[dinosaurs]

yeah so ive been trying to look at t for like ages now and get nowhere with it and was gonna ditch him but that was like doing a runner. so its been kinda hard to go see him and talk to him and stuff. but i guess im doing that. and anyway he like said this stuff last time and it was like absolutely exactly 100% right and i kinda wanted to put it here but not really sure why. dont know what anyone could say about it. he says like im spose to email him more and stuff but i dont know. i dont really like talking to people. this is the stuff he said. he wrote it down so id remember it.

the problem you have is that you believe if "you" have any real relationship with another person you will "die". the reason you say/believe you can't get better is because you believe if you get better ie have a real relationship with people, you will "die". you avoid "death" by not engaging with people. you "get by" out in the world by only interacting with people through an outer shell and not letting them experience the real you. the reason we have been doing the looking exercise is because one of the ways you keep you "away" here is by not looking at me. its not important in the grand scheme of life that you look at ME its a vehicle for getting you to allow the real you in the room.

and i know hes right and stuff and i know the dying stuff is like cause its all like my identity so if i had a relationship then itd be like id ceased to exist and someone else was there. and if you cease to exist thats kinda like dying i guess. so i know everything he said is right but its like its just so huge and so much a part of me. i cant imagine it not being like that. i dont know what i feel. like some kind of awful and its like even thinking about this stuff will lead to "death" i just dont know how to be sit with that. sometimes i dream about just walking in there and being able to look at him and i get all determined to do that cause its just dumb to not look really. but it like never happens.

[ECHOES]

Isn't it great when T says something that rings so loudly with truth!
My T and I were talking about this last session too. About how being close to someone feels like I will be engulfed by the other, losing myself. "I" would no longer exist.

This came later in the session. In the very beginning of the session I felt myself being not totally 'there'. Pulled away, self protectively. This was the first time that, when I noticed this, I was able to get out of that foggy state and be fully 'there' and it felt very good and connecting. It was exciting to feel that nearly imperceptable shift from being psychologically removed to being present.

So, maybe this is a beginning for you. As he said, there is no pressure to 'perform' (to look at him) but there is now more information about this, and knowledge that he understands what it's about. It may take a lot more talking about it, and about how you feel about it, before you can take it in fully and before you can challenge your self protective ways and experience the joy of looking at him could bring.

You can't imagine not being like this, but I hope he's opened your heart to the idea of it

[Melbadaze]

Yes but not physical death more psychic death which I find more terrifying at times, sounds like a good session.

[dinosaurs]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Isn't it great when T says something that rings so loudly with truth!
My T and I were talking about this last session too. About how being close to someone feels like I will be engulfed by the other, losing myself. "I" would no longer exist.

This came later in the session. In the very beginning of the session I felt myself being not totally 'there'. Pulled away, self protectively. This was the first time that, when I noticed this, I was able to get out of that foggy state and be fully 'there' and it felt very good and connecting. It was exciting to feel that nearly imperceptable shift from being psychologically removed to being present.

So, maybe this is a beginning for you. As he said, there is no pressure to 'perform' (to look at him) but there is now more information about this, and knowledge that he understands what it's about. It may take a lot more talking about it, and about how you feel about it, before you can take it in fully and before you can challenge your self protective ways and experience the joy of looking at him could bring.

You can't imagine not being like this, but I hope he's opened your heart to the idea of it

I don't really get what being more "engaged" is supposed to look like. What else I'm supposed to do. I talk (usually). I tell him deep things and feeling things and pretty much whatever he asks. I (usually) stay pretty present now and don't float away. I don't look at him, but to be honest I doubt that just the act of looking would suddenly mean I am "engaged". I certain there must be more too it than that, but have no idea what it entails.

[dinosaurs]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

Yes but not physical death more psychic death which I find more terrifying at times, sounds like a good session.

Yes psych death, thank you for reminding me of that phrase. I might look up some things about it thank you.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by dinosaurs

I don't really get what being more "engaged" is supposed to look like. What else I'm supposed to do. I talk (usually). I tell him deep things and feeling things and pretty much whatever he asks. I (usually) stay pretty present now and don't float away. I don't look at him, but to be honest I doubt that just the act of looking would suddenly mean I am "engaged". I certain there must be more too it than that, but have no idea what it entails.

Maybe looking at him is a first step to being engaged. If you do it, it is a start, and other steps may become clearer. I have felt this way with other things in therapy--not the looking at my T--but stuff like telling a certain memory or being angry. It is a very real and scary feeling to feel one will die, and one naturally pulls back. I think your T sounds wise and caring. Maybe you can continue to build trust and take small steps. Is it the looking at him that is scary (you seeing him) or is it that he will look see you if you do it? I'm wondering if you could put your hands over your face and look at him subtly through a finger crack? Then you could see him looking right at you, but he would not be able to see you looking at him. It sounds a little silly, but it might be an intermediate step.

Originally Posted by sunrise

I'm wondering if you could put your hands over your face and look at him subtly through a finger crack? Then you could see him looking right at you, but he would not be able to see you looking at him. It sounds a little silly, but it might be an intermediate step.

There have been times in therapy when it's been REALLY hard for me to look at T...after a recent disclosure, I was terrified to look at him, and didn't for that session and the next session - not even a glance. He kept saying "I need you to look at me so you can know you're okay".

When I finally did look at him, I got what he meant. There was T, there I was, and I didn't have to hide, or not let him "see" me. He looked at me with acceptance and caring.

It took me quite a while in therapy to be able to hold T's gaze, and at times (like above) I lose the ability, but we work on it, and I learn to do it again.

There IS something very vulnerable about looking into someone's eyes - or rather, letting them look into mine. For me, in T, allowing that vulnerability and having the EXPERIENCE of not "dying", not being hurt, not being abandoned, was huge.

Like so many other things in T, I had to do it in baby steps, and I had to take a leap of faith. SUCH scary stuff...but sometimes the scariest stuff leads to the deepest healing.

to you

[Elana05]

Originally Posted by dinosaurs

cause its all like my identity so if i had a relationship then itd be like id ceased to exist and someone else was there. and if you cease to exist thats kinda like dying i guess.

For as long as I can remember the only time I was truly myself was when I was alone. If I was with other people, I would feel myself break up like a poor image on an old cathray tube television. At the same time, I wanted to meet someone and be in a relationship. Then I did. Then I went into a very deep depression. My partner just never understood when I kept saying, "I never feel like myself." I went to therapy to sort of work on being able to be whole while with other people. So I have been in therapy for 3 years now. But it has really helped. I'm starting to feel a bit better around people. Also Al-Anon has helped... just a few thoughts.

Elana

[dinosaurs]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Maybe looking at him is a first step to being engaged. If you do it, it is a start, and other steps may become clearer. I have felt this way with other things in therapy--not the looking at my T--but stuff like telling a certain memory or being angry. It is a very real and scary feeling to feel one will die, and one naturally pulls back. I think your T sounds wise and caring. Maybe you can continue to build trust and take small steps. Is it the looking at him that is scary (you seeing him) or is it that he will look see you if you do it? I'm wondering if you could put your hands over your face and look at him subtly through a finger crack? Then you could see him looking right at you, but he would not be able to see you looking at him. It sounds a little silly, but it might be an intermediate step.

yeah he is pretty wise and caring. heh he's an awesome t (except at the times i think he's a doufus ). it's the him seeing me that i can't stand. we have tried different kinds of mini steps but not the finger crack one. would need to think about that thanks for the idea.

[dinosaurs]

Originally Posted by treehouse

When I finally did look at him, I got what he meant. There was T, there I was, and I didn't have to hide, or not let him "see" me. He looked at me with acceptance and caring.

There IS something very vulnerable about looking into someone's eyes - or rather, letting them look into mine. For me, in T, allowing that vulnerability and having the EXPERIENCE of not "dying", not being hurt, not being abandoned, was huge.

its funny cause when i think of what is the very worst that could happen if we looked at each other, i always come back to seeing him smile at me and i end up fully losing it and becoming very violent towards him. which sounds like a dad related thing (he is a violent person). will need to think about that some more.

and yeah experiencing the vulnerability of things in t is huge.

[dinosaurs]

Originally Posted by Elana05

For as long as I can remember the only time I was truly myself was when I was alone. If I was with other people, I would feel myself break up like a poor image on an old cathray tube television. At the same time, I wanted to meet someone and be in a relationship. Then I did. Then I went into a very deep depression. My partner just never understood when I kept saying, "I never feel like myself." I went to therapy to sort of work on being able to be whole while with other people. So I have been in therapy for 3 years now. But it has really helped. I'm starting to feel a bit better around people. Also Al-Anon has helped... just a few thoughts.

Elana

yeah the push pull of staying alone/reaching out to others is a constant tidal struggle.

[dinosaurs]

Wooo Hooo!!!!!
It only took close to 7 years but took major steps forward yesterday. Doing snoopy happy dance in my head since then not full on looking at him properly yet but took major steps forward with that and with letting the real me connect to him. Just major and want to just grab him and squeeze in happiness almost all we've been working on for over a year now is just looking at him and now its like these things in my head unlocked and have allowed it and it's amazing when that happens got to remember to make a page in the comfort book reminding us of the unlocking things in case we need them again. did i mention it is pure happiness

[SenatorPenguin8081]

Originally Posted by dinosaurs

yeah so ive been trying to look at t for like ages now and get nowhere with it and was gonna ditch him but that was like doing a runner. so its been kinda hard to go see him and talk to him and stuff. but i guess im doing that. and anyway he like said this stuff last time and it was like absolutely exactly 100% right and i kinda wanted to put it here but not really sure why. dont know what anyone could say about it. he says like im spose to email him more and stuff but i dont know. i dont really like talking to people. this is the stuff he said. he wrote it down so id remember it.

the problem you have is that you believe if "you" have any real relationship with another person you will "die". the reason you say/believe you can't get better is because you believe if you get better ie have a real relationship with people, you will "die". you avoid "death" by not engaging with people. you "get by" out in the world by only interacting with people through an outer shell and not letting them experience the real you. the reason we have been doing the looking exercise is because one of the ways you keep you "away" here is by not looking at me. its not important in the grand scheme of life that you look at ME its a vehicle for getting you to allow the real you in the room.

and i know hes right and stuff and i know the dying stuff is like cause its all like my identity so if i had a relationship then itd be like id ceased to exist and someone else was there. and if you cease to exist thats kinda like dying i guess. so i know everything he said is right but its like its just so huge and so much a part of me. i cant imagine it not being like that. i dont know what i feel. like some kind of awful and its like even thinking about this stuff will lead to "death" i just dont know how to be sit with that. sometimes i dream about just walking in there and being able to look at him and i get all determined to do that cause its just dumb to not look really. but it like never happens.

Sorta OCD-ish? So am I with some things.
The good news is that I don't think your going to die by having relationships with people. If that was true then I would have kicked the bucket a long time ago (I'm not Harry Potter, I have no magical powers) . I know what you mean about being scared to share stuff with a T who you don't really know if he understands you or can help you.

You know, sometimes I have a problem with eye contact with my T, and it really has nothing to do with my T but rather that I'm actually sort of a shy guy when it comes to emotions and expressing my own needs/feelings. I'm totally cool with them in someone else, but I have a double standard against myself that PC actually helps me break out of I think that's normal and I just work on it a little at a time. My T is accepting of it but challenges me on it in his own way too, just like yours does. He's trying to break you out of your shell. That's a good thing as long as you have trust between each other or can work on that trust.

Weird... before your post today, I never thought of my T as conducting an "exercise" with me, but I can totally see how he has been doing that all along. Makes me wonder what other "clandestine" missions my T is undertaking on my behalf. Really both you and I should be lucky we have T's who care enough to engage us in this sort of work so that we can be more successful in the multi-facets of our lives. Difficult, as it may be...

[SenatorPenguin8081]

Originally Posted by dinosaurs

Wooo Hooo!!!!!
It only took close to 7 years but took major steps forward yesterday. Doing snoopy happy dance in my head since then not full on looking at him properly yet but took major steps forward with that and with letting the real me connect to him. Just major and want to just grab him and squeeze in happiness almost all we've been working on for over a year now is just looking at him and now its like these things in my head unlocked and have allowed it and it's amazing when that happens got to remember to make a page in the comfort book reminding us of the unlocking things in case we need them again. did i mention it is pure happiness

Kudos. I'm surprised that you can touch your T, but you don't want to look at him. I'd rather look at my T than touch him. There is hope for you yet young Skywalker...

[WikidPissah]

dinosaurs.....woo hoo!!!

well done!!

I don't do eye contact at all. I am painfully shy, always have been. There are very few people I look in the eyes...hubby, kids...um I think thats it! I do sideways glances and brief peeks. With T it's a constant stare at the floor. When I get back to T (had to take a very long break) I hope I can get to this very brave place too!

[bpd2]

I have the problem of not looking at my therapist still, after four years. Initially, I could hardly look at all, I mean not at all. Then, I progressed to looking at him when he opened the door to let me in at the beginning of the session. Sometimes I could look at him when I said goodbye. We let it be. It is very, very rarely that he will ask me to look at him--maybe twice in the last 8 or 10 months. There are several reasons I find it difficult, all of them emotional, of course: anger, fear, shame, guilt, and love. We are so vulnerable in therapy...that's often much of the point: that we let ourselves be vulnerable. Just telling someone what is happening for us is a huge step. I, myself, spend much of my emotional life not looking at what is what--as in, I allow myself to see it out of the corner of my eye, know it's there, and even that I am doing something to perpetuate it, or acting as I do because of it. So, letting that life be present in the room, is a huge step. I think I don't look at my therapist because I am testing all the time to see whether or not he is getting it right, and I am testing to see how he will react. If he can guess what is going on, or if I am brave enough to fully allow it (whatever it is at the time) to be said, then I want to know how he's taking it before I let him see not just my eyes, but even my face. Whew.....all that said, it's come down to this: it's okay. And it is okay: it is FAR, far, far more important that you show up for therapy than that you force a sign of engagement--which is what we call my looking at him. We are engaged by even making an appearance. The looking at another is a way to give them a sign that we are engaged---as in THEY need the sign, it helps them feel like we are in the room with them. WE know we are. So, maybe you could ask if there are other ways you could give him signs of engagement--like nodding, asking questions, repeating what he said to check that you are hearing what he said, not what you are afraid he said..........?

[alcira]

Originally Posted by bpd2

I think I don't look at my therapist because I am testing all the time to see whether or not he is getting it right, and I am testing to see how he will react.

Bpd2, I found this very interesting and so contrary to what I do. I am not sure I completely understand it. How can you know how he will react without looking at him? When I am saying something and want to know how T will react I must look at her face and eyes, they are most telling. On the other hand if I am talking about something that is very difficult to say and I am afraid of her reaction, I will look away.

i just cannot look at t, so i gauge his reactions to what he says only by his voice. seems to work most of the time.

[bpd2]

Originally Posted by alcira

Bpd2, I found this very interesting and so contrary to what I do. I am not sure I completely understand it. How can you know how he will react without looking at him? When I am saying something and want to know how T will react I must look at her face and eyes, they are most telling. On the other hand if I am talking about something that is very difficult to say and I am afraid of her reaction, I will look away.

I had to laugh when I read this because it made me realize that I require all kinds of signs of engagementn(nothing as straightforward as meeting another person's eyes1), and they're what I'm testing for: I can tell--out of the corner of my eye, of course! lol--whether or not he shifts in his chair; I can read the tone of his voice; I listen for what direction he takes with the conversation--or with his insights--or his next question....all clues to where he is. Then, as is my wont, I decide whether I'm going with him where he went, or whether I need something else, and I test the waters again...or wait and hope he'll try something else that will be closer to what I want.

I have trouble turning my face toward my therapist, for all the reasons you give above for why people do look at each other: I don't want them to read me like you want to read your therapist/others. My m.o. used to be to hide, using persona to get me through a situation, double-thinking all along the way--think of Duchamp's Nude Descending a Staircase: many different directions possible, narrowing to a choice which blossoms again into many different directions, narrowing, etc.....If I let someone see me and it doesn't go the way I want, I lose some control of the situation...A lot of times, catching all those tiny, tiny clues is like having a sixth sense about people: if I can do it, I assume they can, too--so I hide everything I can in an effort to control how exposed I might be to in such a vulnerable situation. I mainly listen for anger, scorn, kindness, watch for any impatient movements, any leaning forward or away, any stillness--that connotes close listening....probably more. And all those can be caught from the tiniest of indicators..........course, I'm wrong sometimes, and that's a bi.ch, but I don't know that it happens any more with my m.o. than if I'd looked face-to-face. It's really important to keep in mind that we're talking about in session. Out of session, I have a charming smile, eyes that crinkle when I smile, an earnest gaze, etc--that is, I have all the marks of an open person. But that's the point: they're "markers", not the real thing. In a way, it is more honest for me NOT to look at my therapist....if I do look at him, I am far, far more conscious of how I look to him than of how he looks to me.