in terms of sexual attractiveness, just how horrible is it to be fat?

There is a line, that's true. But in Hamster's case, she is only 35 lbs over weight, which is not the "damn" phase just yet. I see people in the damn phase at work sometimes. People with BMI of 60+. And, working in the field I do, I know it's all about body chemistry and also genetics as well as lifestyle.

We have a patient who is 5'8", 110 lbs if that. Jogs daily. Eats a healthy diet. And she got type 2. How? That's supposed to be the "fat" illness. We also had a triathalon runner in the best shape, excellent diet get type 2. He was extremely angry. But, just recently, we saw a woman who was over 400 lbs. Her cholesterol is perfect, just got pre-diabetes, and only just barely, (like one point over the 'normal' range.) So... it's not just fat that causes all this. It does factor in, yes. But, there's a lot to it we don't understand.

You would not believe whom I saw today! Well, I have had quite a day. Quite a day. First, I received a citation from a police officer in the city of Palo Alto, CA (a very low crime, high cost of living city where the policemen have nothing better to do than give citations to pedestrians) for crossing an empty street on a red light! I will know in two weeks how much the citation will cost me. Damn! An "on foot" violation. I have never had one! Damn it, I was not even in a rush - I had plenty of time and could have waited. Oh well! Now I guess for at least some while I will patiently wait for the green light, even though in my city I have never heard of a pedestrian being cited. So... then I went for a complimentary consult with a laser liposuction surgeon, and then I went to see a marijuana doctor. Two non-standard doctors in one Saturday!

So in a matter of less than a week I went from being a person who would never consider a lipo to being a person who is getting informed. Unbelievable!

Here is how it happened.

Last year I started laser hair removal at a laser clinic in Palo Alto. The process went extremely well (it is very liberating to not have to shave and I consider it money well spent) and I wanted to leave a rave Yelp review. Before leaving my review, I read the existing reviews. I learned that the clinic does an array of procedures besides hair removal. Most of them are for skin care. I do not need them - I have good skin. I just glanced over without reading. I did read a review of an abdominal laser liposuction complete with Before and After pictures. It was interesting, but not something I would consider.

Fast forward to now. I went back and reread the review more carefully, learning that each fall the clinic runs a special. Because I am of a high opinion of this clinic based on my experience with the hair removal, which is not only effective but also practically painless, and because the review is very positive, I decided that if I do opt to have the procedure, I will choose this clinic. I will not shop around. Plus, I am limited in terms of transportation and the clinic is near a train station.

After rereading the review I emailed the clinic asking whether they are running a special now and to quote me the prices. They replied that they are running a special but since each case is individual they do not quote prices over email, but can offer me a consult. I asked if the doctor can see me on a Saturday and she offered me a slot this morning.

I emailed my GP asking her what I should be cautious about, and she said "anesthesia". She said to get the name of the anesthetic and run it by the p-doc because the anesthetic can affect mood. Then I did some web searches and found a list of questions to ask a laser surgeon. About ten questions. I added about ten questions that I myself came up with and went in.

I found the doctor refreshingly honest. He talked about reasonable expectations. He said that the procecure is done primarily to improve the look in clothes. The look in a bathing suit - not so much (he did not talk about the look in the nude, but I concluded that it would be even worse than the look in a bathing suit, by extension). He said that the higher the area being worked on, the better the outcome. Arms come out very nicely. Abdomen - OK. Thighs - not so good. I asked about inner thighs because it bothers me that I cannot wear a skirt for more than a day at a stretch since my inner thighs rub against each other to the point of irritation. This is a shame since I love the feminine look of skirts, especially floor-length skirts. He said that he can remove the rubbing and improve the shape but the skin would become wrinkled. I immediately decided against having the procedure on the thighs because I value my sensitive, thin, smooth skin down there. I guess I will need to just try putting petroleum jelly before putting on skirts and see if it works to prevent irritation. No wrinkled skin - no, thanks. That one way easy. So again, I liked that the doctor did not behave like a salesman. He gave me honest info that enabled me to quickly decide not to pay money to him - nice.

So arms would be a nice to have (California has a long season for sleeveless tops) but abdomen and the waist are a must. I do not think that exercise alone can undo what my third pregnancy did to me. I was really huge and I delivered a 9 lb baby! The doctor said that yes, having children is very hard on the body. He said that since I have only a few stretchmarks, the skin would tighten nicely post-surgery. He found the muscles good, too, but added that abdominal exercises would be good because the better the muscles, the better the outcome of the procedure. I hate abdominal exercises!

For some reason I thought that abdominal lipo runs about 10K. I do not even know why I thought that. No - if I pay in October, it would be 3.5K. The procedure takes 4 hours so the price seems reasonable. Outside of their yearly October special, the price is 5K.

The doctor uses Lidocaine for anesthesia, aided by Ativan and Vicodin. I said that I respond to Klonopin better than to Ativan and have my own, and he said that it is OK. I gave him my list of drugs and he said that he does not know of any interactions, but asking the p-doc would be best.

The best time to have the surgery is when the patient has stabilized her weight. That does not describe me - I have lost some weight recently and may lose more. So now is not a good timing. Most likely I will wait until next October doing what I can: biking to work, Metformin, possibly Topomax, jogging on the treadmill - and then treat myself to the procedure.

The procedure leaves marks from the incisions. The doctor chooses hideaway places for the incisions but, he said, "if someone looks closely they would notice". So, I take it, you do not have to disclose having done the procedure to bystanders but sexual partners would know. Oh well!

Only 4-5 lbs of weight gets to be taken out; it is more body contouring than weight loss. He said that he can remove fat from the waist to restore the original hourglass line.

I can do 3.5K on credit and pay down within a year.

I think it is reasonable to give myself one year to trim down using non-surgical methods and then finish it off with the surgery.

To Venus: Rubens' women are ueberfat, and given his popularity in his day and age I take it that ueberfat was at some point "in". The tastes do change with the times. Both in Medieval ages and during the Flapper period in the 1920s flat chests were "in", but now women get breast implants much more frequently than breast reductions.

A propos of breasts: the doctor asked me if I have natural breasts! At first I was flabbergasted - for a second. No one had asked me this question before! Then I figured that seeing a potential consumer of lipo in front of him, he is entitled to assuming that the breasts may be fake.

That's all; quite a transformation. And, I am not manic - I am perfectly stable. Deciding to postpone a big purchase by one year is clearly not manic.

Would I be doing it for a man? No, for myself! I am tired of not feeling like a woman; I want my curves back. Everything that contributed to the current state of affairs is now a thing of the past. Sedentary lifestyle is a thing of the past - I mostly stand or lie down to use the computer and I walk quite a bit. Overeating is gone. Depakote is gone. Zyprexa is gone. So... it is OK to remove the evidence of that past.

I guess I will have to warm up to core exercises - I want to do what is in my power to improve the outcome.

Wow, talk about a thread I never thought I'd be posting in...
Thanks, BlueInanna, this says much of what I was thinking finally reading all (11!) pages of this thread. Re: commenting on the daughters. From family experience I can tell you that this is most assuredly NOT a good sign. Re: skinny woman as boys (and again, no harm Momma, love ya), a story. After dropping out of university due to first massive depression and taking a job at McD's, I had a supervisor (female!) who teased me saying, "oh, nevermind the heat, you could go mow the law topless and they'd say hey, who's that boy?" That was 21 years ago and it still rings in my ears. But back to your situation... Honest to God, who do these guys think they are anyway?! Olympic judges holding up the number cards?! F*** 'em. And I most assuredly don't mean literally. Because...tell it, Anika...
Amen! Double standard much?
Thank you Anika for finding the exact word that eluded me: pandering. The fact that women feel they need to is a really sad commentary. What's more, the men that think this should be a given are just pathetic s.o.b.s and do not deserve the time of day. Not only do the tables need to be turned, so do the hormones, because isn't is just convenient the testosterone-aided firm leg muscles even among the sedentary. Now... heheh, I'm sure this is coming off as some irate man-hating heavy-set woman rant. Indeed not. I'm downright scrawny (and yes, at 49, so don't want to hear the age thing) and I have always been more comfortable with men as friends, and no two ways about it, the other way too. I don't hate men at all. I adore them. But like anything else, there are good people, and then there are asses. (And there are good ones out there, there truly are.)
Also worth nothing... I am 6 years older than my BF, and he is far cooler with my body/age issues than I am. In reverse, I had pause at the beginning, as he is physically different than what I loosely thought of as "my type". But I quickly came to adore, and even consider major turn on because it is him. It's not the what. It's the who.
OMG, I love this! Lol. "Control" is a very good word. What else could it be called when someone takes advantage of another's insecurities to manipulate them? And increase insecurity for what will likely be escalating expectations. How convenient.
Yes. Hamster, I've definitely picked up in your postings an analytical bent. And this is great to bring to the table. HOWEVER. Just because someone is starkly honest does not make what they say true. Honest and true might seem to be the same, but what someone honestly thinks doesn't automatically make it TRUE in objective reality.
And, forgive my inner cynic, or, more accurately, observer of behavior... Someone can say they honestly think something. And it can be total B.S.. They have simply learned that saying so gets them what they want. Sorry. It happens. And with what can be otherwise very sweet people...
Another thing I never thought I'd be commenting on It's not an issue for me, but I'd imagine that solution to be messy. Consider the fabric of the skirts... yeah, might not look great. Tip: try a comfy pair of shorts underneath. Obviously nothing involving thick fabric, zippers, pockets etc, just a lightweight elasticized waistband kind of thing.. I dunno, like jammie shorts? Silky sorts to not get ride-up?

I totally agree. My cholesterol is BELOW norm, my blood sugar is borderline low, and my blood pressure is low. These are accepted markers of good health. It is a misconception to assume that a fat person is necessarily unhealthy.

I will try shapewear shorts underneath skirts, that should be a good solution. Much less expensive than a lipo and does not make the skin look wrinkled.

In re: double standard: there is a double standard. It is evident in what happens as people age. When I was in my twenties, I had a number of lovers older than my parents, more than twice my age. One of them I was madly in love with. They somehow were able to get a beautiful 20+ year old girl into bed. How often does the reverse happen? Sometimes, but not as nearly as often as "older man, younger woman" couples. D. is 14 years older than I am and back then, it was a huge difference but now the difference is barely perceptible. His wife, if I can call a wife someone who sees him only several times a year? Some 20 years younger than he is. They went to school for a second (in her case, third) degree together. And it is not unheard of - it is not as if he were the only man to be married to someone 20 years his junior. The guy I was so in love with is 28 years my senior and his oldest son is one year my senior. So these things just happen and happen rather frequently but the opposite is rather rare, which shows a pervasive double standard. It is much easier for a man to age. They do not even care to cover the grey. They can get away with the grey. The man I was so in love with was grey-bearded. How many women with flowing grey hair do you see coupled up with young men in the streets? Not many.

Women, from their end, discriminate based on an immutable physical characteristic: the size of a male package. Women, at least many of them, prefer mightier packages. That makes it tough for men who are less favorably endowed, as evident by the flurry of spam emails in my work inbox (my personal accounts are with GMAIL and Yahoo that are both effective spam filterers, but Outlook mail at work... horrendous is the word) - emails that promise bigger erections. Every day I receive multiple emails promising bigger erections... I do not receive spam emails promising breast enhancement, even though breast enhancement is at least technically possible, whereas bigger erections (outside of smoking cessation) are not possible. So I conclude that there are more hang-ups about men's size than about breast size in women. I take the amount of junk mail as an indicator. A market indicator, so to speak. And with breasts, there is at least some variety of tastes: my father and another guy I know prefer small-breasted women. They find them esthetically better and more arousing. That is fair: a variety of tastes matches the variety of human form. I have not seen a woman who would say that she would actually prefer a smaller erection. Indiffirent, sure, but a preference? So life is unfair to men, too. Also, and I am basing my judgment on my sole point of contact with pop culture - the displays of cover pages of magazines in the grocery store while I am waiting in line - men are just as concerned with their belly size as women these days. And that's a huge shift! I do not recall seeing "Men's Health" with advice on how to trim the belly even ten years ago. "Cosmo" with countless advice on sex - yes, has been a staple, but not "Men's Health". That's a new thing! In the past, it was mostly a gay man's concern - not any more.

These are just my observations - I am not trying to lead to any conclusion.

Things can be much worse than with me. At least I am white and there are a lot of fat white people, just as there are a lot of fat Hispanics and Blacks. But not Asians. Asians are normally thin.

I have a colleague, Chris, who is very fat. His fat is outside of this chair when Chris sits. He also has a double chin. So his situation is far worse than mine. But he is doing OK, working, raising a small child with his wife (so, I conclude, they must have an active sex life or at least had had until very recently).

We were in meeting together and we talked about diet while waiting for other people to join. He is on a "caveman diet", but he eats rice since rice is what he has been culturally brought up to eat. He must be an American born Asian person (I am bad telling the specific ethnicities so I am not even trying to guess it) because he does not have an accent. I shared that I eat a low carbohydrate diet which to some extent is similar to the "caveman diet" but less restrictive, and I do not eat wheat to the extent I can help it, but eat rye daily because that is what I have been culturally brought up to eat. You cannot give up eating something that is culturally important to you, we found.

It must be really hard for him because being fat is so unusual given his cultural background.

So no liposuction for me: I am already using my credit to pay a lawyer in a visitation battle. So liposuction is out.

D. annoyed me asking me over Skype when I would start losing weight. Out of the blue! We talk on Skype virtually daily, why today!

I said that I still have not received my new Topamax. He said: "Sure, so doctors are at fault."

What??

But I have more important things going to be stressing over this one.

Have some news in this department.

Enter two new guys.

Both I have known for over 10 years as friends, but now as sexual partners.

One is 35, lives in Maine, and it is over Skype (my first time using Skype in this way).

The other is 46 and lives in my city. RL sex.

And both are perfectly fine with my body as it is. Even though they, too, saw me much thinner. No comments from them about how good looking I was back then and how fat I am now - nothing of this sort. Everything is just fine for them NOW.

I cannot help noticing that in my little sample people in their 30s and 40s are OK with me while people in the 50s (who, you'd think, would be more accepting) are not at all OK with me. Go figure!

I think younger generations are being taught more and more to be acceppting, tollerant, and to seek truth in their life. At least I hope so.

Hammy glad you have some new men in your life. Ones that like you for you too boot!

Thank you! I cannot begin to describe how nice it is not to be criticized all the time!

Well I was criticized this morning by D. over Skype... to no end. So I have drafted a letter to him. I am in no rush with sending it. I might never send it, deciding to put up with the way he is treating me instead. But it was good for me to draft it, and I welcome your feedback.

Warning: sexually explicit material.

"I asked you today to stop talking about dieting until you have a perfectly flat tummy. You agreed and then broke the agreement twice and I had to remind you. This is not acceptable to me. Also, you said that your job has a gym. I was under the impression that you are a poor overworked guy who does not have an opportunity to work out conveniently. Now I learn that all this time you have had the luxury of working out and still have not done anything to have a decent midsection. This is despicable. I like seeing tall erections against perfectly flat tummies - that is my thing. Please provide it ASAP, OK?

Until you can provide it - and I mean a perfectly flat tummy with no excuses - I want to banish all talk about how I look, how much I weigh, what I eat, etc. By banish I mean that you would never ever even come close to mentioning these topics. I can tell you that your idea about dieting is a delusion and you need weight-neutral Geodon for that. I will not mention it again because I think that my obligation to you as a friend is fulfilled by my pointing out to you that such an idea, especially given that you are a medical doctor, is a delusion, and recommending treatment. There is nothing more that I can do for you. I do not discuss delusions and will not try to persuade you that you need to eat normally and exercise - I know all too well that the only effective treatment for delusions is an AP.

I can also tell you that if you did not realize that one day you will hear me say what I am saying now, you are a complete idiot. I do not know how to help with that; AP's are not effective against idiocy. Delusions, yes, but not idiocy. People who are not complete idiots assess their personal weaknesses before they attack someone, and if they determine that their weaknesses make them vulnerable to a counter-attack, they do not strike. I would have never told you what I am telling you now because I was sorry for you and because I realized that you are old and physically lazy. I actually told you once that you were good enough as is for me, and I did feel that way, but not any more. I will tell you more: my Florida friend (H-B: someone he knows a bit; a rawfoodist yoga teacher) has the body of Adonis so he clearly could have attacked me without fearing a counter-attack; he is perfect and not vulnerable. Did he attack me? No, he told me that I looked good and was too harsh on myself with respect to weight. He probably wanted me to feel better; he is a good friend. In the future, I will select people who are kind and want me to feel good over those who constantly criticize me to the point of my becoming lightheaded from not having had breakfast (H-B: that is what happened today. Maddy, my foster kitty, ate my yogurt while I was talking. Some time later, I became lightheaded and told D. about it. He asked why. I explained - due to not having had breakfast. D. said that the cat did the right thing). I will let you think for a week about whether you can stay completely - and I mean, completely! - away from aforementioned topics. I need an answer because if you cannot, I won't stay with you but stay with bff instead, and I want to let her know about it sooner rather than later. I can still go to an art exhibition with you as we planned, but I won't live with you. Please do not call me until you have an answer. Thank you and good luck with everything."

I am glad to see you are putting your foot down to the men in your life that seem to think they can say anything they want to. I think "D" needs to grow the hell up and stop being a bully .. He has no right ! Good for you !!

He has been very demeaning to you, several times!
No need to punish you as if you were a child & disobeyed him.
Whether you send letter or not, he needs to know this topic of convo is unexceptable, to NOT be brought up again.
BTW your face doesn't look fat in the pics. Be kind to Hammy.

Speaking of hammies... D's niece has a hamster. She said (and he conveyed it to me out of context, I think) that the hamster only gets out to eat and poop. D. does not know that I have had close to 10 hamsters. I said "Hamsters are not diurnal, they are nocturnal! Your niece probably does not see him run because she is asleep!" The thing is, a hamster can run a marathon (in hamster miles) during one night. A hamster definitely does not get out just to eat and poop. I was really offended. D. said that the niece goes to bed at 4AM. Then I do not know.

I think the letter is very harsh but well-deserved. Not sure that I will send it, but I do believe it is well-deserved.

Had more sex with the local guy, G. Then we went to a coffee shop in the morning and he talked to me trying to find out where else in life I acted irrationally. I described becoming anorexic to please my father. He then said that he noticed that last night I had nothing to eat at home (he asked me what to bring and I requested rotisserie chicken for me and my cats and ate only that when he brought it so he figured that I did not have anything else available) and that is not good. So someone for a change cares about my eating enough.

I want to add to the draft: "And for talking to me the way you do while knowing that I have an ED in remission and am trying to have a very healthy relationship with food, you should be delicensed."

No, I probably would not say that... but I sure want to. I mean... a p-doc telling an ED patient to feed her food to her cats in order to get lean... come on, that is an extreme case.

Another thing... in reality I have lost a few pounds. Perhaps it is from biking. My waistline is better. But I do not even want him to notice it and appreciate and comment, I want him not to discuss my weight at all, either positively or negatively! Is it asking too much of him?

Some guy who is so focused on weight is shallow in my opinion. I'm not skinny, you know? I am BMI of 29 but was a 31 before (lost 30 lbs this year partially because I was sick, partially due to the baby.) Anyway, my husband never, ever, ever says I am fat. He sometimes complains he is fat (which he isn't,) and I tell him he's not the fat one, I am. And he says, "whatever." He doesn't expect me to be a super model, you know.

I'm also a "busty" girl. I am very busty, actually. My husband loves that about me. He thinks I"m so sexy. No my tummy area is not great, I can't wear a bikini or whatever. But he doesn't put me down or tell me I'm fat or call me names or make me feel bad about my weight. This is how a man should be. If he wants to be with you, he needs to accept not everyone can be a skinny model type body.

And if that's what he wants and it bothers him so much, then he needs to stop harrassing you and go elsewhere for a woman. You're beautiful! You are biking to work, that is so healthy! You are a very, very smart lady. You have accomplished so much in life and overcoming your health issues. You do no deserve to be treated in such a way. You're a great person, Hamster, and you deserve to be with someone who appreciates all of you and not nag you about being "fat" (which you're not.)

Dark Heart, that almost made me cry.

Sounds like D is feeling insecure. There was a reason you didn't get together before, is this it? He gets hostile when he gets insecure? When you do better?

You are using all kinds of muscle groups you're not aware of, just keeping yourself erect on your bike. That's why your waist is disappearing. You really are inspiring.

Don't let these jerks drag you down, sister.

Really??! That is splendid! I mean, it is such an easy and fun thing to do, it does not feel like work at all.

We did not get together before because I preferred other guys to him. He is also absolutely horrified of my having other lovers. Just absolutely horrified. He thinks it is risky to be with me because there is a possibility of my having other lovers. You would think that it is selbstverstaendlich that seeing him at best every few months I would have someone else local, or more than one, and it would be OK. If I could go back, I would probably try living together with him and being exclusive - I know I can, as I lived in a mutually monogamous marriage with ex H for 12 years which proves my ability to do that. But with a LD relationship, there is no point. But he does not see it this way; he was terrified of the prospect. So he definitely is not going to learn that there is anyone else involved - the geographic distance makes keeping boundaries intact easy. Whether he sensed something and reacted with hostility out of insecurity... I do not know.

By the way the Maine guy (sex over Skype) knows this story and thinks that D. is an asshole with insecurity issues.

You have made it clear to him that you will NO longer put up with his comments! If it were me I would be " too busy with life" to Skype him.

Maybe just send few quick email responses to him. " Sorry we haven't been in touch much but I am very busy with work and social events"

But hey that's just me and I can be a "Snarly female dog" at times
I have ZERO tolerance for ignorance!

I KNOW what I REALLY want to tell him. I will NOT say it, in consideration of his feelings, but I sure want to, so I will just post a pretend letter to get it out of my system.

"D.,

I have made a conscious resolution to be more rational in my choices in life, as well as to try to cultivate healthy hedonism. I have made an inventory of my past and current choices and was not pleased with myself, because I discovered a lot of masochistic behavior. In an effort to rectify the situation, I have started spending time with someone who finds me very very beautiful as is and even cares that I have enough food in the fridge. You, by contrast, policed my food decisions and told me to give my breakfast to Maddy so that Maddy and not I would get fat. I hope you will see that it is masochistic to always spend time with the person who belittles and harasses you. For variety, I will now also be spending time with someone who wants me to feel good. I am not breaking up or anything, I still care, I will still come visit you in December and everything will be as planned - I am just explaining the reason behind my reduced availability on Skype. I hope that you will welcome positive changes in my life."

Argh! Feeling very vengeful.

Great pretend letter !
I hope it has helped you feel better !!!

Funny but I keep re-reading it. It must be helping.