[snowangel17]

I don't think the issue is that he changed his boundaries as I think some flexibility and responding to what a client needs at different times is good. I think the issue here is him saying suddenly that he is going to take it (the support and extra contact) away after COVID....It's jarring.. and almost triggering for someone with abandonment issues (not saying you have but I know I do and that's how I'd respond to that) ...It might have perhaps been helpful if he had outlined his boundary changes at the start...i.e I will allow more contact just during COVID as I know things are more difficult for you right now and I want to be able to give you more support but once things settle down again with COVID I will have to reign it back to what we are doing now or something like that or even just brought the topic up more gently and included you in the conversation. It also feels like he has all the control and you have none (yes I know thats the dynamic of the therapist client relationship) but it could have been a more collaborative conversation where you felt you had some input.....

My T gave me a little bit more (i.e a reduced rate) and more in between session contact at the beginning of COVID when I lost my job and when everything was shut down and I needed more support . She did however say that it could only be for a short while so I knew it would have to end at some point. I have now started back at work again and we have now gone back to how things were. Even though the decision really fully rested with her she somehow made it feel like I had an input. It was extermely difficult at first and it's oh so frustrating as I want to see her more but I'm slowly getting used to the boundary again. It will however take time I am sure.

The fact he gave you more support highlights that he does care about you LT and wants to help YOU. He also may have done it because he is a therapist who wants to help and support all of his clients in times of crisis . Those two things can exist together. He now seems to be wearing his therapist hat more again, I think lots of people, therapsits included, started to soften more especially at the start of COIVD (in all walks of life as they realised our collective humanity and how there is lots we can't control) ....

It seems you don't always trust in the relationship or the care which is again totally understandable given your past experiences and perhaps even your childhood ones. It can take years for someone who has difficulty trusting to regain that sense of trust in others. It seems here that you had started to trust him and the relationship but him saying what he said has wiped that all out for you. Again understandable.....But him wanting to reign things in a little again does not mean he doesn't care. Consistency and clarity here though would have been helpful..I don't know I'm beginning to ramble again...I wouldn't just run away to another T without discussing things more with Dr T though and hearing what he has to say.. There could be benefit to sticking with him and working through it....In the long term though I just think he doesn't really 'get it' the attachment stuff that is and you may do better with a more relational T who gives you a little bit more and is able to hold all of you feelings with clear, consistent boundaries and help you realise that you are not too much.

[snowangel17]

But then hearing that he will basically go back to how he was--being less supportive and pushing more (he said this yesterday), plus the email/text stuff--once Covid goes away was hard to hear. Because part of me thought it wasn't necessarily just Covid that had led him to shift how he acted toward me--I thought it was that he'd deepened in his caring toward me, perhaps even to the level of (platonic) love. And whether he was conscious of it or not, that he was showing that in how he acted. So I think hearing it's just because of Covid and can get pulled away (combined with his preferring not to have to do email at all) just hurt. Like, it's not me, it's Covid. (If that makes any sense!)

This part stands out a bit to me...and maybe why you are finding this so painful...You are equating him taking it all away as meaning he didn't care at all which is very black and white thinking....and doesn't have to be true...From you post and the way it reads he sounds quite cold in how he said it...I wonder was that how it was in the session for you? Was he cold and abrupt in how he said it? If so there are many reasons he could be pulling back or wanting to reign it in again.... It also sounds like you were also starting to perhaps fantasize that him giving you more of him meant that he may have started to have deeper feelings for you or even perhaps start to love you...(platonically or otherwise). Taking it away or saying that he doesn't even like emailing has killed this fantasize and that can be painful...Not saying he doesn't have some loving feelings towards you but it would be nomal here for you to want them to be more than what they could be (i.e romantic feelings)

You mentioned him saying that he doesn't even like emailing and how hutful you find that...Again totally understandable to be hurt by that comment but him not liking emailing doesn't necessarily mean he was resenting you or faking care about you when he did email. I actually think it shows he cared...to do something he doesn't really like doing because he knows your found it helpful or needed that support...Not all therapists offer emails so he doesn't have to.....

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by chihirochild

See, I would totally agree with that *if* Dr. T were skilled in working with dependency and attachment and transference. I worry that LT "working on" those things with Dr. T will not be productive since he tends to be dismissive (and, IMHO, not super skillfull) when he encounters those issues.

Yes, this is what I worry about, too.

Of course, I just caved and asked if I could in fact still have 30 minutes today, because I'm just sitting here crying while attempting to get work done.

Originally Posted by chihirochild

I wonder if LT might feel ambivalent about that herself? I would feel ambivalent in her position--I'd like the need-accommodating because of the closeness and the feeling like Dr. T was making an exception for me because he cares... but I'd also be afraid of the need-accomodating because I'd know that it's important for therapists to hold boundaries, keep a consistent frame, let us practice distress tolerance when we can't get what we need from the therapeutic relationship.

What say you, LT?

I definitely have some ambivalence going on. Some of what he was doing was making me feel special and, yes, like he truly cares, maybe about me as a person rather than just a client. But, then, OK, I briefly feel special, then he mentions that he might be confusing me with another client, and it sort of comes crashing down. And then it's like I feel worse, because I had the illusion of being special for a bit.

and like you said, if he accommodates my needs, then I don't need to work on distress tolerance so much. But then he also seems critical of me for not working on distress tolerance more... I feel like he helped create this dependence in some ways. (Sort of like how ex-MC did, too--in his case, allowing (free) phone calls, plus texts and emails.) The other problem is, then I get used to it, so, if one time he doesn't give me something (replying the the email about the doctor's--which led to the text), then it hurts or feels like a rejection. Where if he holds consistent boundaries, then it would be easier for me. And he *was* fairly consistent in the beginning, which made him feel safer than ex-MC.

Now he seems much less safe. And now I feel rejected and have the instinct to run away...which maybe is the right instinct. But I still need to talk to him about it first.

[ScarletPimpernel]

LT - I can relate to the feeling of things being taken away after COVID. L and I have been doing "I love yous" after every session. We only started doing that since COVID. She also let me borrow her blanket for this time. I know it's hers, but if/when she takes it away, I'm going to be heartbroken. And I lent her a bracelet of mine so she would have a part of me. I don't want her to give it back even though the charm is expensive (it's a micro Amigurumi elephant).

I also understand about being frustrated and lost(?) without having solid boundaries. L and I have been starting to talk about her boundaries. They don't make any sense to me. She says it's not about me, but it's hard not to take it personally. She's supposed to clearly explain to me her boundaries sometime soon. I actually confronted her if her boundaries were ethical. She said they are. Was scary as hell to ask that because what if she took something away?

I know that doesn't necessarily help you. Just wanted to relate to you so you know you're not the only one.

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Can you explain more what you mean? Like, about the alignment in the therapeutic relationship?

How we each position ourselves in response to the other - our individual responses and instincts, and how this shapes our relationship. For example, if I attack her, she defends herself. In your instance, it might be that as you reach out to your therapist, he withdraws. Once we learn more about that mechanism between us, we can align ourselves differently. I might not need to attack if I can articulate that I want to attack and so she doesn't need to defend herself, we have adjusted to a more open and compassionate position. It is not always about being perfectly attuned (this is certainly true for me as I struggle to be in relationship with others), but the misalignment is equally useful, if painful.

[LonesomeTonight]

So, the 30-minute session today was actually really helpful, and I think we understand each other more now. He was glad I requested to talk because he saw how in distress I was and didn't want me to have to hold onto that until Monday. More later--need to do work.

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I’m apparently defining “therapeutic relationship” and “relationship with the therapist” differently from most of you. They are not synonymous. One is with the therapist in their space as a therapist and is a tool for the client to use to reach the goal for which they are in therapy (not a goal of therapy), the other is outside that space with them not as a therapist.

So, yes, if someone is in long-term therapy, the therapeutic relationship is not necessarily “temporary.” But a relationship with the therapist is still not the goal of the therapy.

I’ve taken up too much of LT’s thread with my unappealing semantics and theories.

I don't think this is a semantic issue, you are describing categorical differences.

I am not suggesting that a relationship with the therapist is the therapy goal. However, there are approaches where the relationship is an integral part of achieving the client's goal. It doesn't matter if the relationship is temporary or paid-for; the client gathers information about themselves from its dynamic, fractures and connections. And then change can happen, which is almost always the goal of therapy in some form.

I don't think that the relationship is as vital in CBT and might be used differently in psychodynamic therapy where transferences and projections could be central.

[LonesomeTonight]

Scarlet, I mentioned your analogy comparing Dr. T replying to emails to H doing dishes when he doesn't like it because I'm sick or busy. As a show of caring. And he really liked the comparison.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

So, the 30-minute session today was actually really helpful, and I think we understand each other more now. He was glad I requested to talk because he saw how in distress I was and didn't want me to have to hold onto that until Monday. More later--need to do work.

Glad to hear you talked. Do you still plan to talk to the other Ts?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Glad to hear you talked. Do you still plan to talk to the other Ts?

This is what I'm debating...I'd already canceled the phone consult with one female therapist, but that was partly because from looking at her website, she didn't seem like the right fit for me (I'd only looked at her Psychology Today profile before contacting her--lots more info on her website).

I technically have an intake with the one guy Wednesday, but I'm very torn on that (we had an email exchange, and he seemed promising). If I'm thinking of staying with Dr. T, it seems weird to do an intake (and it would be an actual intake session). Like not a good use of my money/time or the T's time. One thought I had was to be honest with that T and see if he might be willing to do a consult instead? Or if I should cancel the session, and see if he'd be open to seeing me in the future?

Another woman had offered me a session, I asked if I could do brief phone call or email to see about fit first. She said today that I could, but I haven't gotten back to her yet.

I think I'm just wondering how much sense it makes to be changing T's in the middle of a pandemic, when I feel in need of lots of support. Even though it may not be his favorite thing, Dr. T allows email (he explained more today). He's willing to see me 3 times a week if I want (I guess 3.5 times this week...) and tends to be flexible with rescheduling. If I switch to someone new right now, first, they won't really know me. And I have no idea if they'd be willing to meet more than once a week, even if just to begin with to sort of wean me back down. Or if they allow any outside contact. I suppose I could just ask them that...

But I guess part of it, too, is that with the guy, I think I'd be doing schema therapy. I'm dealing with lots of other stressors right now due to Covid (my daughter being a major one). Do I really want to undertake a method that delves deep into childhood stuff right now? (He also does EMDR, incidentally.) I mean, I think it's probably work I should do eventually. But I wonder if now is the right time, when my emotional resources are already stretched really thin?

Also, these T's are only seeing people virtually right now (which I completely understand), and I worry it will be difficult to forge some sort of bond without meeting them in person. Like maybe I'd rather wait until it's considered safe in my area to do in-person therapy to try someone new?

It may seem like I'm making excuses. But I do feel much better after talking to Dr. T today and could sense his dedication to working with me. He really thought he'd told me all that stuff about email before, but that maybe it just wasn't as starkly? Then I said not really, I didn't think he had, maybe little bits about it, but not as clear. So to me it felt like mostly new information, while he felt like he was just reiterating something he'd said before.

I probably should have tried to work it out with him before contacting other T's. But part of me just felt so wounded that it felt easier/less painful to look for other options. And that gave me something to focus on. I figure I'll think about it for a day or two then get back to the T's.

Thoughts? Do I still go to the (virtual) intake? If no, do I say it's because I'm working things out with my T? (I had just said I was seeing a T and wanted a change) And ask if I could potentially contact him again in the future? Or do I say I think I'd rather wait until I can meet a new T in person? Or ask about a possible consult vs. intake? And what about the woman? (The one that I canceled with, I said I didn't think she was the right fit.)

ETA: A complication of the scheduled session is that it's the same day, though a couple hours later, than my currently scheduled Dr. T session. I doubt I'd want to do two in one day (and am pretty confident my insurance wouldn't be good with that--both out of network), so I'd likely want to cancel with Dr. T. But I wouldn't want to tell him I'm seeing another T. As I worry it would seem manipulative. So...

[ElectricManatee]

Regarding jumping into childhood stuff, trauma therapists are usually very careful about setting up a good foundation by developing a strong therapeutic alliance, making you feel safe, getting to know you, and making sure you're managing your current stressors before they ever start edging into trauma territory. My EMDR therapist took F-O-R-E-V-E-R to start actual EMDR (probably because I was acutely suicidal when we first met, but still...). I really think you would enjoy schema therapy, based on what I know about it, but I can also absolutely see it feeling a little risky to shake things up right now, mid-pandemic.

[ScarletPimpernel]

It's a hard call. Only you can make the decision that you think is best for you.

I will say this: I did not like T when I first met her. Our very first session, she double booked me. Then I was still hoping to go back to ex-T (for aome unknown reason). One day I actually told T I hated her. She told me that when I say such things it makes it difficult for her to want to work with me. Ouch! I told her I was searching for a new T. She volunteered to help me...lol. I stuck it out with her for a little while, however I could not find a T I liked. So we just continued. And she grew on me. I think I stayed with her for 4 years before her maternity leave? We had a few ruptures, but we always worked things out. Even L and I have had a few ruptures. We had one this week! But we've gotten so good at repairing them that this time only took 2 days.

My point is: maybe it's best to work through this with your T. Maybe that's what you need? Not to give up and run away, but to assert yourself and work together to make amends. Idk.

Or...maybe just try out one new T to get the feel of things. Take a small break from Dr. T?

I know this from T and L. A good therapist will want whatever is best for their client. If the client thinks another T is better, they shouldn't take it personally or try to stop their client. They should support them and make the transition easier. And like T did for me, they should leave their doors open. L said she would do the same. And actually, T and L still communicate about me together. I allow it because T is still a part of my team even if she's not actively my therapist.

I'm sorry for posting so much about my experience. I'm in no way trying to take over your thread. The only advice I can give is based off of my experiences. I understand our situations are different and knowing mine may not be helpful. So ignore if it's unhelpful. Do what's best for you!

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Regarding jumping into childhood stuff, trauma therapists are usually very careful about setting up a good foundation by developing a strong therapeutic alliance, making you feel safe, getting to know you, and making sure you're managing your current stressors before they ever start edging into trauma territory. My EMDR therapist took F-O-R-E-V-E-R to start actual EMDR (probably because I was acutely suicidal when we first met, but still...). I really think you would enjoy schema therapy, based on what I know about it, but I can also absolutely see it feeling a little risky to shake things up right now, mid-pandemic.

Thanks, EM. I've heard that about trauma T's as well. I imagine that's part of their training. (and I will reply to your PM!)

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks, Scarlet. Feel free to share as much as you like about your experience--I find it helpful to hear what others have experienced (which is also part of why I share mine). It felt very much from Dr. T today that he's trying to do what's best for me. This one line he said, in response to something I was saying, really struck me.

We were talking about how he'd said once the pandemic is over that he'd start pushing me more. Which I had felt meant he'd be less supportive. And he said how he has pushed me a bit during the pandemic (where I became so I didn't want to step outside the house at all). I said something about how in my head, I think maybe I see pushing as meaning "less caring," but I guessed that didn't really make sense. That I didn't think that if he's pushing me, he's not caring. And he said, "It is the only reason I'm pushing." As in, if he didn't care, he wouldn't push me. And it really affected me.

[susannahsays]

He told you that he charges for emails to prevent him from feeling resentful (or something along those lines). I would have understood that to mean that emailing is not an activity he enjoys. I probably would have assumed that anyway, though, since I don't know anyone who welcomes doing stuff for work during time they would otherwise have for themselves.

I do feel that Dr. T has been careless or perhaps lacking in the strength to say no to you when he's relaxed so many boundaries.

Sometimes my therapist says things that I don't love to hear. For example, she said a few weeks ago that she wouldn't want to do teletherapy from her house because she basically wouldn't like clients seeing it. This came up when I was talking about how a handwritten letter talking about the so-called end days from some stranger felt intrusive. She said she thought she understood how I felt and then made the disclosure. I already thought she felt that way, but I still didn't like hearing about theoretical client intrusiveness. Another time, she made a comment about how she was sad about being stuck inside on such a beautiful day. So it was like, sorry you're stuck inside doing a session with me... And one time a couple months ago, she canceled a session because she wasn't feeling well.
I asked if she thought she had COVID and she said no, she was just feeling really stressed due to work. I think she was just trying to be reassuring since she knows I worry she's going to get COVID and die (and given the wide spectrum of symptoms, anything else she said I probably would have taken as a harbinger of COVID). But it still didn't feel great knowing she felt like she just couldn't deal with me that day or something. And she has thanked me on multiple occasions when I've mentioned not texting her even though I wanted to. I do like that she is appreciative of me being considerate and controlling my impulses, but it's not 100% wonderful being thanked for not having contact with someone.

I'm not sure why I related all that, but I guess I think that the comments all just confirmed what I already basically knew - not because she said anything to hint, but because I put myself in her shoes and come to conclusions based on how people typically feel and how I myself would feel. I wonder why you never thought that answering emails is something he would rather not do - like why that revelation was such a shock when it seems like common sense. I know I'm sounding really judgey right now, and that's not my intention. I just don't know how to say what I want to say in a way that doesn't sound critical (or worse, holier-than-thou which would honestly be a joke).

[ElectricManatee]

This thing about liking/not liking/resenting outside contact came up with my main T (Liz) yesterday. I told her that I am sometimes slightly annoyed when my students contact me, as I would rather not have to answer a bunch of emails. (I teach a course as an adjunct sometimes.) She said that in her experience, having that kind of contact as a professor and as a therapist are two very different things. (She has taught courses for therapists in training in the past.) She said she isn't always like, "HOORAY! IT'S MANATEE!" because sometimes she is busy, but she said that she wants to be there for me and to help me feel like I have supportive, helpful people in my life. Maybe it's easier because usually she prefers phone calls to email, so it's just extra talking, rather than writing? So maybe she's an outlier or a workaholic, but apparently not all therapists see outside contact as a chore.

[LonesomeTonight]

Susannah, Dr. T would agree with you. He said after Thursday's session, that he was going over in his mind what could have gotten me that upset because he thought he'd shared it all with me before. He said all he could think of was that he hadn't put it out there that "starkly" or strung it all together like that. I agreed how that was likely part of it. I said it also seemed very cold the way he was saying it, and he said he didn't intend to come across that way, that maybe the words themselves were what was cold.

I said how sometimes at the end of a difficult session, he would say to me, "You know my email policy," or "If you're stressing about this later, feel free to email." So that gave me more of a sense he was fine with it. When I said that, he was like, "Oh..." and that he could see how I had that impression. He also said that he thought he gave me some "pushback" on most of my emails. I was like, "What are you talking about?" He said maybe not every email, but he thought a fair amount he did. I still wasn't sure what he meant, like in the emails themselves or later? He said some of both (now I need to look back at old emails...). I said there were times when he'd talk about trying other things first, like talking to friend, H, some sort of self-care. I said I had come to mention those things in emails, like "I went for a short walk, I talked to J, I watched some TV, but I'm still struggling." Or that I'd type up an email the night before and save it, then send it in the morning if I was still feeling that way (something he'd suggested at one point, as he usually replies to emails in the mornings). I was like "You could just look at the drafts in my email folder to see that I didn't send everything."

He said he didn't want me to feel bad about his replying to emails or indebted to him or guilty in any way. Because he chooses to do them, as a compromise in our relationship. That I'm compromising on some things, too. That he's OK with emails. And also would prefer not to be doing it. And that those things can exist simultaneously


Some of what your T has said sounds similar. I'd definitely be bothered by her comment on being stuck inside on a beautiful day--makes me think of the time that ex-MC came to work on a holiday (Labor Day or Memorial Day, I think), and he said he'd rather be hanging out in his backyard, but figured he should be responsible and come to work. Like, how is that supposed to make me feel? To me, that's something you share with your colleagues, not your clients. And your T saying she's stressed about work would bother me as well. But considering your Covid concerns, I can also see why she did it, though she could have just gone with "taking a mental health day" inside of saying it was specifically about work.

In regards to your last part, I think, besides what I said earlier (about his mentioning I could email after a tough session), I think the fact that, particularly lately, he's sounded very caring and supportive in his emails made me think he was OK with it. Where, from what he said, I imagine him sitting there thinking, "Oh FFS, I have to respond to LT and 3 other clients this morning when I want to just drink my coffee and listen to NPR." And I would have thought that tone would come out in the emails. Then again...I don't have to do it much now, but in previous jobs, I had to send some email where I might be particularly exasperated at the person, but I could still come across as very kind and diplomatic (I've had coworkers compliment me on how I phrased emails). So maybe it's like that. Plus, if it's something he's doing because he knows it helps me...he could always choose not to do it if he hated it that much.


And you didn't sound particularly judgey--it may have helped that I already heard Dr. T say some very similar things! So I'd already had time to reflect on them. I do appreciate your comments.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I do feel that Dr. T has been careless or perhaps lacking in the strength to say no to you when he's relaxed so many boundaries.

Also, I agree with this. I admit I feel sort of like I'm special when I can get him to relax something. And/or like he really cares.


This is just one example, but I had that earlier session Thursday. At the start of session, he said he wasn't sure if I'd wanted him to take my Friday session off the schedule, so he kept it open. And that I could just let him know in the morning if I still wanted the full slot or a half slot. I said he could go ahead and fill it if needed, that if I didn't take it, I didn't want him to end up with an empty slot and lose potential income (especially as he'd equated time with money re: email). He said, "Well, I have to do paperwork sometime, so I'd just save it for then."


That evening, I was upset about how session had gone and thought I needed time (like seeing him Friday could make it worse). So I texted to cancel the session and said to keep me on for Monday (he uses texts for scheduling, so I wasn't pushing anything there). He said OK and that he hoped I wasn't too stressed.


Then yesterday morning, I was just sitting here crying and having trouble getting work done thinking about the conflict. So I texted and asked if he by any chance still had 30 minutes available, that if he didn't I completely understood. He offered me 1-1:30, so I suspect he may have just kept it open (or else no one requested a session). But I could see many T's being like, "You canceled it, so I filled it," even if they hadn't filled it, in order to sort of prevent the canceling/rescheduling in the future.

Maybe that's a bad example, but there's a lot of other stuff where, yeah, he caves to me. And it feels good in the moment, but then I wonder about the long-term effects. Part of what made me feel "safe" with him early on was that he seemed strong and consistent on boundaries (as compared to ex-MC, who could be both loose and inconsistent on boundaries). So then when he's loosened some--like not charging me for an email even admitting it took him more than 15 minutes to reply--it both feels nice and makes me feel a bit ill at ease.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This thing about liking/not liking/resenting outside contact came up with my main T (Liz) yesterday. I told her that I am sometimes slightly annoyed when my students contact me, as I would rather not have to answer a bunch of emails. (I teach a course as an adjunct sometimes.) She said that in her experience, having that kind of contact as a professor and as a therapist are two very different things. (She has taught courses for therapists in training in the past.) She said she isn't always like, "HOORAY! IT'S MANATEE!" because sometimes she is busy, but she said that she wants to be there for me and to help me feel like I have supportive, helpful people in my life. Maybe it's easier because usually she prefers phone calls to email, so it's just extra talking, rather than writing? So maybe she's an outlier or a workaholic, but apparently not all therapists see outside contact as a chore.

That seems like a good answer she gave. And it makes me think of one time when I asked Dr. T a while back if he's ever like "Oh, no, now I have to deal with LT" when he looks at his schedule. That I certainly wouldn't expect him to be like, "Yay, it's LT!" He said he can assure me that he's never thought "Oh, no, not LT," when he saw my name on the schedule. Which made me feel better.


Dr. T said yesterday that he prefers talking things true in person/video, like we were doing right that. I said I got that, but sometimes all I'm looking for from an email is just a sentence or two. And I don't think he'd do a 5-minute or 15-minute session. He said no, and that understands those sorts of emails, and they're fine. I do wish he was willing to do brief phone calls or Zooms, even paid, as I'd think that 15 minutes talking would generally be more valuable that 15 minutes of email (which both would likely be $45, though with my current discount, probably $35). But I also understand his not wanting to do a random phone call in addition to his scheduled sessions.

He also said how some therapists (like yours I guess!) do allow regular phone check-ins, then something about "not judging them," but it's not how he chooses to run his practice. I was thinking that ex-MC would fall in that category (and he never charged, even if a call was 45 minutes).

[Rive.]

I am now ambivalent about your T, LT.

The fact that he upped his support for clients, owing to covid, seems to show he cares. Even if it is not something he particularly *wants* to do... but he is willing to go the extra-mile for his clients. My T never ever ups support, covid or not, despite knowing how much I struggle at times. To me, it shows my T doesn’t overly care about me and I am on my own.

However, there are also concerns regarding your T and his ability to self-care / possible burn-out. This is concerning. As a T, he really ought to ensure he has enough to give to his clients and not give-give-give when he has nothing much to give. This would lead to resentment towards his clients and honestly, that is not very professional.

However, I do get your conflicting feelings re this extra care being taken away. But to me, this is because there is a deeper issue... (attachment)


This brings me to the child part vs. insecure attachment thing between the two of you. I don’t think his use of ‘insecure attachment’ is wrong per se. I do think it is linked. What bothers me (and that is from several things he has said and/or done) is how he doesn’t seem very... knowledgeable? Skilled? with regards to other modalities or jargon (terminology) and he kinda shuts you down...

I mean, even if he is not specialised in any particular area (e.g. transference) rather than invalidate you, he could take the lead from you (e.g. child part) and research further if need be. I can see how he is clumsy with you at times and handles things poorly. As a result, you feel shame.

Reading your OP, honestly, the first thing that came into my mind was: what is his training / what are his qualifications? His knowledge-base seems pretty (apologies if this seems judgmental) basic. Hence, I really wonder if he is the best to be able to help you.

His... treatment of you seems trial and error at times. He doesn’t know about a particular area (e.g. stone/transference) and his knee-jerk reaction seems to be defensiveness. This makes you feel insecure and upset – which are very understandable. THEN he seems to catch-up through research or supervision... and makes ‘amends’. But he made you go through, imo, unnecessary hurt and upset.

The problem with this approach, is that he causes you a lot of pain that – had he been more skilled/knowledgeable – could have been avoided. It doesn't have to be this hard.


I get that having been with him for such a long time, it may be hard to want to part but... is he the one best to help you, I now wonder. He is not very relational, he doesn’t seem (to me) to have more than a basic grasp of psychology concepts and kinda drags you along for the ride as he attempts (after a while) to get up to speed with these concepts.

So yes, I am now wondering if he is the best fit for you...

I am not you and it is easy for me to write words on a screen, but I would interview other Ts. And even try out other Ts.

[ElectricManatee]

I think maybe my therapist does these things because of her attachment slant, knowing that at certain stages of the process, waiting can feel nearly impossible and prolongs suffering. My other T does email but not phone calls, and her style of response is more like DBT coaching, but the end result is the same, helping to decrease the between-session emotional pain and showing that she's still there. I do think the boundaries are mostly based on the therapist's personal preference and what they feel is both effective and sustainable for them.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I wonder if what you're running into is Dr. T's lack of experience with relational trauma. He clearly does care about you and wants to help, and he also doesn't seem to understand why you do the things you do and why you feel the way you feel. Or if he does understand, he doesn't seem to know what to do to help you. Reading between the lines, he seems to think your reactions are baffling and disproportionate, and he wants to give you what you want/need but seems doubtful that it will ever be enough. So he gives a little extra (maybe even more than he wants to), but then he feels frustrated that it doesn't have the intended effect. Then he says something that feels shaming to you and thus unwittingly perpetuates the uneasiness of insecure attachment. You seem attracted to the well-meaning parts of him and keep going back to get more of that care but you also get knocked around by his inability to fully understand your dynamics and to actually help you navigate them. This is probably why you seem to be stuck in a rupture/repair cycle that mostly ends with you both staying in the same place.

[nottrustin]

LT, I think the pandemic has effected a lot of long term therapy relationships. Therapists know many people are struggling and their lives and outside coping skills and deterrants are up in the air right now. Plus let's face it our T's lives and norms have also been uprooted and shaken. Some Ts are finding more time on their hands since activities are all cancelled so they find themselves trying to be their more rmfor their clients because they honestly care. Just like this is all new for us it is new for them.

My T has been stressed about her young child. Her husband is a college professor and their daycare closed
So only one person can work at a time. When school started school started she thought it would be helpful as her kiddo is now in Kindergarten. It is just as stressful because th started 2 weeks late, went on full week then had 3 weeks of going 2 days each week, now they are back to 5 partial days bit who knows that could change tomorrow.

There have been days that we have had something scheduled and she had to change last minute. They were going tot the playground so we could have talked whole jer son played. Then they had a huge rain storm so we just to reschedule. In normal times this would have never happened but this is not normal times.

I do understand your confusion on emails. I have always known T is okay with me texting. It was something I asked for early in our relationship and we discussed that she is bad about getting and responding to work emails. Sometimes it takes a couple days other times I get one a few hours later. Lately, she says at the end of appointments to reach out if AI need her support. I thought that meant she would be more aware of work texts and responding. That has not been the case so somewhat frustrating but I keep reminding myself I was aware of this from the beginning.

On a side note what is it about Ts listening to NPR? I have never known a person who listens to NPR however both of my Ts have said whenever they are in their cars they listen to NPR rather than music.

[susannahsays]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

This thing about liking/not liking/resenting outside contact came up with my main T (Liz) yesterday. I told her that I am sometimes slightly annoyed when my students contact me, as I would rather not have to answer a bunch of emails. (I teach a course as an adjunct sometimes.) She said that in her experience, having that kind of contact as a professor and as a therapist are two very different things. (She has taught courses for therapists in training in the past.) She said she isn't always like, "HOORAY! IT'S MANATEE!" because sometimes she is busy, but she said that she wants to be there for me and to help me feel like I have supportive, helpful people in my life. Maybe it's easier because usually she prefers phone calls to email, so it's just extra talking, rather than writing? So maybe she's an outlier or a workaholic, but apparently not all therapists see outside contact as a chore.

I don't intend to tell you how your therapist feels, as I obviously can't know that. However, I don't think wanting to be there for someone precludes emails or other outside contact being a chore. Reminds me of how my sister calls me every day to vent about her frustrations at work. I do want to be there for her and someone she can turn to for this, but that doesn't mean it isn't a bit of a chore. I do it as much as I can anyway because I love my sister and care enough that she needs to vent to tolerate something that is kind of tiring and often boring.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

I don't intend to tell you how your therapist feels, as I obviously can't know that. However, I don't think wanting to be there for someone precludes emails or other outside contact being a chore. Reminds me of how my sister calls me every day to vent about her frustrations at work. I do want to be there for her and someone she can turn to for this, but that doesn't mean it isn't a bit of a chore. I do it as much as I can anyway because I love my sister and care enough that she needs to vent to tolerate something that is kind of tiring and often boring.

I can see that. I think maybe it is like parenting in some ways. There are times when my kid needs me and I would prefer that she didn't (when I am sound asleep certainly springs to mind!), so I suppose putting my needs aside to tend to her is a bit of a chore in that moment. But there are other times when I want to help her because I know a small amount of attention will have a huge impact for her, and those types of interactions often feel good to me too. For example, the other night my kid was in bed and I was relaxing in the other room, and I could hear her coughing and grumbling and then start to cry a little. I think she would have probably gone back to sleep on her own (because we do encourage developmentally appropriate self-soothing), but I went into her room and picked her up because I knew some cuddles would have a big impact while she was sick and miserable. And I was right.

I went into parenthood knowing that there would be times when I had to do things I didn't want to do, and I did it anyway because the pros outweighed the cons for me. I think therapists who allow outside contact within thoughtful boundaries and limits are kind of the same way. If it was a huge annoying burden to them, they just wouldn't do it.

I do think one difference is the message that the therapist sends. I am under no illusions that my T is always waiting for my call and feels absolutely thrilled with our interaction afterward (thinking especially of times when I was particularly angry with her!). I have no way of knowing when she's busy or tired or if it's a particularly bad time, much like my kid didn't know whether I was idly relaxing or busy or asleep the other night. But one of my deep-seated issues is thinking my needs are incredibly unreasonable and make me unlovable, so it wouldn't really be helpful for my T to share those times when it was a bit of a chore. That would probably be a very different story if I felt as though I were entitled to whatever I wanted from whoever whenever. (Same thing with my kid: I weigh her needs and my needs and try to do justice to us both, but figuring out that balance is my job and not hers.)

[JaneTennison1]

It sounds like you are stuck in this same cycle. Rupture and repair can be valuable if it leads somewhere but is it? You want what you want from t and when he can't give it you threaten to leave. My question is, how is this serving you ??

You can leave it is always your right, you can stay and focus on getting what you want. He cannot be anything other than the therapist he is. So you either accept that and carry on or accept it and move on. Why keep bashing him over the head for everything he isn't?? What are you avoiding? What are you gaining?