T trouble

The usual post about how to deal with therapists' imperfections, with rhetorical questions:

My therapist talks too much. He seems to think that it is therapy when he talks. As opposed to LISTENING. And I am (literally) afraid to suggest to him he needs to change. I anticipate that he will just talk some more, if I do; just defend himself from what he perceives to be an attack, to justify himself.

Quit? Aha! Of course... And then what? Find another therapist who listens better? Where? How to find one? Do you know lots of therapists who actually know how to distinguish between other people's needs, and their own?

I don't.

My history is that of having a parent who could tolerate no criticism, or even any thing that she interpreted as criticism, or anything I did which threatened her stability in any way whatsoever (such as any attempt at self defense). So just thinking about correcting a therapist or suggesting that he needs to change anything is quite anxiety-producing. To the extent that I mostly become confused when a thought tries to appear which represents even a mild difference with the T.

Nothing new here; I've seen a lot of posts with related themes. I'm not sure I even want any answers; maybe I'm posting mostly to sort out my own thoughts.

What is the best way to get him to LISTEN?

If I were you, I would write him a letter and take it by his office before your next appointment. Be SPECIFIC about what bothers you; "When I try to tell you that I'm feeling this way, you begin telling me how to change that and though I know it's your job to help me, I need to talk, to get this out of the inside of me, and when you talk for so long I can't do that."

Let him know that when people don't listen to you it makes you feel invalidated.

I am going to suggest something that might be uncomfortable for you to hear, and I hope you know I've no intention to hurt your feelings, ok? Is it possible that he talks a lot in an effort to make you more comfortable? Is it possible that he is talking a lot because you have a difficult time talking? If either of these could be true, be sure that you include it in your letter to him.

I'd be open and honest with him. Unlike a parent, if your T can't change his ways, you can always fire him and find another. I know we develop connections with our T's. . .but it doesn't sound like you have a very deep one yet.

Good luck.

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Gracey said:

I am going to suggest something that might be uncomfortable for you to hear, and I hope you know I've no intention to hurt your feelings, ok?

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OK.

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Is it possible that he talks a lot in an effort to make you more comfortable?

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I think he talks a lot in order to make himself more comfortable! What reassures me is the perception that someone is listening.

He actually is a pretty good therapist. Aware, sensitive. Just that I feel the quality of the match between the level of his sensitivity and my insecurity/instabilty is impeding my progress.

What else is new?

ok. . .

now that you are aware of WHY he does it. . .ask him this in your letter, "What about our sessions makes you so uncomfortable?"

Therapy is a *relationship* first and always. Relationships take work. Relationshiops take communication. Talk to him. . .if you are afraid of him "over talking" you and dominating the situation, write a letter. . .be specific in it. ..and drop it off.

I think. . .if he's worth his salt . . .you'll be pleasently surprised with his response.

Pachy. . .if you want some help with a letter, or suggestions to put in it, please feel free to PM me.

> "What about our sessions makes you so uncomfortable?"

Me!

Or my camouflaged expressions of anxiety...

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pachyderm said:
> "What about our sessions makes you so uncomfortable?"

Me!

Or my camouflaged expressions of anxiety...

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Uh huh. . .so you DO hide things. Now. . .think about what that's like for him? Is it possible. . .just possible. . .that he jabber jaws in an attempt to put you more at ease?

You can't "get" him to listen.

You have to state your needs with words. "I need you to listen more." or, if you are talking and thinking and he starts talking but you have more to say, then "I have more to say about that. Please wait."

They are communicators. We must communicate with them, learning as we go. I understand how hard it is, but he will help you with it.

Tell him exactly everything you've said here. He needs to know. He needs your thoughts expressed in words.

let me give you an example that connects with this.

friends paid for me to have three massages....one every week. i have very specific pain issues and massage generally helps me.

the first week that i went, the therapist just started jabbering (my interpetation) away. i raised up my head and said, "i'd rather we not talk right now".......she quit. after all, we're there to work out something...(therapy or massage)...whether it be physical or emotional.....

the second week, she started in on the war!!!! i tried stopping her. it didn't work. i grew extremely tense and left in worse shape than when i got on the table. i don't want to go back. i'm going to gently suggest to her to give my friends a refund. (if she will, if not, i'll go back with earplugs ).

my point is, sometimes we have to speak up and tell someone, who is helping us, what is not helping.....it's our lives. and if this T is as good as you say, he'll halt the talking and begin asking questions and listening.

Gracey had good advice. i'm sharing with you something that has happened to me recently. xoxoxo pat

having had many massages over my lifetime, i've decided that sometimes the person is lonely and they want to make that connection with you. that is well and good (and some people welcome that), but i'm not there for an emotional connection. i am there for the physical, which brings emotional peace to me.

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Gracey said:

Uh huh. . .so you DO hide things. Now. . .think about what that's like for him? Is it possible. . .just possible. . .that he jabber jaws in an attempt to put you more at ease?

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Yes, I hide things. Even from myself. Can you guess why?

Again, I don't think people jabber to put other people at ease. At least, that's hard for me to imagine.

I grew up with a mother of whose hatred I was terribly aware. Especially she hated expressions of (my) weakness or terror. The rest of my family was afraid of her hatred too. Including my father. And other people, seeing you hated, hate you too -- if only to protect themselves. It's easier to take sides with the hater, seen as being in control, than it is to take sides with the hated one, and thus incur wrath too.

I am afraid that my therapist will (be forced to) take sides with the haters, when he discovers what I am really like (small and afraid). Is it possible he will be strong enough not to have to?

Sorry; I am revealing (discovering) a lot.

echoes is right you can't "make" anyone do anything... you aren't responsible for his actions or feelings anymore than you were responsible for your mother's feelings and actions. Sounds like a nice theory though right?

As weird and intimate as the relationship is, you pay him. And you pay him to help you... not to help you help him. The only thing you can do is tell him specifically that you don't feel like he is listening to you, that he is talking more than he should for your needs. Why he does it is irrelevant and deals with HIS stuff... you don't need to go there, and neither should he. If he gets defensive then you have to tell him that it's his stuff, and if he can't separate the two then you need a diffferent therapist.

i'm sorry that is hard and cold as a rock. But the relationship is onesided really and it really IS all about YOU. The one time in your life that it is all about you.

writing a letter is a good way to do it if you are afraid... but please, leave out the prefacing of how you don't want to hurt his feelings... you shouldn't need to preface what you say to your T, if you do then you need to leave instead of writing a letter. Simply state your needs, and what you feel is being done that doesn't address them.

As emotional and gut-wrenching as all this therapy stuff can be for us... it still has it's business side as long as money changes hands. Your T has an obligation to address your needs, or to refer you if he cannot.

if you think about it logically (yeah...i know ) none of us would allow a cardiologist to sort of address the problem. But poor technique, even from an otherwise good T, bites into our own insecurities which sent us into therapy in the first place. Yes?

i mean, that is what i hear... your therapist is doing something that isn't helping but you are afraid to say anything. The fear stems from the issues with your mother and your fear of speaking back... which sent you to therapy. Around and around.

So... you took the step to try to help yourself by going into therapy... take another by taking the risk of saying what it is you need. You were brave once, what harm could twice do? i mean as it is you'll eventually need a T to cope with your T...??

i know. Long on advice, short on doing it myself. Easy to say and all that.

i hope you find a way to find your voice even for a brief moment. If he is good as you say, and sensitive, etc.. then he should immediately recognize your sincerity and pain.

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pachyderm said:

Yes, I hide things. Even from myself. Can you guess why?

Again, I don't think people jabber to put other people at ease. At least, that's hard for me to imagine.

I grew up with a mother of whose hatred I was terribly aware. Especially she hated expressions of (my) weakness or terror. The rest of my family was afraid of her hatred too. Including my father. And other people, seeing you hated, hate you too -- if only to protect themselves. It's easier to take sides with the hater, seen as being in control, than it is to take sides with the hated one, and thus incur wrath too.

I am afraid that my therapist will (be forced to) take sides with the haters, when he discovers what I am really like (small and afraid). Is it possible he will be strong enough not to have to?

Sorry; I am revealing (discovering) a lot.

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Wow this is some really important, insightful stuff. I would suggest going into your next session, telling your T to shut up, and letting him know all of this stuff. Maybe the key to him listening is really revealing yourself, just like you did in this post. The whole point of therapy is the scariest part of therapy-- to reveal the true self, completely raw, every single part-- with this comes the fear of the therapist not accepting the true self. I don't know what you talk about in therapy, but it sure sounds as though you are doing the appropriate work outside of it... How much of what you are telling us here can you bring into session?

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pinksoil said:
Wow this is some really important, insightful stuff. I would suggest going into your next session, telling your T to shut up, and letting him know all of this stuff. Maybe the key to him listening is really revealing yourself, just like you did in this post... How much of what you are telling us here can you bring into session?

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I can probably recreate many of the ideas which I posted here, and tell my therapist, in therapy. It occurs to me, though, that what I need to do is to somehow remember "stuff" from my past, much of which is hidden from me. I create a lot of "ideas" which are quite valuable to me, and are definitely related to my history, but I need to remember actual events. Events that are very frightening to me. That is what I need my therapist to "listen" for.

The fear you have of revealing yourself to your therapist because of your Mum's terrible attitude towards you is a BIG THING, and like the others said a great insight to have. It's only once you go through the experience of not everyone being like your mother that you can really truly believe that it's possible. So addressing all these issues directly with your therapist is important. Do you feel ready to do that? Maybe you need to get to know your therapist better first? Presumably you will have time to go over past issues which you can't remember yet too.

Debbie

Fairly recently I began seeing a new t. It seems she is among those who believe the more they talk the more we will absorb their wisdom and actually change! Oh no, the more a therapist can let me express myself the better off I am...

So I told her. That I need more opportunities to be heard. When she began 'talking'...I said, ''All this doesn't help me. What does help me is if I can express what is going on for me inside'

It seems she has heard me. And is talking less and listening more.

You can always ask for what you want. You may not get it, but you've got nothing to lose by asking.

Sounds like you are experiencing some transference where your therapist is behaving just like your mother behaved. Transference is typically partly about our stuff (your past experiences with your mother) but also partly about present stuff too (his talking so much is the trigger for the transference).

I think that it is possible that your therapist is talking in an attempt to put you at ease. Why do I say that? Because my therapist used to talk a lot too. And I'd feel a bit annoyed with that. Just wished he could shut up, actually, and listen a bit more. Turns out that he was trying to talk in order to prevent what he thought I would perceive to be uncomfortable silences. I told him that I'm alright with silence, though. Now he shuts up a hell of a lot more and said he would sit there in silence with me all session if I would find that helpful.

Might be that your therapist isn't so sure what to do. I guess the only way they know is if... We can somehow... Find the courage to ask / tell them.

Letters / emails can be a whole heap easier than talking. Sounds like a considerable risk (that your mother was unable to receive well). Will he be a good therapist for you??? Depends how he responds to your disclosure, I guess (will he respond similarly or show you that he is stronger than that???)

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withit said:
You can always ask for what you want. You may not get it, but you've got nothing to lose by asking.

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Of course that is the problem. With my mother, I had plenty to lose by asking. I obviously still anticipate the same.

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pinksoil said:

Wow this is some really important, insightful stuff.

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I "forgot" (no accidents) to say "thanks."

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alexandra_k said:
Sounds like you are experiencing some transference where your therapist is behaving just like your mother behaved.

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Of course. He doesn't behave "just like my mother" but I guess there are enough similarities to trigger me.

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I think that it is possible that your therapist is talking in an attempt to put you at ease.

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I can see (now) that it is possible, but I don't think it is the case. I think he feels the need to control the situation (me). And I am reacting as though that desire to control is dangerous. Which it isn't, most likely.

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Might be that your therapist isn't so sure what to do. I guess the only way they know is if... We can somehow... Find the courage to ask / tell them.

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Indeed.

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ECHOES said:
You can't "get" him to listen.

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I need some way to influence him to listen. Some way. Somehow. Otherwise there isn't much hope.

It is very scary for me to try to balance finding some way to influence him with my already present fears. My mother would (it seems) always find some way to detect that I was trying to influence her, and react with fury.

> I think he feels the need to control the situation (me).

And it sounds as though you felt like your mother did things like that in order to control you :-(

I guess... That it is possible that your therapist feels the need to control you. But I guess... That it is possible that your therapist doesn't feel the need to control you, but that instead you are afraid that your therapist does need to control you (which is understandable given your past history with your mother).

The past... The present... The past... The present... I have a hard time figuring out which is which sometimes and figuring out whether my responses / reactions are appropriate responses to the past and / or the past and the present... It can be so hard sometimes...

> And I am reacting as though that desire to control is dangerous. Which it isn't, most likely.

I guess... There are times that controling another might be kind of necessary (making someone get out of a burning building, for example). Not letting someone get lost in the past which would be retraumatising and hence taking care not maintain an appropriate environment within a theraputic window, as another example. But then... I guess we don't know whether your therapist has the desire to control you or not (you would have to ask...) And even if he was... We don't know why unless you ask...

How does it feel when you think that he is trying to control you?

Do you feel mad?

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alexandra_k said:
How does it feel when you think that he is trying to control you?

Do you feel mad?

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In a session I usually don't realize what my thoughts are. Later I react to what happened. Sometimes I feel angry then. Sometimes I can work through my anger or other feelings and then do not feel angry or confused. But then I regress again to confusion and fear. And the cycle starts over.

It does appear that I am making progress. The depth of confusion is less over time, and I am able to work through it again. Until it returns...

One way to help him listen might be to talk more? :-) I don't know how much you talk but my T and I had the "opposite" problem in that she didn't talk "enough" and we'd get really awkward silences for long periods of time (since she, "rightly" believed it was my therapy and I was the one who was supposed to do most of the talking) and I'd get stuck. We were able to talk about it later (I saw this therapist for a total of 18 years) when I was able to talk more and she told me some of the troubles therapists have with trying to figure out how much to talk and how much to keep quiet, etc. When I thought about it I actually felt sorry for T's having to figure out delicate/complicated stuff like that :-)

If you are afraid he'll argue, I think you have to check that out by "confronting" him in a "nice" way -- using "I" phrases and saying how you feel and what your perceptions are of him talking too much. The only way you can see that not all people react like your mother is to check other people out individually and that's exactly what T's are for. "It feels to me like I don't talk as much as you do and I don't know how to work on or change that so I feel more listened to" something like that?

Thanks, gerber. (I'm re-reading this.)