[Sezzie]

Dear All

Hi, it's Sezzie.
I'm so frustrated right now! So damned friggon frustrated! For many a reason really, but the one primary reason I will talk about here is that i got the dang friggon hots for one of my therapists. The thing is that it's totally wrong! Totally. He's like twice my age. I always get the hots for these types: people who I just can't go anywhere with and people who are just too old for me. I'm a grave robber, if you like! Anywho, I'm just wondering how to get over this kind of stuff? This is some infatuation that I need to get over now, because this has been so destructive to my therapy! For sure!

I think I either need to get a new one, or just talk to this dude about it openly. I know that it's a 'silly' thing and that the emotions are probably misplaced or whatever. I soooo need to get over it though, coz it's so upsetting to put someone up on a pedestal like that. I feel so low about myself. I feel like I'm the dumb and sick one. Which I am really. How can I ever get better in a relationship like this? I do have to see this man on Monday, so I'm hoping you all have some fab suggestions! I do feel so low about myself in his presence and whenever I think about him. I know that I do put myself down a heck of a lot, and I'm probably better than I give myself credit for. I just feel so crap. I like and envy this guy to a point where it's just wrong. What should I do peoples? What should I say?

I feel so desperately lost and sad and disgusting and just absolutely sick!

Thanks for listening all yee brave people!

Love Sezzie

I think this happens quite often. It's nothing to be ashamed about. He seems like he really cares for you, he gives you lots of attention, he's helpful, he's trying to build your self-esteem, etc. Anyone would think , "Wow, I really like this guy."

Go ahead & talk to him about it. He'll help you put it into perspective so it won't negatively impacrt your therapy.--Suzy

[AlteredState01]

If you feel this therapist is a keeper, then discuss this with him.

Soooo, is he hot?

Altered State

I would definately suggest talking with your therapist about it. Attachements are notmal in client therapist relationships but sometimes things have to be set up so that the attachments don't interfere with the therapy program. Hang in there

[zombiette]

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Sezzie said:

I do feel so low about myself in his presence and whenever I think about him. I know that I do put myself down a heck of a lot, and I'm probably better than I give myself credit for. I just feel so crap. I like and envy this guy to a point where it's just wrong. What should I do peoples? What should I say?

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i think say what u said just before, in ur post...it sums up how ur feeling really well and is really clearly and articulately expressed, and maybe u could launch into it with something like "i've heard it's not uncommon for clients to develop feelings/attachments/think a lot about their therapists, and the thing is since i've been seeing u...and then say the same sort of stuff u just posted before. can't be easy, but if it's interferring with ur therapy best 2 bring it up! i'm glad i've only ever had female therapists but the flipside to that is u start wishing they were ur mother! i think the rationale behind it is w/a lot of ppl in therapy, they have not had many fulfilling,close r/ships up until then, and so they need up establishing all that with the therapist and as they get better the skills learnt from the theurapeutic r/ship can be applied to other ppl outside of therapy.

don't worry, ur not being sick or disgusting in thinking this, i'm sure he's seen it plently of times before...good luck for monday i'll be thinking of u then esp as i'm seeing my T monday too!
Nite,
Zombiette

[AlteredState01]

I have been in therapy for quite a few years now, and never really understood why people "fall in love" with their therapists. I am female, but I have always preferred male therapists (not really sure why, but think it has something to do with my personality type).

I have certainly felt strong attachments to one or two therapists over the years, but only because of the level of comfort and length of time we have spent with each other.

Anyway, your reponse to Sezzie made so much sense!

Thanks for responding - now I don't have to sit and ponder "why" for hours and hours; or possibly days, years...

Altered State

[Perna]

I think the male/female attraction has a lot to do with it and how a T "sees"/accepts the other sides of us so why not our sensual/sexual/female side? Too, I've read there can be a female "power" thing going on; it's not uncommon for women to flirt/seduce to get what they want from a man and we like to be seen as "attractive" to men, etc. That is our biological/animal brain function.

Some could have to do with the relationship with your father, too. There's transference everywhere :-) I switched to a female therapist and did much better (because I had most problems with my stepmother).

[AlteredState01]

Definitely strong points and very real indeed.

I myself, was not close to my father AT ALL. It was my mother that I was closer to, but not by much. Our whole family just wasn't close at all.

Can relate to the flirting thing, because, well, I'm a big flirt! However, I never considered flirting with a therapist while in session - how could one possibly come off as "attractive" when telling one's therapist stuff that would shock most of society?

As for manipulating, I can certainly relate, because, well, I'm a big manipulator! However, I always tried to be aware of this fact - even mentioned it to my therapist to watch for signs of such - because "gaining control" over my therapist would not help me one iota. What sort of progress could ever be made if I were to act like he was just another joe off the street? Gaining an upper hand with my T would never have allowed me to listen and learn from him.

I try to be just as aware when I am in sessions with female T's as well. Again, taking control would afford me nothing.

Please don't think I am trying to be argumentative or arrogant. I find all your points valid. In my case, therapy was VERY IMPORTANT to me - my life was at stake. I thought things out very carefully and made my T's aware, at the very beginning, about certain behaviours I use to get my way. This stopped me from using these behaviours before I could; and I definitely would have tried to use them.

Who knows, maybe things would have been alot different and/or more difficult had I had a sexy therapist!

AS

[Bleufacez]

What you are experiencing is called a "transference". It seems that you are attracted to a similar type of people: older & unattainable. This is a pattern in you - in which you need to realize that there's a root to this. Are you hoping for a father figure? Does he remind your of someone familiar?

Transference is important in therapy - if you like your T enough then you'd do anything s/he said. But a negative transference (eg. thinking that he's like an uncle you dislike) is unhealthy for therapy because now you're just rebelling for the heck of it.

You need to realize that, though he may be an "ideal" man because he listens, sympathize, attentive and understands you - he considers you as a client/patient only and nothing will digress from it. You will be broken hearted if you are being manipulative because not only you've jeopardize your relationship with him (maybe you'd feel embarrassed to the point where you can't face him) but you also will be devastated to find that he doesn't reciprocate your feelings.

If he is a good therapist - then you need to discuss your issue of transference with him. And if he is good - then he'd be able to handle it and discuss it with you. This is something that you need to deal with and get over before you can move forward in therapy.

One of the ways to reduce transference is to find out a few personal things about the therapist - like if he's single, married or have kids. The more you know about his personal life... the more you'd realize he's not the "idol" you think he is - that he's just a normal person who is trying to help and care about you.

The most important thing is to focus on your therapy. If a male therapist has been distracting... then choose a female therapist who won't distract you. You want to stick with your therapist long enough where you can benefit from it. Don't fall into a pattern where you'd end up moving from therapist to therapist because of transference!

Attachment is-
I like my family
I love my significant other
I like my therapist
I love my therapist

Transference is -
transfering (moving) something
transfer (move) a lamp from a table to a desk
transfer (move) from one job position to another
Transfer (move) fron california to michigan
transfer (move) from one therapist who can no longer help you to another new one that can help you

Transferance in a therapy session is taking a problem from inside yourself and putting it onto a therapist to be worked out

client - "you are just like my abuser" (client has transfered(moved) their own view of their abuser onto the therapist)
therapist - how do I remind you of your abuser
client - you are yelling at me
therapist - Im am sorry you feel like I am yelling at you like your abuser did...

a love of a therapist as transference is -

therapist - you did a great job today
client with a crush on therapist thinking - she's in love with me (client has transfered (moved) their own love for their therapist into their therapist)

the original poster said that she/he had the hots for the therapist not the therapist had the hots for her. So she is not transfering her own feelings for her therapist into and onto her therapist.

[Bleufacez]

So you don't think that to the fact she always has the hots for the same type of people is not related or insignificant?

I mentioned of transference and didn't mention of counter-transference (which is when therapist reciprocated the feelings of his/her patient) and what your last comment is indicating.

Research shows that there is a very thin line between true love and transference. It makes you wonder, doesn't, why abused girls get attracted to abusive boyfriends?

Here's more detail info on transference and counter transference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference and more why the poster has an erotic idea of her pattern in having the hots for unattainable and older T: http://www.guidetopsychology.com/ero...ansference.htm

I don't have to wonder about why abused are attracted to abusers. I was abused and I have worked on domestic voivlence hotlines and crisis center hotlines and help put together workshops with other survivors for educating professionals as to what goes on with survivors.

the reeason is because the abusers abuse is such a way as to knock the victims self esteme and so on down and make them believe they deserve it, that they the victims are to blame when the significant other goes off. also a majority of adults in abusive relationships have been abused as children so they have been raised with thats the way its supposed to be so they look for what they believe is normal and to someone who has been abused all their life abuse is what is normal to them.

Im not a professional so I am not analyzing whether or not the poster being attracted to the same people is significant or not. thats for her therapist to do based on her own feelings and situations in her real life.

Since I am not her therapist it isn't up to me to analyze for significance or not so I am just talking about the one issue that she posted about - being attracted to her present therapist and whether or not she should discuss it with that therapist.

Besides no where in her post did the original poster does say this has happened to her before so I am not going to read into it that is has when I don't know that

When someone says they have the hots for someone that means they are sexually attracted to the person, they think the person is cute. She herself said she was had the hots for him and the way a psychiatrist explained it to me having the hots for a therapist is a sexual attraction not transference unless the client is believing the therapist has the hots for them also. - putting theor own feelings for the therapist out of themselves into the therapist. But thanks for the link I am always looking for new information.

"Transference is a phenomenon in psychology characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings of one person to another. For instance, one could mistrust somebody who resembles an ex-spouse in manners, voice, or external appearance; or be overly compliant to someone who resembles a childhood friend.

In a therapy context, transference refers to redirection of a client's feelings from a significant person to a therapist. Counter-transference is defined as redirection of a therapist's feelings toward a client, or more generally as a therapist's emotional entanglement with a client.

According to your own sourse its saying what I am saying that it is transference if the client believes the therapist being like someone in their past or present life or the client believes the therapist is in love with them

The original poster isn't saying her present therapist is like anyone else in her life and isn't saying her therapist is in love with her. she is saying she the client is in love with her therapist and wants to know if she whould talk to him about it.

and my advice stands yes I believe she should talk about her attraction to her therapist with her therapist so t hat it does not interfere with her therapy program.

[zombiette]

bleu - that second article u provided a link to is really interesting...Sez - maybe u could print that out and show it to ur T?

[Bleufacez]

I never said that your definition of transference is wrong but you hit it on the spot that you didn't analyze the rest of her complaints, and is very important to see that this is a pattern for her. And I never dismissed your theory of attachment either. So for some reason, why are you thinking or feeling that I'm attacking your theory?

Attachment theory actually states that "an affectional tie that one person or animal forms between him/herself and another specific one [usually the parent]--a tie that binds them together in space and endures over time." Based on the definition and her complaints, I do not think that she is attached to her therapist.

This is the reason why... she didn't say that she couldn't get away from him and she realizes what she's feeling is inappropriate. She also says that she wants to get over her feelings for her therapist. She didn't say anything about how long she's been seeing him (duration is an important aspect in being attached). You cannot be attached to someone you just met and haven't had the time to develop a trusting relationship yet.

Attachment does not translate to infatuation but transference does.
You can actually hate someone and still get attached like the relationship between Paula Abdul and Simon. You can get attached to people you work with for a long time or an object (i.e. house, memorabilia, toy, etc.)

What you are dismissing is that a patient do not realize why they have the hots for their psychotherapist. They only know that they do. Hence, my questions... "Does he remind you of someone", "Are you hoping..."

To be fair... I am very pscyhoanalytical and have a degree in the field. I cannot help her if I ignored her clues (and she provided a lot). So... I didn't just come up with transference and disagreeing with attachment theory to fail in helping her.

from your post -

you hit it on the spot that you didn't analyze the rest of her complaints, and is very important to see

I am very pscyhoanalytical and have a degree in the field. I cannot help her if I ignored her clues (and she provided a lot). So... I didn't just come up with transference and disagreeing with attachment theory to fail in helping her.

Thats it exaclty it this is a support group not a therapy group we are not allowed to analyze fellow members. we can support them and give them suggestion but we cannot practice psychoanaylsis.

I am not a profession but I also have background in psychology but here in this site this poster is not my client in real life . I dont have a right to analyze anyone or their symptoms or read transference into their posts by analyzing their post.

I can only go on her post and her words she used the word infatuated in reference to her present therapist and has the hots for him. that tells me she likes him more than a client therapist relationship on HER side. so that is what I am addressing. I am not reading into it that she is transfering her love for someone else onto the therapist because that is not what she posted and she is not posting she is accusing her therapist of being like someone else.

I can only post from my point of view and what I see is a sexual attraction. when [people are sexually attracted to someone they think that person is cute, handsome and they like that person. liking someone is being attached to then. so that is what I am addressing that she likes her therapist and thinks hes hot and yes I believe she should talk to her therapist so that her liking her therapist to this point of a sexual attraction does not interfer with her therapy.

I am not going to continue discussing this with you all I am doing is putting my opinion - not a professional analysis because her on this site professional analysis of another member and their posts is not allowed.

If you disagree hey thats fine thats part of posting on message boards is hearing about other peoples opinion you want me to look closer and anaylze the post and poster but I cant do that because that is not allowed here.

and I am not attacking you. everyone here has a right to their own points of view and people can disagree with their opinions that does not mean the person is attacking another person. but since you are percieving me as attaking you I am sorry I don't mean to come off like that. take care.

[AlteredState01]

Enjoyed reading both your arguments. Very well written. Love to read others' interpretations of the meanings of psych terms and how they can be applied to a specific scenario; it gives one a broader scope to look through when learning about one's illness, which I definitely require, considering I am BPD and tend to see things in black and white.

Too bad, however, you both feel you are attacking each other.

Could you both be doing what you are discussing, if you are feeling this way?

Just curious...

Altered State

[zombiette]

i guess u guys just had different ideas about what her post meant, and i don't think u can help but draw ur background and experiences into things when responding to a post...bleufacez did state that s/he had a degree in the field so it seems they were just trying to help not do a professional analysis...personally i think u both provided very interesting points of view and hopefully both will be of help to Sezzie!

Thank you both. yes I do at times bring my psychological education and knowledge into my posts and replys but at the same time I rely specifically on the persons words of their main question and not analyze deeper into it as in what is behind that behavior. this is a support group not a therapy group so I feel its not my job to psychoanalyze here.

But above that I am glad you both liked the way wwe were taking care of our disagreement. Which is why I continued for a bit with those posts. people not involved with the situations sometimes get upset when disagreements here happen and feel like the site, the people in the disagreement are attacking each other and so on. so when this differences of p[oint of view - me posting from educated but not pacticing therapy on the poster point of view and the other replyer posting from a professional therapy point of view of analyzing and was not attacking the original poster I chose to continue debating a bit to show people here an example of how people with different oppinion and posting styles can discuss things without pulling name calling and personal attacks into in. When the other replyer posted about feeling attacked I decided its time to pull out of that debate by agreeing to disagree because this is a support group. debates are great and allowed but are not right when they turn to the people involved starting feeling attacked. I was and am not feeling attached but since the other replyer brought it up that may or may not be what he/she is feeling.

So On my end in my opinion the debate is over I agree to disagree and now its time to get back to the orignal poster who in two days has to meet with her therapist who she has the hots for and would like suggestions of what to do and say at that appointment on monday...

If I was brainstorming this from the idea that it is my situation here are my options based on how I do things -

I can write what I am feeling out and then tell my therapist
I can write what I am feeling out and then hand my therapist the paper.
I can print off this thread and give it to my therapist.
I can walk in and request a new therapist and walk right back out the door.
I can request a new therapist and then talk about why I want a new therapist.

I could get a shoe box, glue, construction paper, and make a diarama depicting my feelings

this last one I actually did when I had a sexual attraction to a therapist. I mad a scene inside a shoe box of the therapy office, me sitting on the couch and the therapist in the chair at the desk which clearly shows I know what the relationship is really like and about, the balloons hanging betwween us in the air was the actual conversations pointing to the person that was saying them and the balloons pointing to my head behind be were holding hearts and so on.

The therapist saw my art therapy project and started laughing becasue that therapist had never seen this approach to that issue before and then we discussed the options together of whether or not the two of us could and wanted to remain a therapy team. it was a great conversation and the diarama lighted the mood so that we could talk about it.

We decided to get a new therapist on of my same gender because I am not gay or a lesbian. that way I will not keep having sexual attractions to my therapists.

I still have contact with that therapist for he was the one and only male therapist that I liked let alone fell in love with. and that therapist still has the diarama on display in the office and he says in his words -

"it has helped many abuse survivors talk about the attachment issue before they even start experiencing it. Thanks to your diarama I can now hold on to my caseload of female clients. There was a time when I thought I had some contagious desease because a majority of my female clents whould start experiencing problems and want a new therapist. Now they see the diarama and the issue of client therapist relationship and a client building an appropiate attachment to me is right out there in the open right from the first session."

[Bleufacez]

Myself-

I do have degree in the field but I never said whether or not I practice the field.
And I'm not going to reveal whether or not I am.
I'm very analytical by nature. My main passions are law and study of the mind. Both require very analytical skills and logical thinking - which I am by nature. Have always been consistently score as INTP in Myers-Briggs.

And no, I didn't attacked you in my first response to poster. I'm sorry if you feel that way. Actually, I never read your first response. I just read the poster's complaint. I only responded because of your post on differentiating between transference and attachment. Yes, each has a right to their opinion. I love reading different views. It's the only way one can learn.

And you're right - I'm not going to go round and round with this topic. Please read my last message to "All" at the end of this post.

Alteredstate01 -

Not sure if I'm feeling what I'm feeling because of current personal experience. Recently, I had an argument with psychiatrist because he doesn't believe that I want to get better. I already like him because we click but now better because now I know he's involved emotionally - that I'm not just a patient with a number whom he gets to experiment drugs with. I'm still debating if his personal involvement will jeopardize my treatment (he got so frustrated because I have a logical answer to everything he said that he hung up on me).

My T? Not sure yet. Still trying her on. So.. only time will tell. She did become a mediator between me and pdoc, which is funny. She thinks that I'm going to drop him (because I was so dang mad at him) when in reality... I was about to drop her because her speciality is different than what I have been pre-dx with. I just don't want her to feel that she's incompetent... I just need someone with more experience with my pre-dx.

All -

I don't think it's significant at this point whether Sezzie is experience transference or attachment. What's important is that she needs to deal with this issue. If we focus on labeling on the problem... then the actual problem will never be solved. And I think we all agree that she needs to face her T in order to do that.

Psychology is not an exact science. We can only determine labeling by what the person tells his/her pdoc. And it takes a brilliant, experience pdoc to correctly dx a patient on a first try.

So... what I'm saying is... specifically in mental health - a patient can go to 5 different pdocs and gets 5 different opinions. This is why many changes pdocs, therapists and drugs.
Even in medical field we'll experience that but only medical field a dx is important because it is an exact science.

the only thing I am going to repeat here is that tomorrow the original poster meets with her therapist and has asked for suggestions of what she can do and say at that appointment so again here is what I posted that I would do.

If this poster was me and I was brainstorming this from the idea that it is my situation here are my options based on how I do things -

I can write what I am feeling out and then tell my therapist
I can write what I am feeling out and then hand my therapist the paper.
I can print off this thread and give it to my therapist.
I can walk in and request a new therapist and walk right back out the door.
I can request a new therapist and then talk about why I want a new therapist.

I could get a shoe box, glue, construction paper, and make a diarama depicting my feelings

this last one I actually did when I had a sexual attraction to a therapist. I mad a scene inside a shoe box of the therapy office, me sitting on the couch and the therapist in the chair at the desk which clearly shows I know what the relationship is really like and about, the balloons hanging betwween us in the air was the actual conversations pointing to the person that was saying them and the balloons pointing to my head behind be were holding hearts and so on.

The therapist saw my art therapy project and started laughing becasue that therapist had never seen this approach to that issue before and then we discussed the options together of whether or not the two of us could and wanted to remain a therapy team. it was a great conversation and the diarama lighted the mood so that we could talk about it.

We decided to get a new therapist on of my same gender because I am not gay or a lesbian. that way I will not keep having sexual attractions to my therapists.

I still have contact with that therapist for he was the one and only male therapist that I liked let alone fell in love with. and that therapist still has the diarama on display in the office and he says in his words -

"it has helped many abuse survivors talk about the attachment issue before they even start experiencing it. Thanks to your diarama I can now hold on to my caseload of female clients. There was a time when I thought I had some contagious desease because a majority of my female clents whould start experiencing problems and want a new therapist. Now they see the diarama and the issue of client therapist relationship and a client building an appropiate attachment to me is right out there in the open right from the first session."

Sezzie - please let us know what you decided to do and how it went. good luck and hope things turn out the way you want them to. Hang in there.

[Sezzie]

Hi guys
Thank-you for the responses you gave to what I first wrote about. You've obviously got a lot to offer. Thank you for your posts. I've been thinking about it further and I think it's a bit more than the hots actually. I think I like my therapist because he represents someone who I would like to have a relationship with. He represents someone who I would have a full on relationship with. I am attracted to him on a different level. He's much too old for me and it is totally wrong!!! I just think he represents a sort of soul that I would be interested in a relationship in. I don't think he would be viewed as an extremely attractive man to other people, it's more my own view of him. I must sound really obsessed by now. I think about him too often. I just spoke with him yesterday and I don't think I should mention all of this. What do you guys think of this now?
It's all a bit hairy!!!

Love Sezzie

[zombiette]

Hey Sez,
well said, it think u summed it up really well just then, u seem to understand why u feel this way and when u think about it it makes a lot of sense...i'd recommend bringing it up with him...ur in a safe place there, he's not going to tell anyone b/c he's bound by ethics and the like. besides, chances are if he's old then he's been a T for a pretty long time and he's probly seen it all by now! he's probly had clients present this before and knows how to deal with it properly. maybe if u feel uncomfortable saying it to his face u cld write him an email about it. u don't need to tell him everything, u could just say a little bit of what's been said here and test the waters with that.
Love,
Zombiette.

[JustAPixie]