[hamster-bamster]

The expression "from the mouth of babes" attests to the fact that children are:

- not stupid
- very perceptive

[haunted_by_my_past]

One recurring theme that I have picked up in recent conversations with my wife - and I believe this statement is what has become the end result of her feelings on the crossdressing - is that she no longer has "passion" for me, and she doesn't think she could ever get that back again.

That to me is somewhat of a game-changer, because I do think that passion can return to a marriage once the love becomes first and foremost again. Whether in regards to my situation or to that comment in general - can lost "passion" be found again? If so, how? Reading other forums on the topic the answers are all over the place ... it's a cop-out, stop pressuring her for sex, give her space, try to "date" her again and do the romantic things, etc. Not sure if any of these really apply for me - just wondering if I've been dwelling too much on the crossdressing part of this - when it's the return of feelings that I need to be working on?

[Nicks_Nose]

Another perspective to consider is the fact that your partner was attracted to the male side of the person you project. That is what attracted her. That is what she is naturally pulled to. It would be no different if a Lesbian is attracted to a feminine looking form of females. If that person appears to desire to look any other way, that new image never did appeal to the partner you presently have. To find out that a partner you have been attracted to has been presenting them self in one form and now they wish to present themselves occasionally in another form. It is natural that that other form was not appealing originally to the partner who first married you. Do you see what I am saying?

It is as if the partner never knew the full you and it is normal human nature to change decisions on relationships as new information comes forth. This new information is not like learning that you like to pick flowers....it is a whole new piece of who you are. That changes the perspective on the type of partner your significant other thought he/she was marrying. When new information crosses personal boundaries, it takes time to think through, live with and see if it is adaptable. Once this person realizes that this is not what naturally attracts this person, it is natural that they would decide to move on.

HUGS

[haunted_by_my_past]

Originally Posted by Nicks_Nose

Another perspective to consider is the fact that your partner was attracted to the male side of the person you project. That is what attracted her. That is what she is naturally pulled to. It would be no different if a Lesbian is attracted to a feminine looking form of females. If that person appears to desire to look any other way, that new image never did appeal to the partner you presently have. To find out that a partner you have been attracted to has been presenting them self in one form and now they wish to present themselves occasionally in another form. It is natural that that other form was not appealing originally to the partner who first married you. Do you see what I am saying?

It is as if the partner never knew the full you and it is normal human nature to change decisions on relationships as new information comes forth. This new information is not like learning that you like to pick flowers....it is a whole new piece of who you are. That changes the perspective on the type of partner your significant other thought he/she was marrying. When new information crosses personal boundaries, it takes time to think through, live with and see if it is adaptable. Once this person realizes that this is not what naturally attracts this person, it is natural that they would decide to move on.

HUGS

I do get what you're saying... but the difference is I never asked her to accept that part of me, never asked that I be allowed to do it, period, much less publicly. I got hammered pretty good on the first few pages for being apologetic about it, but I am/was willing to give it all up for our marriage. Perfect world she would have accepted it, had fun with it, etc., but real world, I knew that wasn't going to happen and would never require that acceptance from her.

But you are definitely right to a degree... the presenting of the information changed her view of me permanently. And at this point in time it overshadows every other trait, accomplishment, act of kindness, event, etc. that we have experienced over the past 15 years.

[AAAAA]

Passion can return, but not until she works on getting over the issue that is putting her off. How long does it take? Well that depends. I can guarantee that it'll take longer than 6 weeks.

You violated her trust. You are who you are, and that's all well and good, but to be fair she didn't sign on for that. Right now I would imagine, she's angry, frustrated, resentful and probably hurt. Until she tackles that, you're just the guy that wasn't honest with her from the beginning. Her feelings are valid.

It's easy for all of us to sit back and judge her because she's letting this small issue destroy her whole marriage. But apparently this was a pretty big issue to her and she never addressed it. Her feelings are valid as well.

Everything we do have consequences. The consequence of your dishonesty is that your wife sees you differently. Even though you deserve love and respect, don't forget that this wound has been festering for a long time, 5 years. It'll take a long minute to fix it.

[Nicks_Nose]

It is a very challenging obstacle and if both people can communicate and listen to each other, it should balance out either way. Just take time at this moment for each of you to have space and just breathe. Still try to enjoy a sunny moment, a five minute rest listening to a bird sing, or a sunset, just something for the moment to stop all of the thinking and contemplating and what-if-ing. Remember a funny moment you both had ora movie or ice cream you both like and remember the similarities. Ask you partner if she remembers a funny moment.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by AAAAA

Passion can return, but not until she works on getting over the issue that is putting her off.

Not necessarily. Plus, it may never happen or take too long. A simpler, faster way to try to return her passion is to become an objet du desir of another female (haunted_by_my_past, you do not have to consummate - you just have to become an object du desir and let the wife know about it or have her figure it out or guess or whatever - you get the point).

It is much simpler, is a tried and true way to revive spousal interest, and should work since we already know from haunted_by_my_past that the wife gets paranoid when haunted_by_my_past steps out to make phone calls. So despite all her coldness, she still cares enough (even if it is due to simple possessiveness and not to her having any remnant passion for haunted_by_my_past) to get paranoid. If she were completely indifferent, she would not get paranoid. So capitalize on it - insert a fun dynamic into the relationship.

Just be careful enough with the female who will make you her objet du desir - she is a human, too, and has feelings of her own that should be respected.

This method of reviving spousal passion predates the modern methods, such as:

- paid counseling
- endless communication, communication, communication
- working on issues
- filling worksheets listing what initially attracted you to each other
- attending weekend retreats to improve the relationship
- reaffirming the vows via expensive ceremonies
- ...

by many centuries , and as such may be dubbed a "folk remedy".

haunted_by_my_past, but you already knew it - you picked up on her paranoia many posts ago, so I am just adding detail to what you already know on your own.

[haunted_by_my_past]

Originally Posted by AAAAA

Passion can return, but not until she works on getting over the issue that is putting her off. How long does it take? Well that depends. I can guarantee that it'll take longer than 6 weeks.

You violated her trust. You are who you are, and that's all well and good, but to be fair she didn't sign on for that. Right now I would imagine, she's angry, frustrated, resentful and probably hurt. Until she tackles that, you're just the guy that wasn't honest with her from the beginning. Her feelings are valid.

It's easy for all of us to sit back and judge her because she's letting this small issue destroy her whole marriage. But apparently this was a pretty big issue to her and she never addressed it. Her feelings are valid as well.

Everything we do have consequences. The consequence of your dishonesty is that your wife sees you differently. Even though you deserve love and respect, don't forget that this wound has been festering for a long time, 5 years. It'll take a long minute to fix it.

I think you're the first one to properly put her side into perspective. Realistically though, she is just as all over the board as I am - just hides it better. As Hamster mentioned in previous post, the little paranoia keeps popping up here and there. This morning she discovered a text that I sent a few days ago that she had "missed" and actually started up a conversation, so obviously she's going back and re-reading our conversations looking for something.

Still holding on to the little things...

And Hamster, I have definitely been thinking about what you said in the last post. I've been scouring my friends list looking for an old female friend to "catch up" with. I don't want to play games... but I am definitely capable!

[AAAAA]

It takes a lot of work and deliberate decision making to let go of the little things. Sometimes it takes something huge to put the little things in perspective. It's easier to focus on the little things than to take on core problem.

I do not subscribe to the "make her jealous" theory. That may be human nature, but in my opinion it's deceitful and juvenile. And how do you think the end game would play out should find out five years later that it was all a game? Do you want another skeleton to come flying out of the closet? I'm the "honesty is the best policy" kind of girl. My advice would be to sit her down and say "I love you. I said until death do us part and I meant it. I want to be with you. But if we cannot have a real marriage that is fulfilling to both of us it's time to move on."

What you decide to do is up to you. I thought that you were trying to rebuild a healthy foundation for a lasting marriage. Games are a form of manipulation in my opinion. There's a reason that relationships don't last in Jr. High.

[haunted_by_my_past]

AAAAA = "Voice of Reason" :-) It sounded good in theory for a while

[hamster-bamster]

It is not a game to make her jealous. It is a completely legitimate way to let her see that her husband is valuable in the eyes of others. It would give her a touch of reality. If she reacts with jealousy, it is fine, but is not necessary. The necessary part is to let her see her partner through another prism, which is something she has been unable to do, and telling her that her husbands loves her STILL does not enable her to look at her partner through another prism - it just regurgitates something she already KNOWS but does not VALUE. So it is literally an exercise in opening her eyes - nothing dishonest about that.

[Anika.]

Hamster it is manipulating, trying to manipulate her feelings. And what about the other females feelings? It's dishonest and I agree.. childish. Aldults should not have to manipulate situations in order to get what they want. My ex did this and I saw right through it, did it work..no. it is a game for all parties, only two parties would ve unaware they were even playing.

And besides how long would this type of push and pull feeling last for the wife. Sounds like a temporary effect.

I agree with AAAA.. keep it honest. Keep your integrity and and be true to yourself and others. Even if it doesn't get the reaction you want at least you can feel good about yourself and how you handle life. That's worth something.

Maybe she already does see you are valuable to others. I don't think thats her issue. One can still know your great qaulities and still not be in to it. And what is a small or non issue to some is a big issue for others and that is fine. We don't know what goes on in her head and that would be a big assumption. Someone can value someone and still not feel that person is for them. It's not that black and white.

I think you have got some really good advice so far and I hope she will come around and want to work this out together. It will take time, as these things do.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Anika.

Hamster it is manipulating, trying to manipulate her feelings. And what about the other females feelings? It's dishonest and I agree.. childish. Aldults should not have to manipulatre situations in order to get what they want. My ex did this and I saw right through it, did it work..no. it is a game for all parties.

And besides how long would this type of push and pull feeling last for the wife. Sounds like a temporary effect.

I agree with AAAA.. keep it honest. Keep your integrity and and be true to yourself and others.

Maybe she already does see you are valuable to others. I don't think thats her issue. One can still know your great qaulities and still not be in to it. And what is a small or non issue to some is a big issue for others and that is fine.

I think you have got some really good advice so far and I hope she will come around and want to work this out together. It will take time, as these things do.

I did not intentionally try to manipulate anybody, but attention from a male coworker (not only no affair, but a very formal relationship in which the male coworker and I used "Sie" in talking with one another - "Sie" is the German equivalent of the old English "You" back then "thee, thou" were used, which signals respect and distance") which was made known to my then husband accidentally (then H befriended the male coworker whereas I myself stopped communicating with the male coworker) did result in almost 3 years of very passionate non-stop monogamous sex between then H and me, and although that was not enough to keep the marriage from disintegrating, it disintegrated for reasons that were non-sexual (well, the ex H said that he would not have sex with my anymore because his desire for me meant that I had power over him and he wanted to be free from any sort of power coming from me, which is a very weird way of thinking but it does make some sense if you accept that thinking can be weird).

But hey we did have three years of non-stop passionate sex - cannot be that bad, either.

The thing is... manipulation does not exist. Even when you say in the most open and straightforward fashion that you love somebody and want to be loved back, you are saying it trying to influence the other party at least to some extent, which can be defined as being manipulative. In other words, if we really really really want to stop manipulating, we should just shut up forever. And, the economy will come to a complete halt instantly - in business, people manipulate each other, except that it is called "influence". There are courses on "influencing without authority" - how to get what you need when you do not have formal authority (in a top-down fashion of traditional corporations) to tell other people what to do, and yet, still need to have them do that. I have never been to such courses, but they exist - people take them and companies often reimburse their expenses because influencing is considered a very important skill in matrix corporations (which, unlike traditional corporations, do not have the top-down structure). So, not childish - these courses are for adults. Typical behavior interview questions: how would you get another person do something he or she is not necessarily interested in doing? How do you work through conflict and misunderstanding? etc. Diplomacy, communication skills, building partnerships, developing shared goals, OR, DEMONSTRATING THAT DOING SOMETHING THE PERSON DOES NOT WANT TO DO IS ACTUALLY IN HIS OR HER BEST INTEREST, etc. etc. - some example answers.

A family is akin to a matrix corporation in that the husband does not have formal authority over the wife, nor does she have formal authority over him. They have some shared goals and, at the same time, experience some conflicts and diverging opinions on things that matter - pretty much like a matrix corporation.

The other female's feelings - I did attend to them earlier saying that the other female is a human too and is worthy respect afforded to humans by humans.

[Anika.]

Ok but seeking out the attention for that specific purspose in mind is manipulation and a bit of a mind game. It's pre-meditated and it is definatly not honest unless he also discloses that he sought this out. Omitting truth or partial truths is still not the truth abd is still a lie.

Yes thinking can be weird, and feelings can be weird. As much as her choice might not make sense to many of us, it's well within her right to feel how she is feeling. I have a feeling the trust part might be the bigger problem. So more untruths is probably not the best way to sort it out.

I really believe that if you want to find true peace within you need to make sure your intentions match up with your beliefs.

Sorry Hammy, I still cannot agree. Businesses are very manipulitive no matter what they want to call it. And I can say I love someone and not expect anything in return. I don't say " I love you" to hear it echo'd back, I say it to express how I feel.

If people want to work together in their relationship and make comprimises they both want to make.. that is not manipilation. Doing things intentionally and hidden in order to sway the other for your benefit all while knowing that the other person would be opposed is. No one wants to have the wool pulled over their eyes.

[hamster-bamster]

Disclosing that Haunted wants to attract the wife's attention by pointing out to her that Haunted is valuable in the eyes of other women might be a good idea. See how she responds. Even just ask her - look, your being paranoid when I take the calls. It seems to say something. A person who is indifferent does not care, but you do care - think about why? Maybe you are actually still into me. think about it? really, why do you care?
So that would be a more direct and less manipulative way to work with paranoia and capitalize on paranoia without involving third parties who might have their own feelings. Sure. Whatever you do, you saw paranoia, so paranoia must have some meaning (as opposed to being random). Work with the paranoia.

Anika, yes, it is possible to say I love you just purely expressing your feelings without expecting anything - I get that. Still, there is a whole world of gray between pure self-expression and premeditated coldness - it does not seem that Haunted would find himself on the extreme side of premeditated coldness if he were to pick up on paranoia. He cares about the wife - otherwise he would not have opened the thread. So, he can just say - "look, I care about you and want to be with you, and you say you have lost passion and yet get paranoid when I step outside to take calls - tell me why! Tell me why because it does not make any sense!"

[hamster-bamster]

Anika, when you say that your ex H's "trick" did not work, it might be not because the trick was not good, but because you were done with the H. The trick revealed and confirmed that you were done with the H. So it worked as a good Litmus test, still - it informed you and confirmed to you that you were on your way out, with no regrets. So it was, essentially, a nice try - he did not get you back, but he tried. And, the whole thing probably did not take much time. Just compare it with endless hours of talking, possibly in the presence of a third party counselor, where the result would have been the same - divorce - but the cost would have been even higher.

[hamster-bamster]

Haunted,

Thinking more about it, her paranoia may simply be a very childish reaction, and, if that is the case, may not signal any remaining passion potential in her.

Imagine a young child who stops liking his toy and throws the toy somewhere in his toy chest and forgets about it.

Then somebody comes and wants to play with the toy.

Some children would go "whatever", but others would turn possessive and not want to let go of the toy, even though they have no use for the toy, but just because more possessions is better than fewer possessions.

She might be along these lines. Actually, it might quite likely be the case, because this kind of basic, immature, straightforward possessiveness just for the sake of possessing is a childish reaction, and all her other reactions are childish as well. When your priest picked up on your wife's inability to see shades of color, he was essentially saying that she is childish - the ability to see and appreciate nuances and subtleties and see the whole range of shades of color comes with experience of living. Your wife seems childish in that respect - things are black and white to her.

[haunted_by_my_past]

I can see all sides presented here... but basically I think I have a pretty good idea of where I'm at right now. Just a few details (and I think this ties in well with Hamster's last post regarding her childishness):

1. She recently stopped wearing her wedding ring. She knows that I'm upset about it, does not consider us separated, but still won't wear it. WHen I tried to confront her a week ago about she refused to discuss and I was ready to file for divorce that moment. Tried to blow it off as her taking it off for the gym, but forgetting to put it back on. Yeah right... We went on a family vacation the next day, and she did the right thing by putting it back on so I loosened up. However, since returning, she has stopped wearing it again. She texted me yesterday why I was angry ... said I'm not angry, I'm hurt by some of the things you are saying and doing. She says "I'm not saying or doing hurtful things". I said I don't think you are intentionally saying things to hurt me which is why I'm not angry ... but if you look down at your left hand right now you'll see what you're doing that's hurting me". Surprisingly (NOT), the conversation ended right there... and still not wearing it. This is causing a serious trust issue for me in addition to offending me.

2. In a discussion again that came up regarding counseling, she proved to me that she is speaking out of both sides of her mouth - "If I really thought there was a chance for change, I would put myself through it. but I just can't". So the first half of the statement says to me - "Making this work would be my ultimate option", but the second half says - "but you're not worth it". God forbid you try one more time for your kids, and the man who you said was a perfect husband minus this one issue. I don't need this.

3. Her grandmother died this morning. She wasn't even interested in getting a condolence hug from me. Really? Then she suggested that since it was open casket, that just she would go to the funeral so the 5 year old wouldn't have to see it. Really? First of all, the 5 year old will be in school. Secondly, you would deny ME an opportunity to pay my last respects to a woman who I was closer to than my own grandmother for the past 15 years? I was definitely offended, though she backed off when I reminded her about the little one in school. But seriously... there are babysitters for scenarios like this. She's starting to go out of her way to make sure I'm excluded from just about all social events as well, and using the 5-year old (who can be a handful I will admit) as the reason in most cases. I will remember that during the child support battles! :-)

I did go see an attorney this afternoon and I walked out of there feeling a bit empowered. I'm still not excited about ending it all, and I know as soon as she gets served it will be ugly for a little while and she will make me feel like a real villain... but it's starting to become very obvious where I stand. My only problem with timing right now is her having surgery in 2 weeks, and needing my help for a few weeks during recovery. I'm not going to abandon her, and I'll pray that during this time we can bond and find common ground and peace again... but I'm not holding my breath for a miracle, nor will I be treated poorly during this time either.

Writing's on the wall ... the end is near.

[hamster-bamster]

Incident 3 is sufficient to say that end is near without regrets. Incident 3 is very telling and basically shows that she is a vapid person. You should be able to do much better than that. Since incident 3 happened already, I retract the idea of talking to her about her possessiveness or trying to involve third parties to demonstrate your value in the eyes of others because it is pointless by now. She is on a path of war when she excludes you from all social events, so at this juncture your having seen the lawyer is a good step in the right direction.

[AAAAA]

Hamster and I cannot agree on this topic at all. This is how I see the situation with removing her wedding ring, funeral etc. She's trying to disconnect without having to do the work. Without having to face the drama and emotions that come with a break up. I think she's trying to sneak out the back door. Like one day you'll come home and not notice that she's gone. It won't work, she's not thinking clearly, but I'll bet she's trying to avoid dealing with you. She's clearly telling you that she's done but she's trying to avoid the painful conversation.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by AAAAA

Hamster and I cannot agree on this topic at all.

... She's trying to disconnect without having to do the work.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Incident 3 is very telling and basically shows that she is a vapid person.

I am puzzled reading that you think we are disagreeing whereas we are saying very similar things (90% overlap).

[RoseBee]

Originally Posted by haunted_by_my_past

So my question... to the ladies: when you start feeling this way, what in the world can possibly change my situation? Have any of you been in this situation where you found out this type of secret years later (with an otherwise perfect husband) and you could never get over it? As I see her continue to withdraw from me, is it possible that a separation could be a wake up call for her and force her to deal with her feelings? My fear is that it would completely backfire and she'll realize she's much happier without me.

Thanks.

There are some things that, unfortunately, are deal breakers...even in otherwise perfect relationships. This may be one for her. I am in a relationship now and there is something I just can't get over. I have to make the choice to deal with it, even though I can't let it go, or leave. Currently, I am making the choice to stay. I don't know if there is any comfort in this for you, but there isn't anything you can do as the problem is hers and hers alone. *hugs* I am so sorry she can't accept that part of your past. I am also sorry that there are things that are deal breakers that some people, like me, just can't deal with and when we do, we tend to withdraw.

[AAAAA]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

I am puzzled reading that you think we are disagreeing whereas we are saying very similar things (90% overlap).

I don't think that trying to avoid the pain of ending a long term relationship makes her vapid. Nor do I think she's on that path to war. I think she's doing everything within her power to avoid any type of confrontation that will bring it to a head, but instead hoping that he'll get the hint and leave her in peace. It's not a healthy mature way of dealing with the situation, but the fact that she's stewed with an issue for five years without cluing him into the fact that she's unhappy tells me that she doesn't have the tools to deal with this in a healthy mature way.

At the time my own relationship reached its breaking point, I thought that I'd made myself perfectly clear. I was sure that my husband just chose not to see what I was telling him verbally, physically, and emotionally. I can see now that he just didn't have a clue. Men and women truly do speak different languages.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by AAAAA

I don't think that trying to avoid the pain of ending a long term relationship makes her vapid. Nor do I think she's on that path to war. I think she's doing everything within her power to avoid any type of confrontation that will bring it to a head, but instead hoping that he'll get the hint and leave her in peace.

...

Men and women truly do speak different languages.

Personally, I have not found it to be the case that women and men speak different languages, because I relate to and understand some men but not others well, and, some women but not others well. Do not see any patterns emerging along the gender lines. But to the extent that she is pushing the burden of facing the pain from herself fully onto her husband, she is being:

- possibly immature
- possibly vapid
- possibly a coward

and a number of other things, but either way, this is not an endearing personal quality.

This is because somebody has to take the pain. She understands it - she is not 2 years old. If she pushes responsibility away from her, she is not making the pain disappear by magic, but, rather, she is pushing the pain of making difficult decisions onto her husband. Whatever word(s) we use to describe a person who is pushing the responsibility for making difficult decisions solely onto her husband, we probably would agree that the person lacks in certain important qualities. Hence, the words we are using, while different (vapid is not equal to immature), both carry strong negative connotations.

[haunted_by_my_past]

I think you are all correct in this case. I do think she is purposely doing things to upset me just enough, but also being nice at the same time so it will look like she's trying. But not wearing the ring to me, does not qualify as trying.

I do monitor text activity as best as I can, I can see who she is texting via our phone provider's website but not read the messages themselves. The last time I asked, I found out that her and her mom had not told her Dad anything about what was going on - because they were afraid of him overreacting worrying about his grandkids, etc. - was waiting until a better time. With the grandmother dying this week, she has spent a lot of time with her family this week without me while I was working and getting the kids where they need to go. I have noticed today a very large increase in text activity with her Dad... so my suspicion is that he knows now, is panicking, and things may be coming to a head soon (for clarity sake - he has nothing against me, nor does her Mom, but he will protect her and would pay for the best lawyer around just to make sure she was protected properly). I do agree that she is waiting for me to make the call, which I have no intentions of doing until her surgery and recovery is over - unless I'm pushed over the edge.

Bracing myself... after my visit to an attorney yesterday, which she does NOT know about, I do feel a little more empowered and feel very good about my chances to get what I want out of it.