what causes the instability?...interpersonal relationships

criterea 2: A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

So this is a major feature of bpd I reckon. No doubt we have all had or are having some issues with it?
I'm not real sure about it...because it freaks me out I guess, but I was thinking about it today....

I suppose it would never have been a problem if I never got interpersonal to begin with! But over the years I have done....ooops!
So I was thinkin' how did I ever get involved in relationships?, especially considering that when I look back I never really liked anybody I was with?
Then this frightening FACT occurred to me...(yeah, hate them frightening facts! )

The only requirement for me to have an interpersonal relationship was that the other person liked me!
Someone could ask me..."hey james",..."yeh what",..."how come you like this person?"......"oh...ummm, yeah, because they like ME".
(oh someone likes me....yeh you are moving in tonight!!)

So is this why everything goes chaotic real fast? There is nuthin' else goin on! I wouldn't know if I even liked them for real or not because I'm just high on them liking me!

BUT..what happens if I am not feeling that 'like'..from them?. I suddenly find out just how much I hate them and so do they...find out.

In reality, people cannot be 'liking' all the time...well regular people anyway... and what I would be doing is trying desperately anything to be 'likeable' all the damn time, by 'liking' anything and everything the other person is doing even if it's bad and it's to me!
And I'm doing all this to make damn sure I get 'liked' because I don't 'like' or even know myself. Everything I need has gotta come from them. (keep liking me..please please PLEASE!!)...and also (I need you to like me NOW or I'm gonna turn on you and then myself!!...but always you first and full on!)

This is just setting everything up for a huge let down that will always come because people basically can't be 'liking' that intensely for long! ....and I simply can't control myself when I'm in the hate part of the cycle.

I'm sure there is more to it...but I wondered if this is sort of like the idealization and devaluation thing goin' on that I know I have been doing in every interpersonal relationship since the beginning of time it seems.

This is where your CBT/DBT come in, and you have to think about people as gray and not black and white. I did this with everyone I know....even my husband. I've just had to learn that's the ABCs of him, and that's never going to change no matter how much he makes me nuts at times. In relationships with the opposite sex I've always questioned if I 'really' loved them, and yes most of them started with them liking me too, but that's cause whenever I liked someone they would....well...run...cause I'd be too into them...or because they were just the kind of man that didn't like woman. My husband is awesome, but I do feel abandoned by him at times. Which can make me go into the devaluation part....and on and on and on...this is just when you have to kick in the therapy.

SO right on! I was at a party once "up north" with my first husband where he told me to quit talking to the men and go talk with the women, because otherwise I might get my butt kicked by somebody thinking I was trying to steal her man. I was like, seriously? These are your friends? This is the worst party ever! If we weren't married, I would break up with you right now! Or at least once we got back home. Yeah. That's why we (I) need to see a T to teach me I AM lovable, to set that first mathematical assumption, that got messed up before. Cause you can't build on a bad first assumption. See, everything IS maths.

Oh J, no wonder you and I like each other so dang much! We're feeding off each other's liking! Ack!

I'm learning that with Histrionic Personality Disorder, often our (well, my) relationships are based on how much we can get the man ('the victim' ... I hate that term, but I do see its place, much to my shame) to be enamored with us. It's the 'HPD game', and it breaks my heart to think I play that with people unknowingly or unconsciously.

So in a way, dear friend, I relate to some of what you say here. The thing is, except for my husband, everyone eventually stops liking me at some point. Which leads directly into this intense fear of abandonment ... "I know you're gonna start not liking me and you'll leave sooner or later ... and when you do, I won't like you so much either ..."

I guess what I can say is that lots of us relate to what you write about here though it manifests slightly differently in all of us. Forgive77 is right on ... this is where we very much need CBT (get your butt back in therapy, my friend!) and DBT. I do wonder, too, if we would be this way if we liked ourselves.

...yeah there is definitely that
if I don't stay likeable all the time then they are just going to leave me.

but how hard is it to stay likeable all the time?...heaps hard!
as well as the other person just not ready to like us all the time as well...

it's been a complicated arrangement for me...I would do absolutely anything for the person to keep the person (sounds like a possession or even worse like a hostage, yikes)....and then do absolutely everything to push them away. The last one being the most successful of the two.
.."loving someone to death....and hating someone to death"
theres that black and white again
some smart dude once told me about bpd ..."you don't have a girlfriend mate...you take a hostage, but you don't threaten their life you threaten your own"

irk! ugh! bleh!

thanks for responses ...psych did mention dbt again...but I keep dodging it...last time didn't go so well

And this is why I am so reluctant to become involved with anyone right now. I know me and I have and will drive someone crazy. And myself at the same time.
I am working to get myself in a better place where I am more confident that I have some control over my emotions. Not sure if that is possible, but I'm gonna try.

you said it Rosie23...!
thats exactly where I am at...
I am at the awareness part of the process I guess, which is good in many ways but really hard to admit those things that make me dysfunctional....had a crap day because of all my 'awareness'...ouch!

*warning*....weird metaphor alert
I feel like I'm a plane at the airport thats not ready for take off yet, got too many mechanical problems....re-fueling and stuff like that.
even if I had the guts to fly the damn thing it would crash soon after take off.
I have to fix the mechanical problems so I can take off and stay airborne...fly straight...land...when needed...take off again.
just no crash landing screaming fireballs out of the sky anymore.

When you're not reay you're not ready. Period. I've often wondered what I would do if something happened to my husband. Would I date again? No. Probably not. My husband has been through all of this part of being borderline, and bipolar....and I wouldn't want to have the rug pulled out from under me. The whole dating stuff..it makes me crazy. That whole time sets off all of my triggers. I can't stand the game playing etc. I would have been married once....and after years of therapy after my husband's passing...I think I'd just feel....retired. So to speak. Plus I feel like it would be a disrespect to my children. I just don't think I could do it again.

You expressed this so well. It's so true. And so sad. And, as you say - now that we know this, we purposely isolate ourselves. Personally, I find isolation intolerable so inevitably I break down and get into another dysfunctional relationship. And I'm not even freakin' divorced yet! But then again, that's just another problem to add into the mix.

I'm glad to read these posts. I use this with men/romantic interests. I think no man will ever like/desire me (thank you Daddy complex) though I am attractive, smart and funny. So I just assume I can only "pick" from the ones who appear to like me. Those type of guys are usually sex addicts and narcissists. I do see the dangers, so I don't get involved in relationships or date much. My affirmation for 2012 is "You are worthy of love and belonging." I keep telling myself this, trying to change my brain to believe that a man would find me interesting and desirable, so I don't have to just settle for being alone. Maybe due to my own narcisissm, I simply cannot tolerate loser or abusive guys. I guess that's my fighter/scapegoat role from my childhood though. So generally believe I'm destined to a lonely life because no man would want to put up with my BPD behavior (even though I'm not even meeting the criteria after 5 years of therapy).

Glad I could get that out. I'm trying to believe there are good guys out there.

Now...because of my past issues....I tell my teenage daughter to go for the shy quiet ones.

Should I state the obvious? It is NOT narcissistic not to want an abusive guy! As to 'loser', I guess that depends on your definition and values. If you respect and value people who can support themselves, then a 'loser' to you would probably be a guy who wants to live off you. If you like to be active and have fun, then somebody who mopes around all day is likely a loser to you. To others, maybe not, or perhaps they like the feeling of being needed so this works for them.

...I don't understand this take take take thing that goes on!..

I mean how damn hard is it to be borderline and compassionate and also be aware of all the scumbags out there taking advantage of us!!

it makes me angry and I think I already was a bit.

idiot arseholes have no feelings beyond 30 seconds and we cop the ones they ignore as well as our own...

thats the bpd damn core issue!!

the world and all the dumbass idiots that can't feel.....they and the lot of'em dump their feelings onto us poor bpd suckers....because they know we will not say NO.

arseholes...I am not well tonight!...I am not ashamed!
I am learning about how screwed up I am
I am fine with this
I have abilities that will arrive when I need them.
these abilities are extra-ordinary and I trust them.

I am not crazy!...I am full of love....!..I care deeply about the things that are real!

and I will destroy everything that changes my mind

Monkey,
I came back to un-genderify my post. Too late, you already saw it. Sorry, that was insensitive of me. I've also got to stop letting my own jaded viewpoint from sneaking into threads they don't belong in.

i truly believe you are right about all of this. I hear it in you.

This is an interesting topic, and something I haven't given a whole lot of thought about until recently. I've been analzying my feelings and what takes place within where I go from one extreme to the next, and I still haven't figured it out completely (I think I'm making some progress).. Because it's more than one emotion taking place and I'm having a hard time untangling them. The best I can gather is something like this...

For me.. It almost always involves a girl, usually attractive (not always the case, because it's occurred online with girls I've never seen)...
The common denominator for me... Is that connection you have with someone, and the feeling of being liked, appreciated, and they enjoy my company...

This creates a high for me, because I'm LIKED, and their Great and I perceive them as being better than me...

From here other emotions that eventually occur are Jealousy and Fear. I see that person as being more likeable than me, better than me, and easier to make friends than me. (I suspect this is where the jealousy and fear come into play). I become threatened that because they possess all these qualities that I don't have (jealousy), they'll meet new people, and move on, and I'll be left alone yet again (fear).

Then combine that with my black and white thinking, and it becomes more difficult.

I'm beginning to realize in my head though that the person isn't better than me. I'm more aware of what's taking place within me, and trying to keep the relationship healthy. I've yet to overcome that feeling of them being more likeable or having it easier making friends. I "think" I'm becoming less impulsive with my actions, and maybe even a bit more rational then emotional.

This is the farthest I've gotten in figuring out this process that takes place within me, and it's developed a bit more than a few days ago.. Still trying to figure out the rest though.

I think this is a huge insight on your part! Do you, intellectually at least, see that the jealousy piece might be a manifestation of idealizing that person? And inside, do you realize that they/she is actually just as f***ed up as the rest of us, but maybe adapting differently or better in certain situations? The person you make them up to be is not real. I know you know this, C, but if you replaced that jealousy with empathetic respect instead, who knows what could come of your relationships? Most important of all, C: Have you ever said directly to a woman that you feel this way- jealous and fearful? Most women prefer directness to sudden changes in behavior that they can't understand. I'd be curious to see if you grew your intimicy with women if you were upfront about your inner experiences.

Thanks!!

Of course, this is part of the process.. It's not at the initial stage though... Occurs later, and by that it can be a few days later.. not a few months later.

Depends on the person... In some cases yes. If they themselves have a mental illness I'm beginning to realize they are just as F**ked up as me.. (not sure I fully believe).. With a NON I'm not sure...

True!! Easier said then done. Since most of us, if not all, have interpersonal relationship issues.

No opinion really.. I haven't given this much thought..

I think it's important to realize what I wrote about is just not in regards to SO, but just as relevent in friendships. I don't think I'd have a problem explaining how I feel, depending on the person. In terms of an intimate relationship, probably not. Women always say they wanna hear this type of s**t until they hear it, and then it's a turnoff...

A woman who's gonna be there for an intimate friendship or deeper romantic relationship isn't gonna run; she'll appreciate it and stick around, and you will have deepened the trust - both ways. If she runs, then f her.

Perhaps you are attracting the wrong type of women to you Cbox. That sounds how a superficial (or emotionally immature) woman would act. Then again, how do you KNOW it's a turnoff - do they tell you? Or are you just afraid it will be, then you are hypervigilant, watching for any sign that you might be right?

....help me

J, what's happening?

There isn't anything wrong with being "selective" about who you want to become involved with.

And sometimes I wonder if I am being too selective, but honestly, I don't think so. I have emotional needs that have to be met. I have issues that I need help with and someone who can do those things is not unreasonable.

And if I don't find that person who can do that. Then O.K., I can live on my own and I still have all of you!
So no matter what I will never truly be alone.