Experiencing it...

Talking in T today about how I have just realised that she isn't going to "take" away my feelings. She smiled and said, "not going to do magic" LOL and I said "yeah I see that now, but give me a while to get over the relisation" LOL.

Toward the end of the session I had gone into myself and was letting my eyes wonder her books and she asked me where I had gone?

When she said that I realised I was not with her, I'm in the room, but sitting the edge.

I told her this, I said that I'm never with you, I'm always on the edge, she asked if that felt safe? I replied, yeah, yeah it does.

I told her that I've read books about intimacy and fear of it and thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that I know that, but I said I've never really experienced that within me, never let myelf feel what it feels like to be on the edge, afraid, and never let myeslf experience what a real connection would feel like to me..

Not long after that the session was over, surprise, surprise LOL, but I felt I took a very causious step "in" toward T by saying that.

Now I feel this need inside to experience what connecting intimately would really feel like, I think there isn't so much to be scared of now.

Next time you're sifting through thoughts to tell T, instead of rejecting one of the scary ones; imagine your T is sitting next to you (I use to picture a wooden bench :-) as if she were a good friend. I didn't realize that my default was "across" from me like a teacher would be so there was the whole right/wrong, good/bad, thing going on. Imagining my T cared and was next to me, just listening with compassion, etc. made it much easier to tell her scary things and gave me the warm fuzzies because her responses confirmed that's sort of how it "is". Made me feel much more connected and I could see better how we were working "together".

I still don't get how one can reach intimacy with a T when there is the client/therapist boundarys. I mean T isnt into self-discloser, so how does one bridge the "gap"? what do you talk about?

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Now I feel this need inside to experience what connecting intimately would really feel like

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I'm kinda here too but I won't actually admit it to people to whom I could actually experience it with. I am so fearful of admitting that I actually care about something or that I actually want (maybe even need) something on a deeper level. Shoot, I don't really even know what I'm looking for! I have like craving something but I have no idea what it is, so I can't really find it. Who knows maybe I already have it and just don know it or appreciate it.

The perfect scenario for me would be: I would go to therapy, she would say... I heard all of your crap for the past several months... Hey this is what you are looking for... here is how you do it...how about you practice feeling it with me until you feel comfortable and feel like you know how to handle it...(turn it on an off when you want to).... and then when you ready... here is what you do to experience this with the people who are your real friends and family.

I would then say...Thank you very much.. can I come back in two weeks and you can show me how to get my 10 yr old to happily do his homework. (Sorry, I digress)

I don't think my therapist is going to give me anything directly. Other than maybe some insight on what it is I'm looking for and then maybe some skills or ideas on how to get it.

At this point I see myself as looking over the fence at a big piece of fruit hanging on a tree. I'm thinking.. other people are eating it, their not dying, and they seem to like it, ...maybe it might be good for me to eat too. I'm willing to sniff the air for some more clues about what it might taste like....BUT, unfortunately, I am unwilling to take a chance or don't know how to get over the fence, reach up to take it from the tree ...and am definitely not ready to actually taste it.

Having said all this I forget what this thread was actually about... I sorry if you've hung with me through my rambling... my brain is fried its.. Friday.

Everyone discloses themselves just by "being" themselves. Hasn't your T ever said/done something that made you feel protective of her or made you want to chuckle? The words we say aren't "us" it's the whole package and letting one see one's foibles, etc. T's have foibles too, just like everyone else :-) That's what we're "learning"/trying to pattern ourselves after, the way they "are". You know the looks she gives you and how you know what they mean, etc.? That's something personal between the two of you! She doesn't give every client "that" look; that's your look! All the ways of being and things you unconsciously notice about her and ways you say certain things and not others because you "know" her and how she will respond :-) Just like one would with a good mother or good friend, etc., kind of knowing what they'd say or do, how they think.

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Mouse_ said:
I still don't get how one can reach intimacy with a T when there is the client/therapist boundarys. I mean T isnt into self-discloser, so how does one bridge the "gap"? what do you talk about?

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Mouse, to me, your posts have always made it seem as if you and your T are intimate, so it surprises me to read that you think you are not. Are you sure?

Having an intimate relationship with my T has allowed me to have a greater degree of connection in some of the other relationships in my life. It has also made me realize I will not settle for zero connection and intimacy in my marriage, and this has made it easier to divorce.

I think the client/therapist boundaries just provide a secure frame, but don't prevent intimacy. The boundaries allow you to always know where you stand. Even if your T doesn't self disclose, you have give and take in your interaction, the sharing of feelings and thoughts, and jokes and special moments. Tears, laughter. You don't need self-disclosure to have all this.

mckell, I like your "perfect scenario." Why don't you share that with your T?

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can I come back in two weeks and you can show me how to get my 10 yr old to happily do his homework.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">LOL, I can so relate to this! Mine would be, "can you tell me how to get my 13 year old out of bed in the mornings and ready for school without her being incredibly grumpy and mean to me, all in time not to miss the bus so I don't get mad at her and end up having to drive her to school, be late to work, and start the day in a bad mood?"

Perna, I liked what you wrote about the bench and sitting side by side with your T. I went to the doctor earlier this week, and she sat right next to me as she read through all the reports of various diagnostic tests on me. She kept sitting side by side as we discussed the results and possible treatments. I felt really close to her, and it was good. It reminded me of a couple of sessions ago with T, how I went over to his couch and sat down next to him for a few minutes (so we could look at my book cover proofs together). That felt really good. I like the side by side.

Mouse,

It sounds like you are ready to take a big leap.

I have major issues with intimacy and have just gotten to the point where I can talk somewhat without shame. Intimacy, true intimacy, has yet to come.

Perna, do you really notice stuff like this when sitting on the couch in therapy? Do you really notice this stuff when chatting with your friends and family members too? If so I likely I would find you kinda scary to talk with in person.

Although I am starting to like my T… honestly I’m not sure if I’d recognize her in a crowd. This post has now got me thinking…what in the hell do I look at when I am there? …I know the couch is a really ugly floral pattern. %#@&#!, I can only imagine what kind of foibles she’s been picking up.

Uh oh… your comments have triggered a cascade of thoughts... I am really stupid. Maybe this is why I don't feel emotionally intimate with people, 'cause I'm missing most of what is going on during a conversation! Although at times I get upset about feeling like I am out of the loop, maybe in reality I am quite comfortable being clueless. Could this be yet another defensive mechanism? Maybe I really don’t want intimacy. It’s the ‘what you don’t know can’t hurt you’ defense.

Hmm..I will need to reflect on this for a while.

I haven't really looked at T for a long while...I'm just plain to scared to look at her when in the room, theres like an invisible barrier that prevents me doing that, unyet I know there is so much healing to be had if I did..

I now and again look her right in the eye, but then get to scared and retreat...

I notice when I am talking about me and her and not other things, that she tends to posture her body toward me on the side of her chair..I then think, oh right this is the stuff I am supposed to be talking about..

Mouse said:

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I then think, oh right this is the stuff I am supposed to be talking about..

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Is there a "supposed to" in therapy?

I mean, I suppose the goal is to work our trauma through the relationship but is there really a "supposed to when it comes to topics?"

I was thinking this morning about how my experience of therapy has evolved. I recall sessions about six months ago and in my memory the furniture is even a little different. At times T was moving around the room (not really, just in my memory or my experience in the moment). I literally couldn't hold on to him even in that moment. He even faded away on me a couple of times so I felt alone in the room.

This week I noticed a painting and asked T if it had always been there and he said yes. We talked about it a little bit. I feel in a way I am just waking up?

So, is intimacy something that can be measured? I think of it as something that develops, like a continuum of connections.

Hmmmmmm. Methinks I need to journal right now.

Good post Sister, yes it is like a waking up. My use of the word "should" was really meant to mean, "oh this is where I need to be moving toward now", so yes I agree there are no shoulds.

But I like the waking up, its like a waking up at a deeper and deeper level that there is another humanbeing in the room and not just a object, but seeing her as an object has served its purpose up till now.

Now I think I need another humanbeing to relate too.

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sister said:
I recall sessions about six months ago and in my memory the furniture is even a little different.

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We were in borrowed spaces and sometimes the therapist whose room we used most of the time needed it (or hadn't cleaned it enough; she was a packrat and the room only felt like 3' x 3' and I think she was writing a book or something :-) and we'd have to use the "Director's" room which was way fancy with huge windows overlooking the lake which the chairs faced away from :-(

Anyway, one night as I was going to sleep I'm "comparing" the two rooms and realized for the first time (in like 5-6 years) that T had a "real" lounge chair w/footstool in the Director's office and a cheap, sharp, metal-armed chair in "our" room and had to put her feet up on another such chair (while I got a La-Z-Boy) and I was much distressed and was telling her this at a session; I think when we were in the Director's room, how I preferred that room because she got a good seat, etc. and she was "fascinated" and wanted to know what details I thought of/remembered about the other room and then we checked them out later.

I always make the room my friend :-) and get comfortable in the room, know what is where so there are no surprises. I was suprised by elephants one week leaving :-) early in the first year I saw T and wrote a whole poem about that. There were all these different elephants playing in different positions on a shelf, http://loletashomedecor.com/library/20591.jpg maybe 4-5 of them, and I'd never "seen" them before and I couldn't understand how I could have missed them.

I am definitely going to have to be more observant when I go next time. I wonder how many things they put in their office just to see if you notice them. I am definitely going to pay more attention to her body language and unspoken communication.

mckell, Thats all I have done for the past 3 yrs, take in every detail of "THE ROOM" LOL, I even no where something has been disturbed LOL!, perhaps I should start studying how disturbed I am? LOL,

Mouse, LOL ...No, that would mean being too intimate with yourself.
This would break my "what I don't know won't hurt me" rule. I'm visualizing the three monkeys--see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil..

Here's a cute story for you. My grandmother had nicknacks of these monkey's in her bathroom. One day while on a Sunday visit I said to her, "Grandmom, where is the fourth monkey?" She was like what dear? I said, "My dad said you lost the fourth one that had its hands crossed-- the have no fun monkey!" Needless to say I heard it in the car on the way home.

LOL McKell that story is precious.

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sister said:This week I noticed a painting and asked T if it had always been there and he said yes. We talked about it a little bit. I feel in a way I am just waking up?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I had that exact experience once, sister. One time in session I walked in the room and noticed this display of colorful scarves hanging on hooks on the wall. All colors of the rainbow. I commented and T said those had always been there. Where had I been!? We talked about it for a while. I think in the early days of therapy, it was so intense and we were working on past trauma, that I was really self absorbed and not quite aware of my surroundings. Being able to notice the scarves to me meant I was a bit less traumatized and on a more even keel.

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Is there a "supposed to" in therapy?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I immediately thought this same question when I read what Mouse wrote! I think it is a pretty profound question. Who chooses the path in therapy? Is there a "right" way and a "wrong" way to a goal? Or are there many paths that will get you to the destination? Or many dead ends that T can see in advance, even if I can't?

I remember a few weeks ago, I became bothered by putting my drink on his end table and was searching for coasters and ended up playing with a puzzle box that resembled coasters and that T helped me disassemble. Well, after that session, I noticed that T now had a coaster on his table! He had never had one before. Ha, ha, I haven't used it.

Ok I'm sorry I said "SHOULD" LOL!!!!