On Needs, Needing Things, And Not Wanting to Admit It

I have had very similar thoughts. I hate to be needy... it makes me more vulnerable. If I don't need anyone, then they can't hurt me. If they help me, then I feel like I must return the favor two times over, because I don't want to owe anyone anything..... so in a way I think I understand where you are coming from...

The fact is we all need to be needed and we all need to be cared for, but for us to be needy means we are vulnerable to be hurt.. and that is something that for many of us, including myself, is just to hard to bare at times.... take it in baby steps.... don't look at it as needy, as much as allowing someone one to get their need met by helping you out. That is how I have to look at it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I understand what you are saying... being needy and allowing someone to meet that need makes me feel very vulnerable

[QUOTE=eskielover;3968340]I'm not talking about a romantic relationship. I'm talking about friendships, and other close emotional relationships. I don't ever want to live 100% alone like you are describing.

Exactly. It's terrifying how vulnerable it makes me. I feel overwhelming panic and fear when I absolutely have to ask for help. I feel like I just know I'm going to be rejected. Or they will help, but then rub it in my face.

I would say that it is progress to speak here. It does not automatically put you where you want to be, but it is progress. You are able to speak in this setting, even in the face of the emotions you describe.

It sounds like you want to hit the nail exactly on the head. Here is an alternative model or vision:

I don't know what I need, what to ask for, or how to ask. But I can post something that is in the ballpark. People will respond, and their responses can help me figure out what to say next. Talking to people, over time, can help me figure out what I need. And: talking with others--revealing myself, receiving help--can, in itself, help me move toward whatever it is that I need.

What is your reaction to this alternative?

Stop making so much f***ing sense

It's just the actual act of doing so is hard, and makes me feel like I'm wasting people's time.

This sort of reminds me of a conversation with my T from a few months ago. He was telling me that I shouldn't hide all the time, that I can be 'out there' with everyone else. I told him that that place was for normal people, not freaks, and when I let myself be seen there I'm told to shut up and get back in my corner.
So yeah, I get it, but I have no idea how to change the pattern...

I agree, and that's one reason why I admire what you do here in starting threads and speaking about yourself. You can speak even when it is so hard to do so.

You know the principle Act opposite in DBT?

Opposite Action

It isn't easy to speak when you feel like you are wasting people's time. Just remember that feelings are not facts: you feel that you are wasting people's time, but that does not mean that you are wasting people's time. I'm glad that you move forward anyways, even in the face of these difficult feelings.

And let's look at the evidence. Your threads consistently get hundreds of views and many responses. How likely would that be if people perceived you to be wasting their time?

Unfortunately, I have to get to sleep, so good night! I have enjoyed posting with you tonight. Hang in there!

Well, I think it's just like you said. If you let someone know what you need you are taking a risk, they may or may not give it to you. But I think you need to take that risk. For one, people want to feel needed, they need to even . Really needing something and being evasive about trying to get it is much worse than being direct and giving the other person a chance to give you what you need and feel good about themselves. Plus if you don't ask you often won't receive, people in general are all very self-focused so keep in mind that almost no one is going around guessing at what you need from them... but that doesn't mean that people don't want to help!

In therapy it has been very embarrassing for me to admit how much I need my therapist and how much he means to me. I don't know why it is... because I'm sure from his point of view it's good if anything to hear someone cares so much. It would be worse if I needed him but kept it hidden and went about trying to get what I want in evasive ways, and then was angry or passive aggressive when I didn't get it. Maybe you can start small by asking for something and see what happens. I'm not saying you'll always get it, but you might be surprised how much people do follow through for you. I think most people are generally good natured and want to help out when they know how to, so long as whatever you need isn't too crazy an ask. Good luck!

I really relate to what you say. There's one saying that helps me. I'm really fearful of rejection and showing neediness, or being burdensome too, so I find it hard to ask for anything because I'd feel too ashamed. And if the person said 'no' it would make me feel even more ashamed - like it was proof that I was wrong to ask in the first place. But I try and remind myself that 'Just because the person said no, doesn't mean you shouldn't have asked.' I think that was from some DBT assertiveness skills handout my T gave me. It's helping me a bit with that stuff.

I relate with you a lot. Needs, that's the reason that brought me into therapy. I didn't even need to eat and when it happened I felt guilty and I would made myself sick especially if ti was something particularly good. That's why I will never "call should I need anything" and why it is a big deal to accept extra care and I pester you all on here when it happens. Even in therapy as you maybe noticed, "others" have to reach out to me, speak for me, read my mind to figure out what I need. It must be difficult...

Letting others know what you need means to let them actually see you and if you are used not to show that part of you it will feel awkward and risky as you have always thought that you can't have needs or be "weaker", otherwise it will be more than people can handle and they will go away while you have revealed the most intimate part of you. I always feel left without defenses and betrayed. No close friends either.
I guess it is a way to protect ourselves from getting hurt (again?).

About asking for advice here, I'd say that posting here gives you the chance to put your needs on the table or try to do it - sometimes it's a bit easier if you write - and since the thread itself doesn't force people to read and answer, those who do are not bothered by your need for advice and are definitely not thinking "this girl demands too much!" as it was their choice to take the time to do it. I know, it's not like doing it with people face to face, but I'd say it is a nice exercise to start with, and it could be sloooowly applied to real life. It takes time indeed.
Uhm, don't know if this made any sense?

One of the things my T has been trying very hard to get me to try is to fulfill my own needs first, before we delve into me letting others fulfill needs for me. I feel selfish fulfilling my own needs as much as I feel vulnerable when I let others help fulfill my needs.

I recently went out and got braces (mind you I am 49 years old). This has been something I wanted my whole life, I have terrible crooked teeth and never wanted to smile and covered my mouth all the time. It was very easy for me to get all my kids braces, but when it came to meet my need to get them, I felt so selfish. My last child moved out a year ago and after my accident (what got me back into therapy) I finally got braces last month. I still feel selfish about them, but for some reason, as awkward and clumsy as they make me feel... meeting one of my own needs has been therapeutic.. Maybe start by meeting your own need first? My therapist does trauma focused CBT and I was having a really tough time trusting her or making any progress at all. I fought her on everything, and to trust her has taken me a year to get to that point...(that needy thing getting in the way again). So she asked me to work on a workbook called "Healing the Trauma of Abuse" a women's workbook A gentle, Step-by-step-guide. I was able to do the first few chapters by myself and when I struggle with one she and I talk about it in therapy. One of the first things it suggests doing is something small for yourself. The first thing I did was find a special spot outside and make a promise to myself to sit on my swing outside and drink my coffee in the morning for 10 minutes and think of nothing. I practiced mindfulness, and looked at the birds, the trees the sun, and every time my mind started racing or wandering I gently brought it back to the tree's the birds, etc.... slowly, but surely I can almost sit there for 10 minutes and enjoy life (which is really a big thing for me). Since then I even got a manicure, a few weeks later got my hair cut and highlighted. Each time I felt just a little better about myself, and it left me not needing anyone but actually helped fulfill a need.... now I have braces...(now I just feel like an awkward teenager..grin)

Now the big thing is to start letting my T help me more with my book, I am having a hard time with that. It is easier to talk about her or anyone else than my own needs, but I am slowly making progress.

Hang in there, take baby steps, find a small need and try and meet it on your own. I have found practicing mindfulness one of the best things I have ever started doing in my life. It is not easy and struggle with it, and the most I can do it is about 10 minutes a day, but it really helps... just a suggestion

I guess what I am trying to say, is take baby steps find a way to meet small needs of your own

I know what you mean, like I don't fit in or act like everyone else, like something is wrong with me.

I know...I just can't do this IRL. It's okay here, but not there.

That's another thing: I can't admit that anyone is important to me or matters to me. Which is crazy because almost everyone enjoys being told they're important to someone, but I always feel like I am sharing too much and that people are uncomfortable if I tell them they're important to me, even if they've said the exact same thing to me. I can't tell people I love them, I can't tell people they matter to me or that I appreciate them, I can't tell people that I value them, or that they have impacted my life. I am so cold to people, even when I want to be warmer and I know I "should" be. I feel like a lot of people eventually give up because I don't show warmth.

I really understand what you mean. And it is a million times harder if someone rejects me. I can't handle it and I end up completely running away from whoever it is because they obviously hate me and don't want anything to do with me. For example, last week, I asked someone if I could take some time soon to talk to them about some difficult things going on in my life. This is someone I trust quite a bit and go to a lot for help. She said she would get in touch with me once she knew something about her schedule, but it's been a week and she has t said anything. So I feel like I shouldn't have asked and like she doesn't want to see me or talk to me. I will be seeing her today because we both go to the same church, but I probably won't approach her or talk to her. I will avoid her and make sure I don't bump into her. I feel like I am bad for asking and like I asked for too much, and I shouldn't be so selfish or self-focused to demand people's time like that.

Yes. It does. And I agree. It is a good chance to practice before taking it out into the real world.

I think one of my problems is that I try to fulfill too many of my own needs, and if I can't fulfill them, I ignore them. So my needs for companionship, connection, love, and understanding all go unmet because I can't meet them myself.

I consider there to be a bigger distance between wants and needs. I can take care of my own needs barring extremely unusual circumstances like being in a coma. I don't find it selfish to do so, I just don't see what the point of involving others would be. With wants, sometimes other people could be not unuseful even if not an actual requirement. So if I want to be not lonely, I call a friend and we go biking or something. The therapist has said it appears I don't ask for help, but I just do not see that I require help very often. I would seek assistance if it was required. But if not required, why would I choose to muck things up by adding in more people?

Stopdog
To me a want is different than a need. I may w ant a new car but I dont need one and I can certainly buy my own.... but I may need someone to drive me home from a dental procedure because I choose conscious sedation (because I have terrible anxiety attacks at the dentist but I need to keep my teeth healthy) I cant take a taxi home because I live in the country. ... well that is a need not a want. It took me a week to ask my husband to drive me and I felt terribly guilty impossing on him. So I guess that is the best way for me to exain the differences between a want and a need. You would think a wife asking a husband something like that would be easy. For me it took a lot

I'm glad you're asking for similar experiences specifically, because otherwise I'd feel guilty about only talking about myself and not being able to help you.

I don't view what others call "my needs" or "my limits" (they basically come down to the same) as "needed" or "a limit".
For example I have a disorder in my hand and someone told me to mow the lawn. I did so, and it hurt. When that person commented on how well I'd done it, I said it really hurt. He said "So you can't mow the lawn again." Of course I can mow the lawn! It just hurts.
If I need ten bucks for food and my friend is spending his last ten bucks on weed or on cinema tickets to take his girlfriend, what right do I have to ask him to loan me his money and limit himselves?
Why would people want to help me? Even more, what right do I have to ask for help or even say "I need this" when I can clearly survive without it (even if it makes me unhappy) or "I can't do this" when I clearly can, it just hurts a lot?

I have this problem too at school when classmates go home because they have a headache or something. I always stay at school unless I'm bothering my classmates with being ill (fainting or something is rather distracting), vomiting, or have a fever. Yeah, my head hurts, and being at school makes it worse, but I can be at school so what right do I have to go home? Or say "I can't" when I can? What right do I have to say "I need" because there is no reason for the other to care that I 'need' (I prefer 'desire' or 'could use' because most of the time you don't really need so-called needs). I have no right to ask him to do something to me, give me his time or attention, thus there is no reason for him to do so, so I don't.

But you don't strictly need that car drive, do you? You can wait in the car or on a park bench outside the dentist's office until the anesthesia wears off. It would just be terribly inconvenient. I'd consider it a want, because you don't want to go through all the trouble.

I'm glad you're in a position to consider inconvenience a reason to ask for help, though.

Stopdog. See thats the issue. You are telling MY need is not a need. And yes unless I had a ride and anothet person to sign the release the dentist refused to do the procecure... so with your logic. Then I reslly didnt need my teeth fixed... the fact is I had a perceived need. Its comments loke what uou just said that make people afraidcto ask othets to help get theit needs met.. just because you petceive it as not a need does not meen it was not a real need for me or the struggle that I went through in myself before I could get the courage to ask someone else to help feel the beed I had

You can think you dont have any needs you cant take care of yourself but that is just a form of denial and a way to protct from being vulnerable to even adnit you have a need

It takes a lot of courage to even admit you have a need let alo e re as lizw thT we may have to depend on domeone else to meet a need. For instance it took me teo years to even go to the dentist because that meant I needed someone to take care of my teeth. We need doctors etc. Whether you want to admit it or not. And needs when met by othets leave us feeling very vulnerable

Yeah, I'm similar. Needs are weaknesses. Telling people where I'm weak feels like setting myself up to get hurt. Like painting a target on my forehead. As a result I come across cold and uninterested, and I don't get what I need, end up feeling like nobody cares.

Problem is I can't shake the basic belief.

Can you explain how it evolved over time? I think I'm trying to avoid attachment and wonder how it will be if I accept it.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but maybe it is helpful to talk about the role of attachment in all of this. First the basics. We all have attachment styles. All. It is universal (meaning cross-cultural). There are secure and insecure styles that are formed with early caregivers. Insecure types (there are 4 of them) are quite common; you don't have to have severe abuse or neglect to have an insecure attachment style.

With avoid ant remember though it sounds as though there is no "need" avoid ant attachment is still an attachment. Get it? When they do a little experiment with avoid ant kids, the kids appear on the outside to not be distressed and not seek out comfort or need anyone, but sensors show that they are in fact quite distressed. So one important step is to recognize and accept that no matter what your outside behavior is like (rejecting needs) or your internal story (I don't have needs), there is still distress that you are denying. It is human to be interdependent, not weakness. We can't be entirely self-sufficient; that is a myth. We are social primates who need to balance cooperative joining with independent action. Infants are born hard-wired for relatedness, which is now considered a primary if not the primary drive.

Allowing that ability to develop a relationship with my therapist, who unlike others, is bound by his profession to not abandon, demand, or harm me, made it safe for me to explore and even test this. At first I felt reluctant and bad about reaching out. Then I swung the other way and was too demanding. In many ways, I was like a very young child still trying to figure out how to express distress and get the right level of response. Once I made progress on that, everything calmed down. I found that I could internalize some of the relationship so that I could soothe myself and take care of my needs with newly developed skills about truly being able to be there for myself. The next step was to try this outside of the safety of the therapeutic relationship and see what happened. My attachment style by then was more or less secure so I was handling relationships differently anyway. There were difficulties since people are more reactive and do not restrain themselves in the way that therapists do, but I was more able to tolerate this and willing to work with it to connect. And I was more able to step away if my needs were not being met. The shift in attachment has shifted my whole life. It isn't only attachment but it is largely attachment.

Well, this convo got a little off track...

I think that "needs" can also be "wants", or things like "in order to make this easier on myself, I could ask for help". My problem is that it feels wrong to ask, when in reality it shouldn't. I should be able to consider asking for help and actually asking for help without fear or pain, whether it's a want or a need. I can't consider it without a level of discomfort in asking and a feeling of rejection if I'm refused. Therefore, something is wrong inside me causing me to react in this way.

And I do believe a lot of it ties into attachment, as archipelago has pointed out.

Apparently our attachment needs/system goes into effect faster and before the fight or flight response keyed to fear and/or anxiety. They are connected.

Apparently? I would think its the opposite. Someone said here attachment is human, being social. Freeze, flight or fight response would be more animal, more instinctual. But definitely attachment issues happen pre-verbally, and that is a problem.

Eta - and where hazel says she "should" feel more comfortable asking, otherwise there is something wrong with her - in a sense that is true; you "should" have been raised by a good enough mother who didnt leave you alone and screaming for hours. But you werent, so how you feel now DOES match how you were raised, to feel fear about asking for help.

So weird about the dentist - i had that exact thing happen to me as a kid. The dentist wouldnt let me walk home after a tooth pulling, even tho my mother had made my gf accompany me. I told the receptionist, i aint calling my mom, shes gonna yell. I still remember the receptionist saying, well im not scared of your mom! Then my mother yelled at me for telling the dentist she didnt want to pick me up. Mixed messages.

Attachment needs are about safety and survival. Animals probably have them too. Humans are only different in the sense that a human infant is far more helpless at birth than many other animals.

Then again youre probably right. Godzilla could come in the room and would a baby scream? Not if he had her bottle.