I think quitting is the only thing that makes sense

I know, I know. I feel like I say this every other week.

I'm just back to thinking... why am I torturing myself with therapy? Just before starting therapy, things were going *better* for me. I had found a way to eat fairly healthfully, I was losing weight easily, exercising, and feeling good.

Things got rough after a few months (stress, work, mom) and I felt like I was in a good place to try therapy again to deal with unresolved childhood stuff.

Now that I'm back in T, I'm worse off. This seems to be what happened before, when I tried therapy. I get worse. I cry more. I am more isolated. I have no energy to do anything, and nothing seems to be worth doing. I basically stayed in the same T-shirt for most of the week, and didn't bother showering - nearly the entire week. I was in bed today until noon, it's almost 3 now, I haven't done anything at all. The whole weekend is slipping by, and there's really nothing I want to do - but I don't want to go back to work tomorrow either. I'm struggling more with SI-issues, which only seem to pop up when I'm in therapy.

I was hoping this time would be better. I was hoping that b/c I was in a better, more stable place when I started, and because I found a very stable T, and because I'm older, and because I tried to tell my T all the important issues rather than not tell him what I'm avoiding talking about... so at least he'll know what we're dealing with... I was hoping it would be better, but it's not better.

I'm sad. My life was OK before T, in that I was surviving and was not miserable, but it wasn't really *great*. I was hoping I could get through the awfulness of therapy and find *great* on the other side, but now I'm thinking - I can't. Therapy seems like one big ocean of awfulness with no hope of ever emerging, no hope of something better on the other side.

I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, why I can't seem to make therapy work the way it's supposed to???

Sorry... just needed to get my freaking out thoughts out of my head and shared a little bit.

I do feel your pain in some respects. In some ways I have grown because of therapy. But in others, I feel like I'm worse than I was before. I guess I need to try to focus on the growth I've made, and not on the negative stuff.

I'm sorry that it hurts so much. I felt something similar in the sense that just when I thought things were cleared up, boom! I experience an upsurge of really old crud that then reactivates almost every single trauma that I thought I had already worked through! OUCH! Not only was I miserable and suffering, but I felt betrayed by therapy itself. Like how could I put in all this time and effort and it backfire?!!

Thing is, sometimes things like this happen because you are more ready to take in all the real stuff that somehow you have managed to dodge most of the time. It is actually a sign of progress though it feels awful and not like that at all. And it is hard to believe anyone who says anything good about it.

My therapist was honest and said, this work we are doing now is like having surgery without anathesia. He suggested that it was happening because I was in fact stronger and that even if I didn't believe it, I was strong enough to get through it. He likened himself to a midwife whose job it is to be there when the person in labor really thinks they are not going to make it and can't tolerate it. But they do make it through. And actually there is a great amount of relief and even joy afterwards.

It isn't just therapy that does this. Zen teachers say the same type of thing, that being awake means being awake to everything and some of that is pure crud. So no promises of pure bliss.

I can identify with some of what you write. I had nine months of therapy (stopped about a month ago) and by the end of it was sobbing most days ( before therapy I only cried rarely, usually when watching sad films etc), and my motivation in life was diminished. I usually do a huge amount of stuff every day, but I found time slipped and I seemed to procrastinate and spend some time doing nothing. I'm feeling better now I have stopped, but I'm compelled to try again as there were good things about the therapy too and I think that if I'd had a T who was amenable to adapting the way we worked together I would have felt different. Do you have faith in this T? Does it feel right?

Thanks...

MusingLizzy - thanks. That's great that you've had some growth to focus on! I would think that (might? maybe?) help? I feel like I've got nothing to show for it, and not just with this therapist. I haven't really gotten anything out of past therapy either... I keep hoping... but I can't seem to figure out what to do to make it useful. It's like someone gave me a bunch of seeds, but no directions... and nobody ever showed me how to plant and water them. So, I've tried sticking them in a box, trying putting them on a display, in a frame, tried eating a couple... but can't figure out how to turn them into nourishment! (Ha! There's a metaphor for you!)

What makes it more frustrating is I *have* had really good friends who really understood me, and who I felt better talking to them. We clicked. I can't seem to click with therapists. I don't know why.

Thanks Archipelago - Oh, I really loved your metaphor about surgery without anesthesia! That works. That all makes sense... but how do you know, when you're in the middle of it, that it's the right path? How do you know that you're getting closer to "better", and it's not just some scalpel-wielding maniac poking at you to see what's inside? How do you know that the therapy of today isn't going to be looked at like blood-letting from thousands of years ago? (Sorry for the ick factor! Describes about how I'm feeling this second!)

Brown Owl - YES! Exactly! You're describing it perfectly. Shouldn't therapy be helping me feel more competent and better at my life, or at the very least, a tiny bit hopeful that I can change things that aren't working? It's not. I'm feeling more hopeless and less like doing anything. That makes sense about finding the right T, but I've tried soooo many. I feel like I'm running out of local Ts. And there aren't many that give me a good feeling when I look at them online. And, I like this one - I like that he's done tons of his own therapy, and is hopefully not rattled by my craziness (an old T thought that I hated him, since I wasn't able to talk about stuff - it became a very weird, difficult, not helpful situation). I like that he has an air of "solidness". But, I don't know if I have confidence that he knows how to help me. He seems to not understand things a lot. It feels like after 9 months, he's still not sure what to do with me . I've done my best to give him all the information! But I don't know what else to tell him... surely I can't be THAT much of an enigma!?!?

Thanks... I appreciate all the thoughts.... really. I know I'm probably not going to quit, but I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I tend to stay in bad situations way too long, thinking that maybe it's me, or that it will get better, or giving people the benefit of the doubt. I can't figure out how to tell if this is something I need to get out of, or stick with. I will say, he's obviously trying. He doesn't get upset or take it personally when I tell him stuff he does bothers me (not yet anyway) and has been pretty accommodating about changing what he can to make me more comfortable. I really do think he's *trying*. Which makes me think that it's me, I'm the problem here

Maybe I missed it... what are you wanting to focus on with therapy? I know for me, I'm just trying to survive my depression and so I find benefit in my sessions.

Hi NowhereUSA... I don't even know anymore. I want to have a better life. I want a better sense of self. I want to not freeze up in scary situations. I want less stress. I want more effective ways to deal with my crazy family. I'd like to date, eventually, and be able to be in a good relationship (I haven't dated since college, don't have any clue how to do it as an adult - freaks me out). I'd like to deal with the stupid trauma stuff that's stuffed in the back of my head, so that it doesn't leak out and freak me out. I'd like to not feel like I need to grab a knife and the phone when someone knocks on my front door.

I'd like to be happy, actual real happy, not just "meh, I've got a job and a house, so I must be OK... " and not feel like I'm just counting down the years until I die, since there's not anything worth doing anyway.

I don't know. It all feels fuzzy and inarticulate, but maybe that explains some of it?

What method of therapy have you used/are you using? Maybe a more skills-based approach would be helpful?

Of course it depends...I was specifically focused on trauma work though a range of other issues were also involved. While it was going on I had no idea that it was the "right thing" and it felt as though it was never going to end. It also was completely absorbing and exhausting.

Some signs though did occur that told me to stick with it. I noticed right away that I was able to stay with difficult things and not do all I could to avoid and numb out. That I had more of a tendency to do simple but nice things for myself. Eventually I found myself developing a sense that I was befriending myself, acting as a best friend would act, keeping myself company, and my therapist was a sort of representation or place holder for that capacity.

I found that it was not necessary to go over every issue or bad experience. That just focusing on doing work on one thing at a time tended to have healing effects on things that I wasn't going over.

And then I just felt a broadened capacity to feel all sorts of things and accept that, good, bad, or neutral.

That was my trajectory. And then I felt a sense of transformation and much more ability to take on things. I expanded my world, started trying new things, adopted much healthier ways of living. Now I enjoy things that used to feel either beyond my reach or like chores. Am I always happy? No. There is a lot to be sad about, but I've attained more peace about it.

I think it's okay to take breaks along the way.

Hopefully you have a therapist who's willing to allow that.

Mine is, and for that I'm most grateful and thankful.

I could have written this today guilloche. Wish I knew what the answer was. Soup

I just wanted you to know I could've written this. Can't answer any questions, but I know how bad it is to feel like you're unable to somehow access the thing that's supposed to help. (I don't think this is your fault, by any means!)

The way I'm handling it at the moment is to try and seek a second opinion, maybe changing therapists. This is after months (maybe a little over a year if I'm honest) of definitely going farther and father into a swamp of confusion and nearly intolerable emotion, going back to maladaptive coping skills I had left behind *before* I entered therapy. I took some breaks in there and they were hard, too.

All in all, it is hard because...dealing with these kinds of huge life problems are hard. That said, I've come to conclude that it isn't a good sign if you feel like you're taking two steps back, and don't even see that one step forward.

At the end of the day, maybe "working through" the swampiness of it with T would help. But maybe not. I don't know that even a T would know...

It's a hard, hard place to be - especially if you want to see improvement, as I know you do.

I just wanted you to know you're not alone.

I would recommend you raise all of this with your therapist and see how he/she responds.

I asked mine why he thought therapy was failing and he just said, "You tell me."

...which, to me, sounded like he thinks its my fault. That was the last straw.

Maybe your T will have a better response.

I think you need to try to work out what your needs are. Like with the past trauma. What do you need that would improve that stressor? You can't change the past. So what happened will always be a part of you. Do you need for someone to just listen? Reassure you (if you would believe it?)? Help with coping skills for specific symptoms? Help you make goals?

My mom was horrible to me growing up. At 18, she's the one that kicked me out and made me homeless. I worked with my T at the time about her. I told her everything that happened, everything I felt. What helped was trying to look at it from my mom's perspective. Didn't help at first. But I realized that my mom just wasn't capable of being a mother to me. I got myself to the point where the past still hurt, but it wasn't affecting my life. My T then encouraged me to reach out to my mom, telling her the truth about everything. I did, and I gave my mom the opportunity to express herself. We laid down new boundaries one of which was to leave the past in the past. Now, 8 years after confronting her, my mom and I have a good relationship.

Sometimes we can't rewrite relationships like that. Sometimes there is nothing but moving forward. Will delving into your past really be beneficial to you?

I'm don't have any answers or solutions. I kinda just failed therapy, and I'm wondering why this will be beneficial. But for me, I know I improve with therapy. Maybe your T's modality isn't right for you. Or maybe therapy isn't right for you? Or could you be scared of something and running away? Just giving yourself a chance to think things over before making a rash decision.

Thanks guys... wanted to reply, but it's getting late here and I'm feeling a bit icky, and need to get some sleep. Hate losing track of time ("surprise, it's 12:30am! Why aren't I in bed!?")

NowhereUSA - I'm not sure what method we're doing. He might be aiming for psychodynamic? He has a lot of different things he uses, per his website, but I think that 's still trying to figure out what will work best with me. I'm difficult, not on purpose, but apparently kind of hard for therapists to pin down, and even with me trying to be open, it's not really apparently all OPEN! ... it's more like... you know, I'm trying... but I shut down a lot and am not able to talk/remember stuff in that state. He's good about helping me get out of it, but some things just keep shutting me down, no matter how many times he pulls me back, you know?

I'm not sure about the skills training stuff, honestly. I'm just not sure... maybe I don't know enough about it. We haven't really talked about it, other than him recommending DBT for the SI stuff.

Oh wow, Archipelago! That was really awesome, thanks for sharing... and it totally makes me want to stay in therapy! My world is really small right now too, and I'd love to get to the point where I can take on more, handle more, do more... and not be totally overwhelmed by *everything*. Thanks! Was there anything specific your T did to help? Is your T experienced with trauma? My T mentioned "trauma" just recently when I was trying really hard to get him to understand how fragmented, dreamlike, and... missing big pieces... my memory is. I wasn't sure he was getting it, even though I kept saying it. I'm still not sure he's going to remember, b/c the conversation just didn't go any further than him saying that the way I described it made it sound like trauma. I don't know if I even responded. I think that could be a good way to approach it, but I need... I don't know, help with what I'm supposed to do or validation or something (it's hard for me to see how my stupid little stuff could actually be big enough to fit under "trauma" - I think my *reactions* look like trauma reactions, but the actual stuff that I remember doesn't seem really worthy of the label.) Anyway, thanks - your description of what getting better looked like really helps!

Pfrog - thanks! I'll keep it in mind. I'm not sure that I'm there yet... if I take a break right now, honestly, I probably won't come back...

SoupDragon - I'm sorry you're having a rough time too! I really wish there was a way to get matched up with a therapist that we'd know has the experience and personality to help us, and to just know we're on the right path! It would make it so much easier... I hate how much time I waste going back and forth with uncertainty about my T

Hi Scallion - Thanks! I'm really glad that you're looking at some other Ts, I remember you talking (awhile ago?) about how your T wasn't willing or able to help out when you got lost in the silence, and it sounded awful. I've been there with other Ts, and it just sucked... it's one thing I'm grateful for about this T, he doesn't let me just drift off in silence. He's been good about that, so he does have *some* good points! You're right though, it sucks to feel like you're going backwards... and it sucks to not have anyway to tell if it's a necessary step in healing, or if you're just being destabilized with no help getting it back together It would be easier if I didn't like this T, and didn't feel like there's *some* potential... *sigh*. (BTW the fact that your T said, "you tell me" why therapy is failing - wow. I don't think I would deal with that well at all. I'm sorry!)

ScarletPimpernel - thanks... I don't even know how to begin to work out what my needs are, that's part of the problem. I feel totally "blind" in therapy, not sure what I should be doing, what "trying" or "working hard" looks like, what I need, where the path is... just eek. I think I'm trying, because I try to tell him stuff, even when I'd rather hide (and I've told him about the hiding!)... but I don't know! It really is like walking into a swamp, in the dark!

Wow, that's great that you were able to build a better relationship with your mom (I'm so not there with my mom, honestly). I think for me, the avoidance/dissociation probably plays a huge huge part in making therapy harder than it already is My brain just shuts down, or forgets, or gets distracted. Even when I'm scared/freaked out/freezing - I realize that (out of self-protection) I generally do it in a way that *looks* totally normal and well-adjusted. I've had to tell T early on when things he did scared me to the point of "freezing", and he couldn't tell. Once (the feet on the couch!) he was asking questions, and part of my brain just very easily kept talking and answering and making sense and making sure that I *looked normal* (b/c I think, to do otherwise, feels like *danger*!). But I have no idea what he asked or what I said, and I heard myself talking almost like listening to the radio... b/c most of my brain was just going on and on about, "why did he put the feet on the couch? He just told me boundaries are important and he wants this to be a safe place? What's going on? Should I say something? I'm sure I should, but I have no idea what to say! OMG!"

Phew... sorry... lots of thoughts, and it's late here, and my body is hurting a little from stressing over the depression screener and I'm ready to go crash... almost 1 am by me - yikes!

Thanks everyone! I really do appreciate all the thoughts and replies and help, and feeling not so alone and crazy with this!

I just wrote on Friday a letter to my T. about my crazy emotions. I wrote that I hate wanting what I can't have, thinking about therapy all the time and that I actually feel like I am paying someone to torture me. I said so the most logical way out is to stop coming.

I've told her this several times. Apparently it's a struggle for T's to keep people in therapy who have Childhood Emotional Neglect. I constantly ask myself why I'm going through all of this. Then, I remind myself that I'm mainly doing it to be a better mom to my girls.

My T. once told me that she thinks it would be hard for me if I quit. I'm sure she's realizing things that I don't. So, between that, my attachment to her and my girls, I keep making myself go. It has definitely gotten easier since last summer but it's definitely a struggle.

(((Guilloche)))

I think a break would be good for you. Or you could quit if you still feel the same in say a month's time. Its your choice

Have you considered trying a different "flavour" of therapy? I mean CBT, DBT, EMDR, psychodynamic, ACT, ...

I hope you find something that helps you.

Since this post, I have just had one of the most positive sessions with my T ever and I have been thinking. Maybe if the T wasn't for us, there would not be uncertainty, maybe if they were completely wrong, we would know immediately that it was not a good fit. Maybe there is not a perfect T as no T is a perfect human being, and maybe "good enough" is OK.

Maybe there are some core things that need to be there, like consistency, commitment, and for me great patience, but the rest is all stuff to work on in the T relationship.

I know I could cut off from T and walk out without blinking an eye, however this is my pattern in life and maybe the pain, SI etc. that kicks off in therapy, is just an indication of T actually working and getting past those defences that we (clients) have been so used to using to get through life the "Yes I am OK thanks" defence, that hides turmoil below it.

Yes I could cut off and get through life in a very superficial way, but today acknowledge that I stay because I want more for myself.

This is a very encouraging thought. Thanks.

Thanks everyone,

Sorry, things here have been rough and I lost track of the thread a little. But I appreciate all the very caring and smart replies!

Soccer Mom: " Apparently it's a struggle for T's to keep people in therapy who have Childhood Emotional Neglect."

Huh! Wow... that's really interesting. I wonder... I definitely have a background of neglect. I wonder how that plays into all this. Do you think it just makes the attachment hard? Makes it hard to believe T cares (I struggle so much with this!)? Or something else? Maybe... for me, I just feel like I've *always* had to do *everything* myself, alone. There really hasn't been anyone that I could "lean" on or depend on. And honestly, I'm not at the point (after 9 months!) that I feel like I can really "count" on my T yet. I don't think that's his fault, but I don't know how to deal with it either.

Very interesting to think about though... I might ask him about this. Thanks.

Soup Dragon: "Maybe if the T wasn't for us, there would not be uncertainty, maybe if they were completely wrong, we would know immediately that it was not a good fit. Maybe there is not a perfect T as no T is a perfect human being, and maybe "good enough" is OK.
Maybe there are some core things that need to be there, like consistency, commitment, and for me great patience, but the rest is all stuff to work on in the T relationship."

I'm so glad you had a good session with your T. I think you're right in a lot of ways. I kind of WISH my T was awful, and that I could see that from the start... because it would be so much easier to just say, "oh he's awful, I'm quitting".

I do think he's got some good qualities, and has been better in some ways than any other therapist I've seen... he projects a lot of "stability", he reads and reacts to things I write, he manages to not be defensive (whereas other Ts have gotten stuck thinking that I hated them personally, instead of understanding that I was just scared and hated therapy). I think he's committed, he does his own therapy, and he even gets supervision, despite having ~30 years of experience. All good things.

But I worry sometimes that he's not really an expert with my stuff. That he's not going to know how to deal with my stuff, and that I might need more of a specialist. But when I tried that, that didn't work either. So I go in circles. It's hard. I don't know what to do, honestly. But, I like my T enough, I think, to keep trying for now and see where it goes. I just hate to think that I might be wasting even MORE time and money, neither of which is plentiful!, if it's going to turn out that he doesn't have the skills to deal with my flavor of brokenness!

thanks!

Have you seen Apollo 13? The bit where they are keeping the capsule steady while it tries to hurtle chaotically through space? That's how I think of T. Keep8ng me steady, focused on an end point while my "chaos" tries to disrupt things. That just came to m8nd when you said about T knowing how to deal with your stuff. Maybe it is purely the steadying /steering that is the key, that allows us to become masters of our own stuff.

I have a VERY VERY VERY hard time with attachment. I seem to be ok with friends (if you even call that attachment) but I have fought it with my T. the entire time. I have told her I don't want to be close to her, I don't want to need her, etc. Then, the next session I'll be upset that I missed her, etc. It's a constant push/pull. And, she won't say "attaching to me is ok". She's fine with it but she wants it to happen like it would in another relationship, I guess.

OMG - I just told my T. for the billionith time last week that I want her to tell me she cares again. Were you there? LOL She has told me once but wants me to see it in her actions more than listening to her words. It really pissed me off and I think I'm still mad about it. Because I have a hard time seeing it and my mom's actions always said the opposite. My other problem is when my T. is direct, I equate it to her being mad or frustrated. And, I guess I do that with everyone even though people say I'm direct.

I was also taught to be independent. Actually, you could say I was taught not to need anyone. I couldn't even say "need" in the beginning. I'm going into month 12 with my T. but had seen her off and on for 5 years before for problem solving. In those first years, I NEVER thought about attachment, had feelings for her or anything. I didn't care either. After my mom died, everything changed and has been so uncomfortable.

There's a website about Childhood Emotional Neglect and the creator wrote the book Running On Empty. I have my session today and feel so indifferent. I was actually thinking I want the transference and crazy feelings to go away. I'm tired of wanting what I can't have.

I have T today, and don't want to go. On top of that, I had a really awful headache last night that seems to be sticking around, and I'm a little dizzy/nauseous feeling today. I just don't feel good. I'm back to being ready to quit. It's so expensive, and I'm stressing about boundaries and the "frame" not feeling secure (I don't care that he talks to a supervisor, but if I understand correctly, he uses my *actual* first name, and sends copies of things I've written via email. This feels so unsafe to me right now... email is not secure, and anyone snooping could easily figure out who I am by my first name, since I email him for schedule changes, and he emails me receipts. I don't care about someone/govt! finding out that I'm a patient of his, but my writing is really personal, I feel like it's at risk of being made public - but worse I feel like - why doesn't he already KNOW this stuff? Why isn't he using a pseudonym for me? Why isn't he better at protecting my privacy?)

SoupDragon - I haven't seen the movie, but that's such a nice thought! I wish I could believe it for me! But, I just don't know. I don't think I can work out my stuff without someone who understands/knows what's going on, and I think T (in general, not just my T) makes everything kind of worse... I am so much LESS stable in T, it's ridiculous. I'm back to arguing that I'd be better quitting. It really, literally, seems to be like this every other week or so Thanks.

Soccer Mom - Wow! First, yeah, the caring thing is SO freaking hard. (I think I responded to in-person discussions about "caring" like you do about "needs" - I don't want to say it, it makes me want to cry!) My T told me that he cared very early on, but frankly, it was too early... he didn't know me well enough to care, and I think I might have told him that. I don't tell him that I want him to care, because I think that if I *ask* him to say it, he'll say it to be therapeutic, not because of genuine care. I guess, part of me also just doesn't really expect/believe it. I'm feeling so unlikeable these days, I think if T just manages to not actively show dislike he's probably doing about the best he can! I don't know, maybe it's not the "caring" - I still just don't feel *understood*, and all the caring in the world seems a little useless without the understanding! Maybe I'm too picky though, or maybe me picking everything apart is a way to force him to show he cares? *sigh* So hard...

I find directness hard too. And... do you also freak out when people aren't showing *any* emotion, when they're just responding with very neutral, data, no expressions or anything? I've tried explaining this to my T (a friend and me did an experiment years ago, and it *really* freaked me out, and I think this is part of my problem with Ts in general, they don't seem to be very expressive!)

Very independent here too. Not so much taught, but more of a sink-or-swim thing, I guess. You know, my parents just weren't there parenting... so if I needed something, I needed to figure out how to get it myself, basically. I bet this is common with childhood neglect, and it makes total sense to me. But it sure makes it hard to get therapy! I don't feel like I need my T at all right now! I feel like, 9 months in, I still am not sure I want to be there, and would be fine quitting (except the little part of me that is attached, and gets rather sobby when I really think about leaving - argh!)

I've got that book (Running on Empty)! I think I didn't finish it though - my concentration for reading psych books has plummeted, and I started that when I was stressed last year about a work trip, and the stress sort of pushed everything else out of the way and took over! Did you find it helpful at all? I'm starting to feel like I can read for a million years, but I'm not sure it changes anything for me... Thanks!

For what it is worth, therapy made me a lot worse until I got the second one I see. Not because I tell them about each other, but because it seems more balanced. One handles some things better than the other and vice versa. Now that I am better at knowing what sorts of things to tell which one, it is, for me, much better.