[smileygal]

I think it is difficult to change our reactions without first at least some awareness around a) what types of things we are mostly over reacting to (i.e what are our main triggers) and b) the feelings behind the over reaction e.g. feelings of rejection, being forgotten etc. It can then be helpful to recognize where that feeling may have originated (but not absolutely necessary and doesn't need a big deep dive into the past) e.g my mother rejected me as a child, I was forgotten about alot as a child) This allows us to bring more awareness to the triggers then when it arises in the future. Developing an ability to recognize and then stand back from our reactions can be helpful. I think you mentioned he also worked alot with mindfulness LT so this may be a good route to try.

This is just one way that can be helpful I am sure there are also others that posters will share.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

This is something that rubs me the wrong way. You are 100% correct. The point in navigating the world is deciding for yourself what works and what doesn't, not behaving yourself or dulling down your reaction to avoid the threat of losing someone in your life or having them disapprove. So much focus and care is on what your therapist needs you to be LT.

When I said he was unethical I didn't even mean in increased support or how he supports you, most people have moments of needing more and needing less, I mean in his being out of his depth in helping you. So much time spent on how your relationship with him looks and I just wonder what is the core. What is the feeling. You don't have to tell me I'm not asking just saying when I read your posts LT I see distraction and protection. I use those techniques myself. Getting to the real core takes time but I really hope you can because I think healing that heals all this outside surface distraction noise.

My emetophobia is a distraction, my constant fighting with T was a distraction when I started work with EMDR T we went right to the heart and in that, the rest healed. I hope you can find the heart of things and I hope T helps but from everything you describe he does not sound skilled enough to see around the distractions.

You make some good points here. My T has said before that he tries to get me to understand the effect I could have on other people in my life--hence his giving some of the feedback. (Though some of it is just his own stuff, clearly). However, he has admitted that he doesn't know what other people are thinking and that they may not react the way he does.

This led to an issue a few years ago where he suggested that my H might be feeling a certain negative thing about me, because he (Dr. T) would if he were in H's position. So I got all worried about it, then checked in with my H about it, and he was like, "No, I don't feel that, what is he talking about?"

Thanks for explaining the unethical thing--I had misunderstood.

When you talk about the core--do you mean like my core issues? What is leading to me to, say, want to check in with him? To feel insecure in other relationships, too? He made a comment yesterday about how I should be able to trust in the relation now, with us having worked together for more than 4 years. I said I still worried about the security of the relationship with my H, that we've been together 16 years (married 14), he took actual vows, we live together, and we say "I love you" multiple times a day. That made him just be like, "oh."

I'm sure I've mentioned that I have emetophobia, too. Can I ask (if you don't want to share here, feel free to PM me) what you thought that was a distraction from? I'm just wondering. As I've dealt with that since I was a kid.

I feel like we're getting to some sort of core thing right now. I have no idea if he'll be able to handle that. It seems he sees my focusing on my role in things (instead of just his) as a breakthrough of sorts. So maybe that can lead somewhere? I told him yesterday that I wanted to make sure we didn't just drop this thread, even as other life stuff comes up. That we keep working on it. And he seemed to agree with that.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

"Stifle yourself, eh there, Edith?" -- Archie Bunker

LT - you said today here in more than one place that you anticipate what T will say in response to you. Also that you are often disappointed in his responses. When exactly do you do this? Are there long pauses when you guys talk? Or do you come in with a pre-rehearsed script? Or is this all after the fact. I just cant imagine any scenario where i would even WANT my t to say something specific, let alone remember what it was, in the moment. Like you kinda set him up to say overreacting, while hoping he wouldnt say it? That seems like a dishonest transaction, at the very least. Like playing a rigged chess game. What would it prove?

I do often plan out things I want to talk about beforehand, like I'll come in with some notes. Like "I want to bring up x topic, here's something I want to say."

It's a good question of whether I set him up to fail, in a sense. In the sense of the overreacting exchange, I really did not expect him to say "well, you were overreacting." I was trying to bring up something that had been bothering me and actually thought that, if anything, he'd say something like, "No, that's not what I meant."

And there can be some long pauses when we talk, too, like he'll stop to think about things for a minute, or I might. So sometimes I might anticipate what he could say in there.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

...I did say today with the check-in texts that it seemed like he just expected me to psychically know when they became too much for him. How it was particularly difficult for me because it was something I had even checked in about. That's been an issue in my outside life, too, if I check in with, say, a friend or my H on whether something is OK, they say it's fine, and then at some random time they suddenly decide it's not fine, and I had no way of knowing that. It's harder for me because I did try to make sure it was OK.

So - are you not picking up on social cues?

Also, why is it "harder on YOU" in particular? Is there anger there? Like you called dibs and now the other person is saying you cant have a permanent dibs?

If its "just" aspergers, i would think one would be oblivious of the other's irritation, and not particularly care either. But maybe thats just how Sheldon wouldve reacted! Okay and me. People do NOT like me playing robot. Even if i tell them, im not playing.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

You make some good points here. My T has said before that he tries to get me to understand the effect I could have on other people in my life--hence his giving some of the feedback. (Though some of it is just his own stuff, clearly). However, he has admitted that he doesn't know what other people are thinking and that they may not react the way he does.

This led to an issue a few years ago where he suggested that my H might be feeling a certain negative thing about me, because he (Dr. T) would if he were in H's position. So I got all worried about it, then checked in with my H about it, and he was like, "No, I don't feel that, what is he talking about?"

Thanks for explaining the unethical thing--I had misunderstood.

When you talk about the core--do you mean like my core issues? What is leading to me to, say, want to check in with him? To feel insecure in other relationships, too? He made a comment yesterday about how I should be able to trust in the relation now, with us having worked together for more than 4 years. I said I still worried about the security of the relationship with my H, that we've been together 16 years (married 14), he took actual vows, we live together, and we say "I love you" multiple times a day. That made him just be like, "oh."

I'm sure I've mentioned that I have emetophobia, too. Can I ask (if you don't want to share here, feel free to PM me) what you thought that was a distraction from? I'm just wondering. As I've dealt with that since I was a kid.

I feel like we're getting to some sort of core thing right now. I have no idea if he'll be able to handle that. It seems he sees my focusing on my role in things (instead of just his) as a breakthrough of sorts. So maybe that can lead somewhere? I told him yesterday that I wanted to make sure we didn't just drop this thread, even as other life stuff comes up. That we keep working on it. And he seemed to agree with that.

Ugh, I also don’t like that he said that you should have more trust in the relationship. I truly don’t think he understands attachment and the effects it can have on relationships and trust. I’ve been with my T for 7 (!!) years now, and if she said that to me, I would be really hurt.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I think it is difficult to change our reactions without first at least some awareness around a) what types of things we are mostly over reacting to (i.e what are our main triggers) and b) the feelings behind the over reaction e.g. feelings of rejection, being forgotten etc. It can then be helpful to recognize where that feeling may have originated (but not absolutely necessary and doesn't need a big deep dive into the past) e.g my mother rejected me as a child, I was forgotten about alot as a child) This allows us to bring more awareness to the triggers then when it arises in the future. Developing an ability to recognize and then stand back from our reactions can be helpful. I think you mentioned he also worked alot with mindfulness LT so this may be a good route to try.

This is just one way that can be helpful I am sure there are also others that posters will share.

These are good points, thanks.

[Quietmind 2]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I think it is difficult to change our reactions without first at least some awareness around a) what types of things we are mostly over reacting to (i.e what are our main triggers) and b) the feelings behind the over reaction e.g. feelings of rejection, being forgotten etc. It can then be helpful to recognize where that feeling may have originated (but not absolutely necessary and doesn't need a big deep dive into the past) e.g my mother rejected me as a child, I was forgotten about alot as a child) This allows us to bring more awareness to the triggers then when it arises in the future. Developing an ability to recognize and then stand back from our reactions can be helpful. I think you mentioned he also worked alot with mindfulness LT so this may be a good route to try.

This is just one way that can be helpful I am sure there are also others that posters will share.

And....so I feel... Dr T seems shaming in how he tries to point the reactions out. That's probably really reliable in triggering more upset.

Seeming or actual "lack" of distress tolerance comes from somewhere, and he's not helping. Folks don't just magically learn emotional regulation or distress tolerance

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel almost like LT is made to feel like a woman deemed "hysterical" back during Freud's time.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by Quietmind 2

Folks don't just magically learn emotional regulation or distress tolerance

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel almost like LT is made to feel like a woman deemed "hysterical" back during Freud's time.

This I would ask him to tell you how he is actually helping you with your reactions other than just pointing them out to you and shaming you for them.

You cannot just 'will yourself to regulate your emotions

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by smileygal

This I would ask him to tell you how he is actually helping you with your reactions other than just pointing them out to you and shaming you for them.

You cannot just 'will yourself to regulate your emotions

This would be a good question for him, thanks.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Quietmind 2

And....so I feel... Dr T seems shaming in how he tries to point the reactions out. That's probably really reliable in triggering more upset.

Seeming or actual "lack" of distress tolerance comes from somewhere, and he's not helping. Folks don't just magically learn emotional regulation or distress tolerance

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel almost like LT is made to feel like a woman deemed "hysterical" back during Freud's time.

These are good points, thanks.

What doesn't help here is also that ex-MC tended to suggest that my reactions tended to be the issue in my marriage, not what H said or did. In reality, I'm sure it's a combination. But it often felt like he'd be implying--or sometimes saying directly--that it was my anxiety that was the problem (see your reference of males referring to women as "hysterical"). Or if H and I had an argument, his main point would be "well, you got through it, you're still together." Rather than addressing the root cause of the argument (especially when they're recurring ones).

Hm...and that's very similar to Dr. T's thing about how ruptures and conflicts ultimately make relationships stronger. And that I should trust that he wouldn't just terminate me or take away something (like email privileges) unless I either did something really bad or without multiple discussions about it beforehand. And the thing about trusting in the relationship.

I'm thinking out loud here, so maybe this doesn't seem to tie together. But I think it's "your (over)reactions are the problem" and "you need to just trust in the relationship" (whether it be my relationship with Dr. T, my H, whoever) that tie in together, because it all puts the blame on me and my failings.

But none of this is giving me the *tools* to trust in the relationship. And it's also putting the blame on me, in a sense, for not trusting. When isn't some of it potentially on the other person to help me feel secure in it? (Yes, I know, I can't rely on another person to make me feel secure....)

And I'm sure it's completely shocking (not) that I got messages in childhood that I'm oversensitive. But not really tools from my parents to overcome that. Like my mom might have said not to cry in front of other people (and acting like it was the worst thing ever), but didn't teach me how to contain my emotions. So the first time I started crying in front of a boss at work or a boyfriend, my thoughts went to "Oh, no, now I've messed this up. I'm going to get fired/broken up with, etc."

OK, I need to think on some of this more.... And ex-T seemed critical of my reacting too strongly to things as well. But I think some of it comes down to people (T's and outside life) expecting me to magically be emotionally strong/resilient and trusting in relationships without helping me figure out the tools to do so. Like I'm being thrown on a sailboat and expected to figure out how to sail without any instruction.

[SlumberKitty]

FWIW LT, in IOP my IOP T Joanna and I spent a lot of time on distress tolerance, but she didn't really teach me tools about how to increase my distress tolerance, I was just supposed to magically "get it" and be able to do it. Whereas I think it is a skill that needs to be learned, practiced, developed. I was given lots of messages as a child as well about not having emotions but maybe for different reasons from your folks. My Mom has Bipolar and it was unmedicated for all of my childhood. So her emotions were so BIG that everyone else in the family had to have small or no emotions because there were no room for them. (Sorry, not trying to make this about me, just thinking out loud here!) And too, I know what it is like to cry in front of a boss, and to feel like I have totally screwed up and that I am going to get fired. I don't know if you remember but a couple of weeks ago I word vomited all over my boss, twice. Not a good look. I was so sure I was going to be canned because this company does not do progressive discipline. One day someone is here and the next they aren't. I had no idea how to repair what just happened. Luckily, I took my cue from her, which she mostly ignored it, and so I just pretended it didn't happen either. But I am trying to decipher what happened so I can stop it before it happens again. And I say all of that because I think, and you can gently correct me if I am wrong, you might do this too. You might spend a lot of time, trying to work out how to not recreate a negative situation with another person, whether it is Dr. T or your H or whomever. I can see that in myself as well. (Maybe I am projecting...forgive me if that is the case!) And maybe that is why you kind of anticipate what Dr. T might say in response to something. I don't think I do that mostly because I have no clue how others might respond to me, that's the Asperger's in me, but I could see how that might be like a way to get some sort of reassurance, maybe....I'm not sure if that is the right word. To me, at least, that behavior seems totally logical! Of course when Dr. T does not respond how you anticipate he might, it leads to all sorts of feelings and emotions which then you have to manage and also try not to irritate the situation more! That sounds very stressful. I am neither Pro Dr. T nor Anti Dr. T because I simply don't have enough information about him to make that sort of determination. If he is generally helpful to you, then I think it is worth going to him and working through these things. I believe it could be frustrating to have to work through these scenarios again and again, but like you said, that even in your relationship with your H you need some reassurance and you've been with him much longer! I am glad you told that to Dr. T. Because he may not have the same background of what I assume are trust/vulnerability/attachment/abandonment issues as you do and may not be able (yet) to understand the depth of them. But he can learn! He is smart. And although I hate when he says something to you that is upsetting or unkind, like you "overreacting" (that would have bothered me, but to be honest with you, my current T Julieanne told me before I was overreacting, but she also said I had good reason to overreact and our work was to learn to react appropriately, so I didn't feel shamed by it, well maybe a little) I think he does have your best interests at heart, even if it doesn't always come across that way. He does seem to have some random boundaries, but my T has the opposite problem where I don't think she has enough boundaries! EEK! So both can be a problem! We work with the problems we have in front of us and hope to be better on the other side. I think it is good that you are pondering these things and working on them and I want to encourage you because I think you are doing a good job. Well done, LT. You are being very brave and vulnerable and that is not easy to do. I probably rambled a bit here so I hope that you were maybe able to take something from it, but if not, please know that I am thinking of you and sending you hugs and good wishes. Kit

[zoiecat]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

These are good points, thanks.

I'm thinking out loud here, so maybe this doesn't seem to tie together. But I think it's "your (over)reactions are the problem" and "you need to just trust in the relationship" (whether it be my relationship with Dr. T, my H, whoever) that tie in together, because it all puts the blame on me and my failings.

But none of this is giving me the *tools* to trust in the relationship. And it's also putting the blame on me, in a sense, for not trusting. When isn't some of it potentially on the other person to help me feel secure in it? (Yes, I know, I can't rely on another person to make me feel secure....)

OK, I need to think on some of this more.... And ex-T seemed critical of my reacting too strongly to things as well. But I think some of it comes down to people (T's and outside life) expecting me to magically be emotionally strong/resilient and trusting in relationships without helping me figure out the tools to do so. Like I'm being thrown on a sailboat and expected to figure out how to sail without any instruction.

I don't think "blame" is the right word. No one is blaming you for how you feel. Yes, it may be an overreaction compared to a certain population of people but the "blame" can also not be placed on the other person. You cannot control other people, you can only control yourself and the way you respond to life. As your T says, it is only mildly irritating. He also has the skills to speak up when things are starting to irritate him in order to maintain his own distress tolerance. While you may not have been taught how to handle emotions by your parents, he is being a great example of how it is done in a healthy way.

I'm not quite sure if your T just doesn't know how to teach you distress tolerance skills, maybe he has and you have turned them down or not explored or practiced enough such as DBT and Mindfulness , or he is waiting for you to want to learn. You mentioned somewhere that a T recommended DBT and honestly I think this would be a great class for you to sign up for. Yes, it is at least a 6 month commitment, but you will learn so many skills to deal with life when things will undoubtedly not go your way, relationship skills, distress tolerance and self-awareness. It will also provide you that "required" email contact you desire when difficult situations arise.

It really struck me as maybe a breakthrough moment when he said to you that this was the first time you expressed your want to NOT react the way you do. IMO he is a laid back, not very helpful T that just allows you to use him as a sounding board but that is only based on what you write. I do know that many therapists will not work any harder than the client. Now obviously you are very involved in your therapy but again, I can't really tell if you truly desire to improve yourself or just continue therapy to express your daily concerns to get validation that your feelings are acceptable. Yes, we all have the right to fell however we do, but wouldn't it me nice to have the skills to think differently, respond differently, and not feel all the pain of our emotions. This is not going to improve by just talking and getting validation. That takes a lot of work, sitting with and really feeling the emotion, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, and practicing distress tolerance skills.


Anyway, if he can help you with this he may be waiting for you to admit that you need to change your own reactions in order to change your life. He may be waiting for you to push for him to help you . Help you learn skills, not just providing validation.

When isn't some of it potentially on the other person to help me feel secure in it? (Yes, I know, I can't rely on another person to make me feel secure....)

While it might be nice for everyone to treat us with kid gloves and be able to read our minds and respond the way we want them to because they are always consciously communicating with our feelings in mind...the world doesn't work that way. The other person has their own autonomy and issues going on and are doing their best to get through life while dragging their issues with them as well. I would say we can only expect that kind of treatment from loved ones and even then only part of the time. Relationships are a two way street. Maybe that is why you seem to enjoy therapy....because it is meant to be a one-way street?

Sorry I have been rambling. I am currently struggling with my own feelings on a situation at work that I have to tolerate and deal with and have absolutely no control over. It is totally consuming me and dragging me down a deep hole. I am trying my best but it is hard. My T made me sit with the feelings yesterday and tried to help me with skill options and we did EMDR on it as my reactions of frustration feel exactly the same as I felt and still feel when dealing with my mother. I know I have to get over my past to better tolerate the present. Although my T also validated my feelings, we both know that that is not going to make me feel any better.

[ElectricManatee]

I haven't caught up on the entire thread, but there are a ton of DBT resources online. I'm sure an organized DBT program/curriculum would be ideal, but it's definitely the kind of thing you can at least get started on by yourself. Here's a distress tolerance explanation that I found online, for example.

[SlumberKitty]

Thanks for sharing EM!

[nottrustin]

LT what I find the most disturbing is that he doesn't understand distress tolerance. That seems to be fundamental when it comes to trauma therapy. When I started seeing my current therapist we realized early on that until we could open my window of stress tolerance we would never realy be able to deal with my trauma to the point it no longer effected my life. We have been working on it for almost 5 years. We have made some progrss but it takes time and a lot of hard work. She is amazing in very gradually helping me to increase my window.

LT's therapist is not a trauma therapist and he is not practising trauma therapy.

[ElectricManatee]

I keep thinking about his change in attitude when you switched from talking about stuff between the two of you to talking about stuff with your daughter. That seems like such an interesting observation. When I think about "the therapeutic relationship," I think of it as a relationship that is therapeutic, not just the relationship between a therapist and a client. It's different from other relationships for a very good reason. But he seems to think that the relationship between the two of you needs to be just good enough and comfortable enough that you can talk freely about stressors and relationships outside therapy. It's like you're trying to rap and he's trying to conduct a symphony and you're both just getting pissed off at each other.

I keep coming back to this thread because I feel this urge for you to see how his approach is incompatible with the things you seem to want to do right now. Like I want you to borrow my T for a couple of weeks to see what I'm talking about. You're a duck paddling furiously underwater, but it's like you only have one leg so you're going in circles. I don't at all want this to feel like a criticism, just that I wish you could get what you're looking for and I'm not sure you don't know what you don't know. You know?

ETA: I'm not even anti-Dr. T if he's useful. I just feel like the two of you aren't speaking the same language at times.

[nottrustin]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

LT's therapist is not a trauma therapist and he is not practising trauma therapy.

Which is why I wonder if he will ever understand her limitations pf emotional tolerance.

LT, would you potentially be able to see a second therapist? I understand the reluctance to give up on a therapist who you feel connected to but what about seeing a trauma therapist even if short term

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by nottrustin

Which is why I wonder if he will ever understand her limitations pf emotional tolerance.

LT, would you potentially be able to see a second therapist? I understand the reluctance to give up on a therapist who you feel connected to but what about seeing a trauma therapist even if short term

He has said he'd be open to my doing EMDR with someone else while seeing him, so that could be an option. I'll look into it. I had contacted an internal family systems therapist maybe a year and a half ago, and Dr. T also seemed open to my working with both of them at once. Though I don't know if I burned the bridge with that therapist by saying I wasn't ready to do that work at that time--I feel like I left him hanging for a while. I'd feel reluctant to reach out again unless I was definitely ready.

[SlumberKitty]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

He has said he'd be open to my doing EMDR with someone else while seeing him, so that could be an option. I'll look into it. I had contacted an internal family systems therapist maybe a year and a half ago, and Dr. T also seemed open to my working with both of them at once. Though I don't know if I burned the bridge with that therapist by saying I wasn't ready to do that work at that time--I feel like I left him hanging for a while. I'd feel reluctant to reach out again unless I was definitely ready.

FWIW, I think you will know if/when you need/desire a second T. I think you will feel ready. Trust yourself and your instincts. No one knows you better than you. You're doing great. Hang in there. HUGS Kit

LT, what's it like for you to read people's comments which are pretty consistently critical of your therapist? Does it get a bit oppressive?

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by comrademoomoo

LT, what's it like for you to read people's comments which are pretty consistently critical of your therapist? Does it get a bit oppressive?

Honestly, it can be challenging. I'm trying to read them with an open mind. And I also haven't been posting in this thread in the long stretch where things had gone really well with him, so it's just showing the negative.

And it's easy from the outside to be like, "yes, you need to change T's!" I try so hard not to advise people of that because I know it can be really difficult to hear and often not helpful. Would someone tell me, for example, "You need to change husbands!" Well, maybe. But it just seems like with T's, it's easy to say "Just find a new one!" when it isn't quite that simple, for multiple reasons.

And, OK, in my write-up of Monday's session, I left out the part where I mentioned to him some of the comments on here, then started crying and saying, "But I don't want to see a different therapist--I want to work on this with you." And then asking if he had the tools to help me. (He started talking about a couple techniques, but it was a conversation to be continued later.)

[ElectricManatee]

I do think when/if it becomes time to change therapists, you'll know it in your heart. You'll just feel it. My wife and I had this conversation about her job for years, where she thought maybe she needed to go for a promotion for X, Y, or Z reason, but she was also really happy with the job she was currently doing. I told her that she would know when it was time to move on, and several years later she did. (She also ended up leaving that workplace and industry altogether, but that's a different story!)

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I do think when/if it becomes time to change therapists, you'll know it in your heart. You'll just feel it. My wife and I had this conversation about her job for years, where she thought maybe she needed to go for a promotion for X, Y, or Z reason, but she was also really happy with the job she was currently doing. I told her that she would know when it was time to move on, and several years later she did. (She also ended up leaving that workplace and industry altogether, but that's a different story!)

Thanks, EM. I thought it was time to leave him when we had a big rupture a few years ago and actually terminated. I saw another T for a couple sessions. There was a potential medical condition I was concerned about at the time (that ultimately didn't turn out to be anything), and I realized that if it was a thing, it was Dr. T that I would want to talk to about it (this hit me on the way to the other T's office, and I drove there in tears, went through the session--oddly, with little emotion--and emailed Dr. T as soon as I left...). So I realized I still trusted him and wanted his support. And so I went back.

With ex-MC, when the one major rupture happened, I kept trying for a few months after. But I could just tell it was done. Nothing felt the same--the trust was gone, and I didn't seem able to get it back. So we left.

That's a good comparison with jobs. With past jobs, I hit a point where I just sort of stopped caring as much, putting in less effort, and then I knew it was time to go. With one, it was like, "We just had a 15-minute debate over whether this comma should be there or not...how is this important in the grand scheme of things?" That led me to want to leave the field, actually, and I took steps to make it happen, but it didn't really pan out.

Hope your wife is happy where she is now!

[nottrustin]

I hope I never come across as saying someboy should leave their therapist. I think you have a therapist that is beneficial to you. I recognize your frustrartion which is why I recommend seeing a second person. I have seen and experienced the benefits of two people with very different strengths and approaches.