Asking for Support

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chaotic13 said:
Unfortunately this statement is totally correct and I know it. I continue to want support via this medium, even though I never get it. Why???

The phone option doesn't seem to match with what I am capable.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think a discussion with your T about emails and phone calls would be helpful. You could learn what method she prefers to be contacted by, especially if a response back is wanted. If the uncertainty about what to expect were removed, it seems like this would be so much easier.

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I imagine calling and having my T say.. "How can I help you, what do you need from me?" and I have no real answer

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, you do have an answer. Your answer is the words you wrote to her in the email. Or this sequence would be good: I just wanted to let you know that after being asked to describe details about ____, that I had flashbacks and got nauseous just washing dishes." "I was thinking about the class I have this weekend, and got scared about possibly freaking."

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it make sense that including an explicit statement saying "CONTACT ME, LIKE NOW" is certainly a reasonable rule.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">As far as you know, this is not her rule--she's never said that. Why don't you talk to her so you can learn what her rules are?

I know this is so hard. I hope in this time of greater need, you can have more frequent sessions with your T so that you can get the support you need.

Best of luck at your upcoming class. As the time gets nearer, if it just seems too much, then you can always choose to not go. There will be time for another course in the future.

Take care.

"I think it is this confusion that makes my requests for support less direct. I don't know it just seem like at least initially any attempt to seek a connection in times of need would be initially reinforced and then of course later refined into a more appropriate request."

There's truth to that too (depending on the t). All mine have initially reached out and supported my attempts to reach out. MD stopped calling me back after 8 months, and T stopped replying to email after about 6 months unless it looks like a matter of life and death.

I think this is something to bring up with t and get clarity on.
(((((((chaotic)))))))

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chaotic13 said:
I had a lot of people in my life who claimed to care about me, when all they wanted was to use and manipulate me. Why assume that she is any different? I feel sincerity, compassion, and caring during the session, but later my mind starts to doubt this and looks for proof that I was not just imagining it (just wishful thinking)



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Oh, YEAH. I get this so, so, so, so much. Have you told her you feel like this? T and I go around and around about this. In the session, the caring feels so "real" but it is so hard to hang onto that between sessions. We talk about this all the time, and it's why I have my marble. AND it's why I go twice a week. I just can't hang on to it for that long, and believe it. It's getting better - but it's taken a lot (I mean a LOT) of talking, testing, etc.

I don't know how to put another quote in here, but you also said:
I don't think I really needed to talk with my T this week. I just needed to know that she was for real. That she was there and at least minimally concerned about me.
So, this is maybe what you needed? To know she is out there, and for real? I need that too. I have sent my T e-mails that specifically say things like "I just need to connect with you" or "I just need to know you're still there"

I probably sound in these posts like I'm super great at asking to have my needs met but believe me, this stuff tears me up. In a lot of ways, this has probably been the focus of my therapy for many, many months. This is hard stuff - especially when we grew up in invalidating, even abusive, environments. Really hard stuff.

((((((((((((((((((((((chaotic)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I don't know something happened to me yesterday as I was ranting on this thread. I think I found something inside of me that didn't exist before. I actually even allowed myself to fantasize a little bit yesterday. LOL I didn't have this capability when I first started posting on PC. Waz up with that?

Last night I slept really well for a change. I woke up this morning not wanting my T any more. By this I don't mean that I don't want therapy any more, just that my need of her attention at this moment is diminished.

Hmmm. kinda asking myself what happened so I can do it again.

Kiya, I think my inner 10 yr old needs a lot of support, encouragement, and reinforcement from my T. Miss C... might this be a case of transference?? I don't think the rest of me allows these needs to be conveyed during my sessions. My T is competent but as Sky_ interjected she is not a mind reader. I don't think she has any idea needed and (I hate to say it) vulnerable I am to her at this point.

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Earthmama said:
Oh, YEAH. I get this so, so, so, so much. Have you told her you feel like this?

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Ah....Nope I want a marble!

(((sunrise))) TY! I always seem to begin with an unmet want or need, whine about it, then eventually work through it to the point that I don't want or need it anymore. In doing this I am able to feel better but kind of miss the whole point. In the process I forget that I wanted something in the beginning. Although I feel a lot better now, I haven't really accepted that it might be OK for ME to want (maybe even need) someone's attention. Accepting this concept and then finding effective and appropriate ways to communicate this is really what I need to work on most in therapy and in my marriage. Learning to live without is not the same as learning to live.

Sky's post in the other thread about Airing It All Out made me consider copying this thread and sharing ALL of it with my T DURING next session. Boy, that would be a great purging wouldn't it? It would leave little doubt about if I communicated fully about how needy and vulnerable I've become and would likely settle the expectations for out of session communication.

Of course... the downside of this would be that she would know. The worst case scenario would be that she would say... that's nice that you want attention but... I'm not really interested in providing it...Now I think we need to talk about you discontinuing therapy 'cause.. well... you've become dependent and your $150/session isn't enough money for me deal with it.

Hmm... the whole thread... probably not a good idea...However, discussing the email issue is definitely something to be raised.

yeah - i finally wrote out a letter and printed it.... we'll see if i actually *give* it to her tonight. Or i might drop it on her desk as i run for the door at the end of the hour - right before she is gone for 11 days. Like you say - then she would know. and i would feel even more stupid and more of a burden. she takes my concerns and stress very seriously. we shall see.

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Or i might drop it on her desk as i run for the door at the end of the hour

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This is too funny. I remember when I was student teaching at the elementary school level, I had a little girl do that to me on my last day. I thought she was so cute. I'm sure it is not so cute when an adult does it, though.

Kiya... good luck with your attempt to air it all.

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T's that require this are in fact denying/ ignoring a patient's request for support simply because it was not in the "correct" form

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Chaotic, I don't think it has to do with form but rather encouraging (as the "good enough" mother would) us to begin to define and ask for what it is we need. In the beginning I hated this and now I like it because it makes everything much clearer for me.

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I continue to want support via this medium, even though I never get it. Why???

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A lot of people think that e-mail is too impersonal and not private. T and I don't do e-mails and I don't think I would want it.

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t also requires a middle man.

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Now, THAT would really bug me. I could not leave a message for T with a secretary. In fact, I don't think I could work with a therapist who didn't have a private answering machine. I leave T all sorts of wacky messages on his machine! LOL Now I understand why you want e-mail. It feels more private to you. Maybe you can explain this?

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Why do people keep dreaming of having sex with their T or having their T bring them home and adopt them, even though it is NEVER going to happen?

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Well, we dream of all sorts of things that are never going to happen but that doesn't mean we should give up dreaming. Sometimes our longings are lived out in fantasies and that soothes us psychologically or somehow gives us courage to keep going. I think it's a good thing actually.

Take care.

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Of course... the downside of this would be that she would know. The worst case scenario would be that she would say... that's nice that you want attention but... I'm not really interested in providing it...Now I think we need to talk about you discontinuing therapy 'cause.. well... you've become dependent and your $150/session isn't enough money for me deal with it.

You just summed up my nightmare! I am so afraid of this happening, I too am very dependent on my t.

HUGS! to everyone here.

complic8d one way TRY to work though my irrational fears is to start defining them better. Doesn't always help but sometimes it keeps my brain busy. Do you ever do this? Do you think it might help? Want to do it here?

When you think of being too dependent, what do you imagine yourself doing?

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complic8d said:
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chaotic13 said:
Now I think we need to talk about you discontinuing therapy 'cause.. well... you've become dependent and your $150/session isn't enough money for me deal with it.

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You just summed up my nightmare! I am so afraid of this happening, I too am very dependent on my t.

HUGS! to everyone here.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Ummm, you guys know that the T's know we are dependent on them even without our saying it, don't you? They know this and they have not terminated you. It's OK to be attached and dependent in therapy. For people who have never allowed themselves to lean on anyone because of so much hurt and rejection in their lives, learning to depend on the therapist in the therapeutic relationship is pretty important!

"Ummm, you guys know that the T's know we are dependent on them even without our saying it, don't you? They know this and they have not terminated you. It's OK to be attached and dependent in therapy. For people who have never allowed themselves to lean on anyone because of so much hurt and rejection in their lives, learning to depend on the therapist in the therapeutic relationship is pretty important! "

oh. now she tells us.

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sunrise said:
Ummm, you guys know that the T's know we are dependent on them even without our saying it, don't you?

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Well... yes if you don't have a warped definition of what dependent means. "relying on someone or something else for aid, support, etc." (dictionary.com)

However in my brain the word dependent gets warped and labeled as bad. Then the fear starts to creep in. For me I start trying to determine how much relying or support? How do I know if I'm becoming too dependent?

The same applies to word attachment. In my head attachment takes on a clingy, obsessed tone when I define it. This is especially when I view it terms of ME being attached to therapy or my therapist. Just now is an example.. I just had trouble typing "or my therapist." When I thought about why, it was because the word "attached" seems in my mind to be connected somehow to sexual attraction and intimacy. Maybe this is similar to Pinksoil's comment in another post about the tendency to sexualize all types of intimacy.

So the answer to your question is YES I know that my T expects me to develop an attachment to her and be dependent on her for support. (Wow, again that was really hard for me to write. I kept wanting to change into the third person...so maybe I don't really KNOW this for sure.)

The bottom line is for me basic assumptions get screwed up, I start looking for previous experiences to use as points of reference and boundaries, then I get scared of doing something wrong, and retreat. I don't know if that makes any sense.

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chaotic13 said:
How do I know if I'm becoming too dependent?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Interesting. What does becoming too dependent even mean? Would a therapist tell a client they had become too dependent and why? I know some clients are asked to lessen the frequency of sessions (e.g. from twice a week to one). Does this mean the therapist considers them to be too dependent?

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YES I know that my T expects me to develop an attachment to her and be dependent on her for support

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Interesting again! So you think T's expect that? I'm not sure my T expects it. I don't think he can connect intensely with everyone who walks through the door. Some people don't want that, and I think he would respect their boundaries and be able to help them to some extent anyway. I was not attached or dependent on my first therapist but nevertheless we did some work in therapy that was helpful to me. I think for a therapist every client presents a puzzle and I wonder actually how soon they can tell with a client if this time they will have a strong connection, trust, the client will become attached, etc. I think for my current T, he knew something was up with me and him the first day. He has told me as much. I knew it too. But I never felt he had that expectation for me, just delight at the relationship that ensued.

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The bottom line is for me basic assumptions get screwed up, I start looking for previous experiences to use as points of reference and boundaries, then I get scared of doing something wrong, and retreat. I don't know if that makes any sense.

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It does to me. It's *really* hard to start letting yourself feel dependent, and even harder to show it to someone else (like your T), when you're not used to acting that way and have all sorts of assumptions about it being a not good thing (and assumptions about what your T will think of you for acting that way). As my T always tells me, you're brave to try new things. Good luck!

I agree, allowing yourself to trust and depend on your T is very difficult (after 6 years I'm still not there), those of you that have mastered this, my hat's off to you!

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What does becoming too dependent even mean?

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Well in my mind being "too dependent" on another person would mean:
* That I would become reliant on that person to the point that I could not do things for myself.
*That I would seek to connect and need attention from the person beyond what they wish or are willing to give.( A one-sided relationship)
* That I would need there approval or permission or acknowledgment before making personal decisions.
* That I would want to be constantly around that person and would feel very lost and lonely when they weren't immediately available.
* That I would become really sad , upset, lost, or unable to function if the person went away.
* That I would clutch to the relationship long after it should have naturally ended.
* That my actions leave the other person feeling restricted, resentful, claustrophobic, overburdened, and dreading my attempts to connect.

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So you think T's expect that?

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I don't know why I chose the were expects here. I know I had trouble typing that sentence. I think anticipates might be a better word choice...

I think T's likely anticipate that patients will develop an attachment and be dependent on them for support.

Your right, I have no idea what my T actually expects or doesn't expect from me or any other patient. I think she has work pretty hard to convince me that she is trustworthy and accepting of me when I am in her office. Since I really don't have a good handle on what "normal" or healthy attachment is, i don't know if she expects me to be attached to her or not. She did tell me one session that I should have called her when I was struggling and I wanted to talk to her. I don't know if this counts as expecting dependence or just her willingness to allow me to be dependent.

Do you think T's get disappointed with their patients? I kind of feel like I sometimes disappoint my T. Like when I called her a complete stranger after like 8 months of therapy. I can be a real block head sometimes. She's had to want to biff me on several occasions.

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chaotic13 said:
She did tell me one session that I should have called her when I was struggling and I wanted to talk to her. I don't know if this counts as expecting dependence or just her willingness to allow me to be dependent.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I don't think reaching out to a professional or friend in time of need is being dependent on them.

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Do you think T's get disappointed with their patients?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I do think T's cut their clients a lot more slack than vice versa. I think T's realize their clients are human! (A lot more than clients sometimes realize their T's are human.) I do remember once when my T was frankly appalled at me. I asked him about that the next session and he agreed, he had been appalled. I'm not sure if that's the same as disappointed. But I bet there are times they are disappointed, but I expect they try to hide it.

<font color="green">[b]Asking for help feels like asking if I could please take a body part home with me.

I think that most of us here have had disfunctional childhoods in some form or fashion. One result of that is we tend to look for someone to provide what mother didn't. Think about a mother with a new baby, she knows when it is hungry and she knows when the pain is gas or a dirty diaper. She knows baby needs simulation and soothing and she provides it without the little one verbalizing what it wants. That attunement that level of attachment is what we often seek from our therapists but the time for that is past. We need to learn what we need and what we want and we need to learn appropriate ways to get it. I believe this is a large part of why we have to ask our therapists and why they won't do things without our asking.

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She [the mother] provides it without the little one verbalizing what it wants.That attunement that level of attachment is what we often seek from our therapists but the time for that is past.

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I think I agree with you here.
I don't think I really want this level of attunement from my T. Then again maybe I did, but just don't want to admit it to myself.

I wrote earlier this week about comforting my son this past weekend when he was feeling exhausted and sad. He had hidden from me, but I had detected his sadness earlier, and when he was missing from the campfire, I went looking for him. Maybe when I wrote my T after my last session I was unrealistically seeking mothering and not realizing it. I don't think I really wanted direct comforting, I think I just wanted someone out there to know I was feeling sad. I didn't I really want a mother-like level of attunement (i.e. my T to come looking for me). I just wanted a reply that said, "I hear ya."

Was that wrong? Should I be looking to someone to provide this...I don't know...commiseration? Should I even be looking outside of myself at all?

Today I kind of have mixed feelings about my asking for support last week. I've realized that I am not as independent and unflappable as I think I am. I think I am really struggling with learning the finer boundaries and rules attachment and dependence. The fact that I don't know these things leaves me with negative feeling about myself. I'm not sure if my desire for comforting or at least acknowledgment from my T is appropriate or not. I'm not sure yet if I am willing to risk finding out. On the positive side, I learned that I can endure humiliation and survive. That other get confused like this too. Also I know that just because don't seek comforting and support very well myself, I can be attuned and provide support to my kids, I hopefully encouraging them not to hide when they are sad.

I've realized that I still don't communicate what I want very well. This time I thought I was being clear, but wasn't. And I still continue to use a medium that feels comfortable but doesn't work (e-mail) . I've also learned yet again that the people on PC can be very supportive as I work through my mental ramblings.

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chaotic13 said:
I've also learned yet again that the people on PC can be very supportive as I work through my mental ramblings.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">True for me too. It can be so helpful to participate in discussions here, compare experiences, get support, and have a place to ramble.

I want to add also, chaotic, that I do understand your reluctance to call your T. I am a fine one to say just call your T and ask for support, because I can't do that. I really feel unable to reach out to him beyond the frame of the once a week therapy session, whether by email or phone (emails I might send are strictly logistical). However, I really took my first therapist's message to heart, that a T who only sees you once a week cannot be your entire support system, and I shouldn't expect that to be sufficient. As she told me to do, I built up more of an outside-therapy support system (I had none) of friends and family. I was so scared and resistant to doing this. We actually had to work on this in therapy, what my resistances were to this. One was that I felt my reaching out would be rejected and that they wouldn't want to give me help or a supportive ear and would think ill of me for it or laugh at me or whatever. One of the things she said to me was that when people came to me for help or support, did I feel like that? And the answer was no, of course not. I was glad to be able to help. This helped give me courage to reach out to others. And in general, reaching out was a good experience, I was not rejected and I found some support (of course, I chose who I reached out to VERY carefully!). These successes gave me more confidence and helped me see that reaching out was normal, not a flaw or character deficiency. Somehow, I had not known that before. Probably like dalila said, because of my dysfunctional childhood and lack of love, warmth, attunement, needs being met, etc.

As for reaching out to my therapist, I do that in session. That is my time with him. I like to think maybe in dire circumstances, I could contact him outside of session. Once I was really in a bad way and I emailed my lawyer. Well, who should respond to that email but my T. Lawyer called him immediately, told him what was going on, and he emailed me. Then later we talked on the phone, and he said, "why didn't you call me?" And I just wanted to bang him over the head and say because you never check your f**king voicemail and when I have called you, you don't f**king respond. In many ways, they sure don't make this easy for us. Maybe someday I will have healed enough that I can casually call my therapist for help and easily take it in stride when he doesn't respond.

After all of the squawking I did last week, I emailed my T today and canceled my appointment of this week. Talking about the past and the realities of the present is just depressing me at this point. I don't have the energy to do it this week.

((((((((((((((((((Chaotic)))))))))))))))
hoping you are ok
=( kiya

Thanks Kiya,

I feel like I've been hit by a mac truck this week; but I have a pulse. I think I just need a break from this supposedly therapeutic relationship. I think I was getting too attached and sucked into this interaction andI lost sight of why I was in therapy. I'll survive, I'm disappointed with myself because quit via email. When I am feeling better I send her a card or something. I'm just not up to it right now.

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I emailed my T today and canceled my appointment of this week

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I'm disappointed with myself because quit via email. When I am feeling better I send her a card or something

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chaotic, did you cancel this week's session, or did you quit therapy completely? What is the difference between email and a card?