triggered and scared after book talk with pdoc

pdoc bought a book because he thought the title looked interesting.

after reading the book he decided that he wanted to give it to me.

usually when we talk books we just tell each other where to go buy the ones we recommend. but this time he wants me to own the copy that he read. not just borrow it, but to keep it as mine.

he said i didnt need to read the whole thing, he just wants me to read a little bit. he then changed his mind and said he specifically doesn't want me to read the whole thing. just to read a little bit, because he thinks that would be enough. and he wants me to talk to him while i'm reading it, because he doesn't want me to get hurt. he wants to supervise.

it is a little essay written by an ex-oxford philosophy prof on mental manipulation and thought control. he said he wants me to read it because it will validate and ground my experience but also (and this is what triggered me right off) because it will help me understand what was going through the perp's mind when it was being done to me.

i am so angry that pdoc wants me to change my mind on what was happening. so, so angry. and angrier still that he is doing it in this way. feels like manipulation to me .

and scared. really, really scared. pdoc has never even used those words before - 'thought control' - so why is he using those words with me now? i want to tell him that i'm a good person so he doesn't need to hurt me but maybe he is right?

Deli,

Deli are you sure the reason pdoc gave you the book to read was because he wanted to change your mind about what happened? IDK what book you are talking about but by what you wrote here...it sounds like your pdoc is trying to help you understand how the perp was able to manipulate you. NOT to try to get you to believe that stuff wasn't as bad as you think it was or that things you think happened didn't really happen.

I know one thing I am continuing to struggle with in my own therapy is really understanding what life was really like for me at 5, 6, 7 yrs of age. The things that the perps used to so easily manipulate me into thinking that I wanted to be "bad", wanted to be abused, liked being abuse....etc are to my adult mind SO STUPID and unbelievable.I often judge the child hashly saying that she should have been smarter than that, blah, blah, blah. What is difficult for most people is to really understand what the whole complex environment was like at the time of the abuse.

IDK maybe your pdoc is trying to get you to see how the perp thought and could manipulate you and how...you are not alone. The perps techniques have been successfully used on so many victims that books have been written about them.

IDK another thought comes to mind...not sure if it applies to your book or situation or not but... Maybe if you could understand the way your perps mind intrepreted and processed things, you might be able to see that it wasn't YOU personally that did something to cause the abuse or perpetuate the abuse. It was THEM and their pathology, you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Sorry if these thoughts might be totally off base.

Deli, take some breaths and try to get away from the issue by something if you can by doing something physical.

Lot going on but: I don't see how trying to help you "understand what was going through the perp's mind when it was being done to me" means changing your mind on what was happening. Maybe he thinks you're not recognizing some of what happened in psychological, emotional terms--or whatever, but I don't see that as outside the norm for what T's and pdocs typically do.

"Thought control."

That can mean a lot of things. Since I dabble in philosophy, cognitive stuff, and the like sometimes, who is the author and what is the title? I'll take a gander at what it's about and what his/her oeuvre is and give you some feedback.

TRIGGER WARNING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>just in case

Deli,
I was thinking on the lines similar to what chaotic wrote that maybe it was to help you understand that it was the perp and his thinking that caused it and that it had nothing to do with you.

Chaotic,
I find myself struggling with something similar to your last statement of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My T mentioned something about that but I still have a hard time believing that. I told my T that there is more to it, that it must be me something to do with with me. I was a really quiet sweet little girl. I feel like they took advantage of that, and the fact that my parents were so in their own world that the men involved knew that I was an easy target. If that were not the case, how could it have been three people at different times in my life when I was so young. I must have been an easy target.

Then there were things that almost happened even as a young adult as well, just walking down the road and being approached by men. I was almost grabbed into a car full of guys once, another time when I was walking to work a car pulled over with two men in and an one asked if I wanted to go have *** with him. I was totally shocked as I was not even dressed seductively. Another time I was in burger king and I looked over at a man only to see him doing something totally perverted while looking at me. No wonder I have a hard time trusting men.

I just don't get it, I have never ever been the flirty type and always kept myself covered up because of how I felt just because of things that happened when I was very young.
I don't know I still have a difficult time with all of this and feeling like there must be something wrong with me for these things to have happened, I mean how could I have really been in the wrong place at the wrong time that many times? Something about me must have made me an easy target.

I can totally relate to this...and my T told me that perps are very good at picking their targets...and that because of the childhood I endured, I was an easy target...Of course, I didn't know this at the time, but it just really confused me how all these horrible things could happen to me at different times of my life with different people. I am not ready to face the pain of those experiences, to learn from them, to handle what's unfinished....and I am NOT willing to accept that my parents - who I love so dearly - played a large role in that.

(((((((Deli)))) Especially because pdoc said he didnt want you to get hurt and he wants to supervise, I think he cares a great deal about you and wants to give you (maybe) the point of view of the perp, maybe to lessen feelings that anything was your fault.

If you can understand what is going on in the mind of the perp, maybe you can understand that you were controlled and manipulated. When someone is so much older, they can easily "control" the thoughts of a younger person.

I struggle with this, too. Especially exploitation when I was older and should have known better. I blame myself and it is VERY difficult to see the manipulation of a perp. Especially when it is someone (as a child) that I loved and was supposed to love me. If I see him as a perp, then where does that leave me? Alone.

I could have written this myself. ((((((((((Blue Moon)))))))))))

Deli -
I'm sorry it was triggering. I can see how pdoc was just trying to help. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what was in his (perp) mind. And asking WHY WHY WHY.
Is it a bad thing that pdoc wants you to change your mind about what happened? Do you think you have a clear objective view about it? Personally, I think it would really help me to change my mind about what happened because I blame myself so much. I don't know.
It sounds like your pdoc is trying to help you in and indirect way, maybe to avoid being too pushy. I
Are you going to talk to him about how this triggered you and how you feel about what he did?

thank you all so much for your replies . i will try to address stuff in one big post because otherwise i think i will tie myself up in knots .

pdoc has had this book for a while, apparently, but has been waiting for a good time to bring it up. i was talking about how i am never sure if stuff really did happen, because not only did he have someone collude in denying the situation, but i've had subsequent therapists (old-T) also tell me they believe i'm mistaken about whether the stuff i "remember" really happened or not. but even very simple things e.g., i had a fight with dad last week which became incredibly verbally abusive, but the following day i wasn't sure if it really happened or not and if he really did say the things he did.

so that's when pdoc brought up mental manipulation and thought control. he said this book discusses the various techniques and that he recognises a lot of them having been used with me. pdoc wants me to start believing myself, and i think by presenting a different reason for why i doubt my memories (thought control instead of them not happening) then maybe i can start feeling more comfortable about the ambiguity around them. i feel a lot of guilt that i have these 'memories' when i'm not sure if they are even real - i feel like a bad person for making things up about ppl i love. so i think in that part it sounds like an ok book to read, even though i'm scared to recognise my experiences written out in black and white.

the part i'm sad/scared/angry about... . i dont harbour a lot of anger towards the ppl who did what they did - i see them as products of their own short comings and i feel sorry for them. not in a self righteous way, just in a... it's a shame that that's the only way they know how to get what they want. pdoc disagrees with me really strongly on this point - he thinks that what happened was very calculated and purposeful, almost like they were cold blooded and evil and enjoyed doing what they did because it caused me pain.

i get upset when we have this discussion, because it is the one topic in which we end up kind of arguing. usually pdoc is great and will say something like "i can see why you see it that way" and will validate that maybe i am (at least partly) right and this is his alternative interpretation. but this is the only time where i have heard him say "well, i think you are wrong".

the other thing is that it is something only he brings up - i am quite content with my own intepretation and don't really feel the need to explore what is going on there. so it makes me angry that we are having the discussion in the first place, and that pdoc keeps pushing his interpretation as the "right" one too.

the book itself is quite philosophical so probably would be an interesting read if pdoc hadn't made it so personal. i'm afraid i will read it from my own frame of reference now without being more open just on an intellectual level. it's called "mind****ing: a critique of mental manipulation" by collin mcginn.

re: the common experience we have of being taken advantage of over a number of occassions, even by complete strangers. i am not easy with laying all the responsibility on the other person, because even if they are excellent at reading & exploiting my vulnerability, then surely it means that it is something about me that encourages their behaviour. i'm in a potential situation like this right now, actually.

i enrolled in a photography course and had the first lesson last week. i don't even own a camera yet (wanted to wait & see what would suit me best) so i think you can say i'm worse than even a complete novice . i was hiring a camera from the instructor, and needed someone to show me how to turn it on. after the class finished me & this other girl were hanging around because we needed to pay and he got talking to us and was a bit... hmm. he essentially offered both of us jobs with him if we wanted to train with him for a few more months and then he offered us a lift home, even though we live about an hour in opposite directions. i get the job offer (probably just trying to get us to enrol in more courses) but it felt a bit odd especially after the lift of a ride home. but maybe he is just being nice?

i will probably go with the "being nice" interpretation. and it probably won't cause any problems at all with this guy. but i guess if i do it often enough then i'm doomed to get burnt again. but i really have no idea how to filter these things through.

Couldn't it be both? They "enjoyed" what they were doing, AND they did it because they needed to do it? They needed to revenge themselves on someone, and you were in the way?

Suspend judgement for a while? Don't assume either that he is "nice" or that he is a danger; wait until you find which is which? It could be either. You can be the detective who finds out which it is. Keep your own counsel; then you can decide what to do about it when you have the answer.

Deli! I see a lot of healing in this. Didnt you recently post something about facebook and the dangers all around you? Now, I know that this is a photography instructor, but this is a lot of trust in the world around you. I am very proud of you, Deli dear. I have had to make a conscious decision to trust and not immediately presume someone is out to hurt me. To assume the "being nice" interpretation as opposed to the "being manipulative" or "being exploitive" interpretation.

In another person you'd see this as blaming the victim. When a person is assaulted, does it mean that something about them encouraged the behavior of the one assaulting them?

sweet deli, you seem to be very invested in seeing your abuser as good while you see yourself as bad. have you thought about what you gain by seeing things this way?

Deli....
Just wanted to let you know that you are NOT alone in this. I don't feel any anger to the person who hurt me. He was SO virtuous in every other way, and it is much easier for me to think that there was something about *me* that made him to do what he did. My T thinks I am not in touch with my anger....that I am turning all the anger I should feel toward him on myself. I think it might help me to be able to feel angry....but I just ca't.

I think I can understand how scary this is to you. It is very sad and scary and disappointing for me to think what he did was so calculated.
I have ambivalent feelings about your pdoc being so adamant on this point with you. On one hand I am glad that he is trying to help you see something that might be more real than your current perceptions. On the other hand it feels like he is trying to make you feel/think a certain way that you simply may not be ready for.
I think it is good, though, that you are talking about it here and getting other people's ideas and thoughts. I think the more you talk about this and process it, the clearer it may become for you.

Maybe there is "something" about you that attracts these perps. It DOESN'T mean it's your fault they target you! IDK think of the small skinny kid in elementary school. He could be the most articulate, outgoing, kind, emotionally grounded kid in the world. He could be very careful not to show off his money, careful not to brag about what he might have, he avoids going to to places alone and being vulnerable, he might even try things to make his body grow faster. Yet he still is targeted and preyed on by bullies. WHY? For no other reason than the bullies see that they have a physical advantage over him. Would you tell this boy it is his fault they prey on him? Would you tell him HE is defective and deserves to have his lunch money taken? NO! there is nothing wrong with him, his body, his actions, his inherent worth.

There is nothing wrong with you.

this sticks out to me too, deli. you are so protective of your abusers...yet THEY are the ones who hurt you. there is NO good excuse for that. there may be reasons why they do the things they do, but it is not on you to "make" it all better.

oh, i've been reluctant to reply to this thread (i've been thinking so much on all of your replies) so first up i'm sorry for not replying earlier, and secondly thank you all so much for giving great input .

i am going to split posts a bit. the photography instructor thingy i'll deal with in the second post because there's been developments on that front and i could do with some practical advice.

yes, i guess you could be right, pachy. this comment has been sitting with me since you posted it, and i know i have a lot of resistance to accepting that they enjoyed it but i think what you said is approaching the truth. i still don't know if "enjoy" is the word i would use... more like, releasing negative feelings instead? so it feels good because you are getting rid of that bad energy (or displacing it, whatever) but it's not like... enjoyable in the way eating chocolate is enjoyable and you would want to do it regardless of whether you are happy or sad?

pdoc says this is part of the mental manipulation - that i'm the "bad" person in everything. it's not just to do with the other party being good (although, yes, i'm invested in that - quite heavily), but i feel this about myself with everything. i'm a bad person, therefore i don't deserve pdoc's time. i don't deserve to get good marks at uni, because (given that i'm a bad person) i must have somehow manipulated people into giving me good marks, not actually earnt them of my own accord. i touched pdoc's jacket sleeve once & i'm a doubly bad person for not only doing it in the first place, but also because i didn't offer to dry clean it afterwards so he could wear it again without it being 'infected' by me. and so on...

my one big fear is that people will find out how bad i am and subsequently hurt me because of it. but then at the same time i think that if i am a bad person then i don't deserve anything better anyway, so i'm just making myself worse by trying to avoid my due.


it means a lot to me that you would share your experiences, ktgirl. yes, it is scary to think that it was something calculated. i keep trying to avoid that interpretation. but even without it... it just doesn't seem to ring true? is that me being in denial, or is it an accurate perception of what really happened? how can i tell the difference?

but what if i encouraged it? what if i was the one who initiated it? that skinny kid you described - wouldn't you think he was partly responsible if he kept going up to the bullies and throwing stones? maybe he gets something out of being hurt and so kept encouraging it.

but that's the thing, right? no one else is doing the healing for me, so it really is up to me to make it better.

i don't know... nothing really 'fits' when i type it out like this. and i hate inconsistency! i will post about the photography tutor thingy tomorrow. this is all a bit much to process right now.

Deli, I totally get this, because I feel this way about myself.

But, to look at it from another perspective, what does being a "good person" involve? If you were a "good" person, what would that look like?

-Far

Yes, deli, I think you come pretty close to understanding what I mean -- as close as I do! It is "enjoyable" in the sense that it satisfies some need, a need to release a whole lot of uncomfortable energy. Anyway, that is the way I see it at the moment.

(((deli)))

I believe that the things the keep repeating in our lives are there for us to learn from. Whatever that repeating pattern might be.

From my own experiences, I found that I kept attracting people who would take advantage of me. I would be furious at the people who mis-treated me, and then I would extend my trust again, and be mistreated again. Somehow, something in me was telling these people that I would not stand up for myself. To heal from this I had to first find compassion for myself. Once I found a place of forgiveness, then I had to take loving responsibility.

I discovered that because I didn't honestly believe I was 'worth it', other people didn't believe it either. This doesn't mean I'm a 'bad' person, but it does mean that in the past I was taught that it was not 'ok' to stand up for my own needs. So, I had to really stop and consider what 'taking care of my needs' and 'loving myself' might look like.

Try to find a place of compassion for yourself. Whatever happened in the past, you are not a 'bad' person.