do you long to find a career you really love, or perhaps long to be successfully self-employed?
Do you have an agonizing desire to lose weight and love your body?

Do you wish you could quit smoking and/or drinking?

Do you yearn to feel like your time spent here on earth has meaning and value?
Well, why don’t you "just do it?"
It isn’t as simple as "just doing it" because desire isn’t enough to create what you want if you have internal conflicting beliefs surrounding your desired goals."

I want to be in a loving, stable relationship. I also want to lose weight and love my body. I've sabotaged every single chance I've had at that "I'm not worthy of being pretty" --my words, right before I munch on some cake. "I'm not good enough for him" --my words, right before I break up with him.

Y'all might want to look into self-sabotage, it can explain a lot of things.

[theama]

I hope more people read this thread; the more lightbulb-moments it creates, the better. That's why I love forums like this, if we weren't a group of people sharing the same problems and working towards a common goal - we'd be all alone on our journey and it would take a lot longer to reach our goal.
And it's awesome to know that you're not alone!

[radio_flyer]

Sannah-- you said "Unhealthy people do not look closely so you are safe from them really "seeing" you. But healthy people see and it reflects back to us and it's almost like a magnifying glass."

Wow.. did this ever hit "home". Guess I never thought of it the way you said it, but oh how true it is. Healthy people "do" see and it reflects back to us as you said, like a magnifying glass.

Come to think of it... ... A lot to think about..

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by theama

Fantastic! I mean, it's horrible - but fantastic that you've realized it! It's impossible to fix something if you don't know what you're dealing with.

skeeweeaka: it was an enormous lightbulb moment for me when I first realized it. I literally went "...Oooooooh", it was as if I had all the pieces of the puzzle but I wasn't able to put them together until then.
Heh, "Should I stay or should I go?" by The Clash is a song I've played way, way too much. Stop telling yourself that you're at fault, and try to look at your behavior from an objective perspective. Things will fall into place eventually, but you gotta stop self-sabotaging and fogging up your perspective.

Sannah is so right, we've created this feeling of worthlessness ourselves - so it's up to us to change that, and we CAN!
I don't know about the rest of you, but for me it was like a series of trigger-points and everything was connected; "I act this way because of that, then that behavior led to that which started that, then that happened and that made that worse" and so on. 10 years of history of abuse right in front of me, and I was blaming it all on me and sabotaging my life.

Google for "self sabotage abuse " and "self destructive abuse" and you'll find a whole lotta great pages. Self-sabotage is something I'd never heard of before, but as I was reading about it I went "I do that.. that to.. yes, yes and that, oh and that"

"Self-sabotage behavior is most recognizable by the experience of an internal "tug-of-war" between having a desire to do something and feeling like you can't or shouldn't do it. Any time you hear yourself say, "I want to do this, but I can't or I shouldn't!" this is the inner conflict of self-sabotage behavior.""

"Self-sabotage behavior damages your self-esteem and causes you to lose confidence in yourself. It can create feelings of frustration, discouragement, resentment, anger and panic.
Most significantly, it stops you from doing and having the things you really want for your life!

What do you want that you don't have?
Do you long to be in a loving, caring, committed relationship?
Do you crave financial security, or maybe even financial abundance?
Do you pray for emotional peace and happiness?
Do you long to find a career you really love, or perhaps long to be successfully self-employed?
Do you have an agonizing desire to lose weight and love your body?

Do you wish you could quit smoking and/or drinking?

Do you yearn to feel like your time spent here on earth has meaning and value?
Well, why don’t you "just do it?"
It isn’t as simple as "just doing it" because desire isn’t enough to create what you want if you have internal conflicting beliefs surrounding your desired goals."

I want to be in a loving, stable relationship. I also want to lose weight and love my body. I've sabotaged every single chance I've had at that "I'm not worthy of being pretty" --my words, right before I munch on some cake. "I'm not good enough for him" --my words, right before I break up with him.

Y'all might want to look into self-sabotage, it can explain a lot of things.

It was in fact a "lightbulb" moment for me! Honestly, I just chalked it up to self-esteem...low...a result of being abused... But was never really able to connect the fact that I stay in relationships even though I am not being treated well, unbalanced relationships...I stick it out like a real pro...because that is what I knew growing up...because that is what is comfortable! Honestly, when someone is nice to me...it throws me totally for a loop! I'm scratching my head wondering what is their motive!

Yeah that song seems to be in my head a lot lately...but I divorced him and had I not gotten ill would have NEVER looked back! Now that I'm struggling, I need help with my 12 yo dd...but I am working to get better! I know for sure that I deserve better, but a healthy person wouldn't stay around long in the condition that I am in.

Self-sabotage...well that seems to be my middle name... I want this but...I constantly second guess myself. That, my dear, has been my problem all of my life! The relationship is grossly unbalanced, but my dd loves her father and so I keep trying to endured the pain I feel because he is around and I am allowing him to use me! I've always felt "not good enough!"

TJ

[youOme]

not neccesarily physical for me, but def. verbal....

[skeeweeaka]

I took your suggestion and did a search on self sabotage and this is what I found...http://www.topachievement.com/guyfinley.html.

What I found interesting was this passage,

"Any person you feel the need to control or dominate - so that he or she will treat you as you "think" you should be treated will always be in control of you and treat you accordingly. Why? Because anyone from whom you want something, psychologically speaking, is always in secret command of you."

Also this...

Following are ten examples of where you may be secretly sabotaging yourself while wrongly assuming you're strengthening your position with others.

1. Fawning before people to win their favor.
2. Expressing contrived concern for someone's well being.
3. Making small talk to smooth out the edges.
4. Hanging onto someone's every word.
5. Looking for someone's approval.
6. Asking if someone is angry with you.
7. Fishing for a kind word.
8. Trying to impress someone.
9. Gossiping.
10. Explaining yourself to others.

Although I don't understand how explaining yourself is "self-sabotage."

This site was also interesting... http://www.angeresources.com/sabotage.html Better yet here is...

Self-Sabotage -- Why Good People Hurt Themselves

by Mike Obsatz

What is self-sabotage? It is when people who seem to have everything going for them engage in some foolish behavior that either kills them, hurts them, or gets them into trouble. People use drugs, break the law, steal, starve themselves, find and stay in abusive relationships, cheat on their spouse, drive too fast, drink themselves to death, overeat, don't exercise, push people away, or don't go to the doctor when they get
sick.

Perhaps they may not consciously want to destroy themselves or die. But unconsciously, somewhere inside them, there is a death wish. Freud said that everyone has a death wish, a desire to die, a love of death, thanatos. But I believe some people are more prone to self-sabotage than others.
As a child, everyone wants to be loved and accepted. Some children receive unconditional love from their parents, and are told, "We love you. We want you. We are proud of you. We will nurture you." Other children are unwanted, a nuisance, and unloved. They are told either verbally or nonverball, "We don't want you. We wish you weren't here. You are a bother, a burden. We wish you would disappear." Some
groups in society, such as gays, Blacks, and the poor are also told by those in power, "We don't accept you. We wish you would just disappear, go away, die. We will pretend you don't exist. We hate you. We will ostracize, and deny you any rights."
Some parents encourage self-sabotage by telling their children, "We will not protect you." These parents don't teach their kids coping skills, so their kids don't learn how to survive in a sometimes hostile and frightening world. By not teaching these skills to their children, the parents are communicating that they don't care whether or not their children can cope. Other children are brought up with an unrealistically excessive idea of their own power. They believe they are capable of the impossible and that the world revolves around them. Still other children grow up feeling totally powerless over situations that occur around them. Having either a sense of too much power or no power can cause a child to misjudge situations and hurt themselves in the process.

Internalization of invisibility messages is what happens to children. They believe that if their parents don't want them around, or if the society wants them to die or disappear, that they are worthless and should do just that. This internalization process results in people not valuing their own existence. Self-sabotaging behavior is the result of an internalized death wish. We can see it statistically in the younger death
rates for African-American and Native American males, and the higher suicide rates for gay adolescents. When children lack skills, they don't learn how to cope with
strangers, complicated situations, disappointments, abuses or violations of their boundaries. If they lack assertiveness and discernment, they are more prone to "accidentally" die or put themselves in dangerous situations.

Self-sabotage is the result of an internalized death wish or an inability to take care of oneself in the world. Some marginalized people destroy themselves out of despair. Some Blacks die in gang wars. Some Native Americans drink themselves to death. Being abused reinforces the death wish since the abuser uses the victim, and does not see the victim as a person in their own right. Abused people begin to believe that the abuse is "their fault," and they punish themselves through self-sabotaging behavior.
People who feel worthless are often shamed by their parents and others. They are told they are not good enough. These people may continue to engage in self-sabotaging behaviors to maintain their shame. This validates that they actual are worthless. Maintaining shame perpetuates the death wish. Shame is almost always related to addictive behavior, suicide, and other forms of self-sabotage.

Self-sabotaging people need to be re-parented by people who will love, nurture, and validate them for who they are. They also need to realize that if someone in their lives wanted them to die, they don't have to internalize that death wish. In other words, those who hurt them were wrong, and they are not worthless. Healing from shame involves knowing that one is loved spiritually and emotionally, and realizing that all children are worthy and children of the universe.
This healing process can be done in support groups, in therapy, through journaling and letter writing. It often takes a long time to heal the internalization of shame and the death wish. People need to learn coping skills, and develop the will to live and thrive.

Frequently, self-sabotaging people vent anger inappropriately. They are angry at those who abused or limited them. They are angry about not being loved. They become angry at others who are loved. They may express anger toward those who try to love them. Anger is part of self-sabotaging behavior. It may be hidden as depression, or come out in violent behavior. But the self-hatred of self-sabotage usually manifests itself in some forms of inappropriate anger.
Movies such as "Ordinary People" and "Good Will Hunting" deal with self-sabotage, the internalization of shame, self-hatred, and acting out in anger. They can be useful tools in the healing process.

Probably twenty percent of the population engage in self-sabotaging behaviors regularly. At least that percent of people vent their anger inappropriately at themselves or others. We understand how to heal this pain, and help people reclaim their wholeness, and their desire to live and do well in the world.

© Dr. Michael Obsatz


TJ

[Sannah]

When you explain yourself you are putting yourself into a position of weakness. I'm not talking about a discussion with a friend or a close loved one. I'm talking about when you start explaining yourself and you feel yourself sinking before them. Some people can just think what they want to think!

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by Sannah

When you explain yourself you are putting yourself into a position of weakness. I'm not talking about a discussion with a friend or a close loved one. I'm talking about when you start explaining yourself and you feel yourself sinking before them. Some people can just think what they want to think!

My ex says I do this all of the time... I think it's because I want people to know my heart and not misinterpret what I am trying to say or suggest...so I guess in some way I am diminishing myself when I do this???

TJ

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by skeeweeaka

so I guess in some way I am diminishing myself when I do this???

Yes.......

[seeker1950]

Sannah, This is an interesting point...about explaining oneself. I have always done this, more in the past when I was less aware of the causes, but still do it to some extent.
When I was in counseling in my mid 30's with the therapist who pointed out to me that I had been abused (which I had never acknowledged or realized till he said it), he asked me the question, "How do you think this abuse has affected your behavior?" I had to answer I didn't know. His answer: "It makes you anxious." I have come to believe that one way anxiety manifests itself is this need to over-explain one's actions, statements or intentions.
Patty

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

Sannah, This is an interesting point...about explaining oneself. I have always done this, more in the past when I was less aware of the causes, but still do it to some extent.
When I was in counseling in my mid 30's with the therapist who pointed out to me that I had been abused (which I had never acknowledged or realized till he said it), he asked me the question, "How do you think this abuse has affected your behavior?" I had to answer I didn't know. His answer: "It makes you anxious." I have come to believe that one way anxiety manifests itself is this need to over-explain one's actions, statements or intentions.
Patty

WOW Patty, I think you're right! Thanks for the insight EVERYONE!

TJ

[salukigirl]

I agree. Mine wasn't an abusive parent/child relationship in the form of physicaly abuse. Mine was seeing my father abuse my mother (and step-mother) constantly, mostly emotionally. I never saw any physical abuse but I heard them fighting and screaming all the time. So when I was unhappy in relationships and fought constantly I thought it was normal. Then I saw other couples who didn't do that and who resolved their fights and realized that it wasn't. I was also in a physically abusive relationship. Although it only lasted about 6 months I still have flashbacks and can't do things with my boyfriend that normal couples might do like playfight because I always feel like he's going to hit me.

I also agree that growing up in this environment kind of leads us to bring on unhealthy relationships. I know that I developed an extremely poor image of myself from my ex and seeing my parents like that. And Ive ruined healthy relationships because of it. Im just now seeing that relationships can be fun and don't have to be awful and constant fighting but it took my initiative to start convincing myself that I deserved better. And once I started to get that confidence, I was treated better by everyone around me.

So I guess my main idea is that we do need to realize that none of that was our faults and that we all deserve better than that. And once we realize that, it makes way for us to have truly healthy relationships.

[theama]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

Sannah, This is an interesting point...about explaining oneself. I have always done this, more in the past when I was less aware of the causes, but still do it to some extent.
When I was in counseling in my mid 30's with the therapist who pointed out to me that I had been abused (which I had never acknowledged or realized till he said it), he asked me the question, "How do you think this abuse has affected your behavior?" I had to answer I didn't know. His answer: "It makes you anxious." I have come to believe that one way anxiety manifests itself is this need to over-explain one's actions, statements or intentions.
Patty

Omg. Lightbulb-moment for me here. I've always done that; explaining myself and my behavior more than I have to.. 'cause that's how I'm used to surviving. If I mess up, I explain everything in detail and say I'm sorry - even if it wasn't my fault. It's very "Yes hun, you're right hun, I'm sorry hun". Ugh.

[notz]

Wow! I relate to so much. Thanks for everything that's been shared.

notz

[skeeweeaka]

I reread that post about self sabotage and I can tell you that I live an ANGRY, constantly pushing the good and the bad away... I'm angry with the people I love and angry with the people I don't love... I guess ultimately that I am angry because I don't feel worthy of love... I haven't found a way to love myself....and wonder if I ever will. I've read books, been in therapy forever, and tried all of that cognitive therapy but loving myself is something that I still am unable to do...

TJ

[Sannah]

TJ, this is good stuff to understand about yourself. Is this something that you have just recently discovered?