Sparks fly

I'm not sure what happened at my session tonight. There were some rather contentious exchanges. Maybe "contentious" is the wrong word. Were we arguing? Maybe just each expressing different viewpoints? I feel scared now. Apprehensive. Unsettled. Maybe I shouldn't have done that.

At first, we just chatted. Then I tried to start in earnest and couldn't think of anything to say. T started to say something like, "it seems like you're doing really well these days and...." I cut him off at the pass. I was afraid he was going to say, "you're doing really well, you don't need to see me anymore."

I asked T about something he had said at our last session. I wanted to talk about what he had meant. He said he thought that we had such a close rapport and understanding that I would understand what he had meant without misinterpreting. OUCH! What I heard when he said this was, "clearly, I underestimated the closeness of our relationship. We don't have the rapport I thought we had--or else you would have understood." I was really hurt by that; we continued the rest of the session in the shadow of that comment. I felt T was telling me he had misjudged our relationship and that we really weren't close after all. That really pushed me away.

We talked about his dual/triple roles with me. I was trying to sort it out and really say good-bye to it, as I just want him to be my T now. That's all I'm paying him for now--I want to go back to that model and get confidentiality back. I thought we were there, but last session he indicated he was going to report some of what I had shared with him to colleagues. At first I accepted this, as I am used to it, and I may not like it, but it was part of the package deal. But during the weeks since that session, I've been realizing that I don't have to endure that anymore, that I can go back to doing just therapy and have the protections that therapy affords. He agreed to re-establish confidentiality and said he was glad I had told him this.

I told him I was confused with what he has told me in the past, compared to last session, compared to today. Today he told me about some new book he read and this seemed to be making him revoke promises he had made to me earlier. I told him it felt like "bait and switch." He got such a look of surprise on his face, like he could not believe I had said that. I guess it was rather strong. I later amended that to "it feels like you're pulling the rug out from under me. " He countered with, "it's not like I'm firing you as a client." That comment did not make me feel good at all. I guess T meant it to be reassuring. But we had not been talking about termination, at least in my mind, and I had not been worried he was going to "fire" me. His saying that made me feel like how could he even think of such a thing, and I sure better be very, very careful and not say anything to rock the boat, or he might decide to "fire" me. I suddenly felt he had all this power. He could just "fire" me and that would be the end of us.

Somehow I began to tell him how I felt about his comment from earlier in the session. (This is highly unlike me to realize something bothers me within a short time of when it happens. And even more unlike me to be able to discuss it so soon.) What was that, he wanted to know? So I started to tell him how I had felt when he said he had thought I would understand because of our rapport, but as I started saying this, I became very hurt again, because it was VERY painful to me to think that T was diminishing our relationship--"guess we're not as close as I thought we were." And I heard the hurt come into my voice and had a hard time continuing and I knew immediately that T knew I was upset. I had to stop talking, and then I started crying. CRAP! It was so dumb to be so hurt about this thing and then to cry about it right in front of T. Essentially showing my hurt over this thing let him know how much our relationship means to me. I covered my face and just tried to not cry or let him see me, and I also thought this was just so f**king absurd to be this hurt about this little thing that I couldn't even speak, so I started kind of laughing too. I was hurt-crying-vulnerable-embarrassed-laughing, all at once. T started laughing a little too. This is so stupid, I said. And I apologized. (Highly unusual--I never apologize for my feelings to T.) I did manage to choke out why I was so hurt. The whole thing was simultaneously mortifying and painful. I can't really remember how T reacted. I think I remember him saying, "there you are, here is our rapport."

He commented that when the frame wobbles I get confused and pissed off. That statement itself pissed me off. I have tolerated the most wobbly frame in the existence of therapy, what with his triple roles. And I have hardly ever complained or whined, but just trusted him to hold the frame for us (which he has, admirably).

On the way out, I told T the story of the first time we went outside his office together (a short walk to his car to get something), and what it had meant to me. I don't know why I brought this up. Maybe I was trying to make amends somehow for all that other stuff I said. T seemed to appreciate the little vignette and told me he remembered. Then he gave me a hug, which was very very nice, as we have not hugged for quite a few sessions.

The whole session was just very strange and highly confusing. I felt like I was pretty frank with him at times, blunt to excess, like with the "bait and switch" comment. I think I was hurt from his "no rapport" comment and that was my anger speaking. I am feeling scared now, like I shouldn't have said those things to him, and the s**t is sure gonna hit the fan now. I know that is my childhood past talking, but that knowledge doesn't make the feeling go away.

(((((((((((((((sunny)))))))))))))))

i'm too tired to say anything intelligent right now, but i just wanted you to know i read your post and i feel for you. that sounds like such a tough session, but it does sound like you both were trying to reconnect at the end. you have a good relationship with your t. i do think you misinterpreted what t meant when he said the thing about you not understanding what he meant. i think he was trying to compliment you and say that you two are so close--rather than that you are not. i think he said one thing and you heard another. take care sweet sunny.

Yow...my goodness. Sunny I don;t know if I would ever be strong enough to bring this one up with my T but it seems that you will have to, at some point, or the whole relationship could founder. When a client is being careful not to say anything to rock the boat, where is the absolutely basic safety of that room, and of that relationship, where whatever needs to come out, can come out? Why would you continue to go there?!

Your posts show you to be so well reasoned, and yes strong, and you and yr T have worked so well together in past. I hope that you two will be able to work this one out. Ouch!!

sunrise

I'm sorry it was such a rough session for you. I think it's amazing how well you handle the dual/triple roles, it would confuse me greatly!

I don't think it was dumb at all to be hurt about this - don't diminish your feelings about this, they are important! And why is it bad to have your T see how important this relationship is to you? I think it's great that you cried - maybe it was over frustration at the session, frustration with T, sadness that you think the relationship is changing, or all of the above? No wonder you cried!

(((sunrise)))

You are a seriously strong and amazing woman. I have been reading your posts and progress since I joined the boards and what you have accomplished is huge. It is inspiring knowing that you have managed to adjust to the multiple roles of your T, take care of your house, your kids, and still somehow manage to work on yourself.

It sounds like T let you down, by wanting to share with a colleague, and also by giving you a clinical explanation for your feelings. Maybe you just wanted him to say he is there 100% for you now? IMHO, that is more than reasonable after all you have put up with, and there is nothing wrong with clarifying that with T.

So, I'm glad you let the sparks fly. I'm glad you were able to make the session all about you. Maybe you had to get mad to re-assert your need for T?

Be kind to yourself, sunny, you deserve it.

Thanks, reflection. I do think I overinterpreted what he said, but I don't think he was trying to say we are so close. I think he was trying to justify his statement from before--that he made it because he thought we were close and so he didn't need to explain himself. The corollary is that if he does need to explain himself, then we must not be close. He has often told me to seek clarification (from himself or others, such as my XH) when I do not understand something. And he has often clarified things for me about what he has said, when I have asked. I do wish he just could have clarified his statement (explained what he meant) without having to explain WHY he made his statement the way he did (because he thought we were close). He could have just explained without trying to tie it to our relationship. This will not be a glitch for us--I did share my hurt with him, and it is behind us. I do think it interesting that T felt the need to "justify" like that, and I think it shows a little defensiveness and that he is human too. It is a bit of a hot button for him and I hit it. I'm going to be sensitive to this and provide that "holding" that he does for me all the time.

I wrote that when T made his "I'm not firing you a client" comment, I became aware of the power he had in our relationship. But after the session, I realized that I now had some power too, in this particular "hot button" area. At first I was very uncomfortable with that realization and felt I DO NOT like having this power over T--like there's something I could hold over his head if I wanted to. But I'm feeling differently today, like I can rise to the occasion on just this one thing, and give him back on it what he always gives to me. I'm not going to use this power, and I'm making the decision to trust him to not use his power either ("fire me").

Because I really like him? Because I'm attached? Because we can still do a lot of good work despite this limitation? Because I can work this out so it isn't a problem? Because I have dealt successfully for almost 2 years without having some basic safeties that others have in therapy, such as confidentiality, so this seems like I might be able to handle it too?

But, yeah, I do see your point--thanks. This may require some discussion with T.

T and I really don't talk that much about our relationship. We do sometimes, and it is fine. We have talked of how close we are--I like basking in that, but sometimes the good feelings are very intense for me to handle. At other times (not often), we have talked about things that haven't worked well. Usually we spend a lot of time working on my feelings about other stuff in my life. I have this worry that if I keep turning the discussion in session to "problems" between me and T, that he will think I don't have anything else left in my life to work on, and so that must mean I don't need to be in therapy anymore. So bye-bye, sunny.

Thank you, dreamseeker. I guess I didn't want to be so vulnerable. I do cry a lot in our sessions, but I have never cried with him ABOUT him. That just felt way too exposed. I do know exactly why I cried--not frustration or sadness, but because I was hurt by what he said.

I am being brave tonight and sent T an email. I only email him occasionally and keep them very brief, just a couple of sentences, and they are usually about changing my appointment time. About half the time he doesn't ever respond, like about a week before my last appointment, I emailed him to request a schedule change and he never responded. (So I just stuck to the original time.) We do not do email therapy.

But tonight I sent him a much longer email--20 lines--tp follow up on a topic from our session. This is brave because I do not type personal stuff to him in an email. It's brave because if he doesn't respond to this one, it is a more personal rejection than not responding to a businesslike one about scheduling. I sent him something kind of along these same lines a couple of years ago, and it got ignored.

We'll see.

Sunny,

To me it sounds like because your T relationship is so close you both experience some of the same complexities in the relationship that really close friend have. The two of you know each other enough to make assumptions,ocasionally finish another sentences and accidentally say things that are reactionary. Most of us don't have these trip ups because our T tend to keep the therapeutic relationship on a different level. Its always seemed to me like your T relationship is operating on a different level--more like RL. I think your relationship is therapeutic in this way and that maybe dealing this this deeper type of exchange is where your at and what you need.

(((((((((((((((Sunny))))))))))))))

I've read your post a few times over the past couple of days, but can't seem to put a coherent thought together to reply. The nuances of therapy relationships have my head spinning right now.

I guess one thing that stands out for me in your post was that when you finally let yourself be vulnerable and cry about how you feel about the relationship, T said "here is our rapport". I thought that was very sweet. Like "here's Sunny, where has she been? I like her and I missed her". Very loving and accepting.

Having said that, though, you are still entitled to all of your other feelings - especially the anger that seemed to be bubbling under the surface for you. I REALLY did not like his comment either about 'I'm not firing you as a client" What kind of comment was that?? If I were at a point where I was feeling even remotely safe in therapy, I would call him on that. It does sound like a power play, whether he meant it that way or not, and I would need gobs of clarification before I could really move past it.

Do you think that at the root of all of this is fear? Fear that your relationship is coming to an end? The session started with his comment "you're doing so well, so..." that he didn't finish. You said that you have been seeing him for 34 months and that he doesn't see people for more than 36 months. I know this topic is SO scary for you, but do you think it's time to bring it up? Pretending it's not "there" doesn't make it go away. And you have such a beautiful relationship with him...I know that IF it is coming to a close, you and T will make sure that it ends in just the right way...IF you allow that to happen. Or, maybe you will ask him, and T will say "your situation is unusual with the divorce, so we still have quite a bit of time ahead of us to just work on you"...or...who knows? I know for me having that hang over my head would make it very hard to really let myself connect with T.

I hope you get a response to your e-mail, Sunny. It was brave of you to send it.

lots of to you...

((((Sunrise))))

Yep. I can so relate to that. Somewhere in the back of your mind you know there will one day be an ending and you fear it and guard against it...and then try to protect yourself from ever having it happen. It's hard to accept that something so wonderful must eventually end, but unfortunately it will one day. Try to enjoy every moment with your therapist. Probably not all that comforting...I know it's hard...

I can understand how you feel for wanting to protect the relationship by not wanting to "rock the boat". The therapeutic relationship is supposed to have different "rules", but when these things come up they give valuable information about how you relate to others as well. So your behavior and feelings are information that you can use positively in this relationship and in your other relationships. Maybe discuss that with T?

I think inevitably everyone has crummy sessions that include misunderstandings. I'm not sure how helpful my saying that is, but if you keep the lines open with your T, hopefully you can work through this and come out of it stronger. Sometimes words don't offer much comfort...I hope you hear from your T very soon.

Here is one of my favorite quotes:

The falling out of faithful friends, renewing is of love.

Richard Edwards (c.1523–1566)

Yeah, i think this is a really good point - and i think that mine works this way, too. T wants me to be clear when i feel hurt by her or need clarification, and she will do the same, because to her it is RL and is just as vaild a relationship as any other we have in the world. Because of this, i am learning how to be IRL, making parallels from my learnings with T to how other relationships work.
Not sure how this is helpful to your topic Sunny, but just to know that I too send my support in witnessing your journey.

I think you have something there. I really do like engaging with someone in this way. I like the nuance of our relationship and would like that in the future if I ever have a partner again. I would really miss this if T and I were to discontinue. I feel we are all human and have this amazing communication capability if we will only use it, whether verbally or physically or whatever--a slight change in the tone of voice, a barely perceptible widening of the eyes. T and I have a lot of different dynamics at work in our relationship, and I truly love that. I would sorely miss not being able to engage with another human being on all these levels. Chaotic, I do think I need very much to have this "deeper type of exchange." I think it has been a yearning of mine for a long time, so long I had forgotten I had it (during the two decades I was paired with a man who would not engage with me). Before I was married, I had a relationship with a man and there was a lot of similar complexity in our interactions--lots of nuance and levels. It is interesting because in the first year or so of seeing my T, I dreamt often of this man from my past--like maybe a half dozen times or more. I think the spirit of that man within me (I won't forget that signifcant relationship from my early adulthood) was awakened by my first interactions with T. I "remembered."

Thank you for picking that moment out. I liked that too.

I have a hard time feeling entitled to be angry. If I do seem to be angry, I feel I must apologize for it. Because of this, I often feel that when other people get angry at me, they should later apologize for being that way to me. When they don't, it makes me feel even more like scum.

I know--his comment was shocking to me. Superficially, I think T meant to be reassuring with that comment (sunny, don't feel like I'm pulling the rug out from under you--it's not like I'm firing you as a client or anything). But yes, I think there was a power dynamic going on here. And the "firing you" comment was a statement of power and of reminding me of my place. (Me, therapist; you, Jane). But as I wrote above, there was also this power, in one domain, that I seemed to have too. I was not as gentle as T or as cognizant that I wielded any power (I was oblivious as usual).

No, I am not ready to bring it up. I am great at pretending things are not there. I am not ready to end our relationship yet. I have some "business" yet to take care of. There is a particular topic I want to delve into with T. I have felt him being evasive on this in the last few months, but I could be imagining this. I also worry this is somehow tied up in his dual/triple roles with me and somewhat with this power thing too. I think I have to tread carefully right now, and see how things unfold in one particular area. Sometimes when we rush things, we wish we hadn't. I think it was good for us to have the session we had.

Thank you for calling our relationship beautiful. I don't have faith that we will make sure it ends well. I have a bad history of deserting my therapists--even though I haven't had that many. However, I have made progress on this. When my daughter and I terminated with our family therapist, we told him towards the beginning of the session, so we had about 40 minutes to do a meaningful termination. I thought this showed a lot of growth on my part. (My daughter was there with me, and in part, I wanted to terminate well to give her a good model of how human relations work.)

Yes, I'm quite pleased I sent it. I believe that T will never respond to it. My next brave act would have to be bringing up the email in our next session and asking for his thoughts on what I wrote. Don't know if I'll do that as it could be water under the bridge by the time we meet next. (There will be 3 weeks between sessions. )

((((Treehouse))))

Honestly Sunny I see this as a thought pattern still lingering from the past. I think most of the time you and your T are operating on a higher relationship plane. One where collaboration and respect and a mindset that the relationship elevates and is beneficial to both of you. Then a small comment, mis cue or negative energy ripples between you and sets off the old pattern of thought that relationships always have a power component. That there has to be a Me, therapist; you, Jane separation. Although it is difficult to always stay in the higher plane...YOU KNOW it is there. You know that your T, although not always perfect either, acknowledges and is willing to interact with you on this collaborative plane where the exchange is not limited by the need to alternate the dominance of power. IDK... maybe there isn't a powerplay going on at all, maybe you uneasiness is just a reminder that to stay in the higher orbit you guys need to do some fine turning.

What also seems to indicate that you are in an older thought pattern is your expressing fear about HIM terminating YOU as a client. In a collaborative, mutually respecting, humanistic, therapeutic alliance... the decision to end the relationship would be a joint decision wouldn't it?

This is the first time I have ever felt this way with my therapist. I have never felt a power dynamic with us. I have read before on PC that some people feel their therapist has "all the power", and I could never relate to that. Now I felt some of that for the very first time.

I'm not going to let myself be too spooked by it, though. I think one aspect of his comment was meant to be reassuring to me (that he wasn't "firing" me), so I'm going to choose to lean on that interpretation.

I'm not sure I would call it a higher plane but I would call it secure attachment. If I wasn't securely attached, I would let this really get to me. Instead, I will acknowledge that there was a power dynamic peeking out in session last time, but not get freaked by it. I have always trusted T to have my best interests at heart.

I don't think there was a powerplay, but I do think there was a bit of a power dynamic. It's OK. I don't think we need to be scared of it. It is one more aspect of a complex relationship, and acknowledging its existence need not be harmful. I see the relationship as very organic and the power adds "ripple" and "movement" to it. (I see it in my head.) It's really OK. Power isn't necessarily a negative. (It's just that before I didn't really see this component of the relationship.) To tell the truth, I am actually feeling quite charmed by my realization of this new dynamic. It's like the relationship keeps growing.... And teaching me more.

Yes! That is what I have always thought, and that is what was shocking to me about his statement. Like, ummmm, T, excuse me, but I'm part of this too. But despite that, there is a technical knowledge that yes, he could end this unilaterally if he chose to. There is a necessity to tolerate the ambiguity and I am actually pretty good with that (I am not a black and white thinker--at least most of the time ).

I am feeling new equanimity about the whole thing. If I was not able to return to that place of secure attachment, I would not have been able to email him (too risky, etc.).

I am actually feeling really good about all this right now. I wish I could see T sooner to be with him with this slightly different mindset and see how that feels. But I have a 3 week break.

I felt very confused after the session, but I did not think it was a crummy session. One thing I am really glad happened was that we had some discussion on the multiple role issue. I think I have been wanting to talk about that with T for a long time. I also am very glad I was able to tell him very firmly and communicate to him how important it is to me that I get confidentiality back. That was something that had bothered me since our last session and I was really pleased I was able to get this out on the table rather than just ignoring it and hoping for the best.

So, not a crummy session, in my book, but not all sweetness and light either. What is a "crummy" session, anyway? That's interesting to me.... Probably my single most painful session is my most memorable, and I am glad it occurred. So pain doesn't equal crummy. I think I would find a session crummy if it consisted of repeated, unsuccessful attempts to connect. That would be very unsatisfying and frustrating. And crummy. And I don't think our last session would be a crummy session in T's book either, if only for the reason that hey, yeah, sunny got kinda angry!

Great advice, thanks. Kind of like with my kids. They grow up so fast and then they leave....

It's probably a poor choice of wording on my part. Sorry...

"Crummy" for me would mean I didn't get my point across to him... that he wasn't hearing me. I didn't say what I meant to or it came out all wrong and he misunderstood. Or I didn't accomplish what I wanted to during the session. We weren't on the same wavelength...that type of thing. I think I only had one or two like that, though. The majority went very well. I suppose even the "less efficient" sessions have their benefits as well, though.

I love your equanimity..ness You seem to acknowledge when things get uncomfortable and don't sit right with you and then delve in to them and look for reasons. What you seem to do (that I don't do as well) is after you delved and come up with possible reasons you then actually try and talk about them with your T to explore the reasons you found more deeply. This seems like a better way of closing the assessment loop.

Hi Sunrise,

I've been following this thread with interest. If my t had used that statement, "I'm not firing you as a client," the word "firing" is what would bother me most. Partly because of the power factor, but also because to fire someone is to put an end to a business relationship. I wouldn't like being reminded that the therapy relationship is a business relationship that could be readily severed at any given moment. It would trigger my feelings of insecurity about the therapeutic relationship -- make me worry that my t didn't think it was real or meaningful! I'm sure your t didn't mean that at all, but that's what a comment like that would stir in my insecure heart!

Interestingly, you have the power to "fire" your t just as readily, since you are the one paying for his services. So his power over you in this matter isn't any greater than your power over him.

It sounds like you're doing a good job of analyzing why his comment bothered you. You are already on your way to seeing how you want to put this new realization to good use.

Thanks, peaches. I have tried on that interpretation for size and found that a piece of it is that even though we can each "fire" the other, T really does have more "power" in this because I believe our relationship is much more important to me than to him. Yes, I am sure he would be disappointed if we were to never see each other again, and maybe even slightly hurt if I suddenly fired him, but it would not be as devastating to him. He has dozens of clients and has been doing this for over 20 years. When people work through termination, do they ever ask their therapist how he/she will feel? I can see that could be helpful to know it is at least a little hard for them too.

I've actually wondered a lot recently if my T might actually get something from the exchanges between us. I kind of think she does...but then again that just might be wishful thinking. I know at the very least some of my emails make her laugh...she might miss that when I'm gone. :-)

Comments about termination always make me think...How am I really going to do it. Allow myself to feel the grief, but not look like an ***. But also not diminish the whole experience by just saying, "It was nice knowing ya, bye."

His firing comment would have rocked my therapy world. But, I think you know he wasn't meaning to make you question your relationship. I hope at some point you are able to explore ALL of your feelings about your relationship including those related to termination without worrying that just having the discussion itself will somehow start the termination process. For me I think this is the main reason I avoid talking specifically about my therapuetic relationship...I feel my talking about it will some how F*** it up.