[Flowerb]

My T says he cares about me. He has said it before but some how it is hard for me to hold on to - I wonder if he only cares when he sees me, kind of - out of sight, out of mind. He says no, that my mother never held me in her mind so I can't imagine anyone would. He wants me to listen to my gut - my experience of him. He wants to know if I can feel his caring. When he puts it like that - yes, I can.

So last week was kind of rough - I'm having trouble figuring out how to let anyone close to me and take care of me in anyway. It is uncomfortable and it is so much easier to take care of everyone else. My T said, "but you've let me take care of you - at least a little. Is that really hard still?" Yes! and no - because I trust that he won't ever need pay-back for that care. There were fears at the beginning that eventually I'd be asked to give sexual favors for his caring. Not rational fears - these were really old and coming from a very young part. I asked him if that was insulting. He said no - it was important that he knew about these fears and he promised that this would never happen.

But now I'm wondering. Is there a difference between his caring about me and his taking care of me? Just to be clear - we are talking exclusively about emotional care - I run a business, manage my household and I'm raising my children just fine. I make decisions about all these things easily and without his constant support. But emotionally, I use his strength to shore up my own so I can face each day. He says that is fine, that I'm borrowing his core-self until I rebuild my own, since we've worked hard to tear down the false one I've had in place for such a long time.

I hate when I do this. I'm dissecting what he said and now I worry I've done something wrong. I think it is Ok for him to care about me. And I want him to take care of me, sometimes, emotionally. So why do I feel like I'm in trouble for allowing him to?

[MissCharlotte]

Flowerb,

These are familiar issues to me. Self care and allowing others to care for me are foreign concepts. I can care for others really well. I care for my children, my husband and well, anyone who needs it.

Allowing T to care for me is difficult. Believing he cares about me is almost an impossibility. So, I suppose there is a difference between caring for and caring about. Caring for feels almost physical, perfunctory and obligatory and caring about implies an emotional connection, a certain level of intimacy. Whoa, this is a good question, one worth exploring furither.

Peace

[Perna]

Being vulnerable and letting another take care of us is one of the hardest things we have to learn. We're so use to making sure nothing bad happens to us (and others) that letting someone else be in charge of that emotionally can feel almost impossible. We want to be the last one to check the lock on the door; we don't want to go to bed first and leave that to someone else.

it's so hard flower.. so very hard..

the struggle you are having.. the dissecting.. all of it.. it's all part of the process of trust and progress... it sounds promising to me. Struggle is good.

i remember being so just... i don't know.. there isn't a word.. maybe flabbergasted? when my T said something like "...therapy isn't about feeling good.." or something to that effect. GASP. But i knew he was right. Damn.

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I'm borrowing his core-self until I rebuild my own

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i like this way of putting it. EVerything you said about your expectations of him and yourself sound perfectly valid and reasonable to me.

why do you feel bad or in trouble? because it goes against the life patterns and beliefs you've held sacred all your life. My T says that if they were easy to change then they weren't beliefs to start with. Changing belief is not exclusively a thought process.. you can't just logically decide to change and everything follows easily. Nope. Even when we can look at it, examine it and see the maladaptive behaviours and feelings.. we cant just decide not to do it. It's like wading into a raging river.. the other bank is only clearly visible when you're not in the middle of it.. in the water you get swept up in turmoil.

it sounds like you are doing a bang up job at this flower.. seriously

[chaotic13]

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Perna said:
Being vulnerable and letting another take care of us is one of the hardest things we have to learn. We're so use to making sure nothing bad happens to us (and others) that letting someone else be in charge of that emotionally can feel almost impossible. We want to be the last one to check the lock on the door; we don't want to go to bed first and leave that to someone else.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Why is this wrong? Aren't adults supposed to be self sufficient? This is where I am confused. Isn't the whole issue of a therapeutic relationship is that it is meant to be temporary. In the end aren't we are supposed to be able to handle the responsibility of caring for ourselves?

[Flowerb]

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mckell13 said:
? Aren't adults supposed to be self sufficient? This is where I am confused. Isn't the whole issue of a therapeutic relationship is that it is meant to be temporary. In the end aren't we are supposed to be able to handle the responsibility of caring for ourselves?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I ask this question a lot! My T says that I am the poster child for self-sufficient - I've been running a household since I was 9. The trick for me is to find balance. He says that an adult who is truly taking care of themselves allows others to help - he talks about interdependency and is adamant that the goal in therapy is not independence - even when therapy is over he hopes I will take part of him forward with me. Once he said, "it is equally important that you hold me in your mind and heart, like I do you. Connections that are sustaining are mutual - which is why we feel pain when we miss people. The connection is stretched and the stretching hurts a little. That doesn't mean you are weak , or wrong or bad for missing someone."

I think the problem many of us have is that independence is a cultural value and the opposite of that is something to fear. But ask yourself, how many times have you thought or said to another, "you don't have to go through this alone." At least for me, I encourage others to lean on me, or get help, or be with family or whatever, when things are hard. I never say to them, "be independent around this - you'll feel better."

It is very hard - knowing this and yet not being able to let it happen. Early damage feels like permanent damage.

[sunrise]

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Flowerb said:
But emotionally, I use his strength to shore up my own so I can face each day. He says that is fine, that I'm borrowing his core-self until I rebuild my own

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I love that thought. I think I am doing this with my T also. I feel like I keep him in my back pocket and carry him around with me. When I need him, I can take him out, kind of like a talisman I can hold in my hand to give me strength during hard times and help me cope.

Flowerb, I think our past experiences can make it hard for us to let people care for us. It probably depends on where we each are at in our development and what we have experienced. Some of us have been very independent and self-sufficient and not known how to let others care for us or take care of us. This sort of person can benefit from learning how to lean on others. Other people may be used to being very dependent on others and can benefit from learning how to better stand on their own two feet. Different people need different things.

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mckell13 said:
Aren't adults supposed to be self sufficient? This is where I am confused. Isn't the whole issue of a therapeutic relationship is that it is meant to be temporary. In the end aren't we are supposed to be able to handle the responsibility of caring for ourselves?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't think it's all or nothing. My T cares for me in a different way then others in my life. For example, I just had surgery. Friends and family called to enquire how it had gone, gave me sympathy, cooked food for me, helped with my kids, etc. T did not do these things. T just provides support for one hour a week in his office. He doesn't demonstrate his "care" for me in these other ways, but that doesn't mean the care he does give me is any less valuable. All of these ways of caring have value, and it is OK to let others care for us when we need it. This is something I must work on accepting, because I have a long history of being overly self sufficient and "needing no one." I remember as a little girl, many instances of standing stock still as my mother yelled at me full blast and just tuning her out and reciting this mantra in my head, "I don't need anyone. I don't need anyone." I need to unlearn that.

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Flowerb said:
He says that an adult who is truly taking care of themselves allows others to help - he talks about interdependency and is adamant that the goal in therapy is not independence - even when therapy is over he hopes I will take part of him forward with me. Once he said, "it is equally important that you hold me in your mind and heart, like I do you. Connections that are sustaining are mutual - which is why we feel pain when we miss people. The connection is stretched and the stretching hurts a little. That doesn't mean you are weak , or wrong or bad for missing someone."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I really like your T, flowerb. He sounds very caring and insightful.

[Perna]

Too, we think we are independent and self-sufficient when we aren't actually, no one is or can be. We don't grow our own food or, most of us, don't employ ourselves and pay our wages. We let mechanics fix our cars, have handymen in to help fix things in the house, get our drycleaning done, rely on bus, subway or cab to get us to our appointments, etc. If the power goes out or our cell phone breaks, etc. we've got problems and have to call for "help" from service providers. We can't go to work and teach our children at the same time. T's are service providers too and are there to help us remember how interdependent we are with others and how to get along with others.

Emotional needs aren't much different from physical; we need reassurance and support emotionally, feedback from friends like here at PC. It's not bad or "wrong" to try to do everything ourselves, it's just tiring and doesn't work so well and if anything breaks down in our system, then we're in big trouble because we don't know where we can turn for backup, haven't made ourselves a personal resource "list". We live far away from or have trouble with our parents and siblings, don't have an SO or one we can count on, and don't know how to ask for help because we're use to doing things on our own. Because we think we're supposed to be this way, we're embarrassed to even have to ask for help or need it, thinking that means there's something wrong with us. People are social animals. Very few live wholly alone and those that do don't live as long (look at how married people live longer than singles?).

[chaotic13]

Sunrise said:
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I remember as a little girl, many instances of standing stock still as my mother yelled at me full blast and just tuning her out and reciting this mantra in my head, "I don't need anyone. I don't need anyone."

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I remember many similar instances. Never through about it in this context before.

and mckell... you said you didn't have any transference at all... you hid this little thing No offense.. just that sunrises mantra and your frequent statement of not being able to let og and trust your T... hmmm.... math is a funny thing.

but hey.. with the self sufficiency.. yes, the goal is a transitional object that we actually do transition to and then from... to allow ourselves that is a different ball of wax (where did that phrase come from and why does anyone want *any* ball of wax?).

an analogy of a bone that got broken but never fixed, has grown wrong... so a doc needs to re-break and re-set the bone... of course the goal is to heal and walk again, but we have to learn to allow ourselves to trust the doctor first.. to even come close much less break a bone on purpose. We have to learn to rely on the healers to help us learn to get back to walking on our own, but this time with a bone that is healthier..

learning how to let go of control is an important skill too... it makes us felxible in the world. The Japanese (maybe CHinese?) symbol of strength is not rock or steel, it;s the willow because it has give.. it can bend and will not break easily. Same with us.. we need to learn to bend, to give over some control as it is appropriate in our lives.. if we rigidly retain control at all times we become brittle, like the steel.

[chaotic13]

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MzJelloFluff said:
and mckell... you said you didn't have any transference at all... you hid this little thing No offense.. just that sunrises mantra and your frequent statement of not being able to let og and trust your T... hmmm.... math is a funny thing.

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Hmmm in deed
I don't think I deliberately hid my self reliance belief. Maybe I assumed that others had the same belief, maybe to more or less of a degree than me. Maybe this assumption itself is an example of transference. Until your previous post and PM I really didn't get that transference could just mean the transferring of feelings (beliefs) in general. I was thinking it was feelings you have for a specific person that you project onto your T.

I'll have to think on this further.

It is funny how little tidbits spark trains of thought. Last session I voiced a minor complaint about my husband. I think in an attempt to make a point my T fired out a simple question, 'Well, who did you run to when you were hurt?' I didn't get her question or how it related to my complaint and must have looked really confused because she immediately followed with 'When you scrapped a knee, who took care of it?' I was like... "I don't know... I likely just blew on it or got the garden hose and squired it off. I don't get what you mean." What ever point she was trying to make was totally lost and we moved on. Maybe her point was related to this caring vs. taken care of issue. I'll have to reflect on this exchange to figure out what it was all about.

[sunrise]

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mckell13 said:
I really didn't get that transference could just mean the transferring of feelings (beliefs) in general. I was thinking it was feelings you have for a specific person that you project onto your T.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">mckell, that's the kind of transference I have, the general patterns/feelings from the past, rather than of a specific person. Of course, many specific people from my past went into constructing those feelings/patterns in me, but what I transfer onto my T is a general pattern of relating/interacting/feeling. And this is not specific to my T, I transfer this onto anyone I form a relationship with.

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I don't think I deliberately hid my self reliance belief.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I understood it to mean you had hid from yourself that you had transference, not the self reliance belief.

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'When you scrapped a knee, who took care of it?' I was like... "I don't know... I likely just blew on it or got the garden hose and squired it off. I don't get what you mean." What ever point she was trying to make was totally lost and we moved on.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">That's an interesting exchange, mckell. I wonder why you let that go without understanding it? Maybe the time is not right yet to make connections to your past in therapy? Or maybe it just seemed like hey this totally does not fit, why are we spending our valuable time on it? It sounds like it would be interesting to learn what your T really did mean. It's funny how sometimes things in therapy do not seem important and then in the interim, they become so. I guess that's processing.

[chaotic13]

Sunrise, I don't think the exchange was too important. I don't think she intended to confuse or stump me. When she realized I didn't understand her analogy, she chose another one involving my kids which I understood better. At this point I just remember that there was an awkward point in the session involving a scrapped knee analogy that went over my head. How it actually related to my husband and my complaint...I do know? As for letting it go.. well I that's my fault.. I didn't like the feeling of not getting something-- so I let it go and moved on. There's alway next session :-)

i dont know for sure what she meant.. but it does sound like she was asking about who you turned to for care and comfort... even if you did squirt your knee with the garden hose Who was the person you turned to when you needed more than you could give yourself? When you were very afraid.. who did you seek help from? It may very well be that by a certain age you had learned not to seek comfort and care.. but all children seek it at some point and it's usually a parent we turn to... if you were afraid or hurt, etc.. did you try to get your mother to comfrt you? (that was rhetorical)

Whomever taught you is not entirely the point, i think connecting with how you developed this rigidity is more the point. You seek out how it came to be, talk about it, explore it and try to make peace with it.. you trace out how it has repeated itself in your adult relationships and interactions ... and finally you try to find new ways to interact that operate outside the current ones. It's tough work.. and what drives me nuts is that i *get* a lot of it conceptually, but i haven't the foggiest %#@&#! clue how to apply it.

i'm glad the transference idea is making more sense... it's the sort of thing i think T's should really work to explain to the clients... but most dont unless you bring it up. i found it SO freaking helpful when i discovered the concept. i had developed a really intense romantic transference for my first T and i was so mortified. It was torture.. and i dont think he knew i felt that per se, but he knew i was deeply attached.. i told him in my last session than had he talked about transference with me he could have saved me six months of suffering... i mean, it made perfect sense to me that i would experience that given my situation.. and i was so relieved that it really wasn't about romantic feelings at all.

that is another good example mckell... my former T.. i wasn't transferring feelings for another specific person.. i was transferring my need to feel loved, to have attention and affection and my feeling of being unlovable and rejected. i knew nothing about him as a person.. what i knew was that he listened to me, paid complete attention, gave me respect... i created an ideal that i transferred upon.. he just happened to be the embodiment of that ideal to me... get what i mean?

i'll stop now.. i'm just rambling

[chaotic13]

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Orignally Flowerb said:
I'm having trouble figuring out how to let anyone close to me and take care of me in anyway. It is uncomfortable and it is so much easier to take care of everyone else.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
What I find interesting about this thread is that the consensus suggests that there IS a difference between caring for others and letting others take care for us. Or even just accepting that others may WANT to care for us. Personally, I guess I've only learned less than 50% of the overall lesson-- Guess I'm not doing so well in Relationship 101 :-) Hence the need for remediation- I don't want to be the child left behind. :-)

[sunrise]

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MzJelloFluff said:
i told him in my last session than had he talked about transference with me he could have saved me six months of suffering...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">How did he respond to that? Did he agree he should have told you? Did he have a reason for keeping you in the dark?