Expressions of Affection & the "Clinical Response"

Hi Perna,

Thanks for helping me realize that it is a breakthrough. You're right, in the past, i would not have been able to be so open about my feelings for my t. In the early days, rather than express feelings of affection, whenever i would start feeling too close, I'd find something to be upset about or make an issue about. T always told me it was my way of getting distance again. I always thought I was angry about whatever the current problem or issue was. But now, i can see that I was too afraid to feel close to her. At least now, i can admit my feelings toward her. A huge step for me really.

About what you said regarding how we need to learn it is OK NOT to get what we want. . .I still have a really hard time accepting this. I don't feel like I want alot, and i rarely ever ask for things i want. But when i do get brave and ask for what i want, if i am refused, i feel immediately shamed. I feel very small and naked, and following on the heels of that is a sense of self-hate. I don't know why. I think maybe i get mad at myself for putting myself "out there" and getting up false hope about something that "I should have known i wouldn't get or don't deserve." I get mad at myself for putting my neck out on the chopping block and hoping for something other than WHACK!! So, in a sense, it feels like, by asking for what i want, I've put myself in danger and allowed myself to be hurt again.

To be denied feels like a stabbing in my heart. And once that fades, i become angry and my walls go up ever thicker, while a voice in my head says, "I'll die before i ever ask so-and-so for anything again." I don't know how others accept rejection without feeling hurt, naked, ashamed, and angry. I mean, when it's something that is near and dear to your heart, and it takes SO much courage to ask for in the first place.

I understand what you mean about t being a tool. But I also want to have a real relationship with my t. I can't just view her as a textbook. I've learned to really have affection for her and I feel attached. Hence, I don't want to just "practice relationships" with her, I want us to have a relationship. I'm not sure I even know "how" to see it in a different way. I've never felt the same about her as I do about my dentist, primary care doctor, etc. The t relationship has always felt special and intimate. Isn't there more to it than just consulting with a business professional? It just doesn't feel that way.

It's interesting that you realized you had replayed an experience with your husband that was actually more related to your stepmother. You must have alot of insight to have realized that. My t and I have often talked about situations where I react to her in a way that relates more to my parents than to her. But at the time it's happening, it always seems to be about my t. It's always in hindsight that i see the connection to past experiences.

I so get this. I feel the same way. Once I asked T if we could practice her saying 'no' to me. My idea was that I would begin by asking for ridiculous things like, "let's run away with the circus' or 'would you come to my house and cook for me everyday?" And then possibly I could learn to ask from her 'real' stuff and wouldn't be so devastated if she said no. But T wouldn't play that game with me. She wants me to instead grow within myself, yadda yadda yadda.

But now I'm thinking that she doesn't have to 'agree' to play. I can ask the questions anyways knowing I'll get the answer 'no'. My idea is to de-sensitize myself somehow.

I've also reacted by thinking "I'll die before I ask anything again." I even told T once with an intense energy that "I will never ever ever never ever ever never ever ask you again." It was a desperate energetic putting up the solid brick walls again.

I'd also like to hear from people how they manage the painful feelings of rejection by being told no.

Pretty clear this takes you right back to a childhood state, isn't it? In spite of what is actually happening today.

The only thing the t has told me no to is when I ask for explanations about therapy itself. It pisses me off, but I get the answers by going to other sources for the information. I can't figure out if she is unable or unwilling, but I would rather her be *****y than incompetent so I go with that.

I told my T I couldn't go forever without somebody liking me "first", and since my parents didn't do it, the job was his. I was too weird to get anybody from the outside to do it. I think that until you have that first EXTENDED experience of full acceptance (unconditional love or positive regard or whatever), you can't connect with someone else. I think we are not in the psychology books! We're quiet, we're smart, we're miserable - but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I had to teach my T who I was and what I needed. It's kind of the Justice Clarence Brown effect? HE got help getting where he is, but he doesn't believe anybody else should have it? What is your T afraid of? What does it say about her that she denies you warmth? This is NOT the current trend in therapy. I'm not saying T is wrong for not embracing a trend, but my T says they are rethinking things - maybe your T needs to catch up? IDK. I wanted to add: my small naked feelings have pretty much dissipated. brought them to therapy, brought up topics, questions to T that elicited them, talked them out - he is so kind. Also, PC helps - sometimes they are your questions that magically turn into mine! We're getting there...

I just wanted to chime in that I struggle a lot with the T relationship and the wanting it to be 'more'. My T has told me that she will be 'here' as long as I need her, so I'm hoping that means that eventually this feeling of wanting to be 'more' will fade.
Peaches I also understand what you mean when you say that you don't regard her in the same way as your dentist or gp. I have said that many, many times to my T. And her response has always been 'Well, I certainly hope not, this is relationship is more than those'.
I actually sent her a text a little while ago asking her I'll get to a point where I look at just as a 'therapist'? I know some will say, and maybe they're right, that it's the transference talking, but it doesn't stop the imbalanced feelings.

Good luck

I think it would be good to talk to your T about this ^ especially right when it happens. So when your T didn't give you the response you hoped for, share with her at that moment how her response affected you. This is how you are going to work through this issue.

My version of dealing with rejection has included a sense of entitlement, which goes something like "it was really hard for me to ask for this, it is really important to me that this person give me the reaction or answer I am looking for, I hardly ever ask for anything, and I have done my job/been a good person/asked in the right way or otherwise deserve this." These were all my reasons why I should have been accepted (or gotten my needs met or gotten the reaction I wanted) rather than rejected.

The problem with this kind of thinking, which may or may not be similar to yours, is it presumes that life is not only a meritocracy but that other people are always in a position to be able to hear you and not reject you. More gradually I have come to understand that most people's responses to me (including my T, although it fortunately happens much less often there) have little to do with me-- in the quality of my asking, in what they believe about the worthiness of giving acceptance to me or even how much they don't want to reject me. Instead, their reactions to me have mostly to do with their own resources to give, with their ability to really hear what I am asking for (even if I think I've been clear about it, it seems that I'm never as clear as I think I am). What this shifted in me is that my sense of self is not nearly as tied to people's responses/rejection of me as it used to be, and that makes it easier to cope with rejection. And if I don't construe their reactions to me as information about me, then I don't feel as angry, upset, cheated, heartbroken, etc. Instead, I feel more resilient and I have some distance from it-- such as when I woke up with a bad nightmare and wanted my H to comfort me, which he didn't do in the "right" way. I could interpret his reaction to me (rather than as "he doesn't care about me and how I suffer") to "H seems really distracted right now and anxious to leave and get started working. I feel some sadness that I can't be there for me, but I appreciate that he at least made some effort." If not getting the reaction I want is understood as a function of the other person not be able to provide it, for whatever reason, then it just doesn't cause me to fall into that trap where I have gone before.

The other thing that has helped me in dealing with rejection or not getting the reaction that I want is to see the logic in continuing to ask, whether I try to find another way to get my immediate needs met or try to encourage myself for future requests, is to honor the attempt to reach out. This is Perna's point, of course, so I won't belabor that. And part of that for me is to realize that not speaking out, whether it's putting my feelings out there or asking to get my needs met, is NEVER going to result in them being met. Like, if I don't apply for that job, I'm certainly not going to get it. I may be rejected as an applicant, but I'm infinitely better off applying than not applying. Not applying guarantees I won't get the job.

Anne

These are such wise words - thank you!! I'm going to need to read this more than once to fully process it. The words I bolded here are especially important to me. Wonderful insights! This really hit home with me.

what she said! really like the best thing ever written on PC ever. thanks, anne

You missed the joke! You asked for something and she said no! And apparently you survived.

Oh my goodness - you're right!!! I guess she said no in such a subtle way I just didn't notice. This is hilarious. Well, I don't claim the title of the dumbest client ever without good reason. The evidence has spoken.

This is SO something I would have done!! Glad I'm not the only one, and glad you can laugh about it!

Hi Pachy,

Yes. Sometimes my t does make mistakes in how she responds to me. Not on purpose, but I think because either (1) I am not clear on what I'm asking for, or (2) she is perceiving that I'm needing something different from what I am actually needing from her. Also, she has been ubrupt with me when she has been extra busy at work, so has resorted to a more formal/chopped reply in emails, which to me felt like a brushoff, but that she says didn't have anything to do with me personally. Thankfully, my t is usually very kind and considerate! But that's why it really throws me off when i get a response that feels bland/unfeeling/overly stiff. What troubles me the most is that those atypical responses from her seem to always follow right on the heels of me disclosing strong attachment feelings for her. I just wonder why. . .

In the old days of therapy, she used to apologize when she'd said or done something that hurt me. Nowadays, she's not so quick to apologize but, rather, to try to repair the rupture by talking over how i felt about what happened. That's good, except it never really clarifies for me which one of us was wrong -- was she insensitive/withholding, or was i wrong to expect/hope for a certain reaction?

I tend not to ask outright for something if I'm afraid of not getting the response I want. But I may "hint" or express something and hope for a particular reaction that doesn't come. I mean, after all, I'm not just going to come out and say, "I love you, but I'm afraid that I don't mean much to you. Do you genuinely like/care about me?" So instead, i may tell her how much she means to me, and that she will at least answer in a way that validates that our relationship means something more to her than me just being a number.

Hi Sally,

Yeah. . . who is responsible for the "angst" of therapy? T's or us? Or maybe it's our wrong expectations + their, at times, thoughtless responses.

Hi Granite,

Thanks for the support. My t and I never did talk about this, because i told her in an email that although it hurt me, i was going to overlook it and just try to forget it since she's done that for me many times. Thankfully, at our next session (which was right before she left for Panama for 2 weeks), even though she didn't bring up what happened, I could tell she was trying hard to help me prepare for her being away, by reminding me of our connection, etc. She said some really nice things, like reminding me that even though she comes and goes, it is not like how it was for me growing up because she always tells me where she is going, and when, and also when she will be back. She said, "I will be coming and going, but I will always come back. And then we'll be together again." That kinda warmed my heart.

I'm beginning to see that what hurts most from T is what I most need to work on.

Example: "The group facilitator can't give you special treatment because there are just too many babies."

This hurt me because "baby" is a huge insult. How can T, whom I have loved and trusted for years, stoop to such a low blow?

But in thinking that, I've jumped over the real issue: why is "baby" such an insult for me? What do I have against being a baby? That's what we are working on now.

Did you ask her who was "wrong"? Maybe no one was wrong?

Wow, I have exactly the same expereince. I hate people who think they are "entitled" to things but that's the way I feel. I feel like I hold back asking for anything, and to finally ask for something I should be entitled to it. And when I don't get, the shame, self-hatred and the whole "mad at God" thing comes rolling over me full force.

Transference sucks!

Oh indeed it do!!!!!And I thought therapy was hard before transference kicked in .....

I learned to pay attention to my focus. If you want a hug, what do you want? A hug. If you ask for a hug and do not get a hug, what do you want? A hug! But instead, we suddenly shift to concentrating on what we do not have, did not get and the ramifications of not getting something we want, etc. instead of staying focused on the hug and why we want the hug (one could want a hug just for the "heck" of it and that should not cause problems if we do not get that kind? But usually we want a hug because we are sad or unhappy about something else? Concentrating on that "root" need can also help with not getting the hug; maybe T or whoever is not able to give us the hug but might be willing to listen and help us better understand the root problem! That's much better than a hug, more lasting.).

Keeping things as solid as possible helps me too; I can see and imagine a hug or a particular conversation but I cannot see what is not there (loss or nothing, not getting) So, if I do not get the solid item, the hug or desired words, conversation or action, I have to move forward in time; I now am disappointed! To move forward, we have to let go of the feeling about the thing we did not get, the wanting feeling, and move on to the less scary but more uncomfortable, didn't get or disappointed feeling. Think about it; if you get the hug, you feel good, right? You automatically move forward. But if you don't get something you wanted the "next" feeling is not pleasant so we try to shirk it and hold on to the, "But-I-want. . ." feeling. We stay suspended in a bad feedback loop (want/don't get, don't get/don't deserve, don't deserve/don't want, don't want, but I do!) instead of moving forward into working with the disappointment.

Disappointment is initially. . . wait for it, disappointing or unpleasant feeling but working with any emotion we feel in the moment can be very rewarding and, ultimately, make us feel better. Being disappointed in my husband and discussing it with him gave me understanding and got me "right" with my husband and my relationship and made us closer. I did not have to be disappointed anymore because my initial disappointment turned out, learned through discussion, to be misplaced, so I could shift and move on. I learned my husband wasn't doing the chore he was responsible for because he did not feel well, could not do it without pain and learning that he was in pain reawakened my love for him and desire for him not to be in pain! There was literally no place for disappointment in my feelings then.

Could you please elaborate on this?

Cos I would have written, "Transference helps".

Perhaps there is a difference between positive transference and negative?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but .....
Transference involves feeling emotions toward your T that are not caused by your T but come from someplace/somewhere else. I was much more comfortable with T when I was talking about my emotions toward other people. I'm finding it incredibly difficult and confusing to deal with this. My head says transference can be a great tool, but my heart says .... it sucks!!!