[MattMVS7]

I am now having chronic depression and this is how I feel about it. What I'm about to say here is a personal belief I have and no amount of reasoning can convince me otherwise (though you are free to try anyway). I feel that who I am as a person means nothing. The only thing that matters is my pleasure. This is because without pleasure, then how you would feel about yourself would be absolutely nothing and you would be nothing more than a mere emotionless robot regardless of who you are as a person or great things you do in life. Therefore, this is the reason why pleasure is the only thing that matters in this case. Others may value you, but the fact of the matter is that you are completely dead inside and are nothing more than a mere emotionless robot if you didn't have pleasure. I would gladly sacrifice who I am as a person in becoming someone different (even a psychopath) if it meant having all the pleasure in the world and no depression.

I feel that pleasure is the only thing that makes me superior (for myself) and is the one and only true thing that defines me as a human being because, again, without pleasure, I would be nothing more than a mere emotionless robot. But since I have depression which has taken away some of my pleasure, that makes me less of a person. I feel that people who have all the pleasure in the world (even if they are cruel and harm others), that makes these people better than me just from the simple fact that they have more pleasure. They may lack empathy, but they still have all the pleasure in the world.

I feel what makes me superior (again, for myself) is having no depression in my life. If I were to be superior to suffering and life's struggles, then that means I wouldn't even have to deal with them in the first place. Or if I do, then I would completely overcome them. Otherwise, if I don't overcome them, then I will never be superior to my problems.

Therefore, if I were to have depression in my life that I can never overcome, if I wish to be superior, then I should choose to end my life because ending my life would completely overcome the problem of depression. Otherwise, I would forever be bound to being an inferior human being by my own depression.

Therefore, since I am chronically depressed right now, if there is no way of it going away completely, me choosing to end my life would give me the last laugh because I now know that I am superior to my own depression and suffering by choosing to overcome these things through death. I wish to dictate my own life and have no problems in life dictating how I feel (this would obviously include the problem of depression). So me choosing to die would give me this power and make me superior.

I am an atheist and I realize that this is the one and only life and that there is no God or afterlife. Therefore, since this is the one and only life, that is why I wish for it to be a perfect fantasy world (just in terms of my pleasure). Therefore, if it can't be that way, then I will gladly end my life. However, if I were to have problems in my life that don't hinder my pleasure, then that would be fine. But since I have depression which does take away my pleasure, that's when I would decide to end my life providing that the depression never goes away completely. But in the meantime, I would wait for it to go away completely first. If it doesn't, that's when I would end my life.

[glok]

Hello, MattMVS7. Do you intend to address the depression with professional help or by some other means? If not, since what you are doing is not working, waiting for a miracle cure seems rather irrational.

I wish you well.

[MattMVS7]

If you are the type of person to derive positive value from struggles, then philosophies that say struggles in life give positive value does hold true for these types of people. But if you are like me who utterly detests struggles and finds no positive value from them and wants nothing to do with them, then this doesn't hold true for me or anyone else like me. Again, I do not mind struggles themselves. The only struggle I do mind is depression (so this is what we are talking about when I mean struggles). The ideal truth would be that feelings of pleasure (including love and many others) are the greatest gifts to you and absolutely no one or nothing can take these away from you. How do you feel about that? I bet you are feeling right now that this is the absolute truth of life and that this is the main thing that makes us as human beings.

But what if I told you right now that there is, in fact, something that can take these things away from you? And that would obviously be depression. So how do you feel now? I bet you feel enraged that such an inferior abomination exists. I bet now you utterly detest depression and that there is no positive value whatsoever you can deem from it.

It wouldn't make sense anyway to derive pleasure (positive value) from something that takes away your pleasure. Also, if you somehow think that depression and struggles in life give your life greater positive value, I feel that this would be false because you can have much more positive value through having a life of no struggles and depression. For example, if depression is something you think has given your life positive value because of the fact that you are socializing and sharing your feelings with those who also have depression (or any other positive value of such), the fact of the matter is that you can socialize and share your feelings in healthier ways without struggles or depression in life and this would have greater positive value because with depression, you have both a negative and a positive going on. You have depression (which is obviously negative) and you have socializing and sharing your feelings with others which is positive. But without depression, then you would have 2 positives. You would feel happy with no depression (this is the 1st positive) and you would socialize and share your feelings with others (which is the 2nd positive). This is why having no depression in life has greater positive value (obviously because two positive values in life are greater than just one positive value). So basically, gaining positive value through struggles and depression in life is pointless when you could have gained positive value through something much better (a life of no struggles and no depression).

[Altered Moment]

I think it is obvious that many of us would choose a life with no struggles and no depression if it were possible for us. For us who suffer from depression I do not think it is a choice so we are left to deal with it.

If you feel your able to choose a life with no depression I would suggest you do so. If that choice is not possible than in stark terms you can live with it or commit suicide.

It would seem more logical to pursue a path of effectively treating the depression so that you can have a life without it. I do not propose that this is easy. It is a huge struggle. Some of us are able to obtain it but many of us have limited success in it and have to live with it. Seems that it just the way it is.

When you say pleasure how do you define it? I could easily seek pleasure and obtain it through many means. Drugs and alcohol are the first things that come to mind. There are many ways to obtain pleasure through what I would call unhealthy means. The hedonistic life style so to speak. So a lot depends on how you define pleasure and what means of obtaining it.

[MattMVS7]

I am accepting of the help and advice of others here and appreciate them trying to help. The reason we have this forum in the first place is to discuss how we feel. Since this is how I feel about my depression (obviously, I feel many things about it that already refute what others are saying here), then this is why I am discussing my debating points of view. I am hoping that someone can convince me that I am wrong which would make me feel better because if I am convinced, then I will view suffering, intellect, etc. to have greater value than pleasure and other things of this sort. But so far, based on my arguments here, this has not happened. And until that happens, I will continue to feel hate towards having struggles and depression in life and that the only thing that matters is being a "higher" being who is superior to those things (by being happy and not having to deal with these things). I only care for the status of my pleasure in this specific situation. Therefore, if I were to fully recover from my depression right now, that would give me a sense of empowerment and superiority above life's struggles (depression in this case) and would give me the status of a "higher" being (again, not comparing myself to others when saying that--I am only just referring to myself when saying this).

But until then, I have not yet achieved this "god-like" status and am just an inferior human being bound by life's struggles of depression and such. To me, pleasure is a "god-like" life force that makes you superior. Therefore, since I have chronic depression now, I have lost my "god-like" powers and I will wait patiently for them to fully return. If they do fully return, then I would now be able to channel this power into making music and make great music (as this is the "power" that makes me a good composer) as I obviously find that channeling pleasure into making music creates far better songs than intelligence or experimentation alone and that the greater the pleasure, the better and more catchy and such the songs are. I experience empowering mystical god-like feelings of pleasure through music and such (through witnessing things or hearing music that is of a mystical god-like nature) which is obviously why I conclude here that pleasure is this mystical god-like force for me that makes me a mystical god-like being in a sense and that to lose that through depression would indeed make me a lesser being.

But as for channeling negative emotions into making music, this is not who I am and that would only serve to make me feel even more depressed.

[venusss]

Not to sound offensive.... but greatest things weren't done by people who were seeking pleasure for themselves. World would be much worse place for everybody if people like Mother Theresa sought hedonism instead of altruism.

Pleasure is fine...for a while... but mindless hedonism is mindless. You seek more and more. Kinkier sex, sweeter macrons, better steaks, more booze and more bling, faster cars, trendier clothes and whatnot... but it all is meangless. Altruism on the other hand can make you feel more worthy for yourself. Adopting a pet can give you more pleasure than buying pair of Manolos... Altruism and thinking of others is about emotions too. Facebook message from a dear friend can cause greater and better emotions than momentarily material pleasure.

Don't get me wrong, enjoying things is fine.... but it shouldn't be all there is.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Not to sound offensive.... but greatest things weren't done by people who were seeking pleasure for themselves. World would be much worse place for everybody if people like Mother Theresa sought hedonism instead of altruism.

Pleasure is fine...for a while... but mindless hedonism is mindless. You seek more and more. Kinkier sex, sweeter macrons, better steaks, more booze and more bling, faster cars, trendier clothes and whatnot... but it all is meangless. Altruism on the other hand can make you feel more worthy for yourself. Adopting a pet can give you more pleasure than buying pair of Manolos... Altruism and thinking of others is about emotions too. Facebook message from a dear friend can cause greater and better emotions than momentarily material pleasure.

Don't get me wrong, enjoying things is fine.... but it shouldn't be all there is.

But, for example, if you are a sociopath who cares for no one else but yourself and you can hardly help it at all because of the fact that it is a mental disorder, what advice would you give now for such a person who is in my situation here and holds my exact views?

[Altered Moment]

Creating music I would say is a very healthy form of pleasure and is altruistic in my view. Maybe you create it for your own pleasure but others can enjoy it.

My question still is how does one become superior over the struggles of depression?

Just wait patiently and see?

[venusss]

Your views aren't working for you exactly well, are they? Depression tends to linger. And if you gonna obsess how you are not "god-like" cause hedonism doesn't satisfy you... you are only feeding the depression.

Why insist on calling yourself a sociopath (looking for excuse? I don't except the "I cain't help it, I am ill", sorry)?

You can help a lot of things. If your ways aren't working, maybe it's time to reconsider rather than hoping shallow hedonism will satisfy you again. I believe one needs more purpose then seeking pleasure. Pleasure comes also from feeling good about yourself, having purpose... buddhism says suffering is part of life... and that makes a lot of sense... nobody has ever gotten through life with pleasure only. If you obsess about not feeling pleasure all the time... you will not be able to enjoy the good things when they come. Pleasure comes from lack of suffering. But one has to feel sadness to be able recognize happiness.

[venusss]

Also... it is possible to live with depression. You can even master it to the level you can be depressed AND simulatously enjoy things (or at least enjoy them retrospectively).

Feeling bad is not the end of the world. It doesn't last forever. Dodging the struggle however, doesn't make you "god-like". It makes you somebody who dodged a struggle. And it deprives you of the happiness that you could have experienced.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Your views aren't working for you exactly well, are they? Depression tends to linger. And if you gonna obsess how you are not "god-like" cause hedonism doesn't satisfy you... you are only feeding the depression.

Why insist on calling yourself a sociopath (looking for excuse? I don't except the "I cain't help it, I am ill", sorry)?

You can help a lot of things. If your ways aren't working, maybe it's time to reconsider rather than hoping shallow hedonism will satisfy you again. I believe one needs more purpose then seeking pleasure. Pleasure comes also from feeling good about yourself, having purpose... buddhism says suffering is part of life... and that makes a lot of sense... nobody has ever gotten through life with pleasure only. If you obsess about not feeling pleasure all the time... you will not be able to enjoy the good things when they come. Pleasure comes from lack of suffering. But one has to feel sadness to be able recognize happiness.

You're right in saying that even though if one were a sociopath, that they can force themselves to help others anyway and such regardless of the fact that they derive no pleasure from it. Now you said that there is greater pleasure in helping others and such. But for such a person here who is a sociopath, the greatest pleasure will and always will come from their own self-focused desires in life regardless of how much they choose to help others. This would be because if you were to have a severe mental disorder (which would be not having or having very little function of certain brain processes--in this case, having little or no empathy for others and having little or no pleasure in helping others and things like this), then no amount of helping others and such can ever give your life a sense of greater pleasure. Again, the greatest pleasure will always come from your own self-focus in life. I realize that choosing attitudes and actions in life create greater function in certain brain regions (in this case, the attitude and actions of a sociopath choosing to help others which would create greater function in processes in the brain that are responsible for deriving pleasure and such in helping others). But the fact of the matter is that people with severe mental disorders are very likely to never be able to fully recover such processes in the brain and never eventually have greater function in these processes of the brain. This would be because these processes are either so far diminished or damaged.

[venusss]

Again... are you trying to justify your way that is not working?

Your problem seems to be as well the inability to accept the pain and work through it (but there is not other way, I am sorry to say). Your definition of what is superior is rather skewed and is hurting you. You are basically beating yourself down for feeling and struggling and draw black and white picture of your world. Not sure what you want from life... constant pleasure or nothing at all? How about setting your expections to something more realistic, accepting joy and struggle, fighting the bad and enjoying the good moments, without obsession about being "god-like" for feeling good?

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Again... are you trying to justify your way that is not working?

Your problem seems to be as well the inability to accept the pain and work through it (but there is not other way, I am sorry to say). Your definition of what is superior is rather skewed and is hurting you. You are basically beating yourself down for feeling and struggling and draw black and white picture of your world. Not sure what you want from life... constant pleasure or nothing at all? How about setting your expections to something more realistic, accepting joy and struggle, fighting the bad and enjoying the good moments, without obsession about being "god-like" for feeling good?

I would be able have this attitude if I believed that there was a God and afterlife. If I had this belief, I would realize that my desire to be a superior god-like being with all the pleasure in the world is something that would await me in heaven. And that would be the motivation for me to get through this life in order to earn something much greater than this life of pointless depression and struggles. But now that this belief has been taken away since I am now an atheist, the only thing that matters is having that promised afterlife I lost here on Earth just in the sense of having no depression and actually having a life of full enjoyment even though there will still be struggles in life that will hinder my pleasure (however, only for brief moments unlike my chronic depression which hinders my pleasure 24/7).

But since I have chronic depression, to me, this life is basically worthless now, now that it has no reward in the end for all your suffering but being dead from old age later on. I realize that making the best of your life despite any struggle in life is important. But the reward for all your struggles of being a god-like being with all the pleasure in the world in the afterlife is the only thing that matters to me. Without that, then making the best of your life despite your struggles is pointless. In that case, it would make no difference now whether I decide to die now or make the best of my life and eventually die in the end anyway. You are going to die in the end anyway and any positive message that you can come up with such as "At least I made the best of my life," even that message itself dies in the end with you. Even if someone were to be inspired by you deciding to live your life to the fullest despite your struggles, that message of inspiration would die with them in the end, too. And it also wouldn't matter to you anyway in the end if someone were to be inspired by you because even that feeling you had knowing that you were an inspiration to someone--that would also die in the end with you and be nothing in the end as well.

[venusss]

I don't really think religion is about being good so you get pleasure as reward. It's about being good... because it right thing to do.

You sounds very depressed and trying to find something to get you going... but I really think you are doing it wrong. Btw... altruism can be rewarding right now. Being loved and admired feels great. Having somebody to talk to can help more than seeking some mindless pleasure to escape your thoughts.

[Altered Moment]

I for one thing there is meaning and purpose and honor in suffering. And in the struggles of overcoming things in life. There is huge personal growth and satisfaction in it. But I realize you don't buy that.

My question still is how do you define pleasure?
Do you not think it is possible to overcome depression and create a life of pleasure?
Your strategy seems to be sit and wait to become a god like being.

[MattMVS7]

Now there is also something else that this chronic depression has taken away from me which is my pursuit in becoming a composer. To me, composing music is about expressing your emotion and experiencing emotion from music. Therefore, since depression has taken away my main and only reason for composing music (my pleasure), this is why I have chosen to give up on it. If I were to still choose to pursue my dream anyway, I would feel anger and more depression knowing that some of my pleasure has been taken away and has hindered me from fully experiencing pleasure from listening as well as expressing (through composing) music. But there is one thing I do in which I no longer focus on the status of my pleasure and instead focus on something else which would be playing videogames. When I play videogames, nothing else in the world matters (not even my emotional well-being or anything) and the only thing that matters is focusing on playing the game. However, the same does not hold true at all for my dream of composing music as my whole reason for composing in the first place is my pleasure and making use of my pleasure in composing music. It's when my pleasure creates great music that I feel a sense of empowerment and superiority in having pleasure because it is like a "power" to me that makes me a great composer. In short, composing music is an expression of my life having full pleasure and just how great that it is and just how it makes me so powerful as a person and a composer. I then share this form of expression in the form of composed songs to other people so that they will admire, be in awe and such which then gives me even more pleasure in return knowing just how great a life of full pleasure is and how great that makes me as a person and a composer.

Now when I play videogames, my pleasure is not used for anything (I am just simply playing the game in order to experience pleasure). As a result, since my pleasure is not being used as any form of expression, I am not focused on my pleasure (my focus is now on something else that brings me pleasure). This is why I have chosen to give up on my dream in becoming a composer and have instead chosen to play videogames because, again, me choosing to compose music only focuses on my pleasure and brings me more anger and depression knowing that some of it has been taken away and has hindered me as a person and a composer. However, if my chronic depression does go away completely later on, then I will get back to my dream of composing music.

[Altered Moment]

That is a very admirable way of seeking pleasure in my view. Composing music and sharing it with others. I can totally understand how depression has robbed you of that.

if my chronic depression does go away completely later on, then I will get back to my dream of composing music.

How do you think your chronic depression will go away later on??? It will just happen??? That is not likely to be the case. I don't think playing video games is likely to cure it, that is just a distraction.

[venusss]

Now there is also something else that this chronic depression has taken away from me which is my pursuit in becoming a composer. To me, composing music is about expressing your emotion and experiencing emotion from music.

The best musicians had struggle in their life... maybe that is what made them so great and profound.

Depression hasn't taken it away, you gave up, because it's not so "pleasurable" as you want it to be.

Honestly, not to doubt you but in general "life is hard, life is struggle" kinda of music is so much better than "MY LIFE IS SO MUCH PLEASURE (and that makes me superior)" music. How many struggling artists made great albums when struggling, but gotten "better" to realese bland stuff about "I am happy now".

You seem to be dogding from pain, doing escapism on unhealthy level and obsessing about pleasure and feeling sorry for yourself that your life isn't one never-ending-pleasure.

In short, composing music is an expression of my life having full pleasure and just how great that it is and just how it makes me so powerful as a person and a composer

So you want to rub in people's faces your life is about pleasure and pleasure only, topped with some more pleasure why those who ain't "god-like" are depressive and struggle and are humans with ups and downs?

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Honestly, not to doubt you but in general "life is hard, life is struggle" kinda of music is so much better than "MY LIFE IS SO MUCH PLEASURE (and that makes me superior)" music. How many struggling artists made great albums when struggling, but gotten "better" to realese bland stuff about "I am happy now".

I can use pleasure in creating pieces of music that have negative feelings to it and derive pleasure from that and it would be far better than me feeling depressed and creating depressing music that makes me feel even more depressed. You can create songs that have negative feelings to them through pleasure and it can be just as good (and even better) than creating songs that have negative feelings to them through negative feelings instead.

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

So you want to rub in people's faces your life is about pleasure and pleasure only, topped with some more pleasure why those who ain't "god-like" are depressive and struggle and are humans with ups and downs?

I would not be looking down on others and thinking they are worthless and such in doing this. It would just be a form of expression for me and for me alone. Again, I would not criticize others and such when sharing my music (I would actually have a decent conversation with others in sharing and explaining my music). Therefore, I do not mean anything negative when I said this. I am sorry if I had made you upset.

[venusss]

1) So how you plan to help yourself?

2) how do you think you can enjoy life regardless feeling down at times? What you can do to have the strenght to overcome? This doesn't have to be forever. It can get better.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

1) So how you plan to help yourself?

2) how do you think you can enjoy life regardless feeling down at times? What you can do to have the strenght to overcome? This doesn't have to be forever. It can get better.

What I'm doing now in helping myself is exercising, taking medication and omega-3 supplements, and playing videogames for now. Me not caring about my struggles or anything through playing videogames is the best thing that will help me recover. Otherwise, if I pursue my dream of being a composer, that would make me feel worse right now.

But if I do fully recover from this depression, then I will pursue my dream of being a composer and laugh in the face of and feel empowered and superior to life itself and its struggles of depression and such. I assume you were under the assumption that I was instead laughing in the face of and feeling empowered and superior to people who have problems and such. This is not the case. It is life itself and its struggles and this life wanting to dictate who I am and how I feel through its struggles that I would be laughing in the face of and feeling superior to. I wish nothing in life to dictate how I feel and make me change who I am. I wish to dictate how I feel and who I want to be. Again, to me, struggles of depression and such are inferior concepts of life and I wish to rebel against them and bring myself power that I want and not something these struggles and inferior concepts of life want.

[SoupDragon]

l struggle to a greater or lesser degree with sui thoughts most days. Sometimes the compulsion feels on par to the cravings l had for nicotine when I stopped smoking. God, Buddha, Big Bang? Who knows what got us here. However if l accept that I exist as a human being with purposeful thought / actions standing on a planet, perfectly formed to support life, bobbing about in some vast space, then l must also accept that the amazing is possible, things far greater than my mind can comprehend. Therefore as l do not know with any degree of certainty (faith/ belief do not even scratch the surface here) what would become of "me'' if , were to kill myself, l do not want to take the chance of plunging myself somewhere darker and deeper.

To me that leaves 2 options, losing hope and condemning myself to a living heII here on earth, or keeping plodding, exploring internally and externally. Yes it's not easy, but we have a lifetime to find the solution.

[venusss]

and what if you never get fully better? Will you spend waiting for miracle instead of thriving despite struggles?

I disagree pursuing your dream will make you worse. Giving up and pointlessly distracting and wasting years will take toll on you.

If I waited for my issues to go away, I would never finnish uni, see many places (including Crimea...), done lot of things. I would be thousand times more depressed then I am now. Maybe even blaming my depression for "robbing me of things".

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

and what if you never get fully better? Will you spend waiting for miracle instead of thriving despite struggles?

I disagree pursuing your dream will make you worse. Giving up and pointlessly distracting and wasting years will take toll on you.

If I waited for my issues to go away, I would never finnish uni, see many places (including Crimea...), done lot of things. I would be thousand times more depressed then I am now. Maybe even blaming my depression for "robbing me of things".

Even if I were to pursue my dream of being a composer and gain years of knowledge and experience, if my depression never goes away fully, I would sacrifice everything and my musical talents and years of knowledge and experience in music by getting a lobotomy if it meant ridding of the depression and having my pleasure back (as a lobotomy is a brain procedure that takes away who you are, but is something that eases mental illnesses). That, or electric convulsive therapy. Otherwise, I would end my life. Therefore, it would be a waste anyway if I were to pursue my dream of becoming a composer and gain years of knowledge and experience because of the fact that if the depression never fully goes away, I would sacrifice these things in the end anyway. Therefore, for the sake of not pursuing my dream for nothing, I would wait for the depression to fully go away. As long as it still remains, I will never pursue my dream.

[venusss]

Why would you sacrifize them anyways? Many people live and thrive despite depression. That thing goes in remission at times. Or lessens significantly.

postponing your dreams will not make you happy. or happier. If you gain years of knowledge and experience you will have them regardless your depression. And you can feel good about yourself. Pride is form of pleasure too, ain't it?

nobody does lobotomy anyways and THAT wouldn't make you feel more pleasure anyways.