OY VEY. T tomorrow.

Actually, I was dx'd BPD 20 years ago, and have recovered with proper therapy, and a strong will to work hard and change. Pink, I do get upset reading your posts (and yes, I quit) because you say you are a therapist, and it seems people look to you here and see how your therapist treats you, and they get the idea that it's the ideal. People wishing their T's were like yours and comparing. Many others have posted about getting "red flags" when hearing your stories. I'm not the only one.

You seem to conclude that the word "manipulation" means something bad. Manipulation is manipulation nomatter how you want to describe it. It;s neither bad nor good, it's not black and white. I used to manipulate too, trust me i know what happens and why, and that was why I was disappointed in your T, because he certainly did you no favors letting you slide on the contract. Someday, you will understand what I'm talking about. I'm not surprised by your reaction to my posts, i see you frequently get defensive and refuse to see another point of view. I was trying to be helpful, and you reacted by attacking me. I haven't said anything offensive, but you certainly interpret it that way because you don't like it.

I hope for your sake I'm wrong and that your T doesn't end up harming you. good luck.

Well, your point of view of my therapy is incorrect, so why would I want to see it? I'm not going to bother explaining anymore because I am totally comfortable and safe in my therapy relationship.

*cuts tension with a butter knife*

"*cuts tension with a butter knife* "

yeah, no kidding.

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april15 said:
Borderlines LOVE to break the rules. They love when they can manipulate their T's into not enforcing boundaries.

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Wow thanks for this April. We do not love manipulating we just want to be loved like everyone else. See this is why I am careful about what I post on here. Its a shame because Pink really puts herself out there and it helps me and many of us.

April, we don't know the whole context of Pink's therapy or any of ours really. We post our feelings and snippets to get the point across, to make a statement about her T's professionalism is not appropriate.

How is this helping her now?

We are more than contracts and her T knew not to enforce it for a reason we are not privy too. Maybe he is letting her set the contract after all, don't we need to learn to control ourselves?

He knows what he's doing and Pink has more insight than almost anyone I know so lets leave it be.

It is sad to see insults on both views here.
I believe your T did a disservice by not going through with your results of you breaking a verbal contract you had with him. Learning you don' t have to take your deals with him seriously, isn't going to help you in the long run. Not keeping your deal and allowing yourself to manipulate the situation of the deal you made, will not let you heal, it will just allow you to know you can manipulate him. He should of held up his end of the bargain.

As far as you being a T, it doesn't make you an expect on your own therapy, you are not being objective when it come to seeing your behavior or his in your treatment. It is easy to see how things are when you treat others, but when it comes to yourself, it is much more complicated. Being a T doesn't make you exempt from getting into a T relationship that isn't healthy. I see many red flags, but have remained quiet about it because I see the back lash of what happens when anyone questions the actions of your T. I have read enough here, that would put your T in jeopardy of his license if he were turned in.

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happysappy said:
I have read enough here, that would put your T in jeopardy of his license if he were turned in.

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By the way, here is the definition of the word objective:

not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

It would be pretty difficult to be objective to your own therapy, wouldn't it? Perhaps even impossible. How stupid of me to let my personal feelings get in the way of my own therapy!! lol

For those of you who have been abused by your Ts-- I'm sorry that happened. Please stop taking it out on someone else's healthy relationship. You obviously have no understanding of safe intimacy, closeness, and openness. I would think you would be intelligent enough to realize that you don't sit in my sessions with me, so you really don't have enough information to state your opinions.

Again, for those of you who didn't actually read/understand my post, there was no manipulation invovled. I told my T about my SI and asked him if it would be more appropriate to leave or stay in session. We made the decision together. For all of you borderline experts out there... where is the manipulation there?

For those who don't want to be triggered or get "back lash" from my posts/responses, then back the %#@&amp;#! off and learn that what you read on these boards is a snippet of what goes on in session. You don't understand my therapy and you don't understand the boundaries of intimacy.

I know a lot of people who were in love with their therapist who thought their therapy was healthy, who got burned in the end. They also fought others who tried to warn them. I really think people are thinking the best for you when they tell you these things.
He really should seek supervision.
Holding a clients hand when you they have erotic tranference towards you, giving you a special email address so you can contact them anytime, and many more things mentioned here, is operating on the slippery slope. It is in all the current T training books, classes, of what is on the line leading to the slippery slope. Maybe nothing will happen, but it could. I understand why it upsets you to hear these things, don't you see any validity to the warnings especially to those who have been there? It is important to know that the going over the line happens not all at once usually, it happens with gradually with loosening of boundaries. With a client in love with their T, they tend to not want to believe or actually hope the T does react to their affections, they also tend to be somewhat blind to the faults of their T's during this. I am one who is not triggered by your posts, but I care about you, I don't want to see another victim of therapy. I know you believe you are safe, haven't any of your training warned T's of doing what your T does as being not recommended? I wish you could see that others care about you here, and only want the best for you. Have you even thought that maybe you could be wrong about how healthy this relationship is to you and your marriage? Are you able to tell your husband of what you feel for your T? If not, why not?

Just curious if you had a client who was in love with you, would you hold their hand and look into their eyes, give them a special email to contact you? I know I wouldn't lead them on in this way.

I also want to add that just because we warn you of the red flags we see in your therapy , or even had a unhealthy relationship with a T, does not mean we don't know what a loving, healthy, close relationship with a T is.

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happysappy said:
It is sad to see insults on both views here.
I believe your T did a disservice by not going through with your results of you breaking a verbal contract you had with him. Learning you don' t have to take your deals with him seriously, isn't going to help you in the long run. Not keeping your deal and allowing yourself to manipulate the situation of the deal you made, will not let you heal, it will just allow you to know you can manipulate him. He should of held up his end of the bargain.

As far as you being a T, it doesn't make you an expect on your own therapy, you are not being objective when it come to seeing your behavior or his in your treatment. It is easy to see how things are when you treat others, but when it comes to yourself, it is much more complicated. Being a T doesn't make you exempt from getting into a T relationship that isn't healthy. I see many red flags, but have remained quiet about it because I see the back lash of what happens when anyone questions the actions of your T. I have read enough here, that would put your T in jeopardy of his license if he were turned in.

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I'm an observer here, but I was wondering what red flags you saw?
I'm just curious. I had a @#@#@$#%% PDOC once (recently) and I ignored early warning signs that came back to bite me, but fortunately I only saw him 3 times and no damage was done (he didn't prescribe anything and I've read my file).

I think red flags are important to pay attention to...in professionals we seek help from and in our personal lives.

The red flags are within a year or more of post s I have personally read, a lot of them are on the line of going down the slippery slope. It is the case the line hasn't been completely crossed, but it could, if things keep progressing with loosening of boundaries. Erotic tranference is something that a T needs to be extra careful of how they related to that client. Some of the things I have read would make me think they are encouraging it in the client. Especially a client who has marriage problems. I am training to be a T also, and this relationship worries me. Of course we don't know all of the story of what happens. But the obsession this client has for their T, and that T's responses are suspect. It is up to the T to keep those boundaries, nothing a client does is at fault, but you have to be extra careful in erotic transference issues.
I would like to see Pinksoil not get so offended by the warnings. It is okay not to agree with others, but to attack the characters of those who are doing the warnings as being unable to know what a healthy relationship is, is not being fair. This issue has come up many times, and I wish she would at least know the intentions of others are to help her because they are worried about her, not to make her mad.
If it was me, and many have questioned things over a long period of time, I would at least maybe see why it is, not just dismissing those people as not knowing anything.

[


By the way, here is the definition of the word objective:

not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

It would be pretty difficult to be objective to your own therapy, wouldn't it? Perhaps even impossible. How stupid of me to let my personal feelings get in the way of my own therapy!! lol

Well I know the definition of being objective and that is my point exactly. You are in the relationship, you may not see the red flags because you are emotionally involved in the situation. Sometime it is beneficial to see what outsiders say. That is why we have T's after all, because we can't always see our own personal relationships objectively. The T is usually the outsider to help.
I have also learned people use jokes and attach the credibility of others when they feel criticized, or to reflect the attention off the subject, so I don't take any of this personally.

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happysappy said:

Holding a clients hand when you they have erotic tranference towards you,

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I have to pipe in to disagree. There are many different ways to do therapy, and physical touch is not considered boundary crossing in many of them. Have you read Yalom? I believe he says "touch your client at every session".

For me, early in therapy, physical touch actually diffused the erotic transference, rather than amplifying it. When we touched, he became more "real" - another human being - not this mysterious, untouchable person on the other side of the room. He has held my hands to help me get grounded, to help me feel our connection, to soothe me when I was upset. He has touched my scars/bandaids as a way of telling me "I accept you, I accept this, I'm not afraid". Never has there been any sort of sexual undertone to it.

I WAS someone who was SA by a counselor in the past, so this is something I pay close attention to.

Perhaps it would be best not to make sweeping generalizations about any one's therapy, or anyone's therapist's style??

Interesting differences of opinions :wave_hi:

Research online....stop in a bookstore.... There are many many types of therapies, many types of therapists.

My therapy is not your therapy is not my therapy is not....

See this is why my T gets whacked out by erotic transference sometimes and goes through the littany of the 'slippery slope' comments.

No two clients are the same, no two therapies are the same. I want my T to be genuine and real, validate me and not reject me.

It's hypervigilant comments like some in these posts that interfere with the intimacy of the therapy process.

I highlight Irvin Yalom's The Gift of Therapy where he talks about home visits, touching etc. and how it can be done appropriately and should be encouraged for healing.

Therapists learned a ton through different transferences. It doesn't mean they encourage it but they also should not interfere with it either.

Just to set the record straight here...

I am not 'in love" with my T, lol. I am in love with my husband. I have loving feelings towards my T, as well as sexual transference, and tons of other feelings.

The way that you described my session is in your words, Happy-- not mine. You wrote, "He held your hands, looked into your eyes, and created a special email." You make it sound like a romance novel, lol.

Let's break it down:

He holds my hand when I feel ungrounded. It is his way of using physical contact to help ground me and to help with connection. I use physical contact with my clients, as well. Just like my T, I ask my clients first, to make sure they are comfortable. My T also explained how hand holding can be a type of physical contact without any sexual feeling attached to it. I can honestly say that when my T touches my hand, sexual feelings are not there. Caring, protective, connected feelings take over.

He looks into my eyes because... um, pretty much any therapist witih half a brain makes eye contact.

He created an email account for me to write to... because I asked him for what I needed (didn't manipulate him-- I'm such a good borderline!) T and I both know that I aside from being a therapist, I am a writer. It is a way for me to express myself in a way that, verbally, I cannot.

Also, for those of you who are about to call the board of ethics because my T touched my hand... he doesn't hug. When I expressed feelings of wanting to be held/hugged, he explained how feelings can get really confused if that were to happen.

As to answer your question, if I would touch a patient who expressed loving/sexual feelings for me-- well, what is "a patient?" There are 990823673 types of patients. When I was interning at the psych hospital, I often used physical contact with patients. One man was quite sexually preoccupied with me. He was also completely psychotic. We had a good relationship, and he asked for a hug. No, I did not give him a hug. I told him, "Let's shake hands instead." This was a person who literally had no idea what was appropriate, and what was not. If it was a patient who expressed feelings of love/sexuality, but who also had significant insight and awareness into the relationship and the boundaries, then yes, I would use physical contact. Again, the type of physical contact depends on the individual. Hugs are only appropriate in certain situations. Some people-- I would not even hold hands. Perhaps I will just touch their arm as they are leaving.

My previous professor (who I know go to for supervision as a therapist) is like Yalom in the way that she uses physical contact, in some way, with every client. She taught me that some individuals have not been touched by anyone in years. Some individuals have never been told that they look great on a particular day, or that they have a beautiful smile. I am not a stuffy/blank screen type of therapist. I never will be. I am definitely more open than my T-- I use certain amounts of self disclosure. You also have to cater to your population and know who you are working with-- understand the culture. I have a caseload of around 150 people. Probably about 145 of them are African American. A lot are much older than I am. I am a white chick, originally from the suburbs of Manhattan. It is absolutely laughable to think that I could connect with these individuals if I wasn't willing to reveal certain parts of myself, and be open to physical closeness and touch.

I will never forget when I was working in the ICU of the psych hospital and a patient who I had worked with, who was around my age, was being discharged. As I said goodbye to him, he asked for a hug. I gave him a hug. Most often, you can tell by the body language what is meant by the hug. I didn't sense anything sexual about it. Later on, I spoke with the psychiatrist about it to ask him if he thought that what I did was appropriate. The psychiatrist was shocked-- not because I had hugged the man, but because the man had come into the hospital so severely paranoid, that he wouldn't even come near anyone. Both the psychiatrist and my supervisor felt that the hug was an important part of his therapy.

So I just illustrate all this to show that there are countless connections, meanings, situations, etc. Nothing in therapy is one way; nothing is prescribed.

I have actually read most of his books.

I do believe in physical touch, it can be so healing for the client for many reasons. But not all kinds of touch.. For for a client who has very strong erotic transference, it could be very damaging too, one has to be extremely careful. When I read the posts after it happened, it seems like I was reading a romance novel. Plus it also matters if physical touch was a norm in therapy all along, or was this holding of her hand something that developed, especially after admitting the sexual desire of her T.

I don't believe T's need to be cold and ridged, my T is very warm and caring, and I believe in the Roger's method a lot, about unconditional positive regard.But there is a line, and one must be careful if the client has romantic feelings for the T. What the T does should not resemble a romantic relationship, in the physical sense, because it can lead to other things and it can confuse the client of what the T is trying to achieve. Holding hands with a client that has romantic feelings, is playing with fire, and unfortunately, it is the client that gets hurt.

I am in no way saying that this happens in ALL the cases, but being aware of the possibility is playing it smart for the client and the T. I don't feel if somebody here recognizes something that puts up warning signs, has bad intentions for the poster, I feel they are showing they care. I would like to see it shown that the people here are seeing things that might be of concern are welcomed to say something. It might help those who may be in the same situation, but who do not post, that yes, there are warning signs that a therapeutic relationship is becoming unhealthy or has the potential to become that way.
Maybe not all psychological theories say that touching a client that personally, (holding hands) especially when they have admitted a romantic erotic tranference, say it is going down the slippery slope, but most do say it is not recommended. Many theories don't believe in any kind out physical touch, which I don't agree with, but when there is erotic transference or counter-tranference, it should be avoided.
I think it is fine if one doesn't want to hear this, or agree, but we should all treat each other with respect regarding our own views. Taking sides and getting all offended really isn't helpful at all, except to take attention away from the issue to begin with.

[

I am not 'in love" with my T, lol. I am in love with my husband. I have loving feelings towards my T, as well as sexual transference, and tons of other feelings.

The way that you described my session is in your words, Happy-- not mine. You wrote, "He held your hands, looked into your eyes, and created a special email." You make it sound like a romance novel, lol.

Sorry I paraphrased all of that together, but to be perfectly honest, reading your posts about your T does seem like a harlequin romance novel. I don't believe you are doing anything wrong, but I do believe that your T needs to be extra careful with his touching you.

When you say this, He looks into my eyes because... um, pretty much any therapist witih half a brain makes eye contact.

I know eye contact is important but that is not exactly what I am talking about. I wish I knew how to search archives, because I could show your comments about discribing the way your T looked at you, it was more than just him looking at you . And the comment about a T with half a brain, isn't very respectful to T's everywhere. Do you truly not understand what I am talking about? There is a difference between eye contact and him looking into your eyes like discribe in your past posts. Then again, I don't blame you for what you feel, it is perfectly natural.

There are other ways to ground a client that doesn't involve direct physical contact with the T. In fact it is better that a client learns to ground themselves, because your T will not always be with you 24/7.

I am just wondering why he needed to create a special account just for you? Couldn't he just have you send your emails to his regular account like all his other clients? I am also a writer/poet, and I share with my T my posts on here, poems, etc. But I have a blog he can read anytime or I bring in things for him to read. But I don't require a direct contact with him to share my things.

I do believe in the healing of touch, but like you have expressed, you have to be careful of who and what the circumstances are. My T often pats me on the back as I am leaving, but I truly know he cares without him touching me at all.
I could be wrong, but has your erotic tranference weakened or become more stronger in the last few months? It could be with the result of your T 's actions or not.
If I had a client who I knew has erotic tranference, I would really hesitate to hold their hands for longer than a handshake, because those, like hugs can be confusing to the relationship.
Pink,
I am sorry if I am upsetting you, I really am trying to respect your feelings, I do care and worry about you. I don't want to see you become hurt like so many people I know. I truly hope you are right about your T, and I hope he keeps his boundaries with you. But as you know people are not perfect, especially T's, and things can happen. That is all I really want to say, be careful please.

Sorry to quote me own post, mateys.....

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There are many many types of therapies, many types of therapists.

My therapy is not your therapy is not my therapy is not....

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happysappy said:

I am just wondering why he needed to create a special account just for you? Couldn't he just have you send your emails to his regular account like all his other clients? I am also a writer/poet, and I share with my T my posts on here, poems, etc. But I have a blog he can read anytime or I bring in things for him to read. But I don't require a direct contact with him to share my things.

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My T actually never did emails with clients before.... so he created an account so that I can email him cause I asked.

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I could be wrong, but has your erotic tranference weakened or become more stronger in the last few months? It could be with the result of your T 's actions or not.

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It actually decreased and then increased. I believe that one of the reasons I felt the increase is because of all of the additional connections/intimacies that I share with him-- so when those increase, sexual feelings increase because that has always been what is natural for me. As I analyze the feelings with him, I am beginning to learn that the strength of all of those other connections can exsist separate from a sexual component. However, certain connections can become sexually charged in any relationship-- a deep intellectual connection, for example.

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If I had a client who I knew has erotic tranference, I would really hesitate to hold their hands for longer than a handshake, because those, like hugs can be confusing to the relationship.

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I don't disagree with you-- but again, it is specific to the individual relationship. For me, it is perfectly fine. For someone else, it might be confusing and damaging. For me, a hug would be confusing and damaging. Holding hands is not.

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I am sorry if I am upsetting you, I really am trying to respect your feelings, I do care and worry about you. I don't want to see you become hurt like so many people I know. I truly hope you are right about your T, and I hope he keeps his boundaries with you. But as you know people are not perfect, especially T's, and things can happen. That is all I really want to say, be careful please.

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Thank you for expressing your reasons for your comments. I appreciate that. I have been with my T for three years now. Not ONE TIME have I never felt unsafe, strange (aside from the usual, but that's just personal, lol), or weirded out by ANYTHING he has done. He is honest, genuine, a real %#@&#! sometimes, but also very careful.

Ok - this is totally circling.
Pink has explained herself and her t very well.
Those people who are not paranoid and have read Pink's posts from the beginning should be able to tell that THIS IS FINE.

Can we drop this now please??? Find something else to comment on!

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Maybe not all psychological theories say that touching a client that personally, (holding hands) especially when they have admitted a romantic erotic tranference, say it is going down the slippery slope, but most do say it is not recommended. Many theories don't believe in any kind out physical touch, which I don't agree with, but when there is erotic transference or counter-tranference, it should be avoided.

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I just wanted to share my interpretation. When I first read this post, I was so impressed with pinksoil's T -- because he didn't change his behavior just because pinksoil expressed her feelings.

Trust is so vital to have real healing in a therapeutic relationship. If I told T something difficult, and then he suddenly said 'oop...you talked about sex, no more touch' -- I would feel punished. I would feel like my trust in T had been shaken.

Good therapy, IMHO, embraces the whole person -- nasty bits and all. And to have the T make sudden changes in a carefully created safe environment, would do more harm than good.

I appreciate the theories, but they are just that -- theoretical.

I hope that makes sense...

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Ibecause he didn't change his behavior just because pinksoil expressed her feelings.

Trust is so vital to have real healing in a therapeutic relationship. If I told T something difficult, and then he suddenly said 'oop...you talked about sex, no more touch' -- I would feel punished. I would feel like my trust in T had been shaken.

Good therapy, IMHO, embraces the whole person -- nasty bits and all. And to have the T make sudden changes in a carefully created safe environment, would do more harm than good.


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That's what impressed me about my T, too. When I admitted those feelings to him (which I'm sure he already knew, like, 2817 years ago... I was so afraid that I was going to scare him, or push him away... but he didn't take anything away from me. One of the whole points of working with erotic transference in therapy is to experience the whole "unconditional positive regard" thing... that no matter what you tell your T, no matter what feelings you bring up... your T is not going to go away, or take anything away from you. That is something a lot of haven't had in our upbringings... a person who is always there, no matter what. He asked me yesterday, if I felt anything has changed since last week, which was the deepest I ever went into discussing my feelings towards him. He was concerned that I may have perceived some changes in him. I appreciated that he was concerned for that.

Just a question, didn't the hand holding session happen after your session were you confided in him that you had those feelings, the same thing with the special email?
I am not sure why my posts are being taken so black and white. I believe in touch in therapy. I don't believe things should change that much when a client mentions an attraction. But if part of their prior therapy included things like hugging or hand holding, then they shouldn't be ripped away from the client, but the T needs to be extra careful. Because those physical affections can be taken the wrong way. To me, and everyone is different, hand holding can be more intimate than a friendly short hug.

After all isn't that kinda a first step as a child in the discovering the opposite sex. Holding hands were a big deal at one time in our lives. I think this is why it is unfortunate that T's are afraid to do any touch, including teachers, mentors, because these actions can be taken wrongly. I remember in school when it was okay to hug a teacher, but now they are afraid of doing so.

Okay, what if the client, like Pink, who has an intense erotic transference for their T, decided to go for it and jump in the T's lap or something. Is the T suppose to just let them do it, or should their be some boundaries against doing that? Some clients, maybe not Pink, would do that because they see the hand holding and hugs as acceptance of something more than a therapeutics relationship.
Boundary issues are not a type of psychological therapy, it relies on ethics and keeping both the therapist and client safe. Maybe Pink's T trust that that won't happen and Pink's trusts her T won't cross that line. But it can happen, it happens more than we know, most of this stuff doesn't get reported. I think it is good to be aware that some of this stuff can get kinda muddled in therapy.

I think we are having a good discussion here, I don't see the problem. Maybe some of you have heard Pink's story before, but I haven't. I think we all have the option of reading this thread or not. If Pink wants me to stop with my questions, I would respectfully do so.

I actually like talking theories with Pink, and what the mean to us. We are both going to be T in the near future, I think this is a good thing. I would love to write about what is going on in my therapy, and I would love to have responses to what others think. I find it to be very a very fruitful learning experience.
I don't see this as going in circles, I see this as going more in depth. I am understanding more about Pink's relationship more, see where she is coming from, and her thoughts.