[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

Isn't a therapy relationship one of the few relationships where you have the chance to explore exactly where you stand?

It seems like it should be... I suppose Dr. T did confirm that I'm not a burden today, in response to one of my questions. But then it's a business relationship, so...I don't know.

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

So they say—but it’s not where you stand with the therapist, it’s where you stand with the people that the therapist symbolizes.

A relationship with the therapist is not the goal of the therapy.


I always need more cake.

By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.

Ditto.

(8 characters)

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.

Can you explain more what you mean? Like, about the alignment in the therapeutic relationship?

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Copying/pasting from the Couch:
Today's session was really rough, like rupture territory. I don't know if it's fixable or not. He said that he doesn't like having to respond to client emails, that he'd rather not do it. When he's been doing that for me for 3 years. And I said how before he'd said he considered it a part of his job. And he said (today), "We all have parts of our job that we'd rather not have to do." He said he's willing to do it for me. But would prefer not to have to in general.

Note that I'm fully aware that many T's don't do email. But this has been an agreement since the beginning that we've discussed multiple times. He never said he wished he didn't have to do it. Just that he charges for longer ones (or if I sent a whole bunch of short ones), which I accepted. The vast majority of time, he didn't charge me (even when he said it took him >15 minutes). So feel sort of deceived. And it's also very reminiscent of stuff that happened with ex-T and ex-MC regarding email, so it's particularly triggering.

And he said this is why I need to be relying on other people in my life. Because I'm never going to be satisfied with the boundaries in the therapeutic relationship.

And he also confirmed that he'd be less supportive and accepting once Covid starts going away. And would push me more. And that he knows it will be hard for me.

Plus some other stuff. Like my bringing up how he seems to get uncomfortable any time I bring up the inner child stuff, and he questioned what I meant. And I said he seemed visibly uncomfortable, always tried to use other language for it, shift the topic to something else, etc. That there's a lot I want to explore with that, but I feel I can't because of his reactions.

So...I don't know if it's fixable or not. I really appreciate all the support he's giving me during Covid. I seriously doubt many therapists would allow sessions this frequent or...well, I was going to say allow outside contact. Which I guess he does, but he just doesn't like it.

And now it also sort of feels like his greater compassion and support during Covid is just an act.

So...I think I'm at least going to look at some other T's, maybe contact a couple, have free 15-minute consults for ones that allow that. I think I need a T with a different method of working. And probably a female.

Do you think you are repeating the pattern you had last year about this time?

Do you think he is also dealing with exhaustion from the whole COVID thing. I have read multiple articles about therapists being careful not burnout. IIRC, your T charges for emails so that he doesn't resent them. But he is trying to offer you more support and emails without charge. Do you think he in an attempt to help clients more he failed to take care of himself?

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by unaluna

You guys know i watched dr phil the other day. He had a hoarder mom on who had a 12 yr old kid, and the womans parents, ie the grandparents. The grandparents were out to lunch! "We didnt know anything bad happened to her!"

Anyway, dr phil says, your house is what your head looks like inside - trash, junk. I was like, yep, exactly. Some people might overcompensate like with gold toilets ( ) others of us project. Theres no room for me here, only room for trash. But i pay the g.d. rent, how is that fair??

Anyway, just saying, it was hard to hear from dr phil of all people. But he was describing the woman's relationship with her abusers, and with her parents who never acknowledged the abuse. Also my family's attitude towards me.

I don't want to derail LT's thread, but have you read the book Stuff by Randy Frost and Gail Steketee? It describes several people who hoard and gets into the way their backgrounds contribute to their hoarding patterns. It's a fascinating book.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Do you think you are repeating the pattern you had last year about this time?

Do you think he is also dealing with exhaustion from the whole COVID thing. I have read multiple articles about therapists being careful not burnout. IIRC, your T charges for emails so that he doesn't resent them. But he is trying to offer you more support and emails without charge. Do you think he in an attempt to help clients more he failed to take care of himself?

Thanks. I strongly suspect he may be at least approaching burnout. Aside from one day off, he's been generally working 5-6 days a week since the end of February (the last time he took a week off). And he's said that pretty much all of his clients are doing worse with the pandemic. And he's allowing the increased contact thing for everyone. So I imagine he's somewhat overwhelmed, plus his own struggles with it.

Plus I know he's had some financial stress, as he rents a multi-office suite and leases it out to other practitioners. A couple of those are massage therapists and acupuncturists, and they couldn't practice at all (due to state regulations) in the first few months of Covid. So he said he wasn't charging them rent. He's also said he hasn't really gotten any new clients, though a few have come back. And that some have needed more reduced rates due to losing jobs (some worked in restaurants or retail). He took out some sort of pandemic loan (PPP?) to help cover that, but I get the sense he's still financially struggling (no idea if his wife works or not).


So he might need a break, but doesn't want to take it if so many clients are struggling and/or that he needs the money.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

By understanding your alignment in the therapeutic relationship, you can understand how you relate to others in other contexts. This is a fundamental aspect of my therapist's modality and I have grown to really appreciate it.

I don’t think that’s actually different from what I said. I just said it in pragmatic terms.

And even under that modality the goal of the therapy is still not to form a relationship with the therapist. The relationship is still in its origins artificial—not in the bad-sense way of fake, but in the good-sense way of like making graftings on plants to help them grow. The goal in that scenario is to understand your relationships with other people, not the ones with the temporary help.

[ScarletPimpernel]

But sometimes the focus IS on the therapeutic relationship. Yes, the goal is to branch out, but with certain therapists, that relationship does not end. It's flexible. They are there (when able to) when you need them, while also promoting independence.

Maybe I'm not being clear My relationship with T and L will not end. They will be my therapist even after they retire. When they retire, I will still be allowed contact, though limited. The relationship IS real and important. It's not just a "professional" relationship as many have suggested. It's a "therapeutic" relationship which is special in its own right, and complex!

Some people don't experience therapy that way. Some don't want to or need to. And that's good for you. But others do want this and some therapists do offer it.

I am grateful that I have two therapists who will stay with me. I may out grow them, and that's okay. I may need them again, and that's okay too. Both provide different support, so I may need something else in the future.

LT - In my opinion, I don't think your Ts have met your therapeutic needs. What you need and want is out there.

[atisketatasket]

I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories. However, I do have a newsletter and it is printed beautifully on fading carbon paper...subscribe!

Over to you, LT...what happened with trying a female therapist?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Ditto.
(8 characters)

Lec - yes i keep up with all the hoarding reading. But on my kindle now!

Re the t relationship - ive said, "i love you so much!" to my t also, as LT has. But for me, saying that was more of an end point, like what you say after thanksgiving dinner. Thankful for the harvest, and now you have the resources to make it thru the lean times. You dont sit there and demand more, or whine that its over. You bask in the afterglow. I remember sitting there telling him, you dont have to do anything, this is all me, im happy, i have it, youre there, im here.

Now when i watch tv, i can understand peoples feelings better. I mean, i always understood the b.s., but i never understood the soft stuff. I can almost understand it now. I can almost understand the appeal of a spa-like bathroom, for example. Almost! With room for me.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories. However, I do have a newsletter and it is printed beautifully on fading carbon paper...subscribe!

Over to you, LT...what happened with trying a female therapist?

So, I have a phone consult with a female one tomorrow. A potential appointment with a male T Wednesday. And then I'm waiting to hear back from another female T, who offered an intake session, but I asked if she'd be willing to do either brief phone call or answer a couple questions over email first (and if not, I'll just schedule session). The guy, he answered email questions already. I also have a few outstanding "are you taking new clients?" queries to other female T's (one did reply, but out of town for a couple weeks, so figure will check out the others first). So, we'll see...

[zoiecat]

LT...I am curious about your reasons for therapy in the first place? You don't have to answer but it might be helpful to think about. What are your goals? Are you looking for a friend, someone to lean on, someone to validate you, someone to agree with you? Or are you looking to improve your life, feel less anxiety, and/or learn the skills needed to live comfortably on your own in real life?

I am not trying to be judgmental, my T always tells me to just look at the facts. From what I observe in your posts, I see that you often post about your T not saying what you wanted him too. This upsets you and results in emails and extra sessions. I have no idea what goes on in the session, but you post that your T often changes his stance which makes you happy again. I observe that you sign your posts with Love, LT when you state T validated you or made you feel cared for. When he does not give the response you wanted, there is no Love added.

I only bring up these observations (and this is my opinion, not fact) because it appears to me that your goal in T is to have someone to validate you and make you feel cared for, someone who agrees with you. I of course do not know you goals, but I know that the role of a T is not to tell us that everything we think, feel and want are as it should be. A T should be helping you improve yourself and helping you deal with life in the real world. This is not accomplished by agreeing with everything we do or adjusting their boundaries or opinions to make us feel better. The more your T has continued to give in to you the more attached you become and the more you expect from him. Real life does not work like that. Everyone is not going to say what you want or change their actions or opinions to satisfy your needs. Maybe that is why you are so attached. He is the only you can (sorry I can't think of a nicer word) control/manipulate into giving you what you feel you need. Is this really helpful? You have said many times that your are trying to decrease drinking but then you say your T told you to go out and have a beer. I understand the need to get out in public and do things, but that seems kind of self defeating.

I am sorry to be blunt and feel free to ignore everything I have said. It just pains me to see you reliving the same issues year after year. I am sure my desires for you are totally different than your own. I know I would like to see you be able to deal with life's dissapointments without so much anxiety. This is possible but only if a T pushes you out of your comfort zone and you allow it to happen. This would only be an option if it is truly what you want. I guess that is why I ask you to think about what you are really looking for in T.

[ElectricManatee]

It's interesting because my T is strongly relational and takes the perspective that our relationship is real. She feels things, I feel things, and we have a bond with each other. I tell her a lot about how I feel about her, and she tells me certain things about what she feels toward me (things that she thinks would useful for me). I think this approach is the way that I am able to really get deep into how I feel about me and what assumptions I assume the other person is making. So in that sense, she isn't a symbol but a living breathing person. She has referred to it as a two person therapy, rather than the humanist client-centered approach. But yeah, in other ways she is probably more of a symbol, especially when I pile a bunch of my mommy issues onto her and then pick a fight.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks. I strongly suspect he may be at least approaching burnout. Aside from one day off, he's been generally working 5-6 days a week since the end of February (the last time he took a week off). And he's said that pretty much all of his clients are doing worse with the pandemic. And he's allowing the increased contact thing for everyone. So I imagine he's somewhat overwhelmed, plus his own struggles with it.

Plus I know he's had some financial stress, as he rents a multi-office suite and leases it out to other practitioners. A couple of those are massage therapists and acupuncturists, and they couldn't practice at all (due to state regulations) in the first few months of Covid. So he said he wasn't charging them rent. He's also said he hasn't really gotten any new clients, though a few have come back. And that some have needed more reduced rates due to losing jobs (some worked in restaurants or retail). He took out some sort of pandemic loan (PPP?) to help cover that, but I get the sense he's still financially struggling (no idea if his wife works or not).


So he might need a break, but doesn't want to take it if so many clients are struggling and/or that he needs the money.

If he took a couple of weeks off and said "I need a couple fo weeks off foe my mental health" How would you repond?

I actually told my T about reading that many herapists are struggling right now and wondered how she was doing. zee has a discussion about her self care.

Also, long term T (whom I adored) and I had a conversation after I reached out about something and she mentioned it being something one usually contacts a friend about. I was hurt also but she explained that her job to help a client need her less and less not more. She felt she had let me down.

So you relationship continues with Dr. T do you find yourself needing him more or less??

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

The more your T has continued to give in to you the more attached you become and the more you expect from him. Real life does not work like that. Everyone is not going to say what you want or change their actions or opinions to satisfy your needs. Maybe that is why you are so attached. He is the only you can (sorry I can't think of a nicer word) control/manipulate into giving you what you feel you need. Is this really helpful? You have said many times that your are trying to decrease drinking but then you say your T told you to go out and have a beer. I understand the need to get out in public and do things, but that seems kind of self defeating.

I am sorry to be blunt and feel free to ignore everything I have said. It just pains me to see you reliving the same issues year after year. I am sure my desires for you are totally different than your own. I know I would like to see you be able to deal with life's dissapointments without so much anxiety. This is possible but only if a T pushes you out of your comfort zone and you allow it to happen. This would only be an option if it is truly what you want. I guess that is what you are really looking for in T.

Thanks, zoiecat, I'm not offended. Just quoting the part here that really resonates with me. I did actually say to him on Tuesday that I feel he's contributed to my becoming more dependent (I don't think he said much in response to that). I mean, he let me go to 2, then more recently 3 sessions a week, allows email (and without ever charging for it lately), letting me text on occasion beyond scheduling, when that's technically against the rules....

In a way, I'm angry at him because he allowed all that. He knows how ex-MC's inconsistent boundaries affected me. He knows I tend to push/test to get what I want from T's. And he's let me do that. It's stuff that feels good at the time, but I know likely doesn't help me in the end.

The thing is, in the beginning, he seemed to have really strong boundaries. So he seemed more "safe" to me, like "OK, he's not going to let me interact with him like ex-MC did." From e-mail/text boundaries to not disclosing much about himself. But then since the pandemic started, he's disclosed much more (and when I asked him about this, thinking perhaps it was intentional, he said he wasn't aware that he was disclosing more...which concerned me). The fact that he also was a jerk some of the time also helped keep me from getting too attached.

And this T has tried to push me out of my comfort zone--most recently, he's encouraged me to push past my fears and go out to an outdoor table at a restaurant. Which has helped some. But your comment on how he says I can go have a beer resonates with me. Because I'll also mention having a few beers while talking with H, and he says that's a good time to have some beers. I feel he hasn't really helped me much with drinking, even though he seems knowledgeable about substance abuse. He just seems to push that aside. He pushes for exercise, but he's also a sports psychologist, so...


Actually, one of the T's I contacted (who I'm waiting to hear back from) says her expertise is with clients with dual diagnoses of substance abuse and mood disorders. Actually, I wonder if it's a case where maybe I could see sort of a regular T (I don't mean Dr. T necessarily, just some sort of a T), then see her for the addiction part? Or maybe she does regular therapy as well. Or I just see her for a few months to work on addiction, then switch to more of a regular (non-addiction) T.

But anyway, what you said was helpful and gave me some things to think about. I do feel Dr. T enables me in various ways, whether that's replying to emails/texts in a caring way (even though he'd apparently prefer not to have to reply), letting me have however many sessions I want, reducing my rate so I can do that, not pushing me much on my drinking, etc.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

If he took a couple of weeks off and said "I need a couple fo weeks off foe my mental health" How would you repond?

I actually told my T about reading that many herapists are struggling right now and wondered how she was doing. zee has a discussion about her self care.

Also, long term T (whom I adored) and I had a conversation after I reached out about something and she mentioned it being something one usually contacts a friend about. I was hurt also but she explained that her job to help a client need her less and less not more. She felt she had let me down.

So you relationship continues with Dr. T do you find yourself needing him more or less??

This is a good question. I feel like I'd be crushed and sort of afraid if he was taking a few weeks off. I'd likely see if the T I saw when he was away earlier this year was available, but I'd be really anxious. And that's the sort of thing that makes me realize I need to pull back and/or try another T. Because what if he (or his wife or son) get Covid? Or what if he just suddenly realizes he's at some breaking point and needs a couple weeks off? I need to not be so dependent that I can handle that.

I did ask Dr. T a few months ago about burnout, because I was concerned, and he talked about practicing self-care, that he's OK. But I don't know now---are more and more clients emailing him (when they weren't before) or asking for extra sessions? Plus I know his sport was an outlet...not so sure it is now?

The thing is, in the months before Covid, I'd been doing much better in reaching out to other people, meeting friends for lunch, getting more physical exercise, going to painting events, etc. I felt I was actually getting to a place where I could reduce from two sessions a week to one, though hadn't discussed it with T yet. So I'd definitely become less dependent on him. Then Covid hit, and it was like everything fell apart. In the past...I guess 7 months now, I do feel like I've been needing him more. Where for a while, I felt like I'd been needing him less.

But part of what I said Tuesday was I felt like he'd contributed to the dependence. And he said he knows I have fewer options for support now. So he's trying to give more. But I also feel like that's fostering more dependence. And it's like I don't know how to pull away from that. And he even said Tuesday that he's not sure what the path forward for me is in terms of decreasing dependence. So if *he* doesn't even know...

So in a way, though this may not make a lot of sense (hello, insecure attachment!), it's easier for me to just pull away and try to find some other T. I still intend to see Dr. T Monday...I think? I canceled the potential session tomorrow. Or maybe I cancel Monday, have the intake with the other T Wednesday (and possibly meet with another T early in the week, too) and just wait to see him till next Friday?

[snowangel17]

LT, I don’t know your background or what you started going to therapy in the first place but it seems to me that many of the difficulties you are having with all your Ts are relational. If you do end up getting a new T it might be helpful to make sure it’s one who works with a relational approach and understands the importance of the therapy relationship and transference. My understanding (and my own therapy) the relationship I have with my T IS the work. It seems to me that this T doesn’t really believe that although sometimes does things that suggest he does but then really he just doesn’t... people are suggesting a female T but honestly I think many of the same attachment things will come up again and again regardless of the sex .....

My understanding (very simplified) is that for those of use with insecure attachment a relationship with a good enough T (one who is empathetic, caring , authentic but also has boundaries (as a good enough parent should have) will help us to form earned secure attachment and with that also help us with resolving many of the other difficulties stemming from this...

You have been with this T for a few years now and clearly as a lot of people would do formed an attachment to him. It makes total sense that you would want to reach out to him rather than friends in a time of crisis.

It’s strange that he thought you had a secure attachment to your old t... someone with a secure attachment to someone feels safe in the relationship and doesn’t need to reach out all the time as you trust the relationship and know that they are there..

for people with insecure attachments there is often this belief that if a T gives more that the person will want more and more and more and never stop. I don’t know if this is necessarily true... I’ve always wanted ‘more’ of my T and felt I wasn’t getting enough seeing them only once a week which seemed to fuel my transference . During COVID they made some adjustments and eased up a little on boundaries...(not too much that it was worrying but enough that it helped me realize they do care ).... this was huge for me as it allowed me to feel more secure in the relationship and actually resulted in me needing and wanting them less...i realized I was starting to trust more ... I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated .... . Not sure I’m making much sense and am rambling now so I’ll stop...but look for a T who works with attachment and transference as they seem to be big themes throughout your posts.

[unaluna]

[nottrustin]

Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.

[elisewin]

What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.

Regarding whether it would be better to keep working with him, I don't know--I am still meeting with him Monday (and kept him on the schedule for next week, but I imagine I'll at least cancel Wednesday because I have the intake with another T later that afternoon).

In terms of pre-Covid ways, it isn't just the emails and session limits. It's that he also said he'd be less supportive and would push more. And now that I've seen him be more supportive, I think it would be difficult to go back to the other way.

And I really feel like there's stuff I need to work on that he's not really skilled and/or comfortable enough to do. I think I just need to try someone different for a bit, even just a few sessions, to see what it feels like. Last year, that helped me realize I did want to stay with T. This year, I don't know?

[chihirochild]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Rather than jumping ship do you think you would be more beneficial to work on feeling more dependent rather than pushing him completely away and running.

I think many therapists are providing more support right now because my of the supports that clients had in place before COVID are no longer available. They also know the negative impact it is having on the mental health of many people. What of you as your to go back to more his pre Covid ways? Charge you again for emails, limit to 2 sessions a week or whatever us making you uncomfortable.

See, I would totally agree with that *if* Dr. T were skilled in working with dependency and attachment and transference. I worry that LT "working on" those things with Dr. T will not be productive since he tends to be dismissive (and, IMHO, not super skillfull) when he encounters those issues.

Originally Posted by elisewin

What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?

I wonder if LT might feel ambivalent about that herself? I would feel ambivalent in her position--I'd like the need-accommodating because of the closeness and the feeling like Dr. T was making an exception for me because he cares... but I'd also be afraid of the need-accomodating because I'd know that it's important for therapists to hold boundaries, keep a consistent frame, let us practice distress tolerance when we can't get what we need from the therapeutic relationship.

What say you, LT?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by elisewin

What would you want him to do really? Keeping his boundaries and for example not giving you extra sessions and reminding you to keep his boundaries? It doesn't seem to work with you, it makes you anxious and thinking that he doesn't care or understand. And you don't respect his boundaries anyway, like you mentioned texting him anyway, even if he said it is his boundary.

But when he is trying to accomodate your needs with many sessions, letting you text etc. you are not happy but accuse him of making you dependant. Also when he doesn't self disclose, you get upset, and when he does, you get upset?

I'm honestly confused if you want him to be more distant with text, appointments and self disclosure or more relaxed and accommondating for your needs and wishes?

I know I don't make much sense...I think it generally comes down to wants vs. needs. I *want* him to relax his boundaries, but what I really need is for him to hold them. I *want* him to self-disclose, but what I really need is for him to keep that at a minimum. I *want* him to be flexible, but what I really need is for him to be consistent.

The wants feel good in the moment, but can also be confusing to me. Like, the increased self-disclosure, chatting about politics, joking together, things like that, those feel more friend-like (or something even more than that). And then I feel this other connection to him that's more than professional.

Things like texting and emailing, if I know he's not going to charge (or express annoyance at a text), then I'm more likely to use those things instead of being forced to find other ways to cope (or to decide if it's worth a possible charge if I email, like, how badly do I really need this?) And the three times a week, I've really appreciated in some ways, but then I was feeling scared to go back to two. It feels like he encouraged dependency. Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm autonomous and could just not accept any of those things, choose to never email, etc. But I'm not really good at doing that.


It's like how good parents need to set limits. A kid would be totally content to eat cupcakes and candy all day, but a good parent insists on having some healthy food as well. The kid won't be happy about it, but it's healthier for them. It's like I've gone from a fairly healthy diet to lots of cupcakes. Tastes good, but not so good for me in the long-term.

Does that make sense? Some of this is also tied up in my insecure attachment, push-pull stuff. Like wanting him to prove he cares, being content for a bit, then wanting more proof. Ex-MC fell into that. Dr. T seemed fairly good at holding boundaries for a long stretch, which made me feel safer, if frustrated. So now that he's been loosening, I feel less safe.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by snowangel17

LT, I don’t know your background or what you started going to therapy in the first place but it seems to me that many of the difficulties you are having with all your Ts are relational. If you do end up getting a new T it might be helpful to make sure it’s one who works with a relational approach and understands the importance of the therapy relationship and transference. My understanding (and my own therapy) the relationship I have with my T IS the work. It seems to me that this T doesn’t really believe that although sometimes does things that suggest he does but then really he just doesn’t... people are suggesting a female T but honestly I think many of the same attachment things will come up again and again regardless of the sex .....

My understanding (very simplified) is that for those of use with insecure attachment a relationship with a good enough T (one who is empathetic, caring , authentic but also has boundaries (as a good enough parent should have) will help us to form earned secure attachment and with that also help us with resolving many of the other difficulties stemming from this...

You have been with this T for a few years now and clearly as a lot of people would do formed an attachment to him. It makes total sense that you would want to reach out to him rather than friends in a time of crisis.

It’s strange that he thought you had a secure attachment to your old t... someone with a secure attachment to someone feels safe in the relationship and doesn’t need to reach out all the time as you trust the relationship and know that they are there..

for people with insecure attachments there is often this belief that if a T gives more that the person will want more and more and more and never stop. I don’t know if this is necessarily true... I’ve always wanted ‘more’ of my T and felt I wasn’t getting enough seeing them only once a week which seemed to fuel my transference . During COVID they made some adjustments and eased up a little on boundaries...(not too much that it was worrying but enough that it helped me realize they do care ).... this was huge for me as it allowed me to feel more secure in the relationship and actually resulted in me needing and wanting them less...i realized I was starting to trust more ... I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated .... . Not sure I’m making much sense and am rambling now so I’ll stop...but look for a T who works with attachment and transference as they seem to be big themes throughout your posts.

Thanks for these comments. I am aiming to look for a T who works with relational and attachment issues--I heard back from one who has that as one of her main focuses, so I plan to schedule an appointment with her. The guy I'm seeing (virtually) Wednesday also works with them. Less sure about the woman I'm having a brief phone consult with today, but that's something I will ask her about.

Thanks for saying it made sense I'd want to reach out to him when I was really upset. I felt hurt that he acted like I shouldn't have reached out to him. Yet responded to the actual text in a caring, supportive way anyway. But then when I asked him about it, he was saying he's not who I should have reached out to. So it's all very confusing.


Dr. T relaxing his boundaries did feel good for a while. At times, I felt we had a relative secure relationship, but also felt somewhat ill at ease because I know what's happened with him before. And at times it was like I was waiting for that other side of him to come out, the side that's colder, concerned with his own feelings and reactions, being "honest" about things without thinking of the effect it might have on me, etc. And perhaps I was trying to draw it out, say, by texting when I knew I shouldn't. Then it's like I was confused when that side initially *didn't* come out.

But then hearing that he will basically go back to how he was--being less supportive and pushing more (he said this yesterday), plus the email/text stuff--once Covid goes away was hard to hear. Because part of me thought it wasn't necessarily just Covid that had led him to shift how he acted toward me--I thought it was that he'd deepened in his caring toward me, perhaps even to the level of (platonic) love. And whether he was conscious of it or not, that he was showing that in how he acted. So I think hearing it's just because of Covid and can get pulled away (combined with his preferring not to have to do email at all) just hurt. Like, it's not me, it's Covid. (If that makes any sense!)

This part of your comment rings especially true for me: "I guess my point is that with the right therapist who gives you what you need (within reasonable boundaries) you could develop this trust in the relationship whereby your dependence doesn’t just get worse and worse...... yes there will be times where you push the boundaries (that is normal) and they should hold them... it will be frustrating but they should also be giving you enough that you aren’t constantly frustrated"

For a long time, Dr. T mostly held his boundaries. Sometimes he would admit an email reply took more than 15 minutes (his threshold for charging), but he decided not to charge me. Which felt nice, but also, inconsistent. With the texts, he has always allowed them for scheduling. But one time in the first year of seeing him, I texted asking for an earlier appointment and included the explanation that my uncle had passed away. He said in session that the text had been "intrusive," that I should just ask for an extra session without any explanation. So I tended to do that in the future. But then sometimes he'd ask if I was OK, so I'd reply briefly what was up, which he was fine with or add that I could email to explain the request if I wanted. And later he said it is fine to explain the reason for an appointment request in a text. So, very inconsistent.

And inconsistent boundaries were a big part of the problem with ex-MC. Dr. T *knows* this. Which I think is why he was trying to be so consistent with boundaries in the beginning (he even said he intentionally disclosed less to me because ex-MC disclosed a lot, and he thinks that may have contributed to the transference). Dr. T's boundaries were painful, and I thought about leaving a few times early on, but I knew they were good for me, so I stayed. But now the looser boundaries seem to be hurting me...even though some of it feels good in the moment.

OK, now I'm totally rambling, so I'll stop!