How have your T's handled transference over the longer term?

you rocked it!!! I was thinking about your post and hoped your session went ok.

Aw, thanks TearinYourHand (love that song, by the way!) Nice to know you were thinking of me

A little nervous to see my T tomorrow, since we'll have to work (more) on where these emotions are coming from. Time to dredge up more childhood stuff...

OK, think I just had an "aha!" moment. Being a (good) parent involves being compassionate and caring while also setting boundaries. So MC is still acting in a paternal role to me by setting boundaries. Only this is more what he'd be like as a father in the real world (as shown by his using something with his daughter as an example), rather than my idealized version of a father. So, like I thought he was shifting into therapist mode in being like, "No you can't have exactly what you want." But maybe it's more like, "No, you can't just eat candy for dinner or stay up till 2 am on a school night." As in, he's trying to help/care for me by directing me toward what's best for me in the long run rather than what I want in the moment. (And he's not just being like, "OK, I don't want to deal with all this stuff with you--talk to your T about that instead.")

Hopefully that makes sense outside of my head.

Good work! Makes total sense to me!
My T. doesn't like to give me reassurance either. I KNOW why but I hate every minute of it. I have to remind myself that the boundaries, spacing sessions, etc. is really what she thinks is best for me and out of care for me. But, little me gets really pissed off and convinced she's my mom again. It sucks.

My T. won't validate either because she feels I should be comfortable with my feelings without someone telling me whether they are right or wrong because they are neither. Now, she will say things like "you'll be ok" every once in awhile or explain why I might feel a certain way which can be both. But, it's a usual "no" if I flat out ask. So, I'll have to also remember what your T. said. And, that's true. I would treat my kids the same way yet I want to be treated differently. Hmmmm.

Too bad your t and mc cant just switch themselves! It seems to me like you get more out of working with your mc, like he explains psychological things better. Anyway im glad you had a good session

I had the exact same thought. the feelings surfacing with MC are really important and it would be awesome if you could explore them individually since they don't seem, based on what you've posted, directly connected to your couples' work but an offshoot of those sessions.

I wish they could switch themselves, too! I also think my T would push my H more to talk about his feelings, though not sure how he'd respond to that.

So we see MC again this afternoon. I thought I was mostly OK with things after last weeks' session, but a few crying spells over the past week have made me realize I'm not really OK with things. I talked to H about it, and he's fine with us talking about it more at today's session. The thing is, I wonder if MC just assumes everything's all fixed now or if he's expecting more conversation about it. Though really, he should know me well enough at this point to expect me to discuss it more.

I'm just trying to figure out exactly what to say, aside from "I'm still having trouble dealing with our phone conversation a couple weeks ago." What I really want to know, I guess, is whether his door is now closed to me or if this is just a temporary thing while I get over the reassurance thing. Of course, my asking that is asking for reassurance, so he probably wouldn't answer. Or he'd say something like he did on the phone, like, "What if I said it was closed, why does that upset you so much?" or something like that.

OK, what I really want to ask is why he really changed how he's acting toward me--like is there some form of countertransference going on? But I assume he'd just say something like, "Every T has some sort of CT with every client." Or "Those are my issues to deal with, not yours."

Ugh, I just can't figure out how to ask him anything without sounding like I'm looking for reassurance, which will just prove his point. I just want him to help me figure out why I'm so attached to him and how to deal with that. I know he wants me to work with my T on that, but apparently, that hasn't been successful the past few months, or I wouldn't be in this place right now...

Session went OK with lots of sobbing on my part (and I barely even teared up last week). Feel better about things now. Well, at least for now! Just wish I was meeting with my T this week. More later.

My H brought up the fact that I wanted to talk about stuff, and I was like, "So, not quite ready for that, let's talk about other stuff for a few." Seeing my MC just made me want to be like, "OK, never mind, I'm good," but really I needed to talk about the stuff. So maybe 15 minutes in, MC was like, "OK, so you had some stuff to discuss about the last visit?" I said I'd thought I was OK last Monday, but then during the week had some weepy moments in the car or shower or, most recently, at a concert. I mentioned an e-mail I'd sent him last week (was an aha! moment I had related to our Monday session) and how I had been unsure whether to send it because I was afraid he'd misinterpret it as looking for reassurance. Then I started sobbing and said that I was afraid to ask him about anything right now because he might think it was looking for reassurance and push me away more. He just said it was OK to talk about anything and share anything. I was surprised that when I started crying my H actually reached over and briefly rubbed my shoulder--he usually just does nothing when I'm emotional.

MC asked how much I thought what I was feeling had to do with his and my relationship specifically compared with stuff in my past. I said I figured most of it was stuff in my past, and I wanted to figure that out, and that's what I really want to meet with him about, not just the reasssurance stuff.

I then, still sobbing, addressed the "my door is always open to you" thing with MC, where he'd told me that a few months ago in our second individual session and seemed to be saying it was open to me (like for individual sessions in the future). I said I felt that when he said that it was really comforting to me, and now it feels like he's taken that away and so it's hard for me to trust what he says now about that sort of thing. He said that he meant it at the time (a few months ago), but his "thoughts have evolved" a bit that it's probably better for me to just meet with him in joint sessions with my husband instead of meeting individually again. Since if a couple is in therapy together and a T meets with one indivdually some it could interfere with the couples therapy. So at least he addressed it, but I'm still kind of upset about it.

It sounds like he wants to be focusing on H and I as a couple and let my T do the individual thing, which I guess makes sense. But I told him that I wasn't sure I was connecting as well with my T lately (see other thread) and that I just felt like he "got me" more than she does. He said he'd take that as a compliment and it meant a lot to him (and thanked me). But also said he only knew a few T's as good/better than her, and he wasn't one of them. So he wants me to work with her, as he said before, which I said I'd do, but that I wished I could work with him more.

Sounds like it's fine for the most part though if I want to talk about some of my own stuff in our joint sessions, as long as it somehow relates to me and H as a couple. Though really, if I'm struggling with something, it's likely going to affect my marriage, which is what I said. H is pretty much fine with whatever I want to talk about. We also talked about how this transference stuff was affecting my relationship with H. Both H and I agreed that, especially the past few weeks, it's brought us closer together. Like I've been more open with him, and he's been receptive and supportive. Which MC was very happy about.

He also said that having a negative interaction like he and I did is often what leads to progress in therapy. Like experiencing that and working through it helps push things forward. So I was like, "OK, was this all a setup then?" Mostly joking.

MC was saying again how I could have just run away from all this (like decided to stop therapy with him), but I haven't and I've come in and dealt with it, which shows I'm strong. (Or, you know, just totally attached to him, but I didn't say that.) I told him how I hadn't experienced transference with past T's, just with him and my current T, so this is throwing me. (So I wasn't someone that just attached to anyone that seemed caring.) That I'd probably experienced transference with another male authority figure in the past (teacher) but it had been a very long time, so it was hard for me. And he said transference was a way that you can really figure out certain feelings--so maybe for him transference isn't such a negative force after all? Like he seemed to say that feeling the intense emotions helped draw out what I really needed to work on.

I said at the end of the session that I did feel better about things, but that I also thought that last week. And that tends to be a pattern with me in general, where I'm like, "OK, this is fine, then a few days later I'm like, "Wait, no it's not." So MC was like, "Get back to me on Thursday."

So that's the main points of what came out of the session. As we were about to leave, I was like, "So is it OK then if I e-mail you sometimes?" which of course made the tears come a bit more. He said yes, but then was starting to add in some buts, and I was expecting restrictions or something like that, but he just said they were in the process of changing e-mail servers so to be mindful if I get a bounceback or don't hear back it could be because of that. So I was pleasantly surprised that he wasn't like, "Well, you should just e-mail T."

I do feel somewhat better now but still wish he was more open to things like meeting with him. And it would be better if I was seeing T this week, but she's out a couple days and couldn't fit me in. I do see p-doc Friday, but that's really just a med check (wondering if I need something other than Cymbalta, but that's a whole other story...)

Oh, and this is so dumb, but...Usually when T shakes our hands at the end of the session, he says, "Good to see you" to each of us. Last week, he just said, "Have a good week." So of course my brain went to "He doesn't want to say it was good to see me because maybe that will seem like reassurance, and he doesn't want to be giving me that." And it made me sad. So I was relieved this week when he went with the usual, "Good to see you."

I am not good at having feelings about therapy.

But, having said that, I think it is insane to expect people to develop a bond with a therapist, trust that therapist, be more open than ever before to that therapist - and then not need any reassurance from them.

Uh. Okay.

I think the therapeutic model is a bit broken, because therapists seem to want to have it both ways. They want you to be vulnerable and open and to feel all your feelings. And they also want you to be completely independent of them and not need them.

And I don't think those two states are compatible. Emotional intimacy is the strongest form of intimacy there is. Of course you're going to need / want / crave reassurance from your therapist. That's not unhealthy. That's natural.

I feel like therapists put themselves in this position which makes you so intensely vulnerable with them, and then punish you for your needs and wants and tell you that you'll grow from it.

I smell nonsense there.

All this reminds me of the great divide when it comes to sleep training babies where at the one etreme end some say that you must not react to their crying at all so they can learn to sleep alone. Some of your therapists sound like that and I actually find that quite frightening because care or reassurance isn't like crack, you don' get addicted, wreck your life and die. No one ever has stopped having basic emotional needs by not getting them met. This is just bizarre.

The entire goal is to not need reassurance from others and be able to find it within yourself. If someone always gives it to you, you don't have the desire to learn to look for it within yourself. My T. will reassure but not when I point blank ask for it. Also, for some people hearing it isn't enough. My T. has pointed out that even if she says it, I will want to hear it again and risk becoming dependent on it. And, I agree. My goal is to not want/need her so I can go back to my life. If she gave me everything I needed, I would never want to leave. I don't think the hole my mother left can ever be filled - that is what I had to learn the most - no one can fill it up.

Also, therapists want us to eventually be on our own so, yes, they want us to not need them. It doesn't mean we can never need them but the need should be able to fade as therapy progresses. We have to identify our needs, see which ones our T.'s can fulfill and then find other ways to meet the ones they cannot.

Sounds like your session went well. I have had these exact thoughts in my sessions and replay them over and over in between. I am usually wrong in my thinking and cause myself the distress, not my T. As my T. used to say "you're making this all about me". At the time I thought it IS all about you. But, it's not - it's all about my mother. Hang in there and try to remember positive times in your sessions when you start to go down the negative talk path.

I'd like to believe it's not that calculated. They need to get you to feel safe with them so that you'll open up. MC has talked about the need to feel safe in there (and I've commented before that I feel "safe" with him, to a greater degree than with my individual T, even though I've been seeing him longer). At least in terms of couples therapy, from what he's said, part of the idea is to feel safe sharing things with him and my H in the session, and then that should eventually carry over to me feeling safe sharing things with my H outside of the session (and vice versa). And I think that is happening now. My H even commented in our session yesterday that I used to wait until a session to bring up concerns or issues, so H was in the dark about them until then. But now I just bring them up at home or while we're out at dinner instead of waiting. And H seems to be doing that a bit more, too.

Of course, the couples therapy model doesn't include one of the clients having strong transference for the MC. I get the sense from what my T has said that this is a much less common occurrence than having it with an individual T (she's been in practice for like 30 years but still opted to consult with some colleagues to determine how I should handle it--like whether I should tell MC, etc. Ended up having an individual session--well, two--with him to address it). So there's not necessarily a standard way of dealing with this scenario.

I completely agree that wanting reassurance from your T is normal, especially when you're dealing with intense emotions and childhood stuff. And it's not like I'm asking for it constantly--it's like I got it back in March when I first shared feelings with MC, then became, for whatever reason, insecure a couple months later and wanted reassurance. So it's not like every week I'm like, "Are we still OK? You're not going anywhere, right?" I do get that it won't help if I become completely dependent on him, but I feel like a more gradual process would be better. I don't know--I mean, maybe it would be painful for me no matter how it was handled. I just wish MC was willing to work a bit more with me directly/individually to deal with it (and H is totally on board with that).

Having sleep-trained a baby, I get what you're saying here. There are so many recommended methods, some that seem much more gradual. But some of them didn't work with my daughter. We ended up having to do the often-maligned "Ferber method," which some refer to as "cry it out." But it's really not that, it's going in to reassure the child in increasing intervals. Like, go in at 3 minutes, then at 7 minutes, then at 12, something like that. So the baby isn't just in there screaming for an hour with no comfort. I was reluctant to do that, but within a few days, it worked!

Of course, now she's 4 and often wants me to lay in bed with her till she falls asleep, and I feel like I want to be there to reassure her and make her feel safe. But I probably need to gradually stop doing that to sort of retrain her.

Sorry, that went way off-topic, but I guess I was trying to say that even with sleep training, there should be a gradual easing off of reassurance, not like cold turkey. But I get the sense that maybe I misunderstood MC a bit, since in yesterday's session, he didn't seem totally against my getting any reassurance. I think he may realize he went a bit too far in the "give reassurance" direction (like the equivalent of lying in bed next to me--which would be nice!), and to correct that, he went too far in the "cry it out" direction. And yesterday it seemed more like he was closer to a middle ground.

Hm, and I guess this all particularly applies since it's mostly paternal transference. And his background is in developmental psychology, so he knows a lot about infant and childhood development (though his main work is with teens). However, I'm also not a kid (far from it!). So the same theories may not apply to me.

Eek, that ended up much longer than I intended! (I think I need to make that my signature for posts!)

Soccermom--I always appreciate your comments. This seems to be similar to what my MC is saying, that he doesn't want me to be dependent on the reassurance and always seeking it from him. If I'm seeking reassurance from anyone, it should be from my H. Though ideally, I wouldn't need it from him either. I think MC is trying to get me to figure out what's behind the transference and deal with that. Hence his questions about whether it's mostly about him or mostly about stuff from the past. And I've said I assume it's mostly stuff from the past. The thing is, I need to figure out exactly what all that stuff is so I can deal with it. That's what I wanted his help with--if he's the one bringing up these feelings, it makes sense to me that he could help me get to the bottom of them and find out what I need or need to deal with. And *then* I can work on it with my T.

I wonder if they'd ever be willing to do a sort of joint session with me...I know MC and T did joint marriage counseling with a couple once (which is why my T knew he was good at marriage counseling and is also familiar with his style in that). I sort of joked about it with my T when she offered me the same slot one week that we already had with MC. Actually, I think a session with all four of us could be fascinating...

I think I'm almost curious to have my T see how I interact with MC compared with how I interact with her. Though I might act differently with her in the room, like I might be all self-concious or something.

And yeah, I'm making this about MC, when it's really about my father, plus other male authority figures. And maybe a bit of my mother, toot.

I do try to remember the positive times with MC--and there were definitely more of those than negative times. That's what keeps me there instead of running away...

Every time you have these feelings/thoughts about MC, think about how it relates to your dad. I didn't see that at first with my mom. But, once I started, I could see I was totally wanting from my T. what my mom didn't give me and treating her like my mom. It was a little freaky!

So, for you, is it more about needs you had from your mom during childhood? My dad is still alive (thankfully!), and our relationship is pretty good. But I feel like what I was missing from him was during my childhood/teen years, when I really needed that understanding and acceptance--and also guidance, I guess.

I think some of this is coming out, too, because I have a 4-year-old daughter now, so I see myself in her. Especially because she may have some anxiety issues (plus is a bit delayed in language). And I don't want my H to replay the pattern of my dad. I want us both to help and accept her and make her feel reassured the way I wanted to be.

Luckily, my T had a cancellation this afternoon, so I'm going in at 5. I didn't want to have to wait another week to see her, with what seems to be a mountain of stuff piling up to address. Plus I'm feeling pretty badly about things with MC this morning, so it will help to talk with her (I hope!)

I'm honestly curious how they know the difference between "maternal transference" and just wanting a hug from someone who you care about. It seems a little hurtful and punitive.

I think of my pastor as a "mother figure" and she hugs me every week and every time we meet up to talk. It makes me feel loved and safe... No drama because it's not therapy. Sometimes I think therapy removes itself too far from normal human interaction and pathologizes it in a way that's unhealthy.

Part of it with my T is that I've told her I've found myself reluctant to tell her about certain things. Then realized it's because my mother would have reacted negatively to them, so that's probably why. At the same time, I don't have nearly as much attachment to her as I do to my MC. And with him it's different--it's more of an idealized paternal figure with a touch of erotic transference. No erotic transference for my T (I've told her, you're attractive and well-dressed, but sorry, women aren't really my thing, don't be offended! Which has made her laugh). So, yeah, I don't really see why hugs would be so bad from my T. Maybe I'll try asking for one today and see if she runs away screaming

OK, I now feel really bad about thinking I should switch to a different T because mine was just awesome today. She just really listened and seemed to understand why I was feeling how I was about MC switching from open to closed door. Then tried to work with me to figure out where the feelings were coming from, going over a bunch of things from my past. She thinks it might not just be about my relationship with my dad or with any one person, but more about a bunch of different relationships. Particularly some with people I'd opened up to and expected things from but who had ended up hurting me. I think she gets my whole fear of sharing feelings and why the thing with MC hit me so hard (since it happened right after I shared feelings).

We touched on a lot of different things that I won't go into here. But toward the end, I was speculating on the fact that MC had maybe loosened some boundaries then felt he had to tighten them again, but why did that happen? She seemed hesitant to share an idea, but then shared anyway. She said T's have to learn not to become too emotionally invested in their clients, or else it would be overwhelming to them (to T's, that is). And she personally had to learn that quickly. She said she still gets overinvested from time to time. So they have to set boundaries of some type to keep that from happening.

So she thinks maybe MC became too emotionally invested in me, which led to him loosening his boundaries (allowing a couple individual sessions despite the couples counseling, talking just about my issues in some sessions, etc.) T said that could in part have happened because I'm a patient who is interested in the process of therapy and who wants to work on things and get better (unlike some patients who just expect T's to magically fix everything for them without doing work). So she said that could have been really appealing to him, in that I was really listening and taking in what he said and actually wanted him to help me. I imagine the whole having transference thing was probably appealing to him, too, though she didn't specifically say that. (And when I say "appealing," I don't necessarily mean in a romantic or sexual sense.) But then something made him realize, whoa, I'm too invested here, what am I doing? And then he closed back the doors he'd opened for me.

My T asked me that, if that were the case, would I feel better if he admitted that and apologized for it? (She said she wouldn't say anything to him about it, just was curious). And I said I thought it would help, especially because then I wouldn't be blaming myself, either for sharing my feelings of love or being too needy, etc. I said he tends to be someone who does apologize for things or worry out loud that he's doing something wrong, so it's a little surprising he wouldn't for this. But then, I guess, it could also be weird for him to do that in front of my H, like saying, "So I got emotionally invested in your wife" because then H might think he's biased toward me or something. Plus I imagine it's hard for a T to admit that they crossed boundaries--or maybe he'd think that would make me feel worse, who knows?

I can't decide how it makes me feel to think that. In a way, it makes me feel good that he felt emotionally invested in me and went beyond what he would normally do. But it also hurts more that he took it away because, like, I saw what I could have, if that makes any sense. I still feel like I'd rather know. Do I find some way to ask him about it? Like say, could I speak to him for 5 minutes at the end of Monday's session? Ask for a brief phone call? I wouldn't say it came from T, could just say was reading about a similar situation on the boards or something. I just think much of why I'm upset is that I keep blaming myself and thinking he's pushing me away because I shared my feelings. I mean, maybe that is what made him realize, oh, damn, this is getting too close, but it still wouldn't all be about me messing up by being open.

So do I try to find some way to ask him about it (without sounding accusatory)?

I guess I just don't see it that way at all theoretically speaking, I don't think that's how independence develops, not in children and not in adults. I also don't see the problem with dependence, it;s not like we're taking fully functional problem free adults and turn them into non functioning problem riddled individuals through dependence. I also think that for most people there is a point where they will feel saturated with care and want to create more distance by themselves, just like it happens with teenagers.