[musinglizzy]

We've brought up boundaries a lot in this forum... thought it would be a good conversation starter again. Many of us have been hurt by changing boundaries. Many of us strong souls actually have MORE boundaries than the therapist. The power poll had me think of this.

How do you feel about boundaries? Have they ever severely damaged you? I believe boundaries are fine, but I would like consistency with them. I would not like them used and moved around for gain for the therapist (as in reducing boundaries to try to gain trust, only to put that wall back up again). Therapy is not about the needs/desired of the T, and my opinion is, using boundaries (or lack of) to help them create trust/connection/whatever is abuse of power. I may not be using my words correctly....but that's how I feel.

I respect those Ts who may tailor boundaries for a specific client, but I really think they need to be careful in that....and try to remain consistent with said client. Oh...there was one post on here (I think I tried to get it pinned) that was such a good post on boundaries.... by someone who's not active on here anymore. I'll try to find it, and post the thread.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I have to run, but just had a brief comment on this.

When I finally told my current T about my old one (I don't know if you remember, but it took months and months), she made a comment about boundaries. She also teaches in the clinical psych graduate orogram at my university and has clinical psych interns under her. She said that one of the most important things about boundaries is for the therapist to remember that they're there mainly to protect the client and not the other way around. She said if one of her interns did what my therapist did to me, she would probably kick them outvof the program because they're putting the client at risk because of their own issues (although keep in mind that she works with a pretty severely ill client base at the hospital outpatient psychiatry so I guess a high risk population anyway). Therapy shouldn't cause you MORE damage, and boundaries should be there to protect you, not hurt you worse.

It really is a mindf*** and shaming to have someone change things and refuse to discuss why.

musinglizzy, would you be willing to give a good working definition of the term "boundary" in psychotherapy?

[atisketatasket]

Boundaries haven't damaged me in either direction. One of mine did make it clear she was willing to relax her boundaries for me in all kinds of ways, and I made it equally clear back that I wasn't interested.

Generally though, yes, therapists should set and maintain consistent boundaries. And respect any the client has.

[stopdog]

I believe in keeping therapists in their place. The one time I shifted my boundaries in a tiny way, the therapist was indeed dangerous to me.
The therapist's boundaries are of no real consequence to me - anything that keeps them back and away from me is good I think.
I don't look upon therapists as allies.

I haven't found boundaries to really be much of an issue in therapy. For me, recognizing another person's boundaries is generally pretty easy to do, and I have pretty clear boundaries. I think my T's and I just have had a good read on each other that way so it just hasn't really come up.

I would describe my T's boundaries as clear, yet flexible when necessary. Mine are probably about the same. Maybe the fact that our boundaries are quite similar is why it just hasn't come up.

I would say my boundaries were practically non-existent when I was younger, but as I have aged they have become healthier as I have gained confidence and the ability to be assertive and proactive.

[musinglizzy]

Well, I think boundaries set the structure for the working relationship. Jeez...I'd have to think on that...a good working definition of the term. Boundaries, basically rules. Obvious boundaries would include not having a sexual relationship with a client, or dual relationship, but boundaries can also revolve around session time limits, touch, disclosure, and out of session contact, just to name a few. I've read that boundaries are to protect the client.... well, my T maintains boundaries to protect herself. I set "boundaries" in how often my brother can come free-load at my house. He also has very poor hygiene, so another one I have is that if he DOES come over, he needs to shower. I set boundaries for my son all the time, but they can be negotiable to a point. I set boundaries for my pets. My horses are not to bite me, (I 'bite back'). my cats are not allowed on the counter, and my dog is not allowed to jump up on me. I've set a boundary with my temporary room mate. If my door is closed, I want to be left alone. I NEED my space, and boundaries needed to be set because she is incredibly needy/whiney, and likes to talk, and I like my space, and can be very quiet and kept to myself when I'm having a bad day.

So I don't want to say I think boundaries are "bad," they are not, and really they are a requirement...I'm one who has allowed people to walk all over me at some points in my life, and setting boundaries have helped.

I think in therapy though, being so one sided (which is why it works), boundaries can let a client know they are safe in that environment. But when there's too much inconsistency, that can be very damaging and dangerous. I think some boundaries ought to just stay consistent. Like touch...if you do not like using touch in therapy that's fine, but stick with that, don't stray from it for awhile, then shut it down again. Contact. T's can choose to allow contact or not, but they should stick with that too. A friend of mine on here was allowed to text her T...only to have her T appear to take it away. I guess I understand if the client is abusing the priviledge, but the T should say up front that excessive text/Emails are not ok. And set a boundary. 2 Emails per week, etc.... I'm NOT saying this from experience, because my T highly encourages Emails between sessions, and I always limited myself. She nags me to keep Emailing her, and that's a boundary I set for myself. I'm not going to Email her unless I want to, and have something to say.

I never had issues with boundaries in therapy, but I think they should be very consistent and concise from the beginning and should not change. I think changing boundaries is a sign of an unstable/unethical therapist.

[JaneTennison1]

Ex T would make and break boundaries all the time. One time she offered me her cell number which I declined. I used to email as a way to get my thoughts out but asked that she not reply. She did frequently reply and then stopped after several months citing her boundary and explaining other clients didn't need email so why did I (which I had never asked her to reply and nor really wanted it)

This change was so shaming. She used to be open to calls if I needed and the abruptly changed that without telling me. Her boundaries were for her benefit to what ever suited her and the inconsistency made me crazy.

Current T and I haven't discussed boundaries. I don't want a single thing from her and I will never try to please her by following her rules. I have my rules and boundaries and I'm sure they are far stricter. For example she seemed open to emails if I asked, I didn't, it may be a great way for me to store my feelings but ill never make that mistake again.

I don't care what rules a T has as long as they are consistent.

[Perna]

I don't think boundaries and rules are quite the same. The rules set by the therapist in psychotherapy -- show up on time, pay on time :-) let them know within 24 hours if one has to cancel, email or no email, no sexual contact, etc. have to do with the actual therapy situation itself and I do not think should be taken personally. Personal boundaries -- hugs or handshakes, gifts, perhaps some language/other physical issues -- those things each person has their own feelings about, hence the "personal" aspect, and I don't think another person's boundaries should necessarily impact our own. A therapist is doing their own thing, hopefully therapeutically-wise, and that's not my problem. If they allow hugs then decide not to allow hugs, I let them know that might be painful for me as I enjoy hugs but then I look at it therapeutically and investigate why hugging at this time might not be a good idea for me in therapy/this relationship. I try to remember it is always therapy and not a "normal" relationship so I try to think of what is going on between myself and my therapist in light of my therapy, not my personal desires.

[musinglizzy]

Here is the post I was talking about. Have not seen the poster in quite some time...

http://forums.psychcentral.com/psych...oundaries.html

[magno11789]

Boundaries haven't damaged me. I probably have more boundaries than any of the T's I've had. When it comes to boundaries I think consistency is important. I think it is important for conversation between therapist and client if the therapist wants to change boundaries that way the client is caught off guard. However, I believe somethings like touch or emailing should stay consistent if the T allows. Now, if the client emails or calls too much I believe the T has the right to maybe set a number on allowed emails.

[healed84]

I think boundaries are good.. But most of them aren't universal except the no sex with the client thing. My t has always been pretty loose with his boundaries. We have a dual relationship and t has always reminded me just to always keep talking about it. So, in my relationship with it has been a healthy thing. It has taught me to be open a communicate when I felt something was off or ask him if me doing something would be a violation of a boundary. There are boundaries in every relationship that we have. So, having them on both client and t part are a good way to practice for your relationships outside of T's office.

For example.. Recently T's wife friended me on Facebook, I know her from our kid's schools and dance studio things. So, her and I have a friendly relationship. My first instinct was to on the request.. But then I was like.. Well, duh she is T's wife and I know for sure t is not fiends with his clients on fb. So, I quickly sent him and email asking how he feels. He responded and acted appropriately Ana then he thanked me for being mindful of his boundaries.

Thanks musinglizzy. I'm still not totally clear, and that's probably just me. I do believe there is a difference between rules and boundaries as another poster mentioned, but that left me more perplexed as I thought got about it. With rules there are usually negative consequences, even if the rule is stated in a positive way. With boundaries, I think of a win/win situation. She keeps her comfort and you know what to expect, and are kept safe in the therapeutic frame. No shaming. If the boundary is reached or broken there is no harsh penalty, it is discussed, one is reminded of it or it's even renegotiated. If boundaries are a win/win situation then you and others would not have been left devastated and fearful. So I believe your therapist had a rule for herself of not touching clients and not saying I love you, etc., she broke them, needed to pin the blame on you, which in turn has left you in acute distress. I honestly believe there is some passive-aggressive behaviors going on with her. You have the fear and she has the power. My opinions only.

I used to fear all the boundary violations that are spoken about in this forum. And, I needed to know what my mom therapis's boundaries were, because I was not going to be one of those clients. I was going to protect myself, and not let the woman hurt me. I've been hurt before in therapy. Her comment about boundaries still reverberates in my ear every time I read about boundaries on PC. "There are no boundaries." Short of rules along the legal lines, she could not set boundaries in advance. She couldn't really know what they were in advance and give them to me. If things bothered her we would discuss them like I would do with things that bothered me. She allowed touch. I don't see touch as a boundary in general, but I'm sure she would have spoken up as to what her limit was if she felt uncomfortable, not throw the baby out with the bath water, and the blame me.

At this point I'm still in a pickle to understand the term boundary, or boundary vs rule especially in psychotherapy.

boundary vs rule especially in psychotherapy

Might help to think of boundaries as sort of an extension of oneself, including the unconscious mind.

Hypothetical examples of how that can play out--

"I need the approval of this person so badly, that I will sacrifice myself. I will allow them to take, take, take, until I have no more to give." (also revictimization) This is sort of boundryless person. The person asserts no boundaries and others who are predispositioned will take advantage whether intentional or not. A therapist can sight of the t-relationship by being swept away by their own issues here.

"I have no worth, so I will give, give, give, take care of others' needs, while ignoring my needs" This leads to revictimization as well....This could be a therapist responding to every whim of a needy client. Or, a victim of child abuse getting revictimized...

"I need to be a savior" A therapist with this persona is really prone to serious boundary violations as they can lose sight of therapy altogether. For example, this could be the type of therapist who invites the client to his/her home as nothing will stand in the way of saving the client

"I am so absorbed/anxious/worried about my own needs getting met, that I do not even see the other person's needs" This could be a person contacting the therapist way too much though innocently. The person turns into the perpetrator

"If I let someone get to know me, they will reject me. I can't let myself be vulnerable lest be hurt" This could drive a therapist to the profession so that they can have relationships with others (clients) while staying safe and distanced

"My needs are more important than others' needs. Their needs don't matter". This is someone who may purposely take from others, objectify, and violate. Abuse can be thought of as a violation of another's boundaries.

This is one of the main reasons why it is so important for a therapist to have gone through depth therapy themselves!

Healthy boundary:

"I take care of my own needs and want to be there for my clients as well, while maintaining professionalism. I know myself well enough to know I tend to be a people pleaser, so I will limit emails to x per week, etc"

I think Puzzlebug said it elsewhere-poor boundaries is a sign of an unsafe therapist. It could be innocent, a result of that person's own upbringing. I wouldn't put misjudgments in this same category though as everyone makes mistakes.

A therapist should be keenly aware of these things--but in themselves as much as in their clients. Looking at those examples, you might see how people who are victims of abuse can be revictimized by not asserting boundaries. One main reason why it is the therapist's job to manage boundaries rather than blaming a client when things go wrong.

Boundaries are much, much more than rules. They reflect your character. They are very important!

[Cinnamon_Stick]

I am glad there are boundaries because it keeps me, the client safe. There are some that I don't like and wish they weren't there. I have not been damaged by boundaries. My T did change my out of session contact by saying she would not do therapy by phone or email but I still can email and call if I really need to. It was a slight change she did and at first I was upset but after we talked about it I saw that she did it so that nothing gets misinterpreted (we had a few miscommunications) and she has always had my best interest at heart. It actually made me trust her more. She is very consistent and tells me things up front. Consistency is what I need the most for therapy to work for me. She is very ethical and I really like that even if some of the boundaries aren't my favorite.

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[scorpiosis37]

Boundaries were never really an issue during my therapy (5 years with T). My T was almost always consistent, and willing to tailor many of her boundaries to the specific client at hand. She allowed outside contact (text/email), and I used it sparingly so it never became problematic. The only boundary I found a little confusing was that, when I asked about her boundaries around touch, she said hugs and sitting next to me were fine, but she would not hold/embrace me when I cried. I said "ok." But then, at least 2 or 3 times over the course of our 5 years together, she did (briefly) hold me while I cried. I did wonder if our definitions were different and it's not considered "holding" if it's so short, or if she was just acting on instinct in the moment and wasn't thinking about her boundaries and crossed them. Either way, she didn't cross MY boundaries so I was okay with it. And I never asked because I didn't want to seem nitpicky or accusatory, or cause her to tighten her boundaries. I was never concerned with her crossing my boundaries, only with me inadvertently crossing hers. But I never did.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I honestly think part of the problem is the overuse/focus on "boundaries" in therapy makes it seem awkward and unnatural and that's part of why it's hard.

My current one has only ever used the word that one time ( above, when we talked about my ex-T) and I like it like that. She definitely has stronger boundaries but she doesn't make a big deal about them, although I guess she would if I actedi inappropriately, but I don't.

Though current one and pdoc kind of set me the strictest boundary I've ever had in therapy (your cutting has gotten too dangerous and if you do it even one more time we're going to have to... To protect you). But I did feel like it was a natural consequence to my risky behaviour and as upset as I was it didn't feel clunky or artificial.

I also think it's so harmful to say something like "I don't care if you email me every day," and then get told it's too much if you email 3 times in one week. I think they need to remember what they say to clients or it can get really really harmful.

I am weary of ts and their boundaries, having been stung by my first t and her strange boundaries.
She would text me first, I got confused with what her role was and the boundaries of our therapuetic alliance. It was my first experience of therapy and she didn't explain the boundaries within our relationship.
At the time I was very lonely and desperate for connection, naively I thought by her contacting me and checking in that she was being a good friend. I would text her occasionally and she didn't like that and gave me a lecture about boundaries. I was confused. Next t friend requested me on Facebook and when I accepted she sent me a message on Facebook saying we can never be friends and denying she sent me a request. Needless to say at this stage I was really confused and distressed by therapists and their boundaries.
A few years later and I still don't trust therapists to keep safe boundaries for me so I instil them for the both of us by not contacting t outside of sessions and by not getting too close incase I have to rely on them. I know this is not entirely healthy either but I can't trust a t to be there anymore. I have seen do many ts with boundaries looser than their knickers and it frustrates me that they then deny any wrong doing.

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[laxer12]

I think boundaries are important for me because I have a tendency to get attached to people, especially when I start to open up to them. My T has not been a T for very long but has some pretty solid boundaries which I appreciate. Sometimes I wish that they weren't there but then I realize that they are there for a reason and it would not be helpful for me to not not have them. We don't talk about boundaries because I don't push them nor ask about them. I'm sure that if I were to start pushing her boundaries, we would talk about it.

Originally Posted by ex vivo

Might help to think of boundaries as sort of an extension of oneself, including the unconscious mind.

Hypothetical examples of how that can play out--

"I need the approval of this person so badly, that I will sacrifice myself. I will allow them to take, take, take, until I have no more to give." (also revictimization) This is sort of boundryless person. The person asserts no boundaries and others who are predispositioned will take advantage whether intentional or not. A therapist can sight of the t-relationship by being swept away by their own issues here.

"I have no worth, so I will give, give, give, take care of others' needs, while ignoring my needs" This leads to revictimization as well....This could be a therapist responding to every whim of a needy client. Or, a victim of child abuse getting revictimized...

"I need to be a savior" A therapist with this persona is really prone to serious boundary violations as they can lose sight of therapy altogether. For example, this could be the type of therapist who invites the client to his/her home as nothing will stand in the way of saving the client

"I am so absorbed/anxious/worried about my own needs getting met, that I do not even see the other person's needs" This could be a person contacting the therapist way too much though innocently. The person turns into the perpetrator

"If I let someone get to know me, they will reject me. I can't let myself be vulnerable lest be hurt" This could drive a therapist to the profession so that they can have relationships with others (clients) while staying safe and distanced

"My needs are more important than others' needs. Their needs don't matter". This is someone who may purposely take from others, objectify, and violate. Abuse can be thought of as a violation of another's boundaries.

This is one of the main reasons why it is so important for a therapist to have gone through depth therapy themselves!

Healthy boundary:

"I take care of my own needs and want to be there for my clients as well, while maintaining professionalism. I know myself well enough to know I tend to be a people pleaser, so I will limit emails to x per week, etc"

I think Puzzlebug said it elsewhere-poor boundaries is a sign of an unsafe therapist. It could be innocent, a result of that person's own upbringing. I wouldn't put misjudgments in this same category though as everyone makes mistakes.

A therapist should be keenly aware of these things--but in themselves as much as in their clients. Looking at those examples, you might see how people who are victims of abuse can be revictimized by not asserting boundaries. One main reason why it is the therapist's job to manage boundaries rather than blaming a client when things go wrong.

Boundaries are much, much more than rules. They reflect your character. They are very important!

Thanks for your reply. I do believe it is the therapist JOB to set boundaries for herself keeping in mind the needs of the client. Boundaries were not an issue in my therapy. My therapist has strong boundaries in taking care of herself.

A variation of your example is a true experience for me. "You can write as many emails a day if you want, 30 or 300. It doesn't matter to me." What did matter to my therapist is that I understand, she would only read emails, and or respond to emails if she had time. THAT IS HER BOUNDARY, I'm guessing. This was stated when I first asked to send emails at 3:00 am, and that she did not have to respond. That is taking care of herself. Boundaries are an individual thing, and need to work for both the client and the therapist. Just because one therapist is burned out at responding to ten emails this week, and another is not, does not make the second therapist unsafe.

My therapist responded to 2/3 of my many emails in 18 months. She didn't put pressure on herself to respond to that many (her words). She even shared with me at one point she was extremely busy, and there might be a period time, she might not be able to respond like she had been. It was not a problem for me. This was my second warning. She was more concerned than me. I believe it's when therapists put expectations on themselves and they can't meet those expectations that many go crazy , start screaming about their boundaries, and then take it out on their client(s). I've really only seen two Posters on this forum that have had therapists make mistakes when it came to emails/text that have handled it in what I consider a semi proper way. And, when they saw the effects on their clients they set out to make repair to address the needs of their clients, and therapy was able to truly move forward.

I am not as confused now, as to what people see as boundaries. I just don't see it the same way as some. And, that is not a bad thing.

Thanks again.

[PinkFlamingo99]

I also think we lose sight of the idea of boundaries being there to help the client.

Stuff like, "It's okay to call me, but no more than once a week in case of emegency because it's not healthy to rely so much on me."

Or "I don't mind if you call me in crisis, but you have to go through these things first and if I don't answer the phone, then move on and call a crisis line, go to the hospital, etc, because I can't always answer the phone and you need to keep yourself safe anyway."

There's so much emphasis on boundaries being for the therapist, without much thought about whether they harm the client.

My therapist was willing to give 100% of herself for 5 years which made me feel loved and special. The problem was when she no longer wanted to do that and pulled a 180. I was set up to be hurt not just from when she changed the boundaries but from the beginning. It wss all about what she wanted to do or could handle, and she didn't cwe about keeping me safe. It's a serious problem if the biundaries shift severely according to a therapist's whim.i know therapists are human, but there are ways to do things while minimizing harm. I read so many stories on here where the therapists forget about that and cause further damage.

[SkyscraperMeow]

I think the very fact that so much emphasis is put on boundaries in therapy is both a) indicative of how infantalizing it can be (with the therapist putting in firm rules and explaining them much like you would to a small child) and b) strong evidence for how much power they have.

There's no other relationship where you'd tolerate someone having this many 'boundaries'. In fact, if anyone acted like a therapist did, you'd probably recommend they get therapy! Therapists actually act like prize weirdos most of the time.

I think boundaries are mostly there to keep the therapist sane and separate from clients, and have very little to do with the client's well-being. I think some therapists frame the boundaries as if they're for the client, but I think that a disingenuous lie. For example, the reason why your therapist won't answer ten emails a day isn't because it's bad for you. (It might actually be really therapeutic and useful for you.)It's because they don't have time to do that and trying to would drive them insane. If they were up front about that as a logistical reason for not replying, that would be fine. But framing it as being a 'boundary' there for the 'client' is just nonsense.

[atisketatasket]

I totally have as many boundaries with my students as therapists do with clients. Possibly more. I freely admit they're mostly there for me and my sanity, though it's barf-tastic how many colleagues of mine pretend they're there for the student: "It will enable you to learn best if you call me Professor Jones while I call you by your first name."

Perhaps we're defining boundaries differently, but I don't think therapists are unusual in the number of boundaries they set. Prison guards. Parole officers. Doctors. All of these professions set what I would call boundaries.

I do wish therapists would quit the malarkey about in whose interest the boundaries are, though.

[SkyscraperMeow]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I totally have as many boundaries with my students as therapists do with clients. Possibly more. I freely admit they're mostly there for me and my sanity, though it's barf-tastic how many colleagues of mine pretend they're there for the student: "It will enable you to learn best if you call me Professor Jones while I call you by your first name."

Perhaps we're defining boundaries differently, but I don't think therapists are unusual in the number of boundaries they set. Prison guards. Parole officers. Doctors. All of these professions set what I would call boundaries.

I do wish therapists would quit the malarkey about in whose interest the boundaries are, though.

I have to giggle that the first idea you come up with when comparing boundaries set in various professions to therapists is prison guard .

I have to say though, I've never been made so very well aware of boundaries in any context as in the therapy one. Doctors, teachers, etc, of course there are social norms etc. But I think the boundaries are (for most people) a non issue, because those people don't tend to go out of their way to create and foster what often feels like a very real personal relationship with a patient / student.

Therapists need boundaries because they entice clients to feel close to them by harping on about the importance of the therapy relationship and then slam the door in their faces if they try to act on that feeling of closeness.

Therapy creates cognitive dissonance in spades and puts it all on the client. "We're close, but not close at all. I care about you, but only for this hour. I like you as a person, don't talk to me outside sessions."

Honestly, I think therapists who expect that to be okay are more whacky than any client they might see.

I also think that if therapists spent less time fostering feelings of closeness, the boundaries would be a total non-issue. But a lot of them are very seductive about how they conduct the therapy.