Couch 237: Social Rules

For what it is worth, there are some articles on attachment styles and therapists and how the therapist's style can clash with the client's. What you describe seems like an anxious style running into a avoidant style. The more you demand reassurance, the more the other resists being sucked in. Assurance does not appease and in fact often it seems it only adds to the anxiety when it isn't done in the exact way you want. And he has been fairly upfront that he isn't much of a psychodynamic work with the transference sort

I agree that it would ultimately help you the most to dig into why you feel the need to email and get upset when he doesn't respond or doesn't give you the response you are looking for. It does appear that it is becoming more and more about him, probably because the emails you are sending are about him and not yourself. Any good therapist should be prioritizing the client and not their own problems. Mine always says, "you are not here to entertain me."

Since he doesn't seem to be going down that road, why don't you try bringing up exactly what you said above. Ask him to help you figure out why you feel the need to send the emails and how you can get past it. That should be the goal here; not trying to get him to respond to your emails in a certain way.

I made some of these stars this evening to hide around town this weekend:

They're so sweet, Artie! I love the way you have used the googly eyes.

Exactly, and yet this question seems chronically overlooked.



This sounds like a strong push from you to want more from him. This could be really rich material where you work out what is going on for you. This desire is information and your respective responses could provide yet further information.


I push against my therapist very hard and I can be really nasty to her. The work for me is not whether I can be successful at hurting her (although I still try), but to work out what is happening for me when I shove her. She might use her response to my push (typically, her response is to either feel defensive or to want to rush in and rescue me) as an indication of something, but I remain at the centre. For example, she might say something like "I can feel you pushing me and I feel that I need to defend myself. Usually when you push like this, you are feeling vulnerable. Are we getting close to something frightening?" On a bad day, she gets angry and fights back, but never mind that for now. Similarly, whether you can get him to acquiesce to your desires (about email, standing up, handshakes, notification about returning to remote sessions, etc) is not a negotiation that means very much, not least because the nature of desire means that our list of desires is endless. It is the fact that you want so strongly which indicates stuff about you. He should be skilled enough to look at your push for more without retreating and prioritising his own (defensive, avoidant, judgmental?) response.

To be honest, his approach sounds basic and he sounds dim. My sense is that you could really get in amongst the relational stuff if you were provided with some strong guidance. You are bright. You have lots of energy for therapy and you are able to think in great detail about what is happening. I think you are a more skilled client than he is therapist. I feel frustrated because I don't like dim men doing bright women a disservice so maybe I am projecting my stuff all over your situation.

If you're projecting, Comrade, then you're in good company! I feel all kinds of frustrated with LT's therapist and want to give him a good firm shaking too knock some sense into him. (I would say a good talking-to, except I'm not sure that would be a effective.)

LT, what you're getting from therapy with him is a band-aid at best. Plus, the relationship stuff that you could be working on, that is for some therapists the meat of therapy, is being ignored. You're even being put off when you bring it up. I think that, with a skilled therapist who works with and through the relationship stuff, you could make so much more progress.

I went to therapy for years and only focused on managing my symptoms and dealing with crises as they came up. It wasn't until I truly opened up and started this type of relational therapy that I made real progress in improving my depression. It took about 2 years, but after that my depression was so much better that I would say it was almost gone. I had suffered from severe depression for more than 20 years at that point (I held my demanding job, barely, but had no personal life).

You should make the decision that is right for you. Don't do anything based on some randos on the Interwebz. I'm just sharing my story because it might be relevant.

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These are so cute! I'd be delighted to find one.

This is what happened to me too! I was actually ready to do the relational work sooner, but I didn't know what I needed or what that looked like until I blundered into it with my current T. The symptoms started to resolve on their own once I could see the roots of everything clearly.

I think LT trying to make Dr. T into the therapist she needs is like a parentified child situation -- she has a sense of what is missing and is trying desperately to create it herself when she probably isn't really in a position to be able to do that.

I'm knitting some fingerless gloves to give to ToddlerManatee's preschool teachers. I must really like them to deal with all these tiny finger tubes...

Yeah, I do wonder if I'm doing this. I'm trying to get from him what I didn't get from my dad. And I've been getting lots of support and validation from Dr. T recently. But now it feels like I've messed up, and I don't know how to get back in his good graces, aside from leaving him alone. And that's really painful for me.

It also feels like I was "bad." I know I have the whole "good girl" thing from childhood, where I had to follow the rules (in general and people's individual rules) in order to be loved and accepted. And my mom gave me the message that annoying (or "irritating," to use his word) someone is one of the worst things. I did tell Dr. T that earlier this week, and he seemed to get it. Maybe?

So even now, when I feel I broke the rules, it's like, "Well, there goes the love and support." It feels like it's my fault because I wasn't perfect. Like, I ruined something else. When I know much of this is about Dr. T's weaknesses and personal/therapeutic boundaries (and also that he can't be my parent).

I'd love to see a pic when they're done, I never could get the hang of knitting and admire the heck outta those who can do it!

eta: how DO you keep the yarn on the needles without hooks?

Boy do I (still) relate to that "good girl" thing. Big time. Even at work still, when I call a member about their email they sent and they start yelling at me my immediate go-to inner response is "Oh no I'm in trouble" and I feel myself start to cry. Most times anymore I can stop it before I start crying but every now & then I still get a little teary. The "Oh no I'm in trouble, it's all my fault, they don't love me anymore, I'm not good enough" has nothing to do with the stranger on the phone of course but the inside reaction is there nonetheless, little Artie being afraid of the same thing - loss of love and support. It's huge. (I think now in retrospect, going on 6 months out from stopping therapy, I'm starting to understand that maybe I just hit the end of L's capacity for abandonment/relationship work when her response became "I'm not your mother or grandmother" "stop making this about me" and "I don't work that way.")

I wished I had somebody in my life that I could just vent to and hug right now... my partner yells at me constantly. He blames me for him getting angry and being depressed all the time. Yesterday, I was drunk and talked back to some of his accusations. Today, I'm being told I'm an evil being deserving of bullying and physical violence. If I didn't depend on him to have a decent life, I'd probably leave.

Handknit fingerless gloves are some of my favorite things. What a lovely gift.

Hugs, CNS, I'm really sorry. Whatever you said to him, you certainly don't deserve to be told what he said to you.

Hugs, Artie. I'm sorry you deal with this, too, and that it affects you at work. My most recent non-T Good Girl reaction was when I was picking up a prescription for H at the CVS drive-thru. I'd only used it once before. There's a little drawer where I had to put my ID (pain meds) and payment. I put it there, the pharmacy tech didn't do anything for a minute, so I started to push the drawer in, thinking maybe I needed to do that. She said "Please don't do that" in a rather harsh tone, and I said, "I'm sorry, I didn't know." I felt bad about it the whole ride home. Told Dr. T about it as an example.

And it sounds like it was the right time to stop with L when she was saying those things. Ex-T once said, "I can't be your mother or your friend," and it was incredibly painful. I know Dr. T doesn't work in that modality either, but I'm thankful he hasn't said something like that (just other harsh things instead!)

I asked Dr. T if he had any openings for 30 minutes virtual tomorrow (he works a few hours on Sundays, all virtual), fully expecting him to say no. To my surprise, he offered me a 9 am. I figure I'm trying to do things in his preferred way, session rather than email. Hoping it helps some (and doesn't make it worse!). I'm going to a concert tomorrow night, so I'm hoping we can talk a few things through, and I can feel a bit better before I go. And if it goes poorly, well, then the concert will hopefully help me feel better!

I hope tomorrow's half session goes well and that you have fun at the concert, LT!

Hugs if wanted, CNS. I agree with LT you don't deserve any of those things he said.

Making smaller ones now too, and I think I like these better than the bigger ones:

Thanks, Artie! And I like the star keychains!

Finally my sister is here and it feels so much better to have someone else in the house. I feel like I can focus on something besides how miserable I am with grief.

We’re starting the Great Clean-out of the house tomorrow, though, and that’s going to be very tough.

I'm glad you have some support there. I was wondering how you were doing. Hugs, if wanted.

It will be tough and sad and awful and funny and sad again. When cleaning out my mother's stuff - we were crying and we kept finding candles -she must have had 200 of them (their electricity went out every so often) - so it got to where finding candles would have us laughing. It isn't a direct course - grief is all over the board.

I'm glad your sister is there to help, ATAT.

I never went through my mother's house. She lived in Texas and I had already been away for almost six weeks at that point, maybe longer? I was way past overwhelmed and my imagination could not grasp anything I might find that would make the whole enterprise worthwhile.

I did look for old photos but couldn't find any. I took her wedding ring set from the jewelry box, gave all the food in the house to her friend, and the realtor arranged for a company to come in and sell or donate the rest. Oh, I did ship a lamp to her boyfriend's sister. I shipped home 3 afghans my great aunts had made for the family in the 1970s and a few small things. It's been 3.5 years and I can't say I regret my decision.

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