We talk about this a lot so i'd like to share. Obviously-but stating for conversation-just because someone is a therapist, this does not mean their boundaries are healthy.

personally, I don't see these as behaviors as much as I see them as being related to sense of self. That is one of the things I look for in a therapist as healthy boundaries are a result of a healthy sense of self. And for me, depth therapy, seeing how i relate to others, put my own boundaries under a microscope; it was easy to see things that were causing problems for myself, even if it was the other person 'doing' something and I needed to stop engaging.

Healthy boundaries are NOT:

• Set for us by others
• Hurtful or harmful
• Controlling or manipulative
• Invasive or dominating
• Rigid and immovable

Healthy boundaries ARE:

• present
• appropriate
• clear
• firm
• protective
• flexible
• receptive
• determined by US

Boundaries and Relationships: Knowing, Protecting and Enjoying the Self by Charles L. Whitfield ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

(I never read this book so i have no opinion on it-I just like the short, concise summary quoted above.)

[unaluna]

Ive read 3 of Anne Katherine's earlier books, about boundaries and self sabotage. I loooooove her. The boundary books scared the poop out of me - i was like, no way could i do that! But i knew i needed to. I think i do now. I should reread them and see where i think i stand.

I think this thread is a good idea. It seems like we on pc too often get boundaries used against us by our ts. But i do really believe, being allowed to have, to claim your own boundaries is something we were deprived of. It should have been part of our growing up. But its hard to see a lack of something.

[Out There]

Good thread and I've had to work on this a lot. My T's have very good boundaries. I like the idea it's related to the sense of self. One of my favourite quotes is " a healthy ego keeps it's nose out of other people's business "

[lucozader]

Yeah, those seem like good descriptions to me!

I think the most important thing as far as boundaries are concerned in therapy, is that they're discussed and made clear at the beginning of the relationship. Both therapist and client need to have their boundaries respected, and this is only going to happen if both parties have a clear understanding of each others'. In my experience things can go terribly wrong when one person transgresses a boundary that they didn't know existed, or when boundaries seem to be suddenly and drastically changed some time into therapy.

Ideally, both parties should sign a contract at the start of therapy that lays all this out. The specifics of the relationship that is being entered into should be understood by everyone. It's informed consent, same as they do for medical procedures...

[lucozader]

I do find 'healthy boundaries are not set by others' to be a bit confusing actually, because what if you're impinging upon another person's boundaries? They should get to set the boundary of, for example 'you are not allowed to touch me', even if technically that's imposing a boundary upon you...

[unaluna]

Its like going to an Ethiopian restaurant and finding out, no forks, no spoons! Use a pita! Use your fingers! or like they sang in South Pacific "You have to be carefully taught". Its not "instinct"!

[Yellowbuggy]

Great thread. Thanks for posting this.

I agree that not all boundaries are healthy, and not all therapists use them properly. But I am confused by the first two items. Can you help me understand?

HEALTHY BOUNDARIES ARE NOT SET FOR US BY OTHERS.
My T set a boundary that he does not allow email communication between sessions. This was communicated to me in the beginning of our work and has never been a problem. I see this as a healthy boundary, even though it was set for me by another who was setting a boundary for himself. What am I missing?

HEALTHY BOUNDARIES ARE NOT HURTFUL OR HARMFUL.
Sometimes my T sets boundaries that cause me to feel emotionally hurt. By not allowing email communication between sessions, for example, I may feel uncared for. By ending sessions at exactly 50 min I may feel like nothing more than a number to him, which hurts. In this sense, these boundaries are hurtful - but I don't think they're unhealthy. Is this what you meant by hurtful?

Also, I find that different people often react in different ways to the same situation. One person may be "hurt" by something another says or does, whereas another person in the exact same situation will not be. In this sense I think it's hard to define a boundary as healthy or unhealthy by the reaction the individual will have to it. Does that make sense? I think I may be overthinking this...

I know that works for some, but we don't do it that way in my therapy or my last therapy. We do it more naturally and address things as they come up.

Negotiating boundaries is sort of a experiential learning experience for me, and it's been useful to me. Outside of therapy, people don't usually agree in advance of how they relate. That's why I favor the way my therapist does it. I know the way you described it is more common than the way we do it in my therapy, but it's not the only way and not necessarily the best way for everyone.

Originally Posted by lucozader

Yeah, those seem like good descriptions to me!

I think the most important thing as far as boundaries are concerned in therapy, is that they're discussed and made clear at the beginning of the relationship. Both therapist and client need to have their boundaries respected, and this is only going to happen if both parties have a clear understanding of each others'. In my experience things can go terribly wrong when one person transgresses a boundary that they didn't know existed, or when boundaries seem to be suddenly and drastically changed some time into therapy.

Ideally, both parties should sign a contract at the start of therapy that lays all this out. The specifics of the relationship that is being entered into should be understood by everyone. It's informed consent, same as they do for medical procedures...

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy

I find that different people often react in different ways to the same situation. One person may be "hurt" by something another says or does, whereas another person in the exact same situation will not be. In this sense I think it's hard to define a boundary as healthy or unhealthy by the reaction the individual will have to it. Does that make sense? I think I may be overthinking this...

That does make sense, I think it's a really good point. There's no objective definition of 'hurtful or harmful' so it seems impossible that a boundary will never be so. Using my previous example - I might really, really want to touch someone (my T, for example, ahem), but their boundary forbids me from doing it. I might feel hurt and harmed by not being allowed to touch them. Does that mean their boundary is unhealthy? Surely not.

I feel so much more clear on this than I used to be. You can't control the other person. The way i see it is the boundary is always for yourself-not the other person, regardless of what the other person does.

If another person is impinging on me, it's up to me to establish my boundary and take action. I could cut the person off if need be, not answer their call, call the police, etc.

This is where i see lots of problems. People can't automatically know your boundaries. I made so many mistakes by not asserting myself or saying no to little things that all add up to being taken advantage of in the end. I'm not talking about children here.

I've complained about people crossing my boundary, but in truth, I didn't do anything about it or wasn't assertive enough so I can't blame anyone but myself for continuing to let it happen, as I got enmeshed with the other person.

Negotiating boundaries i think is an interpersonal skill.

Thanks for your posts by the way.

Originally Posted by lucozader

I do find 'healthy boundaries are not set by others' to be a bit confusing actually, because what if you're impinging upon another person's boundaries? They should get to set the boundary of, for example 'you are not allowed to touch me', even if technically that's imposing a boundary upon you...

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Skies

Outside of therapy, people don't usually agree in advance of how they relate.

Yes, but the therapeutic relationship is not like any other relationship. That's why I think it's so important that those differences are made clear.

I'm glad the way you do things works for you - my opinion is of course just my opinion. I guess what I feel is that whilst that way of doing things is obviously doing you good, it might be very harmful to others. But then that could be said of anything I suppose - as I've just said, there is no objective definition...

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Its like going to an Ethiopian restaurant and finding out, no forks, no spoons! Use a pita! Use your fingers! or like they sang in South Pacific "You have to be carefully taught". Its not "instinct"!

It isn't pita bread - it is injera

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Skies

I feel so much more clear on this than I used to be. You can't control the other person. The way i see it is the boundary is always for yourself-not the other person, regardless of what the other person does.

If another person is impinging on me, it's up to me to establish my boundary and take action. I could cut the person off if need be, not answer their call, call the police, etc.

This is where i see lots of problems. People can't automatically know your boundaries. I made so many mistakes by not asserting myself or saying no to little things that all add up to being taken advantage of in the end. I'm not talking about children here.

I've complained about people crossing my boundary, but in truth, I didn't do anything about it or wasn't assertive enough so I can't blame anyone but myself for continuing to let it happen, as I got enmeshed with the other person.

Negotiating boundaries i think is an interpersonal skill.

That makes a lot of sense to me, thank you. I guess when it comes to that space where people's boundaries clash I start to get a bit confused as to what's meant to happen! But people with healthy boundaries will likely also have the ability to assert those boundaries. I guess that's an important part of it.

Here's a good one:

12 Signs You Lack Healthy Boundaries (and Why You Need Them) - Harley Therapy? Counselling Blog

Because of my cluelessness about negotiating boundaries, I used to get entangled with sociopathic people or people who couldn't see me as a separate person, getting into these strange situations where i allowed myself to be used as an object, an extension of the other person.

It really freaks me out thinking back about this. I wasn't bullied by other kids as a child, so it always confused me how I ended up letting adults bully me in work relationships.

I always feared 'telling on them', so I tried to manage it myself, trying to appease them, thinking they leave me alone if i gave them what they want, instead of drawing a line and saying 'this is unacceptable'; if that didn't work, I could have went to my boss. Because i was trying to appease them in my fear, i wasn't assertive enough. Then they'd get worse and trample me. uggh

I realized later it relates to my brother torturing me, the fear of telling on him. I never had concrete memories, so not having that context made things 10 times harder for me.

Only years later am i realizing this.

Originally Posted by lucozader

That does make sense, I think it's a really good point. There's no objective definition of 'hurtful or harmful' so it seems impossible that a boundary will never be so. Using my previous example - I might really, really want to touch someone (my T, for example, ahem), but their boundary forbids me from doing it. I might feel hurt and harmed by not being allowed to touch them. Does that mean their boundary is unhealthy? Surely not.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Skies

Here's a good one:
12 Signs You Lack Healthy Boundaries (and Why You Need Them) - Harley Therapy? Counselling Blog

I found that really interesting, thanks for sharing it - and thank you for sharing some of your personal experience. I'm sorry it took you so long to work out what was going on for you there - but glad that you did in the end.

It turns out, actually, having read that article, that I most definitely lack healthy boundaries myself. To be honest it's not specifically something I've thought a lot about before, at least not outside of how it applies in therapy. I wonder if that's why I feel so strongly about clear and inflexible boundaries in therapy - because that's not something I experienced growing up and not something I've been able to assert for myself in the past.

ETA: Oh dear, I'm properly going on a roller-coaster of insight now... My mother was very unpredictable. I never quite knew what the boundaries were. It was painful for me. I couldn't stand for my therapist to be that way too... although I often project that stuff onto him, I think...

I know. It's like people don't talk about this stuff-it seems to happen naturally with people who were raised good.

A few things stood out there for me, like getting irritated and complaining about things. This is more extreme but related-I've seen my mother spend almost her entire life raging and complaining to others about her situation and crying victim-but after it happens once, twice...she was the one letting it happen. Things can be complicated like with domestic violence etc, i don't mean that. It was really sad, and I lost patience for sympathizing with her. I guess i wasn't as clueless about boundaries as I thought as I used to tell her to quit doing x if it made her so unhappy. No once forced her to.

Originally Posted by lucozader

I found that really interesting, thanks for sharing it - and thank you for sharing some of your personal experience. I'm sorry it took you so long to work out what was going on for you there - but glad that you did in the end.

It turns out, actually, having read that article, that I most definitely lack healthy boundaries myself. To be honest it's not specifically something I've thought a lot about before, at least not outside of how it applies in therapy. I wonder if that's why I feel so strongly about clear and inflexible boundaries in therapy - because that's not something I experienced growing up and not something I've been able to assert for myself in the past.

ETA: Oh dear, I'm properly going on a roller-coaster of insight now... My mother was very unpredictable. I never quite knew what the boundaries were. It was painful for me. I couldn't stand for my therapist to be that way too... although I often project that stuff onto him, I think...

^ Yes, i have only recently thought about some of this stuff too!! Also people not making their boundaries clear than raging when someone crosses it. A common example in my childhood was my father's boundary of not being disturbed when he was working. Well he worked 7 days a week..and it could be computer, reading, or physical work as he did many things. Expecting a 4 year old to be able discern when a parent is working, when it is ok or not ok to talk is unreasonable and harmful. Like being raged upon for crossing that boundary by asking for a glass or water. Reasonable and flexible would be not prohibiting a young child from merely talking; instead, telling a child they are not allowed to play the drumset when my father is home, for example. For most of childhood, I was only noticed by my father if i crossed a boundary, otherwise, completely ignored.

Originally Posted by Yellowbuggy

HEALTHY BOUNDARIES ARE NOT SET FOR US BY OTHERS.
My T set a boundary that he does not allow email communication between sessions. This was communicated to me in the beginning of our work and has never been a problem. I see this as a healthy boundary, even though it was set for me by another who was setting a boundary for himself. What am I missing?

The way i see it, since you asked for another viewpoint-the boundary is not 'set for you'. That is his boundary. It's up to you to decide if you want him to impose his will on you and how you will react. Likewise, you can set a boundary with him to not email you for scheduling changes, and instead text you or call you.

Sometimes my T sets boundaries that cause me to feel emotionally hurt. By not allowing email communication between sessions, for example, I may feel uncared for. By ending sessions at exactly 50 min I may feel like nothing more than a number to him, which hurts. In this sense, these boundaries are hurtful - but I don't think they're unhealthy. Is this what you meant by hurtful?

If you were disclosing trauma and you were in the middle of a sentence at the exact ending of the session, being rigid and inflexible would be cutting you off in mid sentence to end the session at the exact time. Unless there was a fire in the building, cutting you off like that in mid-sentence is acting like an a s s hole, not implementing good boundaries. Flexible and reasonable would be allowing 10-20 seconds for you to end your thought. A person with healthy boundaries would make exceptions here and there.

On the other side of things, people pleasing-a therapist might fear upsetting someone or being rejected by a client quitting and let them go on past the end of session rather than help wrap things up. Then the clients afterwards might start to get upset; a client quits and the therapist blames that client quitting on the client rather than himself for letting it go on. It ends up being destructive and causing resentment, when meanwhile, the therapist did nothing about it and let it go on all that time...until something happened, then blamed the other person who was oblivious to the time and kept talking. This is how things seem to play out here at times.

In this sense I think it's hard to define a boundary as healthy or unhealthy by the reaction the individual will have to it. Does that make sense? I think I may be overthinking this...

Yes, it makes sense. It's obviously not math or an exact science, but I think when you have a healthy sense of self these things aren't confusing, and interpersonal skill/good judgment around these things comes naturally.

[stopdog]

It would seem to me, if the therapist publishes or otherwise makes an email address public, that whether to write or not belongs to the client and whether to answer or how or not at all belongs to the therapist. I don't see the boundary as what the client can or cannot do with info the therapist has made available belonging to anyone but the client. The therapist's boundary is in their own response or lack thereof.

[Yellowbuggy]

Originally Posted by Skies

The way i see it, since you asked for another viewpoint-the boundary is not 'set for you'. That is his boundary. It's up to you to decide if you want him to impose his will on you and how you will react. Likewise, you can set a boundary with him to not email you for scheduling changes, and instead text you or call you.

I understand what you mean now. I think the issue was semantics. I agree that our boundaries are not set for us by others (i.e: my mother does not decide what my boundaries are, I DO), but while we are impacted by boundaries that others define for themselves, we choose whether or not we want to work within them. To use the email example, my T has every right to choose not to allow email communication between sessions with his clients. However, if email communication between sessions is important to me, I can choose to find another T that offers this.

Originally Posted by Skies

If you were disclosing trauma and you were in the middle of a sentence at the exact ending of the session, being rigid and inflexible would be cutting you off in mid sentence to end the session at the exact time. Unless there was a fire in the building, cutting you off like that in mid-sentence is acting like an a s s hole, not implementing good boundaries. Flexible and reasonable would be allowing 10-20 seconds for you to end your thought. A person with healthy boundaries would make exceptions here and there.

I completely agree with this. Rigid inflexibility for the purpose of holding a boundary is short-sighted.

[atisketatasket]

What if the boundary is touch? The client asks for a hug. The therapist doesn't hug clients. Being flexible there is a lot more complicated and might have less desirable results than adding an extra minute or two at the end of a session.

I'm guessing this book deals with personal relationships, not professional ones? Because I do think the question of boundaries is a bit different in each.

Lucozader mention that earlier, too. I also agree personal vs professional can be different, but I don't think it's much different. If a therapist has problems with boundaries, you might realize you shouldn't take trauma clients if your issue can cause harm. Or do depth therapy. You'd also be aware of your limitations more than in personal relationships.

Imo, I don't think it's a good idea for a therapist to do touch (or other things) if they are uncomfortable with it, even if it hurts the client. Being flexible is not sacrificing yourself; your values...if you do that sort of sacrifice, it could cause harm in the end-these things blow up. And i really believe if you have a healthy sense of self, it is easier to make these decisions.

Healthy people also make mistakes. That's part of interpersonal skills. How you handle mistakes, mitigate the fall out. You might offer touch and realize you made a mistake and have to take it away. You might even lose a client over it. Trial and error is a big part of learning i think. One of the reasons I go with experienced therapist is to avoid this kind of trial and error stuff.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Skies

Obviously-but stating for conversation-just because someone is a therapist, this does not mean their boundaries are healthy.

I would add that even if a therapist has healthy boundaries personally, it does not mean the boundaries they manufacture in therapy are necessarily healthy or serve the client.

I also agree personal vs professional can be different, but I don't think it's much different.

Thought about this topic off and on throughout the day and am sort of taking back what I said here.

A person's boundaries might be applied differently with family, children, friends, military, coworkers, judges, clients, patients, and any other group or situation. I think the same concepts apply.

Interesting topic and thread! I just would like to add something that always comes to my mind whenever I think about boundaries... my own. I think that I have quite good and healthy boundaries when I am mentally in an okay place, but when it's not the case, I sometimes fluctuate between extremes with it, too loose with select people close to me and too strong with the rest of the world. Either too open (less frequently) or overly guarded/inaccessible (more often). So I like to remind myself of something that's important for me: there is a distinction between good boundaries and building walls. Balance is key as in most things, and I like when a therapist has a similarly keen sense of this and individually tailored strategies.

I generally think of boundaries on as they relate to myself/my own. If I keep healthy boundaries, my life is so much less stressful.

I had healthy boundaries described this way once. A healthy boundary is not a wall, it's a high fence with a gate that I control as needed. I can see through the fence, over the fence, etc. I can put spikes on the top of the fence or electrify it if I want to. I can lock that gate if need be. But I can open up that gate for freer movement as needed and still have the ability to close the gate if the open movement becomes a problem.

Everyone around me also has their own fence and gate (ideally) that they can work the same way. I have to realize they have the right to decide how to work their gate where I am concerned and I must respect that right as I would want them to respect my choices about how to work my own gate.

No one has the right to try to get into my fence without my permission, to try to climb over or dig under no matter how much they want to. I cannot do that to others either no matter how much I want into their fence.

Seems simplistic, but it was a good, concrete visual for me that made sense.