Couch 241: Twin primes!

Fwiw, LT, I would have screamed “I ****ing know that” at that guy YEARS ago. You’ve been Patience on a monument.

Better late than never?

I think this guy is a jerk in general but have you considered going back and looking at your reaction whenever he sets a boundary or to how the reaction to mc and his boundaries caused you to leave him? This seems to be a pattern with you and mc and this guy. I think the problem is they don't seem to be able to set a boundary and keep it in place and it then gets all messy.

What's the boundary this time though? That she's not allowed to have or tell him her feelings if they involve him? Or talk about their relationship?

Yes, I feel like the boundary here is "You should have known I'd be uncomfortable with this." But he's told me before that something might make him uncomfortable, but it's still OK to talk about it. Even he said yesterday, early in the session, how the love thing is like a big matzoh ball in the room. Like it's something hanging out there that needs to be talked about.

I'm pretty sure he was making a Seinfeld reference, to an ep where George said "I love you" to a woman he was dating, and she didn't say anything back. (I think she said, "I'm hungry, let's get something to eat.") He told Jerry, who said, "That's a big matzoh ball hanging out there!" Then George thought maybe she hadn't heard him because she said she has hearing loss on the side where he was sitting. He told her again later, and she said, "I know, I heard you the first time."

Oh, great, I'm George Costanza....

Like NP said, I'm not fully sure what the boundary is here, aside from telling him something that I suspected would make him uncomfortable. But I agree that both he and ex-MC were bad with setting boundaries and being consistent with them. Dr. T seems like he prides himself on having clear boundaries, but he really doesn't in many areas.

Email is one because it's very much up to his whims when he charges for one (well, he didn't for most of the pandemic). He won't say anything like "You can send x amount of words per week/month" or "x number of emails." It's just some arbitrary amount in his head that's too much. And I can think of a time or two prepandemic where he said, "I normally would have charged you for this email, but I'm choosing not to." And he's said before that he only replies in the morning (unless it's like a scheduling thing, which is different), but then he'll sometimes respond in the evening.

And other stuff. Ex-MC was really bad about it, and part of what led to our final rupture was that I called him out on it. He said something like, "I've always been very clear and consistent on my boundaries with you and H," and I was like, "Oh, now you're calling boundaries into play?" And said how he hadn't been consistent at all. Which of course he denied.

In the beginning, I thought Dr. T did have clear and consistent boundaries, but I've come to realize that they are neither clear nor consistent. I'm sure he'd still claim that they are.

I think this is a growing opportunity, either way. Either you find the power within yourself to walk away, or you hang in there and focus on your reaction to his boundaries. He will likely never be the therapist YOU need. Because what you need from him is not something he is willing to give. The old saying “trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip” comes to mind.

How do you respond when he is clear and firm about them?

This "sabotage" comment is interesting to me. Did he give you any more context? Or did he share what he told the other therapists? From my perspective, you're showing remarkable restraint on this issue, so what is the sabotage? (Or maybe I'm way more unhinged in my therapy than I ever even considered! ) I wonder to what degree the advice he is getting is colored by the way he tells the story? Or maybe he asked for feedback on r/coldfishtherapists....

It is grey and drizzly here which is not helping the hike we had planned to go on today. Trying to decide whether to go anyway or not. We probably won't because it would be embarrassing to need a group of old ladies rescued after one of us slipped in mud and broke a hip or something. I think all of us have had at least on body part replaced - I am the youngest out of the group and I am not young. Hopefully the xmas day hike will be drier.

First, LOL to r/coldfishtherapists!

I also wonder about how he told the story about me. He must have mentioned ex-MC and the teacher (from high school), because the person said I had a pattern. I'm unclear whether this was from a listserv posting or a regular colleague (was a male, I know). I should have asked what he said about me.

Thanks for saying I'm showing restraint. I'm really unclear as to what he's afraid of--even if, say, I wanted to say "I love you" every time I leave (and I don't! Which I've told him repeatedly, it was just an example), all he would need to say is, "I'm not comfortable with that."

I'm under the impression that he thinks the sabotage is my knowing he would be uncomfortable with my sharing the love feelings and then talking more about it (that's apparently the issue this time vs. before, that I keep bringing it up now), plus knowing he wouldn't say it back. So like I'm saying/doing something that I know will ultimately hurt me. And, I guess, intentionally messing up a relationship.

I have been thinking about this, and I wonder if there is some level of truth to it? Not that I want to blow up the relationship entirely. But that I am tired of feeling so attached to him and having trouble reducing my sessions. And it's like, maybe I needed confirmation that he doesn't feel those things, or at least won't express them? Like, maybe in some twisted way, I needed him to hurt me so that I could pull back (perhaps leave) more easily?

Isn't this something he/we should be examining? If he thinks I'm sabotaging it and repeating a pattern, isn't *that* what we should be discussing--the pattern, what's going on with me in it--rather than his feelings? Like pull back and look at the bigger picture? Yeah, I know, he's probably not skilled enough to do that... Or able to put his feelings aside and focus on me.

I forget whether I posted this here vs. elsewhere on the forum (please read along if you've already seen it!), but I said early in session that it felt like some of this had become about his feelings rather than mine, like I had to protect his feelings, which didn't seem like how therapy should be. And he said, "You do have to think about my feelings, because I'm a human." [insert eye roll emoji]. To which I said, "So what makes this different from a friendship then? Aside from the money part." I don't think he really had an answer to that.

Actually, the therapeutic thing for him to say to you in this situation would be "Thank you for sharing that. I hear you. I'm glad to know that you consider this a safe place for you to express and explore your feelings. I want you to know there's an open invitation to talk more about those feelings here in therapy... if you should choose to."

This therapist is negligent and ineffective at best and he's outright damaging at worst. Your feelings of platonic love for your therapist are healthy, natural, expected, and absolutely okay. The fact that he doesn't understand this and has shamed and silenced you regarding your own feelings is appalling to me.

Edited to add: I tell my therapist that I love him on a weekly basis. He doesn't say "I love you too" but he responds with warmth and empathy every single time. And every time he reminds me that those feelings are welcome here and we can explore them in therapy as much as we need to. If he feels uncomfortable about hearing the words "I love you" from a client he certainly keeps that all to himself and works on his own stuff on his own time so it doesn't impact my therapy.

Thanks, Inky. This really helps to hear.

Because a friend would not (nor be able to) engage with you on this level. You are (rather rudely) discounting his skills in talking with you. They are not simply "his feelings" - they are his therapeutic reactions to you, which is what you are paying him for.

If he feels battered, he is probably not the only one who feels that way. Thats what he is trying to tell you but for some reason you are unable or unwilling to hear it. You just want everyone around you to provide you relief. He is saying it would be unethical of him to do so.

At that point, you should stop and examine your feelings, not insist that he change his actions so you dont have to look at your feelings, or stop / change what you are doing, then look at THOSE feelings. Therein lies the sabotage and battering, giving him an ultimatum - your way or the highway.

I wonder what would have happened if ex-MC had NOT taken the call during the football game. I would love to hear your thoughts on that - on him holding his boundary.

First, for like the 10th time, ex-MC called ME during the football game--I did not call him. He chose to break the boundary.

And he has said these are his feelings. He's not saying they're his therapeutic reactions to me. That might be different.

I *do* want to examine my feelings. That's what I'm trying to do with him! I want to be able to talk about my feelings. He seems reluctant to do so. I'm unclear as to how I'm giving him an ultimatum--I'm saying that I want to talk about this stuff. I want to process what's really going on here.

In terms of the battering, I also don't talk to others in my life the way I talk to him--he's my therapist and it's a different relationship. I feel like I should be able to give feedback to him that maybe I'd choose not to share with my H or a friend or relative. I pay him to do this. If I was paying a mechanic to fix my car, and he was doing a bad job with it, should I just be nice and say, "OK, this is fine"? Or if a restaurant messes up my order. And I have checked in with some other people in my life (not just now, but at times in the past) to make sure they don't feel this way.

I don't think the battering refers to harm but to persistent attempts at getting around the boundaries.

I think if you're paying someone to talk about your behaviors, your patterns, your feelings, you have every right to expect to be able to talk about those things as much or as little as you want to, not be accused of "battering" them. Other therapists seem to be able to do this.

Thanks, NP. I agree.

I wondered what he meant, but yesterday he seemed to suggest it was referring to times that I'd said something hurtful to him. And he said he only had a handful of examples, and I'd be familiar with all of them because he'd told me his reaction at the time.

I guess the question is whether a therapist has the right to set a conversational boundary or not. In social situations, that works like, "Hey, if you talk about X, I will remind you not to. If you persist, I will leave." Dr. T can't exactly leave, and if I remember correctly he doesn't believe in referring clients out, so he's kind of stuck here. You really can't control what somebody does or doesn't say.

In a way I'm glad I'm not as open as LT about the specifics of my therapy because you all would think my therapist had been thoroughly battered and deep fried by now, but she sincerely doesn't seem to mind. The core of my work has been built around a series of ruptures, some of which I have discussed so often that I'm sick of them. I think there are just a lot of ways to do therapy.

This is a good point. I do have friends who have certain boundaries around particular topics, and I'm generally very good about avoiding them (I may slip up now and then). And they do the same for me. I feel like in therapy, it should be more open and I shouldn't have to worry about the boundaries in the same way, particularly when it's me talking about my feelings.

And I *do* respect many of his boundaries. I don't ask any detailed questions about his son, for example. He mentioned something about kids not wearing masks in his school, and I asked if he was in middle or high school now, and he answered. But I didn't ask any additional questions. I don't ask about his wife. I sort of ask about his travel plans (generally things like "are you driving or flying?" which partly involved COVID safety concerns the past few years), but respect if he doesn't give more info.

If he set a clear boundary that I can't talk about X, I'd follow it. In this case, yesterday, near the beginning, I said, "I feel like you don't want me to talk about the love thing more. That you want me to give you time." And he said, "We can talk about it if you want. It's fine." And referenced the matzoh ball being out there. So it didn't feel like I was pushing his boundaries to talk about it. If he'd said, "Can we table this for a bit?" I'd have done so.

And I'm glad for you that your T is OK with the "battering and deep frying"!

No hike but changed to going to our botanical garden lighted walk later tonight. I live just a couple of blocks away so even more convenient than driving out to the trail we had planned.

That sounds nice.

Perhaps in the context of a marriage or friendship this argument would make some sense. But in the context of therapy it does not.

First of all, it doesn't sound like LT is giving an ultimatum even though she's perfectly within her rights as a client to do so. If were he my therapist I would have given him an ultimatum a long time ago...."get some training on attachment or I'm finding a new therapist."

Second, you accuse LT of not being willing to examine her feelings, yet the entire issue here is that her therapist REFUSES to help her examine these particular feelings because they are too hard or triggering for him to hear. How on earth is she supposed to navigate that? She hired him to help her, yet he puts up boundaries around her even being able to utter the harmless words that express her feelings.

To hear her say these words (I love you), to help her explore what's behind them (most likely complex feelings mixed with deep roots of attachment pain), and to hold space for her within the context of therapy is literally HIS JOB!

I thought the guy pretty clearly said he was not psychodynamic. If that is what is wanted, then maybe finding one of those guys who wants to that sort would be less frustrating.
I think the guy is a jerk but I don't think he is wrong. A lot of time seems to be spent focusing on him -what he should have said or done or how he could have done x,y or x differently or what lt had worked out in her head but it was not how he responded and so on. Maybe with a different therapist lt could work on whatever she went to therapy for and not so much keeping her focus on the therapist. To me this seem just like what happened with the last one who was supposed to be a marriage counselor but somehow became more of just lts.

I don't think leaving the guy would be a bad plan (I don't think an ultimatum of be different or I will leave would work and I don't think it would be a good thing if it did work). I believe people keep doing the same thing over and over until they decide to stop. I think it might be better to find one who is psychodynamic from the get go rather than trying to make one who doesn't do that into one who does if attachment is why one wants to hire a therapist.