[bowhunt72]

I have a very difficult and confusing problem. I'm trying to recover from an affair gone bad. (I have a thread about that over in the Separation and Divorce forum.) I already know I was wrong and I hurt my wife badly. She refuses to trust me or forgive me (understandably) but she is allowing me the chance to work toward regaining her trust. She will not even agree to see a marriage counselor yet, because she tells me I have to heal myself before I can even try to heal our marriage.

My problem is that the first thing I have to heal from is a broken heart. The affair ended when my lover was forced to make a hard decision and chose to return to her ex instead of staying with me and working toward the new life we had planned together. I don't hate her, and I'm not angry with her. I have cut off all contact with her as part of trying to save my marriage, but she's not a bad person. I enjoyed the time we spent together. We were already very close from our long history of working together in medicine and firefighting before the romance started, and when it started, it was great. We shared a lot of good times together, she is physically very attractive, and making love with her was by far the best of my life. The last time I saw her, we were curled up together in bed after making love and she told me she knew this was where she belonged. Three days later, our relationship ended.

Even though I am 100% committed to restoring my marriage and never seeing my lover again, I do miss her. It still hurts to think about her, and I'm still grieving for the relationship that ended. I know it's normal to feel this way when a relationship ends, but I feel like I'm not allowed to. I've gotten rid of everything she left behind in my apartment, including some items of great sentimental value, (I'm not allowed back in my house yet) but the whole place reminds me of her. We rented this place to be ours together. When I go to bed at night, I have to sleep in the bed I bought for us.

How do I go about the normal and natural grief that's part of the healing process when every time I think about my lover or miss her I feel like I'm betraying my wife all over again? I can't help but remember every time I see my wife that my lover is more attractive. It's true, but it feels like an insult to my wife. If my marriage ever recovers to the point of having a physical relationship again, I know from experience that my wife will never turn me on the way my lover did.

How can I deal with this? How do I work through the memories and put them behind me when even thinking of them reminds me of the wrong I did to my wife? How can I heal from this without feeling like I'm hurting my wife all over again?

[Open Eyes]

Why are you going back to your wife? You didn't love her enough to NOT cheat on her. You are still Opining for this other woman. You already know the sex is not as fulfilling. Hmmm hurting your wife again?

What seems more important is YOUR hurting, NOT your wifes hurting. And that didn't matter to you when this other LOVER was planning on a future with you. And if she suddenly changed her mind and can't get back together with her husband? Well, what would happen with your WIFE whom you promised to LOVE AND CHERISH because YOU DIDN'T DO THAT DID YOU?

My personal opinion is that YOUR WIFE IS RIGHT, YOU NEED TO GET " YOU" FIGURED OUT BEFORE YOU DRAG "HER" INTO A HURT SHE NEVER DESERVED YET AGAIN.

You can take as long as you need to opine and grieve and figure YOU out, but make sure you get that all settled before you hurt anyone else.

Another clue, you talk about the girl friend as a lover. People who are in love MAKE LOVE.
You talk about your wife as "sex is a function" men who are not IN LOVE just have SEX.

[bowhunt72]

My personal opinion is that YOUR WIFE IS RIGHT, YOU NEED TO GET " YOU" FIGURED OUT BEFORE YOU DRAG "HER" INTO A HURT SHE NEVER DESERVED YET AGAIN.

Going back to my wife because of 20 years of loyalty, because 18 years ago I stood in that church and made those vows, because there is still some small remnant of love between us. I agree that my wife is right and I need to get myself straightened out before I can try to work on our marriage. Enough people have already been hurt in this business. What I'm trying to do is figure out how to get past my hurt and grief without hurting anyone else. This problem is mine to solve, not one to get dumped in anyone else's lap. Eventually I want to be able to be with my wife without her wondering if I'm really thinking about my lover. This is going to time a lot of time, effort, and professional help to get past.

[Open Eyes]

"some small remnant of love between us" your own words

It is important that you DO get help as your wife and even I suggest. There will be a lot of work involved. Can a small remnant grow or not is what you have to figure out between the two of you and a marriage councelor, after you get YOU figured out.

Open Eyes

[bowhunt72]

Guilty as charged, on several counts. If my lover had chosen differently and stayed with me, we would still be together planning our future. We were seriously in love, shopping for wedding rings and planning our dream wedding on the beach in Key West. My top choice would have been to stay with her, despite the financial difficulties the divorce would have cost me. Once that option was taken away from me and I began to recover from a severe case of testosterone poisoning, I began to realize that I had no business being with her in the first place. My marriage has problems, but I should have stayed and tried to work on them or gotten us professional help (as my wife wanted to do) instead of trying to escape them with someone else. It only made matters worse for my wife that my lover was the same woman I had an affair with years ago and never really forgot.

Also guilty on the "sex" vs. "making love" issue. I haven't felt "in love" with my wife in a very long time, probably at least a year. We haven't had sex in 8 months, since about 4 months before the affair started. I have no idea how long it's been since we really "made love", but it's a lot longer than that.

That's why I'm trying to get help, both by posting here and by getting professional help. I want to get past the grief and pain and hurt and guilt I get from thinking of and missing my lover and move on with my life. I don't expect to completely forget her, but I want to get past her enough that I can focus on rebuilding my relationship with my wife and regaining the love I once had for her. My wife says I have to heal myself first, then start from the very beginning, basically from our first date. She's probably right, but this is going to be difficult, and it's going to take lots of time and help.

[lynn P.]

You admit you had full intention of making a life with this other woman and sex is so much better with her. Why then are you still trying to mend things with your wife, who you're not in love with. Seems you only want to mend things now, since the other one ended it. You should let your wife move on and so should you - she's just 2nd choice. If you would be honest and tell your wife how you were so in love with the other woman and how much better at sex she was - do you think she would want to work on the marriage? You're in pain - you should know what it feels like to be cheated on and picture your partner/lovers naked writhing bodies...that's pain. If you won 10 million dollars, would you settle for your wife? When you and your lover did this - how did you justify it. You say your lover isn't a "bad person" yet she knew you were married.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by bowhunt72

The affair ended when my lover was forced to make a hard decision and chose to return to her ex instead of staying with me

I have cut off all contact with her as part of trying to save my marriage

It sounds to me like you are doing a fall-back on your marriage, it was not first choice. I don't know why you are continuing in the marriage if you were willing to move on to something else. I do not see how you can stop hurting your wife and regain her marital trust with that attitude; why might you not choose this again if someone else comes along?

That you word it that your lover ended the affair but then try to give yourself credit as cutting off contact to save your marriage; they cannot both be true. Your lover cut off contact/ended the affair. That you did not continue to try and pressure her and pursue her after that does not add much positive to your story. Instead of the classic double-bind example of "have you quit beating your wife?" I'm forced to think, "have you quit cheating on your wife" only in your case, it does not sound like a double bind question?

How do I go about the normal and natural grief that's part of the healing process when every time I think about my lover or miss her I feel like I'm betraying my wife all over again? I can't help but remember every time I see my wife that my lover is more attractive. It's true, but it feels like an insult to my wife. If my marriage ever recovers to the point of having a physical relationship again, I know from experience that my wife will never turn me on the way my lover did.

How can I deal with this? How do I work through the memories and put them behind me when even thinking of them reminds me of the wrong I did to my wife? How can I heal from this without feeling like I'm hurting my wife all over again?

Hi ((((Bow)))) welcome. I have read your posting along with the other posts...I have some thoughts and a couple of questions:

Why are you punishing yourself for losing the love of your life? I think you should focus on yourself right now 110% and not worry about what anyone else thinks or does. You don't need any more guilt or pain.

It is normal for you to grieve when you lose someone. Especially someone you love. Do you have a support system outside of your profession? Some great friends that understand? This is for you to do on your own and with your T.

You will NEVER be able to even begin to get over your ex until you have truly grieved the loss and have moved on.

Your estranged wife is now punishing you. You are not "allowed" back in your house? She is "allowing" you to have a chance to get counseling first before she will get her own counseling? Seriously, it takes two. Obviously, there were serious problems in the marriage BEFORE you crossed the point of no return.

1. Why do you want to get back together with your estranged "wife"? Is it because you don't want to be alone?

2. Why does your estranged wife think she is so fantastic that she shouldn't seek counseling herself, on her own? Just the fact that she is going out of her way to punish you and put you in the doghouse (making you feel like a dog that ate off the counter) is not acceptable. Yet you are accepting it. Because you feel guilty?

Yes, you made a mistake. a HUGE mistake. But it's in the past. You are clearly in love with someone? Who is that person? Is it yourself, your wife or your ex?

The biggest question out is: Can you love yourself and respect yourself and treat yourself with some gentleness and dignity, grieve, work with your T and try to figure out what happened in the first place that lead you to this situation? And try to take some of the burden off yourself.

I assume from your post you are in the caregiving, first responder, profession: Your estranged wife isn't a victim; yet, she is treating you like she is. And your personality and traits, that lead you to become what you are in your profession, is leading you to do what you did in the first place (adreneline, caregiving, saving, etc.) AND do what you are doing now (putting others first before yourself and seeing everyone else as a potential victim for you to save).

You need to SAVE yourself first.

Please come back and let us know how you are doing.

[bowhunt72]

Many good points, all of which leave me looking bad. All I can say is I'm trying to get back together with my wife for the sake of the vows I took and the love we once had. Something kept us together for 20 years. I'm trying to preserve that tiny spark and help it grow back into something we can call love.

For all those who have piled on to tell me I'm wrong - you are absolutely correct. What I'm trying to figure out is what I can do about being wrong to move past it and back into a relationship solid enough that the question will never rise again. I know she will never fully trust me again. I've accepted that as part of the consequences of my actions. She knows about my feelings for my lover, about our marriage plans, and about all the nights we spent together, but she is still willing to give me the barest chance to prove myself again. I don't want to blow that chance by being unable to get past my feelings for the other woman.

Originally Posted by bowhunt72

Many good points, all of which leave me looking bad. All I can say is I'm trying to get back together with my wife for the sake of the vows I took and the love we once had. Something kept us together for 20 years. I'm trying to preserve that tiny spark and help it grow back into something we can call love.

For all those who have piled on to tell me I'm wrong - you are absolutely correct. What I'm trying to figure out is what I can do about being wrong to move past it and back into a relationship solid enough that the question will never rise again. I know she will never fully trust me again. I've accepted that as part of the consequences of my actions. She knows about my feelings for my lover, about our marriage plans, and about all the nights we spent together, but she is still willing to give me the barest chance to prove myself again. I don't want to blow that chance by being unable to get past my feelings for the other woman.

I don't think you are bad at all.
I hope I didn't come off that way.
Did my post read as if I was piling on the wrong?
(I am not going to punish you...you are getting punished enough IRL)

Personally, I don't believe in the idea of marriage if there is no solid (truly solid) foundation or once the trust is gone.

The person that doesn't trust will never fully be able to forgive, and the person that lost the trust, will spend the rest of their lives trying to "make it up" to the other person in spades. Life is too short.

And in your profession, I suspect your estranged wife is punishing you to the hilt, including telling every single person you know about what happened (it's a very small community, right?). She may even sleep with one of your buddies to get back with you. Do you want to live like that? Be at the mercy of someone else?

(as far as staying for the "vows", that reads good on paper but really? The REAL thing is getting the forgiveness from yourself. Not your SO. Then you can take a next step)

[bowhunt72]

Rose - thank you for two very insightful posts. You certainly did not come off as piling on the wrong. You raised some good points and asked some questions I will try to respond to.

I have basically no support system. My wife is really all that I have. She has made one of the conditions for her to work on restoring the marriage that I have to establish a support system other than just her. What I said about staying for the vows (and the kids) and for the sake of our years together is true, but it's also true that I fear losing my support and having to function alone. It's hard enough for me now when we live apart but talk on the phone or see each other every day or two. Being truly alone scares me. Who else would ever want me once they learn of my diagnosis?

My wife is going to counseling on her own, although it's with a religious counselor that I had one session with and couldn't stand. What she won't do is go to any kind of couple's counseling with me. She won't say exactly why, but I think it's because doing it would indicate a commitment on her part to restoring the marriage and she's not willing to do that.

I know my wife is punishing me. She is using what I did as something to beat me with and something to threaten me with. She knows she has me over a barrel. If either the divorce or the dissolution goes through, she takes my house and gets to live off of over half of my income for the rest of my life. This is creating a lot of anger and resentment at a time when we need openness and healing, but I can't say anything or she'll just threaten to refile the divorce. This is one of the biggest reasons I want counseling together, but she won't go until I meet whatever her definition of healing myself is. I can't even protest, because I know and everyone around me knows that I'm guilty.

Not sure how to respond to your comment about being in love with someone. It's definitely not me; I don't even like myself on my best days and these are definitely not my best days. It's not my lover; as much as I miss her and grieve for what might have been, I also know that she made her choice and chose someone else over me. I honestly suspect, knowing what I do of the individual involved, that she was bullied or threatened into it, but she still made the choice. That only leaves my wife. I do still love her in some fashion, not with the happy romantic love but with what remains of 20 years of commitment to each other. Right now it's a love/hate relationship though, because of the way she is forcing me to humiliate myself and crawl to meet her demands under threat of taking everything from me. I can't make her understand that doing that is only causing more damage to the relationship I am trying to heal. She doesn't care, and just responds with more threats. I want our marriage back like it was in the times we actually loved each other and wanted to be together, but all I get is vague promises that maybe in a few months she might consider letting me back into my house and trying to work on the marriage too.

As far as loving myself, respecting myself, or forgiving myself, not a chance right now. I started this thread looking for help to get past my feelings for my lover and work to rebuild my love for my wife, but it turned into a "pile on bowhunt" session with everyone wanting to tell me how bad I hurt her. I know I was wrong. I know I hurt her. I feel very guilty about what I've done, that's why I'm putting up with all of her nasty vindictive behavior. But forgive myself? Not a chance, and that's probably one of the next big steps I need to take in healing. Guess I'll just suffer for a while. I'm pretty good at that by now.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by bowhunt72

I don't want to blow that chance by being unable to get past my feelings for the other woman.

You cannot turn your feelings on or off; they are not under your control. I would let the divorce happen, get into therapy for myself to learn who I am, and see if in six months or so your wife would date you, literally. Not though, if you are still grieving over someone else, that would still be trying to catch her on the rebound.

You cannot get back what use to be; that is gone, like trying to get back one's childhood; you only have "now". Get to know yourself and how to keep yourself out of temptation's way and how to communicate and correct relationship problems as they come up. There might be a spark of feeling still between the two of you but that feeling is not the same as the relationship itself. We all like and love multiple people at once but commitment is an exercise that takes hard work and practice and you don't have that kind of time now or the knowledge and experience to get it right yet.

[lynn P.]

I admit your post triggered me to write my initial post due to my own marriage disaster. Mine is even worse than worse than yours. I'm more calm now. You need to grieve the lost relationship. You can't grieve and work on restoring the marriage at the same time - its like taking 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.

One question I asked - why did you have the affair? I suspect you both were needy and needed some excitement. You yearned to feel that spark and feel like a cherished man again. Eventually this relationship would have burned out too. You mention you fear financial burden and loneliness - these aren't good enough reasons to stay in a marriage. If she's getting counseling from someone you don't like, I suspect he's telling her what she wants to hear....which is to get out of the relationship. If you had it t over again, what would you do differently and I'm asking you sincerely?

[Open Eyes]

I am not trying to be hard on you or beat you up. But to be honest my husband cheated on me and he was a binge alcoholic. I didn't find out about the cheating until he was six year sober and could not bear the guilt any more. So it was hard enough for me to wait and try to have faith while he was constantly either working or attending AA meetings then I had to deal with infedelity to? And we did stay together but I have to be honest with you, I do love him, but I don't think that he will ever repair the damage he did to me by his cheating on me.

And my husband decided he loved me even when the other woman pursued him, oh lucky me. But I have to be honest if I had to address the kind of scenario you are discribing, I would not want to try to repair the marriage. I can see your wife is a good christian and is doing her best to respect the vows she took with you. But to be honest, I went through that as well and I wish I could make the hole of it go away in me but so far that hole is still there.

So, I don't know if what you are attempting is truely going to work to be honest.

Open Eyes

[bowhunt72]

Lynn - I had the affair for a lot of reasons. Primarily it was my relationship with my wife. We were very bitter and fighting constantly. I was angry at being treated like - my exact words - a paycheck with legs. I was sick of coming home to the house I pay for and finding it trashed because no one could bother to take care of it. My wife is overweight but with a high sex drive, and I'm a guy with all hormones still intact and functional. With no emotional attachment, sex becomes just a physical act, and performing that act with her at her weight turned my stomach. I couldn't take any more "closed eyes and good imagination" sex. I wanted to feel loved and understood and appreciated and desired again. I wanted to enjoy sex and the entire physical relationship again.

The woman I turned to was an old lover who was with me during my firefighting and EMS days. She understood me because she'd been there with me. She was with me on some of my worst medical runs. One run I still remember often was a drunk female driver who crashed into a horse that had wandered into the road. Her injuries were fatal, but she was still alive at the scene and I was in charge. As I crawled into that wrecked car to begin treatment before we could cut her out of the vehicle, my lover was right there over my shoulder keeping me calm and talking me through it. In one of the hottest fires I've ever been in, hot enough my protective gear was starting to melt, she was my backup on the hose line. We worked together enough we could read each other's minds by instinct - that's how we got together in the first place. Sex with her was the best I'd ever had. I looked her up online and despite having not seen or heard from each other in 13 years, we clicked again instantly. 13 years just vanished. We started talking and texting, then met again in person and instantly knew we were supposed to be together. We deliberately avoided getting physical, wanting to wait until the time was right, but when it was, it was like an earthquake hitting. Making love with her was absolutely fantastic. Eventually, though, the intervening 13 years caught up with us. My psych diagnosis didn't help, and personal and relationship issues from her past finished us off.

That's the why of the affair. Would I do it again? I don't know. If I had known then what I know now, I would have stayed home and worked on my relationship with my wife. She tried to tell me I was manic and making decisions far too quickly, but I didn't listen. As far as I know, that was my first full blown manic episode, and I had no idea what was happening to me. That doesn't excuse my decisions, but maybe it explains them a little.

Where I am now I'm finally starting to feel a little at peace. After the comments Rose made about self forgiveness, I called my wife to ask what she thought. I expected to hear "of course you shouldn't forgive yourself, you're an *******". What she said, though, was that she had already forgiven me and I needed to forgive myself so I could heal. The relationship is not restored yet, of course, but she's willing to give me space and time so that I can heal sufficiently to be able to work on the marriage again someday.

I don't like the guy she's getting counseling from, but I think it was more a clash of personalities than anything. One of the first things he talked to her about was the process of learning to forgive me. He is working on helping her heal from her hurts so that eventually our marriage can be healed.

Loneliness and finances are two things I fear, but they are not the only reasons I want to restore my marriage. It doesn't have to go all the way back to when we were newlyweds - a few years ago we genuinely loved each other and wanted to be together. I want to feel that again. I made a commitment to this woman many years ago, and I have broken it multiple times. I can never make those hurts go away, but I can work toward making it right and making good memories to supplant the old hurts. If we can return to that point, I think we have a good chance together.

((((Bow)))) I posted on the Divorce / Separation thread in response to your initial posting. Perhaps that will shed some light and give you some more tools while you are healing.

I know that forgiving yourself seems IMPOSSIBLE right now, but you are doing all the right things to point you in that direction. Seeing a T/P and reaching out, posting here. Even though it might not seem like it...just do what you can.

And you can suffer for a while...wallow...isolate...hide...whatever. But also, it's incredibly important to suffer with your P/T and here on PC (or wherever you feel most comfortable). Otherwise you will get stuck.

I don't know your diagnosis, but I can say, that I totally 100% understand and can relate to what you are feeling about being alone (it IS scary), and especially the sentiment, "Who would want me once they learn of my diagnosis".

But you know what...I learned by working hard (one second at a time), the best way I can for that day, I am NOT my diagnosis. My diagnosis just explains why I behave(d), cope(d), react(ed) the way I have (and do). It's like connecting the dots when you realize what's been going on all along.

I am not an attorney or P/T but I think you are focusing wayyy to much on what she is doing (because of fear), and not enough on yourself and how you are going to get through each day safely and with a modicum of peace. It really and truly can be one inch at a time in the healing process.

You have experienced great loss. Like you wrote, "Crashing Down".

But I also think that is because you are feeling extraordinarily vulnurable and are in pain, are feeling shame, grieving for what could have been with your EX and feeling a huge loss...you are going through a lot right now...

...and you are allowing her to beat you up and punish you because:
(a) you feel as if you deserve it;
(b) as long as you go along with "her plan" (and she gets to do and say whatever she wants and you can't say a word or you'll be further punished...I think that's abuse and torture actually), you will have some security (peace) and not have to worry so much; and
(c) you are afraid to be alone (which makes sense. being with someone for 20 years is a long time whatever the relationship. there is a familiar comfort there).

re: having to pay half for her lifestyle if things don't work out ... well, as you mentioned before, there is enough responsibility here to go around. And I don't know if you really will have to do that. For now, perhaps, let your estranged wife THINK she is running the show, but you just focus on yourself and start healing from wayyy back when and move forward from there.

Take care.